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  1. #126
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Unfortunately 95 series killed his reputation and he will be a top 25-50 in most books between Dirk and KG, his true potential is much higher but never fulfilled.

    To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had. There is Jordan and his stacked teams, prime Hakeem, prime Stockton/Malone. And Spurs did not have the front office it has today and Popovich. For players who "disappeared when it mattered", these tend to be players who carried their teams all season and in the end their body betrayed them and just didn't have enough left in the tank. A lot of it is actually not mental at all! Players eventually run out of gas if you ask them to play 40 minutes a night and put up monster numbers to compensate for weak roster!

    Luck is a huge part of everyone's strength. What if LeBron did not have the perfect team waiting for him in Miami and stuck with Cavs for a few more years? He could have very very easily fell to Kevin Garnett tier (whom I believe, is not nearly as far off Duncan as their historical rankings suggest). What if Duncan played in a big market team for Phil Jackson? He could have been the perfect teammate for Kobe Bryant and easily won 6 les.

    There is no what-if however. David was my favorite player despite his flaws. Same with Duncan who in all honesty, had a ton of problem with Shaq and Wallace Brothers and would have very easily been labelled soft if Big Shot Rob did not bail him out (same way Ray Allen saved LeBron's career). It is fate and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it. I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.
    This is a very insightful post. Unfortunately this type of logical [bigger picture type] analysis eludes the capabilities of most fans... for them it's easier to construct an argument based strictly on the comparison of two numbers, than to consider the context by which those numbers [i.e. stats] were generated/accrued.

    For example, David amassed his stats before the hand-check era, before zone-defenses were allowed, when a lot more contact was allowed, mostly prior to the arrival of the restrictive circle... in other words, his offensive numbers would be even gaudier in today's league, and his defensive stats would have flourished (imagine David as a weak-side defender where zone-defense was allowed)... that said, the defensive 3 second rule could have impacted his defensive game detrimentally... Again, having to speculate about a player's adaptability to certain rules given the context of rule changes ruins a direct comparison between players of different eras...

    Anyways, I agree with your secondary premise... LUCK is a huge part of the equation. Luck alters hardware (or lack thereof). Hardware alters perceptions. Perceptions alters history. And all three factor into players' legacies...

  2. #127
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    I don't think Pau is overrated tbh. All is see is Laker fans ting all over him. If he gets praised by Spurfan, it's probably to balance out all the undeserved criticism he gets from his own fanbase.

    And, if you want to be objective, Pau Gasol has had a much more impressive career than Parker or Ginobili. I would put him right behind Dirk on a list of the best international players of all-time.
    I think a case can be made ... for Pau over Manu. Depending on if you are speaking STRICTLY on NBA career. I think HOF wise, Manu has the stronger case because he actually despite Spain's recent rise has been the more successful international player leading Argentina to to key wins over Pau when both were in their primes and Spain favored. I like Pau he is a great player and yes he gets bad rap from some laker fans. But what about spur fans up here who on Manu, Tony or even Pop? Only Duncan gets fair praise and criticism on this board by most fans tbh ...

  3. #128
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    ...

    D ROB never had the love for the game or drive Duncan had to winning! D ROB is pure athleticism and a freak of nature, Tim relied on Fundamentals and just was a student of the game and worked hard while D ROB just had it naturally but never had the drive some have like Tim or Jordan etc.

    ...

    If DR had Tim his whole career that would have been a sight to see, they complimented eachother well.

    it came naturally and he didn't have to work hard? Didn't have drive? Have you ever seen the guy? He is pushing fifty and is ripped like prime Arnold. You don't get that way without supreme effort. The guy always made the effort. And he didn't sulk off into the sunset with a Bronze. He went back and got two Golds. That's drive right there.

  4. #129
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    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

    The difference is Spurs had David Robinson guarding Shaq plus significant double teams, and Lakers put scrubs on Duncan and just worked him one-on-one. Shaq's impact on the game was noticeably bigger until 2003 when Duncan finally broke out. In 4th quarter when Shaq guarded Duncan, he pretty much shut Duncan down, by then fatigue comes in and without speed advantage Duncan has no way of dealing with Shaq's brute strength. Kobe rains jumpers, Duncan misses a couple and Lakers won. This is why I felt 1999 Spurs was the strongest of them all with David at his best.

