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I don't care what u say one game in THREE PLAYOFF APPEARANCES ...take away the Suns just one game!
mids with the goods, in fact, over the top goods.
But why are we talking about a fringe top 20 player in this thread? I was talking about top 10 (OK, top 11) all-time right here, there is no place for the leader in missed FGs, and players who can't get into the playoffs with a $100M payroll until he got injured, we are talking about the best of the best.
I would imagine a guy with the handle of Lkrfan would come in and defend the best player ever to play for his/her franchise, the great KAJ.
I don't care what u say one game in THREE PLAYOFF APPEARANCES ...take away the Suns just one game!
When did Lamar ever get any MVP votes how many asg appearances coaches not fans does Marion have over Odom? LOL still talkin Kobe and he is irrelevant for 9 months
He went through the Suns (healthy), Spurs (defensive juggernaut), and Mavs (real 06 champions). Can't blame him for that.
Spin dat however you want in fact I don't even care if u say his the MVP of the 2010 Finals but there is no valid excuse for 0-12 ...Memphis is a region I cover and trust me they loved Pau but they know he shrinks from the big moment at times ...just glad we got the best out of him while we could. Great player I hope he makes HOF but he is not what u make him out to be ...wish he was tbh.
You a smart gorilla amb but sometimes u r such the excuse MAKER ...Kobe lost to a juggernaut Spurs team in Duncans prime, a perfect storm Pistons and Celts team in the Finals ...
If the Lakers rebound before Tim Thomas dagger ... Kobe beats Suns. See what I did there? I don't make excuses or play "what if" ...we lost. But in every case Kobe WON ONE Game!!!!
Last edited by Killakobe81; 04-17-2013 at 01:20 PM.
Nobody expected Pau to beat the Suns, Mavs or Spurs.
Everybody expected the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 04 (as they didn't count on Kobe chucking the Lakers out of the series), nobody expected Kobe to stop shooting to send a message in a Game 7, most people expected the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 08, and everybody expected the Lakers to have a deep playoff run and dominate the West with OKC this year.
Those are the differences.
One game?! R u kidding me? I hope u don't set such low standards for yourself or loved ones. Look I don't play the excuse game if so then Kobe is blameless for missing the playoffs in his prime he was injured and his team was trash. But he STILL misised. If u r the star player that is how IT WORKS ya dig?
I don't really understand your obsession with winning one game. What does it do? The Grizzlies were a flawed team, and they didn't have one of the best coaches in league history. The fact that they managed to make the playoffs in the loaded Western Conference with such as flawed team is an accomplishment in itself.
That team is actually very similar to the mid/late 90's Cavs, a bunch of scrapy hard-nosed defenders, and those Cavs managed to win only 1 game in 3 playoff appearances (that one game came against the Knicks, who themselves would have lost to any of the three teams the mighty Pau was swept by), so why would anyone expect the Grizzlies to win anything against those three teams?
But enough about Pau and Kobe, neither are top 10 players in the league's history, and concentrate on the issue at hand, KAJ.
My central point actually has nothing to do with Kobe. I'm addressing how Kobe fans typically downplay his supporting cast in '06 and prop up that Suns team as some kind of stacked all-star team when they were anything but. All for the sake of inflating Kobe's stature. All things considered, the rosters were fairly equal in that series.
Furthermore on that point, who cares if Kobe's supporting cast were no-names and never went on to NBA fame after the Lakers (Speedy Claxton was a no-name, and he stepped up in Game 6 of the '03 Finals and helped Duncan seal the deal). The Laker role players played decently enough in that particular series to give the Lakers a shot, so the stupid myth that Kobe had no help is just that: a myth.
Its so stupid for lakerfan to bring up how Gasol 'didnt win a playoff game without lord Kobe', especially since their lord Kobe Bean won a whopping 3 playoff games without a dominant big man by his side. Not to mention the fact that their situations were completely different--Gasol had a team that had recently relocated and had never made the playoffs. Kobe took the second most storied franchise in NBA history and contributed to it hitting rock bottom for two years before Stern intervened. Gasol getting the Grizz to the playoffs was actually a success despite the sweeps, helped pave the way for todays Grizz. Meanwhile what Kobe did from 05-07 was a dark and forgettable era for the Lakers.
Thanks, you proved my point end thread.Its so stupid for lakerfan to bring up how Gasol 'didnt win a playoff game without lord Kobe', especially since their lord Kobe Bean won a whopping 3 playoff games without a dominant big man by his side. Not to mention the fact that their situations were completely different--Gasol had a team that had recently relocated and had never made the playoffs. Kobe took the second most storied franchise in NBA history and contributed to it hitting rock bottom for two years before Stern intervened. Gasol getting the Grizz to the playoffs was actually a success despite the sweeps, helped pave the way for todays Grizz. Meanwhile what Kobe did from 05-07 was a dark and forgettable era for the Lakers.
