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  1. #26
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    Is Pakistan the only place we are illegally bombing? Come on now. Somalia, Yemen, Lybia, etc. Not to mention civilian numbers seem lower now because Obama has now covered it up by calling anyone 18 and up as "militants", with no proof. Just because they are 18. that will lower the number wouldn't it?

    Obama even tried covering up and lying about the 21 women and 14 children he killed in his first strike in Yemen.

    Jeremy Scahill reported on this






    Not to mention Obama ran on ending these types of policies..

  2. #27
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    OBAMA appealed that decision within 24 hours.
    Because the entire premise of the decision was wrong and not well thought out...


    As a preliminary matter, the decision’s entire premise is factually wrong. Judge Forrest simply ignores a wide body of D.C. Circuit case law that makes her conclusion untenable. This is not to say that she is bound by D.C. Circuit precedent. She isn’t. But what the D.C. Circuit has done in the detention space is an important piece of the factual landscape as to the state of the law she is interpreting. To ignore it—as she mostly does—and misstate it—as she does when she’s not ignoring it—creates a fundamental factual error regarding the change that Section 1021 of the NDAA actually brought about.

    Judge Forrest’s basic argument is that the NDAA did not—as it purports—merely codify and reaffirm the detention authority in the AUMF but expanded it and expanded it in a fashion that is uncons utionally vague as to mere supporters of enemy forces. Her evidence of this is differences in the statutory texts, which are real, and a purported reading of the NDAA’s legislative history. Having watched the NDAA’s legislative history as closely as anyone—indeed having played some role in it—I can say flatly that there is almost nothing true about her account of how and why this law developed. This is the kind of judicial legislative history, in fact, that makes one get in touch with one’s inner Scalia. But let’s put that issue aside. The far bigger problem is that she almost completely ignores the D.C. Circuit’s history of interpretation of the AUMF in the detention context. And the D.C. Circuit’s work is important because the AUMF that Congress was legislating against when it wrote the NDAA was not the plain text of the AUMF itself. It was the AUMF as interpreted by the D.C. Circuit in roughly a dozen habeas cases. And to put the matter simply, support of enemy forces has been part of this interpretation of the AUMF’s detention authority from the beginning.

    Judge Forrest acknowledges at one point very late in the game (see pp. 106-107) that the D.C. Circuit in Al-Bihani seemed to allow detention on the basis of support. But she pretends that this is merely an interpretation of the Military Commissions Act, not the AUMF itself:

    In Al-Bihani, the D.C. Circuit . . . found . . . that the 2006 and 2009 MCAs provided for military detention of those individuals who “purposefully and materially supported” enemy belligerents of the United States or its coalition partners (the MCAs are not, however, statutes authorizing the use of military force). At the August hearing in this action, the Government stated that the MCA plays no role in the case before this Court. This Court agrees: the phrase “materially supported” as used in Al-Bihani does not shed light on the interpretation of “substantial support,” as used in § 1021(b)(2). Moreover, even in the MCA there is a requirement that the “material support” be purposeful. Notably, § 1021(b)(2) does not require that the conduct which could subject an individual to detention be “knowing” or “purposeful.”

    This is dead wrong. The D.C. Circuit’s invocation of the MCA in Al-Bihani occurs merely as a means of informing its interpretation of the AUMF, not as a standalone detention authority. Here’s what the D.C. Circuit actually said:

    The AUMF authorizes the President to “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons.” AUMF § 2(a). The Supreme Court in Hamdi ruled that “necessary and appropriate force” includes the power to detain combatants subject to such force. 542 U.S. at 519. Congress, in the 2006 MCA, provided guidance on the class of persons subject to detention under the AUMF by defining “unlawful enemy combatants” who can be tried by military commission. 2006 MCA sec. 3, § 948a(1). The 2006 MCA authorized the trial of an individual who “engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces).” Id. § 948a(1)(A)(i). In 2009, Congress enacted a new version of the MCA with a new definition that authorized the trial of “unprivileged enemy belligerents,” a class of persons that includes those who “purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.” Military Commissions Act of 2009 (2009 MCA) sec. 1802, §§ 948a(7), 948b(a), 948c, Pub. L. No. 111-84, . XVIII, 123 Stat. 2190, 2575–76. The provisions of the 2006 and 2009 MCAs are illuminating in this case because the government’s detention authority logically covers a category of persons no narrower than is covered by its military commission authority. Detention authority in fact sweeps wider, also extending at least to traditional P.O.W.s, see id. § 948a(6), and arguably to other categories of persons. But for this case, it is enough to recognize that any person subject to a military commission trial is also subject to detention, and that category of persons includes those who are part of forces associated with Al Qaeda or the Taliban or those who purposefully and materially support such forces in hostilities against U.S. Coalition partners (emphasis added).