    Back on topic, there is no way Duncan would have done anything with David's pre-1998 coach/roster, but there is no what if's in history.


  5. #130
    Veteran Chomag's Avatar
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    He was but Hakeem abused him so badly when David needed to prove he was up to the task..
    I don't agree with this. 95 was a bad series for Drob against Hakeem yes but most of the times when they played each other they both played each other well, it was always fun to watch those 2 matched up.
    I still think 95 series wasn't as bad as it had looked because I think Dave would have pretty much matched all of what Hakeem was doing if he hadn't had such a team to support him. He was double and triple teamed on about every possession.

  6. #131
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had[...]I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.
    Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

    Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.

  7. #132
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    Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

    Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.

    34 POINTS.

    10 REBOUNDS.

    10 ASSISTS.

    10 BLOCKS.

    Sounds like a pretty flipping "all around game" to me.

  8. #133
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    34 POINTS.

    10 REBOUNDS.

    10 ASSISTS.

    10 BLOCKS.

    Sounds like a pretty flipping "all around game" to me.
    Meh...regular season against a 20-62 team. He probably got the assists because Detroit stopped defending everyone else. I hate to "belittle" a quad-dub because it is an amazing achievement, but it doesn't demonstrate that he was a complete player at the level of Tim.

  9. #134
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    Lots of stupid in this thread. Reading it makes my head hurt.

    To me, when evaluating where a player ranks in all-time rankings, I don't just look at whether they had a dominant performance in a playoff series. I look at the entire body of work. Winning championships is obviously a huge part of it. Taking success into context of how talented a player's supporting cast was is also a large part of it. Also, how diverse were the player's skills? Are they good at one or two things? Or six or seven?

    To me, David was really good at a lot of things. He took teams which should not have been successful, and made them successful. Just because he didn't win les with them, without Duncan, doesn't mean that he should be eliminated from discussion of top players. Likewise, just because a player won les and had good games, it doesn't automatically mean he should be considered among the best without also considering his supporting cast. It's all relative to me, and should be considered in context. Unfortunately, a lot of people evaluate athletes like they do politicians: they base their opinions on sound bites and media stories rather than doing their own thinking and analysis.

    It's frustrating when objective measurements offered, such as David's outstanding win shares and loss shares, fall on deaf ears. Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!!

    Discussion about David's many, many successes, whether it be in individual games (71 point game, quadruple double, numerous triple doubles, 29 points in the 1996 Olympic gold medal game, etc.) or over entire seasons (MVP, Defensive POY, Rookie of the Year, IBM awards, etc.) seems to be dominated in this thread by subjective crap like "David was soft" and "Hakeem's dream shake was nasty." Some of you can do better, and you know it.

    Nobody is saying that David was perfect. His game had weaknesses, for sure. Nobody is saying that he is the best player ever. But to simply dismiss what was an incredible career by a really gifted player, based on an unfairly biased view that Hakeem beat him in 1995 and David never won without Duncan, is sad. Especially from Spurs "fans" who should know better.

  10. #135
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!


    To whott

  11. #136
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Lots of stupid in this thread. Reading it makes my head hurt.

    To me, when evaluating where a player ranks in all-time rankings, I don't just look at whether they had a dominant performance in a playoff series. I look at the entire body of work. Winning championships is obviously a huge part of it. Taking success into context of how talented a player's supporting cast was is also a large part of it. Also, how diverse were the player's skills? Are they good at one or two things? Or six or seven?

    To me, David was really good at a lot of things. He took teams which should not have been successful, and made them successful. Just because he didn't win les with them, without Duncan, doesn't mean that he should be eliminated from discussion of top players. Likewise, just because a player won les and had good games, it doesn't automatically mean he should be considered among the best without also considering his supporting cast. It's all relative to me, and should be considered in context. Unfortunately, a lot of people evaluate athletes like they do politicians: they base their opinions on sound bites and media stories rather than doing their own thinking and analysis.

    It's frustrating when objective measurements offered, such as David's outstanding win shares and loss shares, fall on deaf ears. Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!!

    Discussion about David's many, many successes, whether it be in individual games (71 point game, quadruple double, numerous triple doubles, 29 points in the 1996 Olympic gold medal game, etc.) or over entire seasons (MVP, Defensive POY, Rookie of the Year, IBM awards, etc.) seems to be dominated in this thread by subjective crap like "David was soft" and "Hakeem's dream shake was nasty." Some of you can do better, and you know it.

