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Well that was a fun meltdown, you outdid yourself againambchang is predictable.
Ok, let's just for a second exclude what his "team" did and explain why his #'s almost always went down when he got to the postseason (as the #1 guy)? Your argument is that it's a team game and he never did b/c his team sucked. That still doesn't explain HIS declining #'s in the playoffs. Kobe picked up his play when he was by himself. LeBron picked up his play. If you wanna go down this road I can probably find a dozen more examples of great players elevating their game in the playoffs. Why did Robinson the bed when his team needed him?favorite subject to talk about) when comparing them. "Kobe's a poisonous teammate!". That may be so, but he's never alienated one of the best players on his team through god-mongering.
Well that was a fun meltdown, you outdid yourself again
Last edited by StrengthAndHonor; 02-13-2013 at 05:00 PM.
There are a lot of respected writers with credentials who has been connected with the game far longer than you. None of them in their right state of mind will put Malone over Duncan and Shaq. Its OK to have an opinion, but when you start calling people out because they don't agree with you then it becomes hilarious. Especially since you don't have any irrefutable evidences other than your favorite "Ive seen him play" statement.
Because of his penchant for choking in big playoff games/series. If a team figures out how to take Parker out of his comfort zone, he implodes.
There's been countless times when the Spurs needed a 25 point or more game from him and he responds with one of those 18 points on 7-19 shooting affairs. I appreciate his contributions over the years, but he has never willed the Spurs to a victory in a playoff series against a top team since becoming the "man." And no, '07 doesn't count. Spurs could've sent out Speedy Claxton and still beat the Cavs in 6.
parker was never the right material to make a franchise player to begin with. he only became the "man" because tim and manu were aging, and when it comes to the real tough matches your still gonna need tim and manu to step up despite them being old. tony is a legit supporting piece on a contender but he's simply not the guy to build your team around imho, and i don't think he has a higher ceiling than gary neal.
Right on.
Very tough choice. Both streaks are incredible. Gun to my head, I have to take Kobe's streak. Scoring 60 points twice in the span of a week is crazy, especially for a shooting guard. Kobe also played on a far worse team, which means defenses were keying in on him during this stretch. Lebron has D-Wade, who has been playing very well lately. Chris Bosh had a monster game during this stretch as well. With teammates like that, Lebron gets better looks than Kobe did during his run.
You didn't know Kobe averaged 22 points a game in a 7 game series when he had a team? I am sure I wrote that down at least once in this thread, to which you have posted and responded. Or Hakeem with 18.5 ppg, or KAJ w 22.3 ppg. You mean you responded to points you haven't read and have to have me rehash the Same stuff over and over again?
You didn't know Robinson had a great playoffs in his first two years when he had a point guard who has an outside shot?
Oh . I am typing out real basketball arguments so I must be having a meltdown. I should be more like you, not write anything of substance and not read anything.
Last edited by ambchang; 02-14-2013 at 07:48 AM.
Look, someone with nothing to add and is supporting his troll!
Hmmm. If I remembered correctly, I put up my rankings, and you called them " ing stupid". I am not sure how it was me calling you out and not the other way around. And yes, please ignore all the MVP's, offensive rebounds, incredible stats and accomplishments I have posted in the previous post. I mean. Do you and dd specialize in not reading posts and use the "you never had any arguments" argument?
Seriously. Are both of you comprehensively re ed? Do both of you suffer from some kind of hereditary disease that does not allow you to remember things you wrote a few weeks ago? I really am not getting it.
EDIT: LOL, me calling you out for disagreeing ...
Now that you are getting your ass grilled to the ground, you go allBut you are mean to me
And how would you know those "respected writers" with credentials were connected with the game far longer than me? Do you know those writers? Do you know what it takes to be a writer? Especially ones in sports?
And what irrefutable evidence? These are sports rankings. What irrefutable evidence do you have of ranking Duncan and Shaq over Malone? For that matter, Jordan over Malone?