Not sure where you were educated but 3>0 in fact 300% better ...
/Close thread.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 04-16-2013 at 03:58 PM.
I think you mean 3>0, not 3>1, but regardless, it has nothing to do with anything. They have different compe ion, they have different teammates, and the teams they played may or may not be in a slump during that span.
To me, getting out of the 1st round is getting out of the 1st round, whether you lost no games or 3 games doesn't matter. And to me, making the playoffs for all three seasons is definitely better than winning 3 meaningless games in the first round of the playoffs and not making the playoffs in one of them.
BTW, the close thread comment, again, we are talking about KAJ, can't believe all these supposed Laker fans did NOTHING to defend the greatest player in their franchise's history (along with Magic, of course).
Way to ignore the rest of the post.
It really boils down to the fact that what MVPau did with the Grizz was a success, regardless of the sweeps. What Kobe did from 05-07 was not. But I dont expect anything different from kobefans tbh...afterall yall think Kobe winning 5 with LA is greater than Duncan winning 4 in SA, simply because 5>4. Its funny how from 05-07 the situation Kobe was in is dissected by kobefan but for all the other years its just as simple as 5>4. Zealots tbh.
But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week?
As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.
LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...
As a supposed coach of team sports, I find it remarkable how you fail to understand the "win as a team, lose as a team" concept. Pau was not "0-12," the Grizzlies were. Kobe didn't "fail" to make the playoffs, the Lakers did.But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week?
As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.
LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...
If you're countertrolling and giving the haters who single out Kobe for his failures through 05-07 a taste of their own medicine, fair enough and well played. But I feel sorry for the kids you coach if you actually believe team success or lack thereof should be majority credited to the team's best player.
Ahhh.. but Parker only won 1 out of 4 possible FMVP, which means that it was more of a situational reason than because he was dominant. These things happens, like how Andrew Toney always killed the Celtics, or how Vin Baker for some reason always played well against David Robinson. Parker played well against Boobie Gibson.But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week?
As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.
LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...
As for KAJ, that's the area where I am struggling with, the memory of him being dominant is still etched in my brain. However, he "only" won a championship with some of the top PGs in the history of the league, and only won 2 out of 6 possible FMVP. You can argue 80 was an aberration because he was injured for the final game, and he was dominant throughout the entire playoffs up to that point, and you can argue 87 and 88 doesn't really count, because KAJ was way over the hill at that point, but fact remains he still won 2 out of 6 FMVP. To top it off, he missed the playoffs during his prime, twice. Once was due to injuries, and the other time was because of the weird NBA divisional crap that was since changed, but he still missed two playoffs during his prime. Which, to me, are huge marks against his legacy. I used to think he was the GOAT, even over MJ, but I am now reconsidering it.
In terms of the Pau argument, I am afraid you had number of wins and winshares mixed up. WS deals with how many wins a player is responsible for on his own team. The beautiful thing is, over a short series, there are many players who have a negative WS. Also, over a series, a player can have a huge dip in WS due to match ups and not. Pau, from 04 to 06, had WS of 8.1, 6.8 (injured, he had WS/48 similar to 06), and 12.0. These are very respectable numbers for someone who's supposed to be thrown under the bus. In fact, your hero had WS of 8.1, 15.3, and 13.0. Sure they are better than MVPau's, but we sans the Pau injured year, they are very close, and we are talking the absolute peak of Kobe's prime here. I have no problems saying Kobe > Pau from 04 to 07, none at all, because we saw the games, and the numbers reflected that, but it's not by a margin as large as Kobe fans indicated. In fact, in 2005, if Pau wasn't injured, he would have a significantly higher WS than Kobe, which is also known as the year Kobe missed the playoffs.
I also agree with what mids said, blaming the losses and playoffs on one single player is a horrible practice, but we know that Kobe is not good enough to haul a team to average with his presence during his absolute prime, but Pau was able to do that when he hasn't hit his prime yet.
Never said it was solely. But if you are the best player you get the lions share of the accolades and at close to and not equal parts of the blame. Magic had already won twice before plus once in college and that did not stop the Tragic Johnson talk ... Kareem struggled some, Worthy's pass was stolen Scott inconsistent but who got the most blame? Magic..That is the sports era I grew up in when people questioned great players such as Marino, Elway, Steve Young and MJ himself harshly until they rang. Or retired none of that they played in a stacked era bull or ..I used to defend Dan as a child but later learned
I wasn't confusing I don't give a about winshares tbh
See there you go with qualifying Kareem was a 1st 2nd or 4third option on 6 le teams. He won with different coaches and different support players. Kobe had same coach but also won with different bigs Pau is in question Kobe is not.