    Nobody is saying that David was perfect. His game had weaknesses, for sure. Nobody is saying that he is the best player ever. But to simply dismiss what was an incredible career by a really gifted player, based on an unfairly biased view that Hakeem beat him in 1995 and David never won without Duncan, is sad. Especially from Spurs "fans" who should know better.
    Here it is... but it will be glossed over yet again...

    and it's whottt with 3 t's

    1). None of the Spurs' role players showed up consistently in that series. In fact, Dennis Rodman, Robinson’s notorious front court mate, went completely crazy [moreso than usual] in the middle of the series. If he had simply imploded and quit on his team, it may have been surmountable. But no, he went bat- crazy and sabotaged the Spurs’ chances for winning the series all-together by being largely responsible for putting them in an 0-2 hole to start the series, AT HOME, no less!! The majority of those that use this series as an argument to knock Robinson’s legacy NEVER mention this fact. Apparently, no one outside of San Antonio even remembers this subterfuge – as if Rodman’s 0 for 5 from downtown in Games 1 and 2 wasn’t sufficient a clue. Upon closer inspection [I’ve watched that series more than I care to admit] Rodman’s sabotage is more cunning. Nonchalantly closing out on three point shooters [which, when motivated, Rodman was one of the best – as was the case against the Lakers’ bombers the series before], doubling the wrong man, fouling at a higher clip than usual, ‘inadvertently’ setting picks against his OWN players, etc… When San Antonio media questioned his antics after Game 1, he cunningly pointed to his free-throw shooting as a counter-argument to the suggestion that he “was playing for the other guys”. In other words, Rodman only cared about his rebounds [as usual, for personal reasons only – not because he cared about winning the actual games], and pretended to care by ensuring his free-throws were ‘well taken’. That is some downright Machiavellian scheming right there – and most would probably never believe that Rodman was capable of such maneuvering. But I saw it, Rudy T. saw it, Bob Hill failed to react to the obvious, and the Rockets took advantage – all at David Robinson’s expense. Lo and behold, ESPN neglected the story.

    2). Robinson was constantly double-teamed by Horry and Olajuwon, or by Olajuwon and Charles Jones (whose sole purpose in that series was to hack away at Robinson – in just 88 minutes played over 6 games, Jones averaged a whopping 7.7 fouls per 36 min (for a total of 19 fouls)!!, 84% of which were committed against Robinson]. The Spurs couldn't counter because it left one of Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler or Mario Elie WIDE OPEN for threes. Game 1, Game 3 and the clincher in Game 6 were decided by critically clutch shots made by these bombers. Most people solely credit Olajuwon for the series victory, due to his other-worldly stats, but utterly fail to mention that 3 games were decided by his shooters!

    a). For the series, the Rockets were 44 of 127 from downtown (for a respectable, but not great, 34.6%). Breaking it down further however, they were 13/29 in the 4th quarters (44.8%), and 9/17 in the "clutch" (52.9%) [5 minutes or less in a close game]. For being considered a “weak” team, that type of support will get it done every time. All the Greats have had the benefit of clutch shooting from their respective supporting casts on their way to rings. Robinson’s supporting casts NEVER gave him that sort of help. Olajowon’s did. It’s as simple as that.

    b). The Spurs, by contrast were 23 of 72 from downtown for the series (31.9%). 8/27 in 4th quarters (29.6%), and 4/13 in the the "clutch" (30.8%). In other words, the opposite trend.