    This interpretation received a fair bit of criticism, including from Steve, as the D.C. Circuit incorporated it into its later cases. But it received criticism as an interpretation of the AUMF–which it plainly was. So put simply, Judge Forrest’s entire opinion hinges on the idea that the NDAA expanded the AUMF detention authority, yet she never once states honestly the D.C. Circuit law extant at the time of its passage—law which unambiguously supports the government’s contention that the NDAA affected little or no substantive change in the AUMF detention power. (In fact, to the extent the NDAA brought about any change, it was a change limiting detention authority by clarifying that it is, in fact, subject to the laws of war, as Steve and Marty Lederman explained in this post. But that’s a story for another day.)

    Second, Judge Forrest is also deeply confused about the applicability of the laws of war to detention authority under U.S. domestic law. She does actually does spend a great deal of time talking about Al-Bihani, just not about the part of it that really matters to the NDAA. She fixates instead on the panel majority’s determination that the laws of war do not govern detentions because they are not part of U.S. domestic law. Why exactly she thinks this point is relevant I’m not quite sure. She seems to think that the laws of war are vaguer and more permissive than the AUMF—precisely the opposite of the Al-Bihani panel’s assumption that the laws of war would impose additional constraints. But never mind. Someone needs to tell Judge Forrest that the D.C. Circuit, in its famous non-en-banc en-banc repudiated that aspect of the panel decision denying the applicability of the laws of war and has since assumed that the laws of war do inform detention authority under the AUMF. In other words, Judge Forrest ignores—indeed misrepresents—Al-Bihani on the key matter to which it is surpassingly relevant, and she fixates on an aspect of the opinion that is far less relevant and that, in any case, is no longer good law.

    Having made these very basic errors—at very great length—Judge Forrest then issues her injunction. But for its text, we might treat her opinion as a form of comic performance art.
    http://www.lawfareblog.com/2012/09/i...medium=twitter

  3. #28
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    So when did Bush types of crimes suddenly become ok, 2008? How convenient.
    When did Obama start proactive invasions and occupations?

  4. #29
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Somalia
    2 credible attacks

  5. #30
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Is Pakistan the only place we are illegally bombing? Come on now. Somalia, Yemen, Lybia, etc. Not to mention civilian numbers seem lower now because Obama has now covered it up by calling anyone 18 and up as "militants", with no proof. Just because they are 18. that will lower the number wouldn't it?

    Obama even tried covering up and lying about the 21 women and 14 children he killed in his first strike in Yemen.

    Jeremy Scahill reported on this






    Not to mention Obama ran on ending these types of policies..
    HuffPo fails to show the Lt who confronted Scahills logic, he parralled it to FDRs killing French

    ...citizens on the lead up to D-Day...Scahill called FDR a murderer too..

    The LT also said historically no other president has had to live up to the standards of the use of force Obama has been had to live up to.

    Every president that has ever sent US troops into a conflict can be classified as a "murderer".

    All Congresses that have appropriated funds for raising a military can be classified as "accessories to murder".

    Anyone who has ever worn the uniform of the US military can be classified as "paid assassins'.

    Every weapon manufactured, from the most basic bullet on up, are nothing more than "murder weapons".

    Your tax dollars that pays for all of this stuff, well that makes us all guilty of "conspiracy to commit murder".

    And most of all, the fact that we have an industry that facilitates all of this and a society that condones it makes America itself "the greatest mass murderer the world has ever known".

    Why did Scahill he hold back when he was on a roll?

  6. #31
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    When did Obama start proactive invasions and occupations?
    30,000 troop surge in Afghanistan, expansion of the illegal drone program, bombing 6 countries in only 4 years versus war criminal Bush bombing only 4 in 8 years. Bombing Lybia, all without any declaration of war. I respect you man, you are one of my favorite posters, honestly, but there is no way you can be this blind on Obama. Just because you are on the left (as am I), doesn't mean you have to defend him when he is clearly going above and beyond to do Bush's work. There is no question about it.

    And on NDAA, Judge Forrest ruled it as Uncons utional and that's exactly what it is. You can't have it both ways, on one end you say he had no choice in signing it (which he did), and then the judge strips the provision and he then appeals it and then you defend that too? lol Come on. You are going to really act like he isn't going after whistleblowers too? What difference is that than Bush and Plame-Gate on attacking heroes?

