Spurs Sign Manu Ginobili to 2 year/$14 Million Deal

[Mel_13]

, again you were getting caught on a portion while ignoring what I have been saying for days on the matter.

I was responding to your posts in this thread. I can't ignore what I haven't read.

[DPG21920]

So, they could have been if they a made another move that's there's no reason to believe that they would have made.

Gotcha.

Some of us think that those two things are not the same, but you go ahead and keep laying this at Manu's doorstep.

i suggested no such thing.

This statement "there's no reason to believe" when Bruno, timvp, myself and Chinook all thought it would definitely be a legit possibility at best alludes to the fact you don't believe what we say.

[Mel_13]

The Spurs coming back with the same team thinking the league will still also be the same.

Seriously, history shows that the league will mostly be the same. A very few teams will be better and a few more will be worse.

[Chinook]

It's a cart before the horse thing. Bonner still has value to the Spurs. You only cut Bonner if two things happen: first - Manu takes a contract that would result in more cap space than MLE money assuming you amnesty Bonner - second: there is a FA you like enough in that range you can come to terms with.

With the first thing out of the picture, you don't have a reason to amnesty Bonner. I agree it's not the end of the world and if the Spurs can still add a piece that helps, I could care less about Manu's contract (as I said initially). I am just evaluating what I think this deal does to the odds of landing someone like an AK (although it could still happen) based on what info is available.

With Bonner, if they could have cut him, then could have brought him back for the room exception if they wanted, which would be almost net-neutral to him, but would save the team $3 Million in cap space. With Ginobili, I doubt he really cared whether it was $6 Million or $7 Million. Just like I doubt Duncan cared if he got paid $9 Million or $11 Million last season. If that's what it took to get the right player, I'm sure Ginobili would compromise THAT much. My guess is that the Spurs never really thought about it that way, though.

Even now, the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and move Mills to open up enough space to get Kirilenko. More than likely, they'd try to work out a S&T first though, as that would still give them the MLE if they need it. My guess is it's been MLE or bust for them this entire time.

[DPG21920]

Well, unfortunately Manus deal was what I thought. He did not give the Spurs any discount at all. He got his full market value. I'm happy he's back but combined with how bad he let his team down in the finals I am still incredibly disappointed in Manu Ginobili.

Free agency, from an impact player perspective is likely dead. Not only because of the players available at MLE level, but because MLE has never been good enough for the Spurs. They needed that 7M number to lure someone.

Glad he's back, but damn Manu right now for this past couple months.

With Bonner, if they could have cut him, then could have brought him back for the room exception if they wanted, which would be almost net-neutral to him, but would save the team $3 Million in cap space. With Ginobili, I doubt he really cared whether it was $6 Million or $7 Million. Just like I doubt Duncan cared if he got paid $9 Million or $11 Million last season. If that's what it took to get the right player, I'm sure Ginobili would compromise THAT much. My guess is that the Spurs never really thought about it that way, though.

Even now, the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and move Mills to open up enough space to get Kirilenko. More than likely, they'd try to work out a S&T first though, as that would still give them the MLE if they need it. My guess is it's been MLE or bust for them this entire time.

Ultimately, I agree. I am just assessing the ease of doing so. It would have been easier with Manu at 5M than his 7M to net a guy like AK. In the end, they still may be able to do so, and that is all that really matters. But if they cannot, all signs point to this Manu deal as the main culprit and I still believe that Manu knowingly took as much as he could with little thought to what the Spurs were trying to do. Others (timvp, bruno) feel the same despite some disagreements on what is fair vs overpaid in a bubble.

[Robz4000]

God bless, this Manu deal is tearing ST apart!

[DPG21920]

Also, the other thing to note is that those who know the Spurs FA track record know that unfortunately the MLE has never been enough. Let alone a CBA muted version of the former MLE. Spurs have had a hard enough time with FA's and the MLE has seemingly had them miss out on numerous guys that took the same (or more money) elsewhere.

[Mel_13]

This statement "there's no reason to believe" when Bruno, timvp, myself and Chinook all thought it would definitely be a legit possibility at best alludes to the fact you don't believe what we say.

Wow.

Bruno, and others, laid out possible strategies that the Spurs could employ. I don't recall him, or anyone with credible inside information, saying that would employ any of those strategies. In fact, I can recall Bruno suggesting the scenario that has actually played among those possibilities.

