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Must've been in a loss. Didn't lead well enough.
As basketball fans we are truly blessed to have grown up watching both Duncan and KG. Two truly great two-way players tbh.
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Must've been in a loss. Didn't lead well enough.
I do remember crotchety old Karl Malone outscoring KG in Game 1 of that series to steal the HCA, howeva
Little Mexican chaser gave Duncan tons of fits in the semis tbh. Not too shocking he slowed down KG in one game out of six.
The point remains, brah:
MJ: 63 in the garden, flu game, bryon russell, changing hands mid-air against Lakers, and etc etc
Kareem: a bunch from Mil-ay-wak-ay and Lakeshow involving the Skyhook
Magic: baby hook
Bird: steal, multiple big shots
Kobe: dominant overtime performance in Game 4 at Conseco (w/ a fouled out Shaq) that effectively sealed the series, GW shots against Phoenix in 2000 and 2006, going HAM on Sacto and San Antonio in 2001 and 2002. 40 pts against the Magic in Game 1 of the Finals.
Duncan: Near Quad-double in Game 6 2003 Finals
Dirk: Big 3 and winning layup in Game 2 of the NBA finals in 2011, Game 1 against OKC same year, Game 5 against Phoenix 2006, G5 GSW 2007, Clutch go ahead shot in G5 of the NBA Finals in 2006 before the shady foul on Wade.
Wade: entire 2006 Finals
LeBron: G5 against Pistons, last 2 Finals
KG: Hold on, lemme youtube...
Yeah, I dont really think you actually believe that automatically makes Dirk better tbh.
Actually, Garnett's 32/20 game 7 performance against the Kings is highly memorable to anyone who's watched basketball during that time (which there seems to be not many in this thread), it was nominated for all-decade performance by TNT a few years ago. Not to mention his performance in Game 6 to closeout the Lakers where he pretty much slammed the door on their le hopes in the first half (had like 18 first half points including some incredible plays), he finished with 26/14.
For the record, I have Dirk slightly ahead of Garnett due to longevity and more overall team success. I just can't get behind the idea that Garnett "wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics" when all of the numbers suggest he was by a fairly decent margin, and by an even larger margin in the Playoffs (leading scorer, rebounder, upped his numbers across the board)
Agreed.
KG is a once in a generation player just like Dirk, and I am not arguing that, the thing is the "sidekick" that Dirk requires (defensive anchor big) is much easier to find, relatively, than the "sickkick" that KG requires. To sum it up, it is much easier to find someone like Chandler than Pierce. I am not saying that either are easy to find, one is just easier to find relative to another. In the last decade, we have a couple of players who can fill Pierce's role, and all of them are superstar level players. We have seen more than a few Chandler type players, and they do not cost as much. Which brings us to my original premise, KG is a better player than Dirk, but Dirk is the better #1 if I want to build a championship team.
I wouldn't call them horrible, they are not great for sure, definitely not championship quality, but not horrible. David Robinson, for example, had way worse supporting casts than KG had, and hauled them to 50+ win seasons and 2nd rounds.
Also, part of the reason his cast was "horrible" was due to his albatross contract. He doesn't necessarily have to turn down guaranteed money if someone is shoving it in his face, but hey, he was the reason for it.
Dirk go to the 2nd round once and won a championship. That's one more 2nd round and one more championship than KG had in the beginning of the decade.
Depends what you mean by solid help. If KG can have a player like Vince Carter/T-Mac/Kobe beside him, then get a good PG to supplement, then sure, he could have, but then KG will no longer be the alpha on that team, and again, a 1b at best.
No arguments, but Dirk and Duncan were responsible for their environments as well. They are all leaders of the team. Not sure if Cassell or Sprewell ever looked up to KG as the leader, or a very very talented player who is the best on the team, but there is no doubt everybody on the Mavs and Spurs looked up to Dirk and Duncan as leaders.
Which at the end goes to my earlier point, I can understand either positions in the argument, but saying KG is definitely over Dirk and everybody else who says otherwise is an idiot is something I can't agree with.