That's why I am starting to second guess my take on KAJ, I may have overrated him throughout his career. Also, it's not playing with a different player, it's playing with a different system and philosophy. KAJ played with the Big O and Magic, two of the greatest PGs the league has ever seen, both top 10 players (top 15 for sure). Was it that different playing with Magic as it was with the Big O? As for Kobe, he had the most dominant frontline in the league. If you put him on the 04 Pistons in place of Rip Hamilton, the Pistons may have still won if Kobe doesn't destroy their chemistry, but the team won because of the dominant frontlines, not because of Kobe.
As for WS, you apparent DO give a about it, because say the main player on the winning team gets all the accolades, and that is saying that a main player helps a championship wins, which is another way of looking at WS. The funny part is, Gasol led the Lakers in WS, and was responsible for both of the championships more (though only slightly more) than Kobe.
That's a media invention. "Magic falls short against Celtics" is a much sexier headline than "Lakers bench struggled in Finals."
However, the star player is definitely the most important "cog" in the machine, but he's still a cog, nonetheless. Just from a simple statistical standpoint, a star player is never more than 50% of the equation. Teams typically average around 100 points per game. A star player averages around 30. Teams typically average around 40 rebounds per game. A star bigman averages around 11-13. And so on.
Win shares attempt to quantify how many wins a player adds. For the sake of the argument, let's pretend the metric is accurate. Lebron James has a 19 mark this year, meaning without him the Heat would be 19 wins worse. The Heat have won 66 games this year. You do the math.
Sure, without Lebron James the Heat are a second round exit, but without them (specifically Wade and Bosh), Lebron doesn't win, either. As we saw in Cleveland.
1. Media or not Magic felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself. IF he were to console himself with winshares or insuliate himself with excuses like Amb gives PAu ...maybe he does not win.
2. Sure star players are important cogs but there is a price, a responsibilty/accountability that you have as the best player. I used to teach my better PG's that all the time. It is one of the most valid criticisms of Kobe ...(besides shot selection) IS that just because you can score easier than everyone else does not mean it is ALWAYS in your (team's) best interest to take that approach. I dont play Pyschologist but Kobe has battled against that impulse his whole career where he feels his shot even when the fo cus on defense is better than someone elses ..
3. Stats like winshares are horsecrap to a degree ... because using Lebron as an example no way they lose 19 more games. Heat have won games with 2 or 3 of their best players missing. But you could argue the things he does like making a hockey assist pass or drawing double or triple teams when he DOES play have such a HUGE impact on winning games and spreading a positive vibe on that team the he impacts that team even when he does not play
But again using your examples I dont need win shares to tell me any of that. Lebron is amazing especially last playoffs but without key contributions from Battier, Wade, Bosh to even Miller and Chalmers OKC has a legit shot at an upset or they lose to the Celts. Stats alone will show that those guys hit key buckets but without watching the game and seeing the momentum changes etc ...you lose some of that. But who got most of the blame in 2011 for their loss? Who got most of the praise in 2012 and rightfully so? Doesnt have to be THAT complicated. My problem with any stat they are ALMOST ALWAYS used as a weapon to argue what you already believe. People juke, cherry-pick stats just like non stat guys do when they argue thier side.
As for Amb Shaq was dominant, Pau, Bynum and Lamar effective and pretty efficient. But you confuse me when you give love to a guy like Moses (dominant) or the Celts front-line also dominant) but call a front-line with undersized, injury-prone or skinny front court bigss (Lamar Drew and PAu) dominat. Sure they were one of the better ones in a watered down era for big men but dominant? Nicca, please!! aS we discussed a few weeks back David RObinson much less KAreem would of dominated any of the two best bigs you can find of this era by themselves.
SO I get the deconstructing of Kobe ...your stats support your case ...whatever. I also dont need to tear down Pau, Drew Odom or even Shaq. All were all-stars at least and Shaq one of the most physical dominant players I have ever seen. But when a "dominant" big cant lead a playoff team to one win in 3 straight years you are NOT dominant. Lamar led a Heat team (Wade's rooke year IIRC) to ONE playoff win. All that filibustering still sounds like excuse making to me ...Pau very good, far from dominant.
But he can make a strong case tonight ...
Right. He'd be hiding under the covers with Wilt, West, Baylor, Worthy, et al. & we'd be under there with them instead of here raisin' & checkin' assholes.
& furthermore, if Magic hadn't set that compass for future generations we'd a been forced to take cover under the covers in June '10. But, Kobe had Magic's template and executed it. Ipso facto:::
Kobe: 5
the tired old bag Duncan: 4
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