View Poll Results: who won the debate tonight?

Voters
48. You may not vote on this poll
  • Vice President Biden

    30 62.50%
  • Congressman Ryan

    9 18.75%
  • Draw

    9 18.75%
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  1. #126
    Veteran cantthinkofanything's Avatar
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    the economy has been going downturn for many years since even before bush took office. the snow ball has been rolling & growing for so many years its beyond possible to melt it down in just a few years, obama is a terrible mother er who's basically done nothing right to this country but it isn't like you or anyone else could've done any better than he did imho, and romney could be even worse
    The problem is that the best solution would have been to quit printing money years ago and just let the economy fail and start over again. But no one wants to be the president in office when that happens. They just the rolling and further exacerbating the effects of the crash when it finally comes.

  2. #127
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    Paul Ryan Told 24 Myths In 40 Minutes

    Paul Ryan spoke for 40 of the 90 minutes during Thursday night’s vice presidential debate and managed to tell at least 24 myths during that time:

    1) “It took the president two weeks to acknowledge that [the Libya attack] was a terrorist attack.” Obama used the word “terrorism” to describe the killing of Americans the very next day at the Rose Garden. “No acts of terror [2] will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for,” Obama said in a Rose Garden statement on September 12.

    2) “The administration was blocking us every step of the way. Only because we had strong bipartisan support for these tough [Iran] sanctions were we able to overrule their objections and put them in spite of the administration.”
    Even the Israeli President has effusively praised [3] President Obama’s leadership on getting American and international sanctions on Iran, which have significantly slowed Iran’s progress [4].

    3) “Medicare and Social Security are going bankrupt. These are indisputable facts.”
    [T]he possibility of Medicare going bankrupt is — and historically has been — greatly exaggerated. In fact, if no changes are made, Medicare would still be able to meet 88 percent of its obligations in 2085 [5]. Social Security is fully funded for another two decades [6] and could pay 75 percent of its benefits thereafter. There is also an easy way [7] to ensure the program’s long-term solvency without large changes or cuts to benefits.

    4) “The vice president was in charge of overseeing this. $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups.”
    Multiple reviews, including an independent review of all Department Of Energy loan programs by Herb Allison –- finance chair for McCain for President 2008 –- have found no “pork” [8] in the stimulus’ funding of green projects, concluding that the loans were not steered to friends or family, as Ryan claims.

    5) “Was it a good idea to spend taxpayer dollars on electric cars in Finland, or on windmills in China?”
    As PolitiFact has pointed out [9], the money for electric cars in Finland did not come from the stimulus. Rather, it originated with the Energy Department’s Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program, which predated the Obama administration. The claim about “windmills in China” is also inaccurate [10].

    6) “When they see us putting – when they see us putting daylight between ourselves and our allies in Israel, that gives them encouragement.”
    The Israeli Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, told CNN, “President Obama is doing … more than anything [11] that I can remember in the past [in regard to our security].”

    7) “You see, if you reform these programs for my generation, people 54 and below, you can guarantee they don’t change for people in or near retirement.”
    Here is how the Romney/Ryan Medicare plan will affect current seniors [12]: 1) by repealing Obamacare, the 16 million seniors receiving preventive benefits without deductibles or co-pays and are saving $3.9 billion on prescription drugs will see a cost increase, 2) “premium support” will increase premiums for existing beneficiaries as private insurers lure healthier seniors out of the traditional Medicare program, 3) Romney/Ryan would also lower Medicaid spending significantly beginning next year, shifting federal spending to states and beneficiaries, and increasing costs for the 9 million Medicare recipients who are dependent on Medicaid.

    8) “Obamacare takes $716 billion from Medicare to spend on Obamacare.”
    Ryan is claiming that Obamacare siphons off $716 billion from Medicare, to the detriment of Medicare beneficiaries. In actuality, that money is saved primarily through reducing over-payments to insurance companies under Medicare Advantage, cutting waste fraud and abuse, and eliminating inefficiencies in the system [13]. Ryan’s budget plan keeps those same cuts, but directs them toward tax cuts for the rich and deficit reduction.