    c). Last year, Amar'e scorched a Duncan-led Spurs team to the tune of 37 ppg (vs. Hakeem's 35.3 ppg in that ill-fated '95 series) [normalized, the difference is more prominent; Amar'e scored 0.89 points per minute vs. Hakeem's 0.81 points per minute]. The Spurs prevailed, largely in part to the Spurs' balanced attack (Spurs' "Big Three" of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili all averaged above 20 ppg for the series) and this squad could actually contribute from beyond 3-point territory (44/107 for 41.1%). Contrary to popular belief, not all of Amar'e's scoring came off of Nash's pick'n'roll sets. He excelled in the open court on transition baskets, 23% of his scoring came by way of the charity stripe, and another 18% of his baskets came off of isolation plays against Duncan or Nazr Mohammed. In other words, he was a prolific, all-around, scoring machine (by Spurs' defensive design, of course). That said, no one in their mind would claim that Amar'e is a better player than Duncan, but had the Suns won the series those stats could certainly be touted against Duncan to make the case. The point being, that CONTEXT is everything. And unfortunately for Robinson, the media and the casual fan have taken a lackadaisical approach by using the ‘95 series, and specifically ONE particular play that is played ad nauseam as the de facto series’ abridged summary [credit to Olajuwon] to tarnish Robinson’s place among the best. It certainly didn’t help that Robinson’s well-deserved MVP award was used as the ‘driver’ to hype up the drama between the two all-star centers, to help build up TV ratings for a series that largely failed to captivate the casual fan once the Spurs ousted the Lakers in the Conference Semifinals. Olajuwon further emphasized said ‘motivation’ only after his ticket to the Finals was secured, an expressed sentiment that unfortunately threw more dirt Robinson’s way. Olajuwon then made sure that the collective memory of that series would degrade Robinson's legacy forever and embellished the series outcome after the summer of 1996, when Robinson outplayed both him and Shaq for the starting gig on the Atlanta 1996 Dream Team II squad. In other words, Olajuwon is a -bag as a compe or. Never once did Robinson speak negatively about his contemporaries (Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc...), never once did he fabricate personal vendettas to hype up their head-to-head match ups [which Robinson holds over every one of those centers]. It's the 'good guy' persona that the media just absolutely hates. The media clamors for upstanding athletes, and role models but only because they make excellent news after they fall from grace or screw-up. David never did, so the only way they can knock him is by undermining his legacy.

  12. #137
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    Meh...regular season against a 20-62 team. He probably got the assists because Detroit stopped defending everyone else. I hate to "belittle" a quad-dub because it is an amazing achievement, but it doesn't demonstrate that he was a complete player at the level of Tim.

    Per 36 Dave has more Points, Blocks, Steals, and Shooting Percentage (FT and from both 2 and 3) than Tim.


    Similar in Assists (edge Tim), Turnovers (edge Dave), and Rebounds (edge Tim -- 11.0 to 11.5).
    Last edited by Skull-1; 01-13-2014 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #138
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Per 36 Dave has more Points, Blocks, Steals, and Shooting Percentage (FT and from both 2 and 3) than Tim.


    Similar in Assists (edge Tim), Turnovers (edge Dave), and Rebounds (edge Tim -- 11.0 to 11.5).
    One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 01-13-2014 at 05:31 PM.

  14. #139
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    One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...
    And Dave also had a season of almost 30 ppg. Tim never came close to that.


    Dave's 3rd best year is superior to Tim's best, and his fourth best is just under it by a fraction.

    Dave was a beast. Tim has never been anything close to prime Dave.

  15. #140
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    And Dave also had a season of almost 30 ppg. Tim never came close to that.


    Dave's 3rd best year is superior to Tim's best, and his fourth best is just under it by a fraction.

    Dave was a beast. Tim has never been anything close to prime Dave.
    Come to think of it, Tim was Robin to Dave's Batman. Pippen to Dave's Jordan. Prime Dave would squash prime Tim and it isn't even close. Look at the man's arms for freak sake! Timmy would be snapped like a twig!


    Tim was the little bit needed to get Dave over the top after years of overachievement with crap teams. The crazy expectation that the best player was enough to win it all.... Dave was that player...

  16. #141
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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  17. #142
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    it came naturally and he didn't have to work hard? Didn't have drive? Have you ever seen the guy? He is pushing fifty and is ripped like prime Arnold. You don't get that way without supreme effort. The guy always made the effort. And he didn't sulk off into the sunset with a Bronze. He went back and got two Golds. That's drive right there.
    He never had the drive to win the les like Tim did, period....... He never had that WILL TO WIN A SERIES and take over like TIM DID IN 99 or 03, period.
    Come to think of it, Tim was Robin to Dave's Batman. Pippen to Dave's Jordan. Prime Dave would squash prime Tim and it isn't even close. Look at the man's arms for freak sake! Timmy would be snapped like a twig!