So, I believed that various scenarios were possible. That's not the same as having any evidence that the Spurs ever had any intention to pursue any one of them in particular.

The difference is more that one of semantics.

[Mel_13]

Ultimately, I agree. I am just assessing the ease of doing so. It would have been easier with Manu at 5M than his 7M to net a guy like AK. In the end, they still may be able to do so, and that is all that really matters. But if they cannot, all signs point to this Manu deal as the main culprit and I still believe that Manu knowingly took as much as he could with little thought to what the Spurs were trying to do. Others (timvp, bruno) feel the same despite some disagreements on what is fair vs overpaid in a bubble.

This is the main point of disagreement.

[Chinook]

Well, I guess ultimately this is where we disagree. Manu had the Spurs (IMO and other's opinion) in a situation where they could not really let him go. They probably laid it out much like Timvp said and Manu took what he felt was market value. He did not do the Spurs any favors and I highly doubt that if the Spurs could have had Manu for 2/10 that they would have just paid him 2/14 because in their plans it made no difference in who they wanted to acquire.

We'll never know for sure, and you're definitely en led to your opinion. But you have to ask yourself how much money Duncan would have taken if the Spurs didn't need him to take a discount last year. I bet it would probably have been more than Garnett got at least. If there were no pressure on Ginobili to take less, it doesn't make sense to do so. Just like it didn't make sense for Duncan to opt out of his last year a couple of off-seasons ago, as doing so wouldn't have helped the club at all. (Dirk did opt out to try to help the Mavs, though, as a point of contrast.)

For all we know, both sides may have well though that Ginobili had a higher market value than $7 Million. If the Spurs were willing to pay him $10 Million, and he took $7 Million, that's a good bit of compromise on his part. There are a lot of moving parts to this off-season, and despite all the criticism going on right now, the front office has managed the cap beautifully to be able to re-sign all of their players. Golden State and Boston can't say that, and you better believe that Miami and Los Angeles which their stars signing up only ate up their cap space.

[DPG21920]

Wow.

Bruno, and others, laid out possible strategies that the Spurs could employ. I don't recall him, or anyone with credible inside information, saying that would employ any of those strategies. In fact, I can recall Bruno suggesting the scenario that has actually played among those possibilities.

So, I believed that various scenarios were possible. That's not the same as having any evidence that the Spurs ever had any intention to pursue any one of them in particular.

The difference is more that one of semantics.

So the fact that one time, I used the word "would", despite my literal 50 post on the topic today and previous days was enough for you to claim this things towards me? If that is not semantics, I need to re-think my thoughts on the definition o of the word.

[Johnny RIngo]

Overpaid - he's worth $5m at most. For the past 2 years, he's played in only 63% of the games. When he's not injured, he takes forever to even get back into rhythm. His 12-13 regular season free-throw percentage was 79.6% dropped from 87.1 ('12), 87.1 ('11), 87 ('10), 88.4 ('09), 86 ('08), and 86 ('07). His 12-13 playoff FT% was 73.8% - compared to his career 81.6%. It's not just his physical body that's declined. Can you imagine what he'll be like 2 years from now? And after that horrible playoff run, I don't know how he doesn't feel guilty with all those turnovers.

To all those who are saying that we were one free-throw away from a le - I counter that this past playoff was the perfect storm for the Spurs - Kobe/Lakers injured, Westbrooke out, Wade injured. TD had a spectacular year - do we really expect him to play at that level for 2 more years? How much can Leonard improve to offset the decline in the big 3? And lost in all this, is Neal coming back? We fans love to knock Neal and his lack of defense, but the guy puts up points in a hurry and is a big part of the depth that SAS uses to keep the big 3 rested.

I don't know how Manu sleeps at night knowing he chose to play his best ball for Argentina instead of winning a 5th ring for Timmy...all while being the highest paid player on the team

[DPG21920]

This is the main point of disagreement.

If the Spurs don't land any FA's (at the MLE level or ones that most would perceive at that level or above) is your thought that the Spurs didn't have interest in them or would it be that the MLE could not get it done?

[Chinook]

This is the main point of disagreement.

Pretty much. The Spurs' decision to not waive Bonner was probably the biggest sign they planned to stay over the cap. Them stashing their pick was just a coincidence.