    9) “And then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors.”
    The Board, or IPAB is tasked with making binding recommendations to Congress for lowering health care spending, should Medicare costs exceed a target growth rate. Congress can accept the savings proposal or implement its own ideas through a super majority. The panel’s plan will modify payments to providers but it cannot “include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums…increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and co- payments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria” (Section 3403 [14] of the ACA). Relying on health care experts rather than politicians to control health care costs has previously attracted bipartisan support and even Ryan himself proposed two IPAB-like structures [15] in a 2009 health plan.

    10) “7.4 million seniors are projected to lose their current Medicare Advantage coverage they have. That’s a $3,200 benefit cut.”
    Enrollment is actually projected to increase by 11 percent in Medicare Advantage (MA) in 2013. Since the Affordable Care Act was enacted in 2010, Medicare Advantage premiums have decreased an average of 10 percent and enrollment in these plans has increased 28 percent [16].

    11) “This [Medicare premium support] plan that’s bipartisan. It’s a plan I put together with a prominent Democrat senator from Oregon.”
    Wyden not only voted against Ryan’s budget, he also called the idea that he supported it “nonsense [17].”

    12) “Eight out of 10 businesses, they file their taxes as individuals, not as corporations.” Far less than half [18] of the people affected by the expiration of the upper income tax cuts get any of their income at all from a small businesses. And those people could very well be receiving speaking fees or book royalties, which qualify as “small business income” but don’t have a direct impact on job creation. It’s actually hard to find a small business [19] who think that they will be hurt if the marginal tax rate on income earned above $250,000 per year is increased.

    13) “[Unemployment is rising] all around America.”
    In August, the unemployment rate dropped from a year before in 325 of 372 metro areas [20] surveyed by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    14) “The average tax rate on businesses in the industrialized world is 25 percent, and the president wants the top effective tax rate on successful small businesses to go above 40 percent.”
    The U.S. is raising historically low amounts of revenue [21] from the corporate income tax, and it already has the second lowest effective corporate tax rate [22] in the world. U.S. corporations are taxed less than their foreign rivals [23], and the U.S. effective corporate tax rate is low compared to other developed economies.

    15) “He’ll keep saying this $5 trillion plan, I suppose. It’s been discredited by six other studies.”
    The studies Ryan cites actually further prove [24] that Romney/Ryan would, in fact, have to raise taxes on the middle class if he were to keep his promise not to lose revenue with his tax rate reduction.

    16) “You can – you can cut tax rates by 20 percent and still preserve these important preferences for middle-class taxpayer. It is mathematically possible. It’s been done before. It’s precisely what we’re proposing.”
    If Romney/Ryan hope to provide tax relief to the middle class, then their $5 trillion tax cut would add to the deficit. There are not enough deductions in the tax code that primarily benefit rich people to make his math work. As the Tax Policy Center concluded [25], Romney’s plan can’t both exempt middle class families from tax cuts and remain revenue neutral. “He’s promised all these things and he can’t do them all. In order for him to cover the cost of his tax cut without adding to the deficit, he’d have to find a way to raise taxes on middle income people or people making less than $200,000 a year,” the Center found [26].

    17) “So they proposed a $478 billion cut to defense to begin with. Now we have another $500 billion cut to defense that’s lurking on the horizon. They insisted upon that cut being involved in the debt negotiations, and so we have a $1 trillion cut.”
    Ryan has frequently gotten in hot water for criticizing President Obama for the very same defense cuts that he voted for [27] in 2011.

    18) “If these cuts go through, our Navy will be the smallest – the smallest it has been since before World War I.”
    PolitiFact rated this claim as “Pants on Fire [28],” noting that “a wide range of experts told us it’s wrong to assume that a decline in the number of ships or aircraft automatically means a weaker military.”

    19) “Look at what they’re doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They’re infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals.”
    Religious ins utions haven’t been forced to “violate their conscience [29]” by paying for contraception. Houses of worship and other religious nonprofits that primarily employ and serve people of the same faith will be exempt from offering birth control.