    Tim was the little bit needed to get Dave over the top after years of overachievement with crap teams. The crazy expectation that the best player was enough to win it all.... Dave was that player...
    You are out of your ing mind....... Period.
    One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...
    And he still did not have the drive or will that Tim had in his prime to work on his game and win les. D ROB is a freak of nature like I said and was crazy! But he was not Tim when it came to fundamentals of the game nor will to win, period. Tim just had that extra gear he did not have. If DROB with that freak of nature skillset he had and athleticism had that will to win TIM Had he would be top 5 of all times and we all know this. DO PER and so on all you want but us true fans know Tim is the better player and always was the better player because of his skillset and his will to win the les. No comparison there. One was so gifted beyond belief with athleticism, the other just a drive like MJ and Kobe have had etc.

  18. #143
    Veteran Sean Cagney's Avatar
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    Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

    Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.
    YOUR DAMN RIGHT! MJ asked about a few today who could have played then, Tim was one of them right off the bat. These guys in here are fooling themselves now saying D ROB was better than Tim or near Tim in his prime! Tim was just on another level. D ROB was athletic as and a great player, but Tim was special! Tim is an all time great and the best at his position ever. I love Robinson but lets get real here folks without Tim blacking out in 99 and 03 D ROB has NO RINGS. Tim is just a better player overall and most will see that who study the game.

    Any true fan would see what you said here is 100% true and accurate, some clowns though in here will say well he had some better numbers etc. What you said is dead on and the truth.

  19. #144
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    YOUR DAMN RIGHT! MJ asked about a few today who could have played then, Tim was one of them right off the bat. These guys in here are fooling themselves now saying D ROB was better than Tim or near Tim in his prime! Tim was just on another level. D ROB was athletic as and a great player, but Tim was special! Tim is an all time great and the best at his position ever. I love Robinson but lets get real here folks without Tim blacking out in 99 and 03 D ROB has NO RINGS. Tim is just a better player overall and most will see that who study the game.

    Any true fan would see what you said here is 100% true and accurate, some clowns though in here will say well he had some better numbers etc. What you said is dead on and the truth.
    Plus, Dave himself openly admitted that Tim was better than him, and not just at their respective ages at the time. He always promoted the fact that Tim was the best player on earth, and on a higher level than himself. He knew it because it was undeniable.

    And I'm not ting on Dave either...I've got him top 20, which is hardly a slight. Despite his flaws, he WAS a beast on both ends in the mid 90s. We can appreciate them both while acknowledging Tim as superior.

  20. #145
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    I think a case can be made ... for Pau over Manu. Depending on if you are speaking STRICTLY on NBA career. I think HOF wise, Manu has the stronger case because he actually despite Spain's recent rise has been the more successful international player leading Argentina to to key wins over Pau when both were in their primes and Spain favored. I like Pau he is a great player and yes he gets bad rap from some laker fans.
    I was talking about NBA only(I don't put any value in international basketball). And yeah, it seems most objective bball fans have Pau above Manu on the all-time international lists. Dirk is well ahead of everybody else though.

    But what about spur fans up here who on Manu, Tony or even Pop? Only Duncan gets fair praise and criticism on this board by most fans tbh ...
    Spurs fans only on Pop to counter balance the ' s that label him the GOAT coach.

    Most of the Manu hate is because of his re ed decision to keep playing bball for Argentina when he should be resting. As a result, he spends large amounts of the season out with injury. Otherwise, Manu has a devoted fanbase on the forums.

    And the Parker hate is sometimes deserved. People do a 180 on him every time he puts up great regular season numbers. We get MVP threads and like "Parker's the best damn PG in league. LOL Chris Paul" Then the playoffs happens and his inability to step up in the post-season frustrates most fans. Compare that to Pau who's been a pretty good playoff performer for most of his career.

  21. #146
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    He never had the drive to win the les like Tim did, period....... He never had that WILL TO WIN A SERIES and take over like TIM DID IN 99 or 03, period.
    You are out of your ing mind....... Period.