BTW, "I have seen him play" statement is much more convincing that "that's ing stupid" and "I haven't seen him play".
Last edited by ambchang; 02-14-2013 at 11:18 AM.
And you would know what about nam, may I ask? Do you want to delve into another subject you are clueless on?
The more I read your takes, the stupider they become.
Shaq and Duncan both had longer peaks AND longevity than Malone?
Malone played 23 seasons in the league, he averaged 20+ ppg and 11+ rpg for 11 straight seasons, and then another season with 19/10. He had a peak season of 31ppg and 15rpg, of which neither Shaq nor Duncan ever approached. He was All-NBA 8 years straight when he had to go up against Kareem and Bill Walton during his youth, and then Hakeem and Ewing at the end of his career. He beat out KAJ, one of the top 5, if not top 3 best players in the league for All-NBA 1st team 4 times during their respective primes.
Shaq had 10 seasons of 20/11 (non consecutive, broken twice), never averaged over 30 ppg, never averaged over14 rpg (Malone did it 6 times).
Duncan had 8 straight seasons of 20/11 (another few seasons of 18/11, 19/10), never averaged over 30 ppg, never averaged over 13rpg.
Of course there are cases where pace and era comes into play, but at least statistically, Malone was a beast. The only thing that held him back was that he had to go up against teams that features (Magic + Kareem + Worthy), and (Bird + McHale + Parish).
Last edited by ambchang; 02-14-2013 at 11:30 AM.
to follow up on that, i remember reading somewhere years ago that, early in his career, robinson treated basketball more like a job. it wasn't something that he loved to do, something that he would give anything for. thats not saying he didn't dedicate himself to the sport, but it wasn't the end-all-be-all that it is to a lot of the greats.
it wasn't until duncan came along, and he was moving towards the end of his career, that he developed the desire and passion for the game. by then his back was giving him problems, and he developed into more of a role player / defensive stopper that he ended his career as.
That desire and passion argument is bull . He was having the time of his life playing with Lucas.
Robinson is one of the rare athletes that would come out and publicly state that there are things more important than your job, and he is right. He sets his sights on his family and beliefs, rather than concentrate on himself and go on some juvenile quest to prove that he is an alpha male.
Nothing wrong wih that ... you could say David's priorities are in order and some of the more celebrated stars of his "era" Malone and Bird come to mind ... who had kids they ignored ...And if MJ's HOF speech is any indication, I dont thik he wins any father of the year awards either ...
I think some fans (myself included) get frustrated ....when an atheltic marvel like Robinson, Shaq or even Lebron before the last few years either dont take full advantage of the many gifts God (or nature) gave them ... or it appears we want the le more than they do. Im guessing many of us have played on SOME level and to be good enough to make it and NOT maximize it or not prioritizing a career that has a finte life-span ...draws ire.
Based on the crap people spew on here, David is PROBABLY (the work with his charities, his faith plus I have met him once or twice) a better human being and contributor to society than 99% of fans that post on message boards. But that doesnt change the fact if had Ducan or Kobe's drive he is probably a far greater player ... it's speculative but I saw some of the Dream Team archive video Besides MJ's dominance RObinson's athleticism is the NEXT thing that jumps off the screen ... the guy had GOAT potential (atheltically) do we at least agree on that? David could run like a SF, jump like SG strong as PF but with center height He had pretty good touch out to 15 feet ... his defense was vastly underrated (people usually think of Alonzo, Dikembe and HAkeem before David) and though not a great low post player with "skinny legs" ...he had almost anything you would want in an athlete ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-15-2013 at 12:43 PM.
Best athletes I have ever seen (bball) with my own eyes: (guys I saw play in person ...
1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. David
4. Hakeem
5. Skinny Shaq
Robinson was no doubt one of the best athlete in the history of the league, but to say that the Spurs won anything of note with him at the helm is due to lack of desire is just untrue.