    20) “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Try telling that to the 20 million people who are projected to lose their health insurance if Obamacare goes through or the 7-point million – 7.4 million seniors who are going to lose it.”
    The Affordable Care Act would actually expand health care coverage to 30 million Americans and all seniors will keep their guranteed Medicare benefits, despite Ryan’s fear mongering. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that very few people will have to enroll in new coverage.

    21) “We should not have called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people.”
    In March 2011, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton noted [30] that “many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer.” However, she did not endorse their view.

    22) “When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material — nuclear material to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five.”
    This is misleading and unproven. Iran now has enough fissile material, but has not yet enriched to the necessary level for a weapon. The Ins ute for Science and International Security says “it would take Iran more than two months to produce that amount if it started with 20%-grade uranium, and ‘several months’ to make enough for a bomb using low-enriched uranium. That would give the world community enough time [31] to detect the operation and organize a response, ISIS noted in June.”

    23) “[Iran is] racing toward a nuclear weapon.”
    Israeli and American intelligence officials aren’t so sure [32].

    24) “We don’t want to do is give our allies reason to trust us less [by announcing a withdrawal timeline for Afghanistan].”
    It’s unclear how our allies would trust us less since they too agreed to the timeline. As Biden pointed outed, “That’s a bizarre statement. .. Forty-nine of our allies — hear me — 49 of our allies signed on to this position.”

    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...ths-40-minutes

    anybody got the "myths" for Ass-kicking Joe?

  3. #128
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    the polls seem to disagree with you
    Do they? In order for any of these debates to matter, Mitt would need to start showing significant gains in swing states... so far: not happening.

  4. #129
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Well of course, there are always "some" but if you are saying that people (especially in this forum) by and large are impartial, that's naive. This forum is by and large left leaning. Young people are by and large left leaning. Sure there are exceptions, that's why I said "almost always" and not "always".
    I'll just disagree that by merely "leaning" you're automatically team blue or team red. IMO, that's a fairly myopic read.

    While there are a few staunch team players, there's also a good amount people that are not necessarily on either side of the fence but somewhere in-between.

  5. #130
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Do they? In order for any of these debates to matter, Mitt would need to start showing significant gains in swing states... so far: not happening.
    You might want to check the latest polls

  6. #131
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    A fact check by alternet????


  7. #132
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Yes, Biden cleared the very low bar set by his boss.

    Obama was weirdly passive -- Biden weirdly aggressive.

    At the end of the day, no one will care about this debate.

  8. #133
    Make a trade steal
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    Yes, Biden cleared the very low bar set by his boss.

    Obama was weirdly passive -- Biden weirdly aggressive.

    At the end of the day, no one will care about this debate.
    Looks like another unhappy Republican with the result of last night's debate.

  9. #134
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    A fact check by alternet????

    Which checked facts do you disagree with?

  10. #135
    you fail at trollin' me TheMACHINE's Avatar
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    Ryan was schooled. Biden countered every argument and left Ryan with nothing to say other than a defeated smirk.
    well..i laugh at what you just said.

    I win.

  11. #136
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Which checked facts do you disagree with?
    checked facts.

    I'm not even going to waste my time by itemizing.

  12. #137
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    checked facts.

    I'm not even going to waste my time by itemizing.
    Of course not. Make up your facts.

  13. #138
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    again, we lost. not one single question about the environment, no discussion on our trade deficit (which is what really funded our wars) and unfettered free trade or capital flow and a huge digression on an essentially insignificant topic (abortion).
    Last edited by rjv; 10-12-2012 at 11:47 AM.

  14. #139
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    VP Debate 2012: The Real Paul Ryan Is Bad for America

    For the second time in as many presidential elections, Joseph Biden got to debate a young, attractive Republican candidate who was demonstrably less qualified to to be president than I am to be chairman of the World Bank. Joseph Biden is a very lucky man. The Great Political Matchmaker in the Sky keeps handing him people who are trying — and failing — to fight above their weight class, and he keeps blowing through what can now legitimately be called the Bum of the Quadrennium Club.