I am not getting you. Are you saying Kobe, Paul and Garnett > Lebron in 2008? Are you saying Stoudemire was the leader of the SUns in 08 and not Nash?
For the record, there are two very memorable Garnett playoff games. The Kings game, and the Lakers game. I think I mentioned at least one of them earlier in the thread. But guess what? One of them was part of a series loss, and the other one happened in the 2nd round (or was that a 1st round).
Otoh, Dirk had an entire insane playoff run that led to a championship. 48 points on 15 shots vs. OKC, 40 points on 20 shots in the SAME SERIES. 34/11/3/3 in the finals. 28/14 vs. LAL on the way to a sweep.
Even in his much criticized 06 season, he had a 50/12 vs. the Suns in the WCF and came up huge in Game 7 of the Spurs series 37/15.
That's 6 highly memorable games off the top of my head (I had to look up the numbers, but I remembered the games), 3 of which happened in a playoff run in 2011.
It's sort of the thing that got Hakeem his notoriety, sure had had a lousy streak in his career, but people remember him for those insane runs in 94 and 95.
lol attributing the Game 6 massacre to any one player...you're adorable, buddy. And I'm glad we were all able to google and find KG's one shining moment in the 2004 WCSF--which he quickly followed up with getting outplayed by a 57 y/o PF.
His likeness will never be seen again
He missed the 2005-06 all-NBA team. 9 bigs chosen ahead of him - Dirk, Shaq, LeBron, Timmy, Brand, Ben Wallace, Yao, Melo, and Marion. He played a full season that year too.
edit - link: http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2448612
There's no satisfying way to explain that away. I know it's affected by team success, but (1) you can't name another supposedly all-time great that missed even the third-team in his prime while healthy (Kobe was, e.g., a third teamer when his team won 33 games despite only playing 66 games), and (2) he can't be totally off the hook for how brutal that team did.
Last edited by nowhereman523; 10-25-2013 at 01:40 PM.
Where did I attribute the entire game to Garnett? You asked for memorable Playoff performances and that was obviously one of them for Garnett. I'm sorry that KG's 32/20 performance (that apparantly I had to "dig through the archives for" despite the fact that it was like one of 6-7 performances nominated for best of the decade by TNT) wasn't good enough for you, but to most people it is a very memorable game.
KG outplayed by Malone in the WCF? Are you really just making things up now to discredit Garnett?
Garnett: 23.7/13.5/4.5/1.2/1.2 on 46% FG in 43 MPG
Malone: 12.0/9.3/4.7/1.2/0 on 44% FG in 39 MPG
Yup, definitely outplayed.
Yes, in Game 1 (which quickly followed G7 and what I already referenced in the convo with FkLA) he was outplayed by Malone. He followed up his greatest playoff performance by getting outplayed by the Mailman and having HCA ripped from him. Btw, the hometeam won the remaining 5 games of that series, so methinks G1 loomed rather large, no?
Also, I'll play along and assume you remembered the G7--that's one, to Dirk's handful+ amount of great playoff performances. Better leader, better player, better winner=Dirk
Off the top of my head, Carmelo & Wade missed the all-nba teams in 07-08 (although Wade wasn't particularly healthy). At the end of the day those selections are subjective and based on media/hype. Garnett and the Wolves weren't relevant in 06 (or 05-07), Garnett still performed as he always did individually.
Malone narrowly outplayed KG in one game of that series, and was dominated for every other game (understandably so, it was Malone on his last legs against prime KG).
I already mentioned more than one, but you've simply decided they aren't good enough for you. You obviously have something against Garnett so you'll find away to shoot down any good performance I mention regardless.
Omg you slow mother er, let me spell it out for you:
He had his best playoff game ever in G7 of the WCSF, and followed that up by getting outplayed by the Mailman in G1 of the WCF. He was in the prime of his career and the league MVP going up against an old bas on his last legs. G1 ultimately decided the series, and in that game KG lost his matchup and let the team down. It was only the most important game of his career up to that point, no biggie.
The other performances you mentioned are good, but require google.
I know, relax kiddo. I misunderstood your post, edited.