[DPG21920]

We'll never know for sure, and you're definitely en led to your opinion. But you have to ask yourself how much money Duncan would have taken if the Spurs didn't need him to take a discount last year. I bet it would probably have been more than Garnett got at least. If there were no pressure on Ginobili to take less, it doesn't make sense to do so. Just like it didn't make sense for Duncan to opt out of his last year a couple of off-seasons ago, as doing so wouldn't have helped the club at all. (Dirk did opt out to try to help the Mavs, though, as a point of contrast.)

For all we know, both sides may have well though that Ginobili had a higher market value than $7 Million. If the Spurs were willing to pay him $10 Million, and he took $7 Million, that's a good bit of compromise on his part. There are a lot of moving parts to this off-season, and despite all the criticism going on right now, the front office has managed the cap beautifully to be able to re-sign all of their players. Golden State and Boston can't say that, and you better believe that Miami and Los Angeles which their stars signing up only ate up their cap space.

Well, that's where you lose me. Are you saying, that realistically, it would not be any easier for the Spurs to nab a guy like AK47 if Manu took 5M instead of 7M (based on what you feel they would have to do subsequently in order to make things work)?

[TheGoldStandard]

If the Spurs don't land any FA's (at the MLE level or ones that most would perceive at that level or above) is your thought that the Spurs didn't have interest in them or would it be that the MLE could not get it done?

Spurs will land someone, the question will be who.. AK and the boards will come to life with hope. backload the deal and the right number of years and he'll bite, no news on him having other significant offers.

[DPG21920]

It could be the difference between Spurs getting Kirilenko and Spurs not getting him.

Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.

Bruno is telling the truth, tbh.

So, Mel, you disagree with this in addition to mine?

[vander]

And we've done better and better the past two seasons... which confirms what everyone knows: you and your pal rascal suck...

and the player I've most wanted gone (Manu) sabotaged a ridiculously improbable and lucky chance at a le

14 mill spent elsewhere last year and TD has 5

Manu Traded in 08 or 09 and TD probably has 6

manu's last 2 contracts were huge mistakes

[ElNono]

IMO, the biggest question is what does Kirilenko wants? He said more years, ok. How many years and for how much? We have no idea what numbers he's looking for right now, so we have no idea why the Spurs went the way they did.

[DPG21920]

It could be the difference between Spurs getting Kirilenko and Spurs not getting him.

Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.

Spurs will land someone, the question will be who.. AK and the boards will come to life with hope. backload the deal and the right number of years and he'll bite, no news on him having other significant offers.

You can't back load an MLE offer. At this point, that is the best they can hope to offer.

[ElNono]

and the player I've most wanted gone (Manu) sabotaged a ridiculously improbable and lucky chance at a le

14 mill spent elsewhere last year and TD has 5

Manu Traded in 08 or 09 and TD probably has 6

manu's last 2 contracts were huge mistakes

You've been wanting this team to be blown out for the past 5 seasons... what are you ing about again?

[ElNono]

So, Mel, you disagree with this in addition to mine?

I did.

[DPG21920]

IMO, the biggest question is what does Kirilenko wants? He said more years, ok. How many years and for how much? We have no idea what numbers he's looking for right now, so we have no idea why the Spurs went the way they did.

Again, of course, technically this is true. But people (like how I used my best knowledge of the Spurs/Manu/Situation to say Manu will get 2/14) can make assumptions that tend to come true (not always) based on their knowledge. It's not always a "wait and see" and a you are only right after the fact type of situation.

[Chinook]

Well, that's where you lose me. Are you saying, that realistically, it would not be any easier for the Spurs to nab a guy like AK47 if Manu took 5M instead of 7M (based on what you feel they would have to do subsequently in order to make things work)?

Easier? Maybe. More desirable? That's a different matter entirely. If their plan was to just get him and call it an off-season, then they'd probably have started discussions with him already before hammering out an agreement with Ginobili. That fact that we've heard so little about that suggests that wasn't their plan. They don't need the cap space in order to negotiate on a contract with Kirilenko, so there was no reason to have Ginobili choose a number before finding out what number it would take to get the deal done. It would be like if Duncan had agreed to his contract before Green and Diaw were re-signed.

If the Spurs' plan the whole time was to either go after him with the MLE or try to S&T for him, they didn't need cap space at all, and so they could agree with Ginobili early, like they did. Doing it this way is harder, but it shouldn't be that hard, and it will give the team more financial flexibility in the long run.

[TheGoldStandard]

You can't back load an MLE offer. At this point, that is the best they can hope to offer.

Oh well, then options are low.. more of a seat warmer guy then. Don't think we'd get Aminu either for that amount.