    There is a deeply held Beltway myth of Paul Ryan, Man of Big Ideas, and it dies hard. But, if there is a just god in the universe, on Thursday night, it died a bloody death, was hurled into a pit, doused with quicklime, buried without ceremony, and the ground above it salted and strewn with garlic so that it never rises again. On foreign policy, Ryan occasionally rose, gasping, to the level of obvious neophyte. (He was more lost in Afghanistan than the Russian army ever was.) On domestic policy, his alleged wheelhouse, he was vague, untruthful, and he walked right into a haymaker he should have seen coming from a mile off, when he started bloviating about Biden's role in the "failed" stimulus program, only to have Biden slap him around with Ryan's own requests for stimulus money for his home district back in Wisconsin. He also made it quite clear that a Romney-Ryan White House will do everything it can to eliminate a woman's right to choose. This should make for some fine television commercials over the next few weeks.

    (A brief note here about Martha Raddatz, who's an old pal from our baby journo days in Boston. She did a fine job holding feet to the fire until her last three questions. She asked the two men to define their Catholicism only through the issue of abortion, which is not only insulting, but also limited a more interesting line of inquiry, given the open opposition of the Catholic bishops to the zombie-eyed granny-starving that is the hallmark of Ryan's career. And that closing if-you-were-a-tree question was simply embarrassing.)

    Moreover, the battering that Biden gave Ryan brought something into sharp relief that the Republican party has been fudging ever since Romney put the zombie-eyed granny-starver on the ticket — that, for his entire political career up to that point, on critical economic issues, Paul Ryan was an extremist even by the standards of the modern Republican party, which are considerably high indeed. He was for full privatization of Social Security. He was for the absolute elimination of the defined-benefit Medicare and Medicaid programs. Since being selected, it has become clear that the Romney people have forced him to soften these positions. (His stance on Medicare, for example, has evolved from Kill It Now to Arrange for Its Slow Death Later.) On Thursday night, Biden dragged out the old Paul Ryan — and, I would argue, the real Paul Ryan — and put him on display, and he made the new Paul Ryan own him. For one brief moment, he almost got Ryan to commit to Social Security privatization again. You could hear the screams from Romney headquarters all the way up the Charles to where I was watching.

    Ryan got hit on the stimulus. He looked ridiculous trying to defend his refusal to specify what "loopholes" he and Romney plan to close to make the magic arithmetic in their tax plan work; Raddatz treed him completely on the mortgage-interest deduction, on the elimination of which neither Ryan nor his running mate will commit to a position. He looked even more ridiculous when Biden started pounding him on his career-long quest to end Medicare and throw old people onto the tender mercies of large insurance companies. Biden kept saying "vouchers" until Ryan, at one point, said, "It's not a voucher. A voucher is a check you get in your mailbox."

    Wait. So if Paul Ryan gets his way, and Medicare as we know it gets eviscerated in favor of a pot full of offal on which Paul Ryan has slapped a label reading "Medicare," and my inadequate health-insurance allowance comes by e-mail, then it's not a "voucher" because it wasn't a check I got in the mail? And this is the issue on which Paul Ryan is supposed to be Genius on roller skates. This was humiliating enough, but when they started talking about war and peace, specifically in Afghanistan, Ryan looked like a toddler trying to cross the Hindu Kush.

    He stammered. He vanished into his syntax. He gave Biden the chance to ask him if he preferred that American soldiers carry the fighting in the worst parts of the country rather than Afghan troops, a devastating comeback for which Ryan had no answer. He kept rambling about maintaining the country's "credibility" until, if you closed your eyes, he started to sound like Robert McNamara in 1965. And when Raddatz asked him, deftly, what would be worse, another war in the Middle East or Iran with a nuclear bomb, he leaped in precipitously with the latter, while about 75 percent of the country, including the two other people on stage with him, looked at Ryan as though he'd lost his mind. He did, however, demonstrate a certain talent for pronouncing long foreign words that his briefers had taught him on Tuesday. Also, he explained winter.

    For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

    You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

    Lipstick.




    http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politic...#ixzz296UIq8pq

    Man of Ideas!

    And a Wonky Math Wizard who REFUSES to do math, not enough time!