I don't know what point you're trying to prove by saying the one game he got outplayed by Malone (before he dominated him for 5 straight games) was after his best performance. In what way does that discredit his performance? It doesn't, it's completely irrelevant...like most of what you say. The series was decided by Cassell & Hudson (their starting AND backup PG) being hurt/out.
KG's Game 1 performance was not even that bad, other stars have had worse. Lebron's game 5 against the Celtics in 2010 and Dirks Game 6 against the Warriors were both much worse performances (and significantly more important games, one being a close-out and one being a pivotal game).
but LeBron and Dirk have also gone on to win as unquestionable aplhas and their playoff performances dwarf KG's. Get it yet?
and lol at downplaying a subpar performance in G1 of the WCF. Did that game not loom large over the rest of the series? Do you deny that the home team won the remaining 5 games of that WCF?
That's besides the point, I'm not arguing whether or not KG is better than Lebron or Dirk. You tried to use his Game 1 performance to discredit his Game 7 performance against the Kings (which still makes no sense to me), when you can pick out games for plenty of stars/all-time greats that were subpar/not up to their standards.
Edit: I don't know what an "aplhas" is, but if you're talking best player on the team. KG won as the unquestioned best player of the Celtics in 2008.
Again, you can point out bad games from plenty of great players, I just brought up two that were worse and directly led to their respective teams losing the series. I still don't see how it takes away from his Game 7 performance against Kings.
Pure bull , he was a sometimes 1a, but mostly a 1b in big games for that C's team. There was never any doubt who the big on campus was on the last 3 le teams.
Sure he'll always have that WCSF win, nobody can take that way from him. If that's the high point in his body of work more power to him
Offensively? Yeah sure, although Garnett led them in scoring in the Playoffs. But there are two ends to the basketball court, and if you're 1a/1b offensively and 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defensively/rebounding then I don't see how you aren't the best player.
I didn't hold Wade or Melo in nearly the esteem I hold KG, so those comparables are actually very telling in a negative way. Either way, just another data point among many why I have the guy behind Timmy/Dirk/Barkley/Malone.
I honestly completely forgot you picked KG as the better player tbh.
But regarding your point, KG happened to win with two in Pierce and Allen but I honestly dont think that a 'superteam' was the only way he couldve won. Cassell and Spree arent HOFs and they were legit le contenders that year. I also think its arguable whether a DPOY candidate is easier to find than an all-star that can score and take some pressure of KG in clutch situations.
They were terrible, man. You can name some solid players here or there over the years but overall they sucked. Guys like Trenton Hassell were his Bruce Bowen, Hudson/Wally were his #2 for a couple years, he didnt have an owner with big pockets like Dirk, their management wasnt able to overcome that like the Spurs were able to, etc. Relative to what Duncan/Dirk enjoyed for the majority of their time what KG had was crap.
His contract played a role in it no doubt. But with an owner like Cubes that might not have even mattered.
Nah, I dont think you can really count 2011 as a year were Dirk had dog around him. I mean he had what he needed (defensive anchor) in Chandler as well as shooters all around him, so why would you count it? After the 2007 choke I do think the Mavs kinda spiraled downwards...2008-2010 they were nothing special. In those years they had two first round exits and a win over the Ginobili-less Spurs. Not much different than what KG did all those years with ty casts.
This is where we disagree. Spree and Cassell were all-star caliber players but they werent the cream of the crop for their respective positions. Theres a big gap between the casts he had and having elite talent around him--his 2004 squad falls somewhere in the between. Give him something similar throughout his career and his teams have plenty of success.
I remember them being pretty close and KG openly supporting Spree getting paid. Dont think there was any tension between them, more with management and ownerships unwillingness to open up their pockets. Something that likely wouldnt have been a problem with Cubes.
1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh. Its not laughable to compare the two since Dirk is one of the best of all-time as well (which is a testament to how dominant his offense is since he isnt a dominant two-way player), but its still pretty clear who the better player is imho. What I do find laughable is the reasoning some of these mavfans use to support their stance--nowhereman is a great example.
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