    And he still did not have the drive or will that Tim had in his prime to work on his game and win les. D ROB is a freak of nature like I said and was crazy! But he was not Tim when it came to fundamentals of the game nor will to win, period. Tim just had that extra gear he did not have. If DROB with that freak of nature skillset he had and athleticism had that will to win TIM Had he would be top 5 of all times and we all know this. DO PER and so on all you want but us true fans know Tim is the better player and always was the better player because of his skillset and his will to win the les. No comparison there. One was so gifted beyond belief with athleticism, the other just a drive like MJ and Kobe have had etc.
    Don't get me wrong, I love Timmay... all he does is win, win, win. Of the two, Tim has had by far the most illustrious career, having the ability and drive to age gracefully without a dropoff in per minute production (which is why he is also on most people's top ten ever). But prime Robinson would have edged prime Duncan, simply because all else being equal he would have had the speed to blow by Duncan, while having the length to keep Tim's most prominent physical advantage (his own length) in check. That said, it's not a landslide either way (as Skull-1 claims for Robinson or yourself in Tim's favor). IMO out of 10 hypothetical head-to-head matchups, with both players in their prime, DRob takes 6.

    Addressing your calling out of Dave's 'drive factor'. I don't know how many other players (at 7 feet, no less - in which the complications abound even more) would have played 2 entire seasons with a herniated disc (let's ask Ryan Anderson how that's working out for him). And it's not like Robinson was taking the easy road by loading up on painkillers; in fact, he refused to take more than one shot per week to prevent permanent damage to his neuralogical system. It is under those conditions that he battled Shaq in the playoffs; when Shaq was a dominant opponent, and when most players (healthy or otherwise) would shy away from being subjected to The Diesel's abuse in the paint (simply from an overwhelming disparity in sheer force and power that Shaq had on most front court players). In all honesty, it downright sucks that the Spurs' fanbase is Robinson's biggest discreditor.

    Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.

  22. #147
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    Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.
    To add to this I think allot of people forget just how compe ive the NBA was in the 90's. It wasn't like it is today with only 2-3 dominate teams and the rest of the league being all crap like it is these days. You had a ton of HoFs all in their primes during those years. For Robinson to take scrub teams to all but one season with winning records was no feat to scoff at, and that one losing season being only because David was injured that whole year. Drob almost took his team all by himself to the finals a couple of times pre-Duncan. It amazes me how people keep bringing up the 95 series against Hakeem to bring Drob down a few notches. If Drob was on the Rockets with their roster and Hakeem was on the Spurs with what roster David had it would have been about the same outcome, but people would be talking about how Hakeem was dominated that series. Do people forget that this was the same Rockets team that won the Championship that year? Chuck Daily said it best during Drobs rookie year. He said he knew there was something special about David the first day he saw him play.
    Last edited by Chomag; 01-14-2014 at 05:52 PM.

  23. #148
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    What's with most of you questioning DRob's drive and will to win?!? Do you know him personally? Has he told you that he never worked on his body or his game?

    Please don't make the mistake if assuming that he accomplished what he did just because of his athleticism. Of course he was an outstanding athlete, but so were plenty of other guys in the NBA then like Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. David worked really hard on his game. Despite not picking up the game of basketball until his senior year of high school, he worked hard enough to put up incredible numbers as a junior and senior at Navy. He made another jump in his skills when he was a rookie, and again after his third year in the league.

    This was a critical offseason. David added about 15 pounds of muscle to his frame, and improved his offensive skills to allow him to increase his scoring average by about 6 ppg. It was at this time that he won the scoring le, MVP, and made the Spurs a legitimate contender. The fact that the Spurs couldn't get over the hump should not be blamed on David. Rather, David deserves the credit for putting the Spurs into contention in the first place. Remember, Jordan didn't win anything until he had Pippen and Horace Grant. And Barkley couldn't win it all despite having KJ, Ceballos, and Majerle. Malone couldn't win it despite having Stockton and Hornacek. Yet David's desire gets called into question for not winning a le with Elliott, Rodman, Avery Johnson, and Vinny Del Negro?!?

    I have decided that a lot of people decided that David's lack of drive is due to him being a nice guy who had a lot of other interests. It's a shame that these people forget how hard he played, what a great team leader he was, how many injuries he played through without complaining, and how much he hated to lose. I think these aspects of his career got overshadowed by what a good person he is. As much as I appreciate David Robinson the man, I hate that it causes some people to not realize the compe or he was.