  15. #140
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Looks like another unhappy Republican with the result of last night's debate.

    More like indifferent. I voted that it was a draw.

  16. #141
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    the encouraging thing is that more and more people are starting to realize that there is a minute separation between the parties and their candidates at this point. perhaps this will eventually lead to something more significant.

  17. #142
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    More like indifferent. I voted that it was a draw.
    and wonderfully overstating your boy's performance. He was badly exposed, and all you can do is hit Joe on "style" points, not substance.

  18. #143
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    I'll just disagree that by merely "leaning" you're automatically team blue or team red. IMO, that's a fairly myopic read.

    While there are a few staunch team players, there's also a good amount people that are not necessarily on either side of the fence but somewhere in-between.
    Although you scoff at it, it's fairly right down the middle every time. Left leaning people automatically disagree with right leaning people, and so polls that require you to chose one or the other often reflect the leanings, not so much the individual opinions on a particular non political subject (like "who won"). If you agree with everything Biden said, you think Biden won, couple that with the fact that you might find Ryan unsavory since he's a far right leaning candidate and that amplifies it. Sounds like profiling and perhaps it is but there's a reason that polls reflect the political views of the site as much as they reflect the individual views. It's the same reason that every state in the US other than Oklahoma thought that Miami would win the Finals. It's not about basketball knowledge, but about bias. That's hardly myopic. If anything, believing the opposite is myopic.

  19. #144
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    I haven't read anything on the debate, just listened to it for a bit. Sounded like both guys were ass holes and didn't answer anything.


    Also, when did fact checkers start offering opinions and "versions" of the facts?

  20. #145
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    FLASH: TV RATINGS FOR VP DEBATE DOWN SHARPLY... DEVELOPING...

    CBS 10.4 MILLION
    ABC 6.9 MILLION
    NBC 6.8 MILLION
    FOX 5.3 MILLION


    So who cares who won, no one watched to speak of.

  21. #146
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    It IS annoying - and it isn't helping Romney/Ryan NOT ever listing any specifics whatsoever when asked what deductions would be limited (actually I take that back - Romney mentioned a possible absolute cap on deductions). Ryan's diatribe about bi-partisan kumbaya moment rings hollow. A 20% across the board tax rate reduction WILL result in higher deficits. Specifics are required.

    That said, as far as I can tell, the entire platform that Obama/Biden is running on is: We're NOT Republicans, and we WILL raise taxes on "The Rich" (fluctuates between "People like me", "Millionaires and Billionaires", "People who make over $250,000", "People who make over $1,000,000" and "The 1%").

    All I know for SURE is these two parties have shared 100% responsibility for the situation we currently find ourselves in. They have both, at times, controlled everything, and they have each shared power from either the executive or legislative branches for well over a century. I have heard this same debate each election cycle for my entire voting life (first election '88) - NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS NEW, AND NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!

    For you Romney supporters - yes, the economy grew during Reagan, and Yes, he and Tipp did sit down and hammer out a tax reduction - but the spending cuts necessary to pay for it never happened; and the wealth that was created is certainly in part because of the big credit card the country was enjoying at unprecedented levels...

    And you Obama supporters....the dude has been a crappy President. Although I didn't vote for him I DID have high hopes for his administration. He has failed as a leader, and he IS running this time without any new ideas, and is ONLY bashing his opponent and that IS exactly what he said to beware of just four short years ago.

    I am afraid we ARE ed, and un able (at least for the time being).

    Now you go about arguing amongst yourselves about which man sucked less last night.

  22. #147
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    I am afraid we ARE ed, and un able (at least for the time being).

    .
    How dare you!!!

  23. #148
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Of course not. Make up your facts.
    lol alternet.borg

  24. #149
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Remember the lesbian assault, carving, and arson story that alternet carried? The one that dripped the enlightened progressive screed of hair-on-fire conservative intolerance?

    Remember when the ensuing investigation found she did it all to herself?

    Remember when alternet.borg carried the correction?

    Of course not. They didn't.

  25. #150
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    YOU LIE! PROVE that alternet DID NOT UPDATE THE STORY!

    /boutons

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