    And you, like me, do not accept the "official" story of 9/11. Doesn't Obama have a responsibility to launch an investigation? Why not hold him accountable for finding out the truth? He's a part of the establishment. He doesn't give a damn about you, me or anyone except the powerful elite that put him there. MLK is rolling in his grave at Obama's murderous actions.

    It's ok, you can admit a Democrat is an evil corrupt lying piece of shyt. I can admit it. And I'm still liberal.

  7. #32
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    And why do you keep ignoring that Obama promised to end all this ?

  8. #33
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    30,000 troop surge in Afghanistan
    and brought all combat troops home from Iraq...

  9. #34
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    And on NDAA, Judge Forrest ruled it as Uncons utional and that's exactly what it is. You can't have it both ways, on one end you say he had no choice in signing it (which he did), and then the judge strips the provision and he then appeals it and then you defend that too? lol Come on. You are going to really act like he isn't going after whistleblowers too? What difference is that than Bush and Plame-Gate on attacking heroes?
    Read what I posted, it was a bad ruling...NDAA did not expand anything which was not already authorized...

  10. #35
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    nd you, like me, do not accept the "official" story of 9/11. Doesn't Obama have a responsibility to launch an investigation? Why not hold him accountable for finding out the truth? He's a part of the establishment. He doesn't give a damn about you, me or anyone except the powerful elite that put him there. MLK is rolling in his grave at Obama's murderous actions.
    I don't accept the official story of 911, but don't make the mistake of associating me with Alex Jones type crazy...I think the government was negligent in preventing 911 not the perpetrators of 911

  11. #36
    Board Man Comes Home Clipper Nation's Avatar
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    It's ok, you can admit a Democrat is an evil corrupt lying piece of shyt. I can admit it. And I'm still liberal.
    But I thought all leftists are hypocrites and you were a real Libertarian leader?


  12. #37
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Read what I posted, it was a bad ruling...NDAA did not expand anything which was not already authorized...
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...highlight=NDAA

  13. #38
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    I don't accept the official story of 911, but don't make the mistake of associating me with Alex Jones type crazy...I think the government was negligent in preventing 911 not the perpetrators of 911
    Does the official story claim that the government wasn't negligent?

  14. #39
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Does the official story claim that the government wasn't negligent?
    Not to the extent that it became criminal....there was criminal negligence on the part of the Bush Administration...yet no one was ever prosecuted or even reprimanded much...many got promotions...

  15. #40
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    OK, this guy was jailed for releasing Valarie Plames name...

    I'm sorry, not Valarie, but two other names he released who were undercover operatives...

  16. #41
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Come on Whinehole....Obama codified what Congress had long codified anyway....they had the votes to override his veto...why aren't these (mostly) GOP Senators and House members being held to the same fire many here hold Obama's too? It a Witch hunt that's why...

  17. #42
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    OK, this guy was jailed for releasing Valarie Plames name...

    I'm sorry, not Valarie, but two other names he released who were undercover operatives...
    That was nothing...Plame had the goods on the Bush Administration's WMD facade

    "Mushroom clouds"

    LOL She had to be outed...

  18. #43
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    That was nothing...Plame had the goods on the Bush Administration's WMD facade

    "Mushroom clouds"

    LOL She had to be outed...
    If you say so. Thing is, nobody is claiming she was still undercover. Even the Young Turks say the two names this guy outed were undercover, and they didn't say it as in past tense.

    That can get people killed...

    That goes beyond whistle blowing. What he did was clearly criminal.

  19. #44
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    Not to the extent that it became criminal....there was criminal negligence on the part of the Bush Administration...yet no one was ever prosecuted or even reprimanded much...many got promotions...
    The official story does defend The Bush Administration; it states what happened. You can draw your own conclusions from it. There is no need to "question" it if all you want to do is assign blame.

  20. #45
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I don't accept the official story of 911, but don't make the mistake of associating me with Alex Jones type crazy...
    Well, what type of crazy are you?

    Shall I bump your thread?

  21. #46
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Come on Whinehole....Obama codified what Congress had long codified anyway....they had the votes to override his veto...why aren't these (mostly) GOP Senators and House members being held to the same fire many here hold Obama's too? It a Witch hunt that's why...
    Obama signed it. He could have vetoed it, but he didn't. I wonder why not.

  22. #47
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Oh, and cite the codification, please.

  23. #48
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    thread tl;dr

    If this is about unveiling a CIA operative, him. These aren't hall monitors.

  24. #49
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    Obama loves drones. Bush loved waterboarding.

  25. #50
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Wow, Dan. I figured you wouldn't stoop to that level.
    SA210 has his finger on the ignore button...

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