If Ralph Sampson didn't get knocked off by injuries we wouldn't be even having this conversation.
Not saying that he had the greatest help in the world compared to other championship teams, but what separates superstar players to HOF players is the ability to maximize the teams talents around them. Duncan was able to do this on 4 separate occasions, while the Dream only 2x, also conveniently around the time where the GOAT was on hiatus. I feel like Duncan's 2003 was more impressive than any of the Dreams' championships.
I just feel that him getting to the Finals so early in his career may have actually hurt him in a way. When young players get to that point so early in their career, normally it should motivate them To get there again. So why the long gap for Hakeem despite being one of the greatest big men of all time? My guess is because he was Rondo-esque, in the sense that he was given too much too soon, and wasn't mature enough to deal with the losses year after year after year.
*on a side note I wouldn't be surprised if rondo goes into "cruise control" this year when he returns seeing how the Celtics situation is hopeless.
If you go back and look Sampson broke down after 2 years, and had about zero help until he was in his 30's.
Don't feed me that bull . Duncan had a prime Manu, Parker, lockdown Bowen, servicable Robinson who lasted longer than Sampson, HOF coach in Pop, and a well run organization. Hakeem? The Rockets were a organization who accused him of faking injuries. Where was Hakeem's help from 87-95?
Honestly I can't really say nor know tbh who hakeems teammates were during that span and I'm not trying to on his career or anything, because it's HOF worthy no doubt, but what Duncan did with that '03 squad in my opinion is in my eyes more impressive than Hakeem's championships.
Maybe a little of why I think Duncan is greater than Hakeem is partly due to homerism, but Duncan's overall career stats certainly give me pretty good leeway on why I think he's better.
No slight to Duncan, but in terms of stats, Dream wins.
Dream had 13 straight years of 20+ ppg, Duncan had a streak of 8 and 9 total.
Dream had 9 seasons at 23+ ppg, Duncan had 3.
Dream had 4 seasons of 25+ ppg, Duncan had 1 and all of Dream's were higher than Duncan's 1.
Even with his low production latter years, Dream's career FG% is higher than Timmy's.
Dream has 14 years at .500 or greater, Timmy has 9.
Dream has a higher FT%.
Dream has a higher 3PT%.
Dream has higher FG attempted percentage and higher FG made numbers.
Timmy has averaged slightly more minutes: 35.8 to 35.7 for Dream.
Defensively?
Dream leads substantially in steals and blocks.
Duncan's best year for steals (0.9) is the same as Dream's worst year, when he was 37 years old.
Dream blocked an average of 3 or more shots per game for 9 years and his career average is 3.1 bpg.
Duncan's seasonal high was 2.9, a number Dream did not fall below until he was 35 years old.
Duncan's high in RPG is 12.9, a number Dream beat 4 times (his high was 14 rpg).
Playoffs?
Dream wins FG%, 3P%, FT%, PPG, steals, blocks, and PER.
Dream had playoff PPG averages over 25 7 times, Duncan averaged 25+ PPG in the playoffs twice.
Dream was over 30 ppg twice, Duncan never.
Duncan had some great rebounding playoffs, but he never approached Dream's high of 16.8 RPG.
Duncan led the NBA in Field Goals, Free Throws, Defensive Rebounds, and Total Rebounds, all in the 01-02 season, as well as twice in games played. He also led 3 times in Defensive Rating, 1 time in Offensive Win Shares, 5 times in Defensive Win Shares, and twice in Win Shares. Total: 17.
Dream led the NBA in:
Games (4 years)
Field Goal Attempts (1)
Offensive Rebounds (1)
Defensive Rebounds (2)
Total Rebounds (2)
Blocks (2)
Rebounds Per Game (2)
Blocks Per Game (3)
Offensive Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rebounding % (2)
Total Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rating (5)
Defensive Win Shares (4)
Total: 30.
Again, Duncan's a great player, but there is no comparison here. No slight to Duncan, but it shows how spectacular Dream was... and he was that way for 13 years before the numbers began falling off.
i'm glad you brought up Dream's 3 point shooting
You guys realize that Manu, Tony, and Tim were all healthy and in their primes for two seasons, don't you?
2006, 2007. That's it. Manu was injured in 2008 against LA, then in 2009 Tim's knees gave out. In 2005 Tony still couldn't shoot for , and good defenses gave him trouble (see Finals).
Tim Duncan has had to play with the likes of washed up Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, washed up Avery Johnson, and a banged up David Robinson, who missed chunks of the 2002 and 2003 playoffs. Timmy has had help, but not as much as his detractors/KG and Dream fans would have you believe.
in 03, at least. in 05 Manu was at his absolute best. in 07 Manu and Parker were both all star caliber. in 99 Robinson was still one of the better centers in the league. but the year I always point to is 03. Robinson was still a smart player but wasn't a guy the other team was worrying about. Parker was awful down the stretch in those playoffs, especially in the finals. Manu was a rook and was making a play here and there but that's about it. Stephen Jackson was our second leading scorer in the playoffs, and he wasn't anywhere near prime Jax
The compe ion was much more intensive back then when Dream was playing than the post-Jordan era when Duncan won those rings, imho. You may argue that Duncan's supporting casts on those championship-winning sides were not necessarily superior to those Dream got during the 94' and 95' runs, but the Spurs were and are a much greater franchise than the Rockets have ever been, which you can hardly argue against. Dream definitely deserved credit for carrying a ty team to the NBA championships twice in a row tbh. Antoher example, OKC had better talents prior to the Harden trade than either of the 94-95 rockets or the Spurs of 03-07, but the thunder have been a ty franchise and I never fancied their chance of winning the championship, or even getting close to it. Dream managed to do what was nearly impossible, leading a ty team to multiple NBA championships.
Yet that 2003 supporting cast still outscored Dream's by nearly 100 points.
Last edited by Michael Jordan.; 09-26-2013 at 08:34 AM.
Great players make teammates better...throughout his career Mr. Duncan has been the overall better team player
His teams weren't too shabby.
Tim Duncan is the PF version of Hakeem tbh
Dude seems to me more like the PF version of Magic tbh.
neither were dream's...casell, horry, kenny, mad max, OT, clyde, robert reid, mario ellie, and so on.....
Most of those were in his 30's. I'm talking about from the moment Sampson bit the dust to winning. 87-94. How many hall of famers, hall of fame coaches, all stars, all star caliber players, did he play with during that time? In his absolute prime.
About whether or not the league was tougher in the 90's, just wanted to give my two cents.
I don't think it's fair to compare the two eras because the game has changed a lot. In the 90's, guys played more intense, physical ball. Today, the game is more open and free, kinda structured to help offenses more. Not only has the game changed but the players as well. Guys are much more athletic even if you look at the scrubs. There's also a lot of hybrid players these days with unique skill sets which was rare back then. I think the talent level has gone up too.
Personally, I think it was easier for defenses back then and it's easier for offenses today.
To be fair, defenses nowadays are far more sophisticated scheme-wise than they were in the '90s due to innovations like Thibs' strong-side defense....
True, but like 21 said, the game is tailored for Guards and Fowards these days. Innovative defenses is key when you can just swipe your arms under a defender and get 2 free throws.
Sampson had so much potential
Tim Duncan's career is easily more successful that Hakeem.Duncan at his prime would eat Olajuwan for breakfast. It's so funny how people forget how good Duncan really was at his prime. The Spurs literally ran the 4down play over and over and won championships doing it because nobody could stop Tim Duncan from scoring in the post. He'll never get the credit he truly deserves until he's finally retired and people look back and reflect. If I were building a new team, I'd take a prime Duncan over a prime Olajuwan any day.
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