It's Pretty Simple...If You Believe In Right From Wrong - You Believe In God

[RandomGuy]

To Random guy posting all that old testament stuff here is my pastoral response on why God allowed War in the Old Testament

That is some mental gymnastics right there.

My moral system allows me to answer simple questions quite easily. Yours doesn't.

Why is that?

The Bible/Torah God is a sick , and you are apologizing for him drowning babies, and massacring children.

If God told you to slit the throats of everyone in a city men, women, and children, would you?

[xmas1997]

Sorry, the weak handwaving and inability to answer very simple questions isn't going to convince anyone about "veils".

Answer me this:

What does it say about a moral/logical stance when the simple question "is it moral to hack a child to death?" is not answered?

Lift my veil. Go ahead.

Your very analogy is weak, as is your attributing to me things I did not say, and in fact argued against.
You need to keep up with the discussion if you are going to be able to contribute coherently.
But for your edification, it is not moral to hack a child to death.
If you think it is then you are quite sick and should be put away!
And if you choose to believe that part of the bible, then that is your prerogative, but I do not, nor will I ever.
Good luck with those sick beliefs.
IMHO it is beliefs like that that allow people like you to justify war, racial cleansings, and all sorts of other atrocities.

[xmas1997]

Ah the paradox rears its ugly head.

A) I am fallible
B) Fallible beings need infallible God to tell them what is true.

I need infallible God to tell me what is true. If A, then B.

A) I am fallible.
B) I have chosen to read the bible to know what is infallible.

See where this is going?

If you are capable of making mistakes, how do you know that the bible in its present form isn't exactly what infallible God wanted it to be?

Your reasoning is faulty and quite limited if that is what you think IMHO.
You should read some other great books, use science, and if all that fails you, then fall back on your conscience and some good common sense.
Then maybe, just maybe some of those veils that are self imposed by your own lack of understanding and faulty reading comprehension might be lifted.
I can not help you, nor do I presume that it is my job to do so. It is your job to figure this stuff out.
I've done my due diligence, and come to my own personal conclusions.
You do yours, it isn't my job to do it for you, sorry.
But I feel sorry for you if you think it is ok to believe that God, universal consciousness, the great sky daddy, Yahweh, or whatever you choose to call Him would say it was ok, or command, to do the things you say.
And furthermore, IMHO it is very naive to believe such a literal translation as that in the first place.

[Mr. Blonde]

I believe in God you know...kinda, but I don't really believe in right from wrong. so your theories ed.

[xmas1997]

You might try making some sort of conclusive point, instead of useless gibberish.
This is a discussion, not an exercise in ridicule.
Get it?
Or is that too much for you to comprehend?

[Blake]

You should read some other great books, use science, and if all that fails you, then fall back on your conscience and some good common sense.

.....IMHO it is very naive to believe such a literal translation as that in the first place.

but it's not naive and it's perfect common sense to believe in an invisible magic man that loves you.

Ok.

[Mr. Blonde]

never argue with a christmas kitty.

[xmas1997]

but it's not naive and it's perfect common sense to believe in an invisible magic man that loves you.

Ok.

There are a lot stranger beliefs than that out there.
No one is trying to persuade you that God exists, are they?
They are just telling you what they believe.
Some people believe that aliens have visited them.
Others believe they are Napoleon or Alexander the Great.
Aren't you confusing facts with opinions?
Or is it your contention that it is facts versus fiction?
It really doesn't matter, "belief" in and of itself is a "subjective" exercise, nothing less, nothing more.
And thus is not something that you can argue over unless you like getting caught up in trivialities.
IMHO.

[Blake]

There are a lot stranger beliefs than that out there.
No one is trying to persuade you that God exists, are they?
They are just telling you what they believe.

Nobody is telling you what to believe either. If you want to believe in an illogical sky father that defies rational thought, go for it.

[JustaGirl21]

why do all your thoughts have to be rational. leads to a boring life.

[xmas1997]

why do all your thoughts have to be rational. leads to a boring life.

Truer words were never spoken!

[xmas1997]

Nobody is telling you what to believe either. If you want to believe in an illogical sky father that defies rational thought, go for it.

I never said He was "an illogical sky father", you did.
Thus we have different beliefs, and by extension, different opinions.
So how can you dispute someone's opinion?
You can't. To do so is fruitless and thus illogical, so IMHO you are the one engaging in illogical activities.

[Blake]

why do all your thoughts have to be rational. leads to a boring life.

are all your thoughts irrational then?

[Blake]

I never said He was "an illogical sky father", you did.
Thus we have different beliefs, and by extension, different opinions.
So how can you dispute someone's opinion?
You can't. To do so is fruitless and thus illogical, so IMHO you are the one engaging in illogical activities.

Yes, I called Bible God illogical because by definition he is.

And indirectly, you think he's illogical too or you wouldn't be cherry picking from the Bible.

[xmas1997]

are all your thoughts irrational then?

Why do you never acknowledge the gray areas? Things are rarely if ever purely black or white, as your questions presuppose, i.e. "all" your thoughts rational, or "all" your thoughts irrational.

[xmas1997]

Yes, I called Bible God illogical because by definition he is.

And indirectly, you think he's illogical too or you wouldn't be cherry picking from the Bible.

By your definition only, am I cherry picking. And even if chose to do so "by your definition", who said there was anything wrong with that? You?
Who made you an authority on cherry picking?
And furthermore, what do you consider so offensive if someone cherry picks?
Seems to me you are being pretty anal about all of this.