Being the person that he is, Robinson would be professional in his work regardless of whether he "likes" it or not. He worked on his post up game, had that ugly little half-hook that he added to the arsenal, he played for 6 more seasons with a horribly bad back, he guarded an in prime Shaq during the twilight of his career when he had trouble walking, he gave it his all to the Spurs, and yet because he didn't say the right things, people treat him as not giving 100%.
Again, the Spurs never won anything because the teams were flawed, there's no secret behind it, and I am having trouble understanding why people have trouble understanding it. A dominant big man requires a PG to feed him the ball, and a bunch of outside shooters to spread the floor. Ideally, there would be another big beside him to do the dirty work. When Robinson had two of the three (his rookie year), he and the Spurs did well, when he doesn't (every other year), he and the Spurs doesn't do well.
Avery Johnson, despite his quickness and energy, is relatively easy to defend, leave him open and cut off his passing lanes, and he would become a non-factor. The fact that him making a 15-foot wide open jump shot is some kind of huge story shows you how bad an outside shooter he is. There is no one on the Spurs outside of Robinson who could create a shot. Elliott was very much a great finisher, but he has never been much of a creator, and the way to stop the Spurs is to crowd Robinson because none of the other guys can do anything about it.
Was there something he could improve upon? Sure, his low post game was rightly criticized throughout his career, but he was built more like a very tall SF than a C. Robinson would have been huge successful in today's NBA, but in the grind-it-out 75 point games 90's NBA? His offense could be cut off relatively easily with a collapsed defense.
The reason the league went with all this perimeter based offense in the 00s is because the league has diluted to a point where most teams can be easily shut down as they have only 1 main shot creator, and without rules to encourage passing and flow in the perimeters, as well as make life easier for lesser players out in the open, teams can just hack and bully their way on defense and win these ugly 75-69 contests. Robinson played in that ugly thug-ball era. When you look at the elite teams in those days, every one of them has more than 1 creator:
Bulls - Jordan, Pippen
Knicks - Ewing, Starks
Jazz - Stockton, Malone
Houston - Olajuwon/Drexler (it was mainly Olajuwon in 94, but they had historical 3 pt shooting)
Sonics - Payton/Kemp
Blazers - Drexler/Porter/Robinson
Suns - Barkley/KJ/Dumas when he wasn't high
The only team that does NOT have more than one creator, was the Spurs, and yet Robinson still led them to 55 wins every season.
Dont think he lacked ANY desire it just burned slower and smaller imho. I mean the guy was a great player just dont believe he maximized his talent. But he had some desire The guy was the POTY and wasa better college player than TIm, Shaq or Hakeem tbh ...though Duncan played in a much tougher conference. You could make a case that David at his peak was the vastly suprior regular season player. and yes Duncan had more help than David ... but David still performed below his own lofty standards when the playoffs rolled around ...while Tim mainatined his lebvel or elevated his game often times. Plenty of great players did not have the help Shaq, MJ etc had yet their numbers went up as they took on MORE responsibility. Whether it be due to being unselfish, christian or lacking instinct there is a reason he did not meet his regular season numbers in the playoffs and I dont think you can explain it ALL by shifting blame to his cast, when sometimes (TMAC for example, or HAkeem pre les) played better (but won less) without a strong PG or #2 option ...
Im on your side amb, to an extent .... I think David is vastly underrated ....even on a Spurs forum ... but you also seem to make a lot of excuses for him as well. Exucses you dont offer Kobe or other great players you don't admire ...
There are two ways of stopping a one-man team.
