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Stone Cold Steve Austin?
If we are judging solely on fruits, then no one is a Christian. Even Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Paul likewise admitted that he did not what he wanted to do but instead what he hated.
Stone Cold Steve Austin?
Obviously no one is perfect...
It's a combination of one's fruits, the genuineness of one's repentance of the heart when he/she stumbles, and one's faith which gets measured whenever the "type" of tree (good or bad) that we represent is assessed...
Nope, just you.... since you're the one making that irrelevant assumption...
lol ones deliberate acts can be written off as stumbles.
your god knows the difference.
genuineness lol
Looks like I touched a nerve.Oh that's rich... a mocking non-believer like yourself TELLING me that the tenets of my faith cannot be used to gauge it's very adherents...
The bible explicitly describes what a Christian should be. And not to bust your bubble again (we've had that dance before), but Hitler was most definitely not a Christian (and he dabbled with occultistism to boot). The man was evil incarnate. No amount of lies or deceit can fully masquerade or suppress the weight of his evil deeds.
A "real" Christian according to the bible is known by their fruit... The passage from the Gospel of St. Matthew says it as plain as night and day:
"13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15) Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16) By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17) Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18) A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20) Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21) Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? 23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!''' Matthew 7:13-23
So what are the fruits by which you will 'know' who is a Christian?
"22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23) gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23
Joseph Stalin persecuted the Church and all other religious ins utions in order to "purge" the Soviet Union of religion. More than 40 million people lost their lives under his oppression. DEFINITELY not a DEIST.
etc...
etc...
etc...
The bible is far from consistent about what it says are "christian" values, so you will have to pardon me for some small amount of confusion.
How does one reconcile "kindness and gentleness" with:
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)It goes on.Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
How do you reconcile that (incomplete) list with loving kindness?
Is burning in for all eternity (infinite punishment) for a finite sin of not believing in God consistent with this loving-ness?
Is stoning people for their sins consistent?
If you were a priest in the Bronze age, what better way to keep people in line than the threat of eternal punishment in the afterlife?
Last edited by RandomGuy; 11-13-2012 at 11:30 AM.
Don't try to shed the OT, either. That would piss Jesus off.
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)Representing Jesus means hewing to the laws of Moses, that outlines the death penalty for a host of things, among which are that non-believers are to be put to the sword."Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.
f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party
Hitler and the Pope
g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.
Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book led: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)
h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all sexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to cons ute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism
"God is with us" worn by German soldiers and SS.
Seems pretty clear to me that they thought they were doing the Lord's work.
You say they weren't, they say they were.
You don't get to disown them simply because you find them inconvenient for your worldview, sorry.
Guinnesses ftw
i was using phenoms spelling. didn't want to disrespect.
its all good for the germans.
"whats that, god, it was wrong? sorry, just stumbled. lov ya"
I just want a Guiness. Yes, at 10 a.m,. lol
i thought he was talking about beer.
May your Thanksgiving dinner be less awkward than Patraeus'.
Indeed.
Good thing we had people like Tomas de Torqemada to keep the heretics from running rampant.
I will spare y'all from the rather nasty descriptions of how he convinced people to believe in Jesus.
Again, a man very firmly self-identified as a Christian.
How do I tell the difference between "real" and "not real" again?
What is the metric? To me, it seems to be "someone who makes me feel good about being a Christian", however one might rationalize it with a selective reading of bible passages.
Crime is dropping.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/06...-straight-year
What you are doing right here is exactly what he is talking about btw.
You want your idea to be true so you insert it for the truth when objective reality says crime is not decreasing. And the whole 'legitimate' birth thing is adorable. Single mothers are s right? Illegitimate childbearing S!!!
If it was "pretty apparent" it would be a lot easier to prove, IMO.
One could, for example, use that data to make the case that providing single mothers with social services and safety nets is responsible for that, by mitigating the worst effects of poverty.
There is also an argument to be made about the existence of "sinking education results".
Prove that "illegitimate births" are going up.
Then, give me a solution, and have that solution sketched out in terms of costs and benefits.
I know teen pregnancies are down overall. This strongly suggests to me that this one part, at least, is factually incorrect.
You want me to be in your political party, I'm on board, so let's get to at least identifying real problems, because I would hate to spend time and effort on non-real problems.
:facepalm
Darrin read the axis and legend of that graph and think about it.
I'll give a hint: the vertical axis says 'percentage.'
That's a grap of 'darkie is taking over the world.'
Damn.
A true liberal at work.
My point was to illustrate a liberal version of group think; and you go and find one (at least to you) fact from my quick rant to discredit the entire thing. Certainly wouldn't want to consider the actual premise of my post; that liberals wouldn't even consider looking at certain government programs as being bad for the very people they were designed to help. Thanks for helping me make my point.
Also, you posted about "violent crime". My quote was "crime". (I didn't include the number of chronically poor currently locked in prison as unproductive wards of the state; but I could have)
Illegitimate children, study upon study have shown, are at a disadvantage for success later in life. I sis not make a moral judgement at all, but a societal one. Society, and children themselves, would do better to have less illegitimacy.
Again, thank you for helping to illustrate my point.
and;
GFY for making assumptions about my views, and interjecting your knee-jerk self into a reasonable discussion RG and I were having.
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