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    Don't get me wrong, I love Timmay... all he does is win, win, win. Of the two, Tim has had by far the most illustrious career, having the ability and drive to age gracefully without a dropoff in per minute production (which is why he is also on most people's top ten ever). But prime Robinson would have edged prime Duncan, simply because all else being equal he would have had the speed to blow by Duncan, while having the length to keep Tim's most prominent physical advantage (his own length) in check. That said, it's not a landslide either way (as Skull-1 claims for Robinson or yourself in Tim's favor). IMO out of 10 hypothetical head-to-head matchups, with both players in their prime, DRob takes 6.

    Addressing your calling out of Dave's 'drive factor'. I don't know how many other players (at 7 feet, no less - in which the complications abound even more) would have played 2 entire seasons with a herniated disc (let's ask Ryan Anderson how that's working out for him). And it's not like Robinson was taking the easy road by loading up on painkillers; in fact, he refused to take more than one shot per week to prevent permanent damage to his neuralogical system. It is under those conditions that he battled Shaq in the playoffs; when Shaq was a dominant opponent, and when most players (healthy or otherwise) would shy away from being subjected to The Diesel's abuse in the paint (simply from an overwhelming disparity in sheer force and power that Shaq had on most front court players). In all honesty, it downright sucks that the Spurs' fanbase is Robinson's biggest discreditor.

    Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.
    Fair enough you are probably correct here..... I will say this is a great post.

    To say D ROB did not care is a joke, he after the Memorial Day Miracle was just jumping up and down like a little kid! Then seeing him in 03 Mavs series game 6 on the bench jumping up and down! He wanted to win his whole career and you could tell! The fact he went out on top you could tell also meant the world to him! 13 and 17 with the injuries and knees and back he had was just crazy in game 6 vs NJ! He said I will not play another night before that game, hence he went all out to win that game and proved that night he wanted to be a champ at 37! Tim at 37 did that last year with 31-17 but it's too bad they did not win that game or series. D ROB did want to win and I know that, but it just seems TIM has a drive like few others in this game and thats why I said what I said because he worked on his game so much while D ROB was just a pure natural athlete with all the gifts and Tim is just work and fundamentals who started playing BBALL later in his life (Swimmer first etc.) and went all out t learn the game.

  25. #150
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    What's with most of you questioning DRob's drive and will to win?!? Do you know him personally? Has he told you that he never worked on his body or his game?

    Please don't make the mistake if assuming that he accomplished what he did just because of his athleticism. Of course he was an outstanding athlete, but so were plenty of other guys in the NBA then like Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. David worked really hard on his game. Despite not picking up the game of basketball until his senior year of high school, he worked hard enough to put up incredible numbers as a junior and senior at Navy. He made another jump in his skills when he was a rookie, and again after his third year in the league.

    This was a critical offseason. David added about 15 pounds of muscle to his frame, and improved his offensive skills to allow him to increase his scoring average by about 6 ppg. It was at this time that he won the scoring le, MVP, and made the Spurs a legitimate contender. The fact that the Spurs couldn't get over the hump should not be blamed on David. Rather, David deserves the credit for putting the Spurs into contention in the first place. Remember, Jordan didn't win anything until he had Pippen and Horace Grant. And Barkley couldn't win it all despite having KJ, Ceballos, and Majerle. Malone couldn't win it despite having Stockton and Hornacek. Yet David's desire gets called into question for not winning a le with Elliott, Rodman, Avery Johnson, and Vinny Del Negro?!?

    I have decided that a lot of people decided that David's lack of drive is due to him being a nice guy who had a lot of other interests. It's a shame that these people forget how hard he played, what a great team leader he was, how many injuries he played through without complaining, and how much he hated to lose. I think these aspects of his career got overshadowed by what a good person he is. As much as I appreciate David Robinson the man, I hate that it causes some people to not realize the compe or he was.

    Well said. People see Dave's humility and graciousness as a lack of drive. Meanwhile, Tim's stoicism is seen as hyperdrive. Funny that same trait in McGrady is seen as apathy. Any way....

    Dave has character. He has downplayed his own accomplishments to compliment others. He has never done a thing to burnish his own legacy. He has sacrificed his rightful place to elevate people like Duncan. This should only heighten our awareness of what a special player he was. Also, he was a graduate of the Naval Academy. No small feat that is. The guy is a once in a lifetime player.

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