1) Let said player go off, and shut down the other players. Pistons did that vs. the Bulls in the late 80s, and most teams did that with Hakeem in the late 80s. There are two major reasons to choose this route, a) said player couldn't beat you by himself anyways, so you let him go off (T-Mac), or b) you can't shut down said player anyways with the players you have, so you concentrate on the other guys (MJ, Shaq for most of his prime). Hakeem was targeted to be shut down in the 90s playoffs, he shut down he did. When he had that monster series against Dallas in 88, he faced up against a team that was perimeter oriented with mostly James Donaldson in the middle. For Dallas, are you going to collapse your entire defense to leave McCray and Floyd wide open, or are you going to let Hakeem have his, and then shut down the other guys. The Mavs chose the later, and won. Not coincidentally, the only win came when Floyd went absolutely nuts and scored like 40 points.
In the 90's playoffs vs. the Lakers decided to collapse the middle and stop Hakeem. Not surprisingly, Floyd, Maxwell and even Buck Johnson played quite well the entire series. The only win in that series was when Hakeem was the FOURTH leading scorer on his team, which means that it required 3 other guys on the Rockets to beat the Lakers.
In the case of Robinson, it's different. He actually have his best games when outside shots are falling for his teammates, and the reason is simple, teams collapse on him, if his teammates make wide open shots, the opposition has to guard them, thus opening up the lane for Robinson to operate. Take the infamous 95 playoff series against Rockets for example, the Spurs shot 2/8 from 3 in Game 1 with Robinson going 5/17. Next game 4/18 on 3's, Spurs lost again with Robinson going 10/18, his teammates only has to shoot to open up the lane, they don't even have to score). Game 3, 9/19 from 3, Robinson was 10/15, then 4/14 and 6/16, 2/7 and 7/15 and finally 2/7 and 6/17. The Spurs doesn't even have to make a whole lot of three pointers, they just have to shoot so that the opposition has to guard them somewhat, but sometimes, that is too much to ask of them.
b) Another way to stop a 1-man team is to stop that one guy, and let the other guys beat you. You do that when you have a line up that would allow you to stop that one guy, or the other guys on that team is just utter trash. You saw that with those Robinson Spurs, you saw that with the Kobe 05 Lakers, and you saw that even with the Dirk Mavs in 07 vs. the Warriors. The Spurs were absolutely trash outside of Robinson, and unfortunately Robinson could be stopped when an entire team collapse on him. Again using the 95 playoffs, Robinson played very well against the Lakers the previous series, why? Because they had Elden Campbell in the middle instead of the dream, and slow defensive rotations. Does Robinson somehow decided to suck right in the next series? Of course not, it's because the Rockets had a fantastic defensive unit led by Hakeem and multiple double-teamers who can recover quickly to defend the perimeter. The Rockets were younger, faster, better coached, and Robinson got shut down.
I am sure I can explain away some reasons for certain players sucking if I watch their games enough times, but I don't. I do watch a lot of Spurs ball though.
Not saying what you wrote lacks merit ...but look at those shooting % in the halfcourt or the post, I get it they collapsed on defense ...
I just think a player or athlete of David's.caliber should still do better. But this another debate we can rest for a while ... Because tbh doesn't matter much to me. I think David is underrated but because other folks on here like him as a person and what he stands for overlook some of his flaws ...its human nature
Don't get me wrong, his game was most definitely flawed, and not built for the playoffs, he requires a LOT of room to operate. The back to the basket offensive games of, Barkley, McHale, Olajuwon and Shaq are all much better suited to the playoffs than in the regular season, and this made Robinson that much easier to stop. Robinson required a lot of room to operate with his face the basket game from 15 in. Doubling him from 12 to 15 feet and recovering to stop outside shooters is much easier than doubling Hakeem 5 feet from the basket and then recovering that extra 7 to 10 feet.
Robinson was, in many ways, very similar to Dirk Nowitzki, they are unconventional big men who requires a very specific team built around them to succeed in the playoffs. Dirk needs an inside presence and a secondary scorer to give him room to operate, Robinson requires a PG to feed him the ball and shooters to open up the lanes for him. Dirk had it, and won a championship. Robinson never got his.
I'll take the Danny Jones streak, 20 0f 30 on threes over the first 4 games of the rodeo road trip.
AmbChang is a very underrated poster tbh
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