[Blake]

By your definition only, am I cherry picking. And even if chose to do so "by your definition", who said there was anything wrong with that? You?
Who made you an authority on cherry picking?
And furthermore, what do you consider so offensive if someone cherry picks?
Seems to me you are being pretty anal about all of this.

By the entire world's definition of cherry picking, you staying that it's naive to take the Old Testament literally is cherry picking.

nobody is telling you not to be a cherry picker, but you can't say that you're not.

Sorry it's becoming a source of butthurt for you.

[xmas1997]

No, on the contrary, I have yet to be "butt hurt" as you call it.
What have I to be that way about?
If you feel that I am, then that is a misconception on your part and thus your problem to deal with as best you can.
When the truth is I am highly amused by all of this. You see, I let it go almost as quickly as I arrive at my opinion.
And sure, I can say I am not cherry picking simply because IMHO I believe I am not.
Only "you" think that I am, and that is just your opinion. It remains to me to accept or reject your opinion.
In this case I choose to reject it because IMHO your opinion about me has no basis in truth, simply because no matter what you think, the reality is you have no inkling of who I am, and you barely have an inkling of what I believe.
Do you understand where I am going with all of this? I doubt you do, but that is ok too, it's really not very important when you consider the grand scheme of things.
However, it does allow me to continue to discuss these things, these opinions, with a certain amount of dispassion and thus maintain civility without resorting to making a fool of myself by resorting to ridiculing you as so many here do.
You have only one recourse left to you as well, and that is whether to accept or reject my opinions.
Because when you get right down to the nitty gritty, that is all any of this is, no matter how much either of us wish to disguise it as fact.

[Blake]

Tldr

[RandomGuy]

Your very analogy is weak, as is your attributing to me things I did not say, and in fact argued against.
You need to keep up with the discussion if you are going to be able to contribute coherently.
But for your edification, it is not moral to hack a child to death.
If you think it is then you are quite sick and should be put away!
And if you choose to believe that part of the bible, then that is your prerogative, but I do not, nor will I ever.
Good luck with those sick beliefs.
IMHO it is beliefs like that that allow people like you to justify war, racial cleansings, and all sorts of other atrocities.

Um, I didn't really make an analogy.

And, if you read closely, I didn't really say it was *you* specifically that said these things, or could not answer a question. I was simply referring to coolaidman and whatshisbutt evading that question.

3 So Joshua arose, and all the people of war, to go up against Ai; and Joshua chose thirty thousand mighty men of valor and sent them away by night. 4 And he commanded them, saying: “Behold, you shall lie in ambush against the city, behind the city. Do not go very far from the city, but all of you be ready. 5 Then I and all the people who are with me will approach the city; and it will come about, when they come out against us as at the first, that we shall flee before them. 6 For they will come out after us till we have drawn them from the city, for they will say, ‘They are fleeing before us as at the first.’ Therefore we will flee before them. 7 Then you shall rise from the ambush and seize the city, for the Lord your God will deliver it into your hand. 8 And it will be, when you have taken the city, that you shall set the city on fire. According to the commandment of the Lord you shall do. See, I have commanded you.”

...

24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword. 25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. 27 Only the livestock and the spoil of that city Israel took as booty for themselves, according to the word of the Lord which He had commanded Joshua

Kind of hard to reconcile a kind loving God with one so obviously bent on slaughter.

I don't see much "parable" here that is open to interpretation. This is a pretty straightforward account of mass murder.

You also dodged the question.

While I commend you for having the nuts to call evil, evil, the question I posed remains.

What does it say about a belief system when people who profess to hold it can't tell you that murdering children is immoral?
(edit)
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post6873199

[xmas1997]

Tldr

You choose not to accept rational reasoning.
So apparently your motive is drawn into question.
I think you only wish to mock and ridicule.
If so, you will only make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have.
And how far has that gotten you?

[RandomGuy]

Your reasoning is faulty and quite limited if that is what you think IMHO.
You should read some other great books, use science, and if all that fails you, then fall back on your conscience and some good common sense.
Then maybe, just maybe some of those veils that are self imposed by your own lack of understanding and faulty reading comprehension might be lifted.
I can not help you, nor do I presume that it is my job to do so. It is your job to figure this stuff out.
I've done my due diligence, and come to my own personal conclusions.
You do yours, it isn't my job to do it for you, sorry.
But I feel sorry for you if you think it is ok to believe that God, universal consciousness, the great sky daddy, Yahweh, or whatever you choose to call Him would say it was ok, or command, to do the things you say.
And furthermore, IMHO it is very naive to believe such a literal translation as that in the first place.

I don't think the bible is worth more than any other book of poetry or philosphy. I do not hold it literally, or even figuratively.

Some of the historical accounts of happenings were almost certainly accurate to some degree.

I would agree that is it naive.

[RD2191]

The Canaanites were full of so that's why they died.

[mouse]

Nobody is telling you what to believe either.

Except for the teachers and the Text books.

[Blake]

You choose not to accept rational reasoning.

wut

So apparently your motive is drawn into question.
I think you only wish to mock and ridicule.
If so, you will only make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have.
And how far has that gotten you?

If you think I'm only wanting to mock and ridicule you, why are you still talking to me?

Either discuss what's on the table or don't. How far has questioning why it's on the table got you?