NBA: LOL: So Spur Fan Wants The World To Believe That Duncan Was Better Than Shaq and Kobe

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...rs-of-All-Time

Voting for #7:
Shaquille O'Neal = 102 votes
Kobe Bryant = 42 votes
Oscar Robertson = 15 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 10 votes
Tim Duncan = 10 votes
Jerry West = 3 votes
Julius Erving = 2 votes
Isiah Thomas = 2 vote
John Stockton = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote

Voting for #8:
Kobe Bryant = 102 votes
Tim Duncan = 65 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 59 votes
Oscar Robertson = 19 votes
Jerry West = 7 votes
Patrick Ewing = 5 votes
Lebron James = 4 votes
Isiah Thomas = 2 votes
Charles Barkley = 2 votes
Dirk Nowitzki = 2 votes
Karl Malone = 1 vote
Julius Erving = 1 vote
John Stockton = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote
Bob Cousy = 1 vote
Dwyane Wade = 1 vote
Moses Malone = 1 vote


Will be dismissed as fan voting, but spurfan will use evidence of another forum's top players list.

[Deuce Bigalow]

A closer look at the numbers.

For the le years 01, 02 and 04.
Kobe PTS/Lakers record (Winning %)

Regular Season
0-10 / 1-3 (25%)
11-20 / 35-17 (67%)
21-30 / 67-17 (80%)
31-40 / 35-12 (74%)
41-50 / 8-1 (89%)
50+ / 0-1 (0%)

Playoffs:
0-10 / 1-1 (50%)
11-20 / 9-5 (64%)
21-30 / 22-7 (76%)
31-40 / 9-4 (69%)
41-50 / 3-0 (100%)
50+ / N/A

So looking at it, there is obviously a correlation for anything over 20points vs. less than 20 points, but not within these groups. But then of course, as a 2nd banana, Kobe scores more when Shaq is being shut down, no surprises here.

Let's look at the 05-07 years, where Kobe was the undoubted #1 option on Lakers.

Regular Season:
0-10 / 1-1 (50%)
11-20 / 3-12 (20%)
21-30 / 21-23 (48%)
31-40 / 25-27 (48%)
41-50 / 20-12 (63%)
50+ / 4-2 (67%)

Playoffs
0-10 / N/A
11-20 / 1-0 (100%)
21-30 / 2-3 (40%)
31-40 / N/A
41-50 / N/A
50+ / 0-1 (0%)

Not as much or a correlation, in fact, pretty much no effect. So when Kobe is the lead guy, how many points he score doesn't necessarily translates into more wins.

2001 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Sacramento Kings
35.0 ppg 9.0 rpg 4.3 apg 47%fg 20%3P 86%FT

2001 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs
33.3 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.0 apg 51%fg 36%3P 77%FT

2003 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Minnesota Timberwolves
31.8 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.7 apg 43%fg 36%3P 87%FT

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets
33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz
33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs
29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets
34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic
32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz
32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns
33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT

ALL SERIES WINS. 9 30ppg series, another additional series with 29+ppg.

His other 4 30 ppg playoff series not listed were loses. So a 9-4 SERIES RECORD WHEN KOBE AVERAGES 30 PPG. .692 W%.

[ambchang]

2001 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Sacramento Kings
35.0 ppg 9.0 rpg 4.3 apg 47%fg 20%3P 86%FT

2001 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs
33.3 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.0 apg 51%fg 36%3P 77%FT

2003 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Minnesota Timberwolves
31.8 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.7 apg 43%fg 36%3P 87%FT

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets
33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz
33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs
29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets
34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic
32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz
32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns
33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT

ALL SERIES WINS. 9 30ppg series, another additional series with 29+ppg.

His other 4 30 ppg playoff series not listed were loses. So a 9-4 SERIES RECORD WHEN KOBE AVERAGES 30 PPG. .692 W%.

We all know Kobe can score when another team's defense is focusing on the best frontline in the NBA, allowing him open shots or single coverage all game. No surprises here.

[ambchang]

Wait wait what? Duncan has 2 scoring les? Duncan has reached the 30k club? Duncan has the 5th most 30pt games in nba history? Duncan has the 3rd most 40pt games in nba history? Duncan has the 3rd most 50 point games of alltime? Duncan has the 5 60 point games which is good for 2nd alltime? Duncan has the 3rd most playoff points ever? Duncan has the 2nd most 30 point playoff games ever? Duncan has 11 all nba first teams which is the most ever?

Wow! One "accolade" that didn't involve scoring. Do you want to list most points scored in a quarter, most quarters scoring 5 points or more, most quarters scoring 10 points or more, most halves scoring 7 points or more, most points scored on January 11th, most points scored in all star games, and other irrelevant scoring milestones? In other news, Monta Ellis > John Stockton.

As for the all-NBA teams ... let's see, voted by media, LA has the largest media .... which explains why Kobe was voted ahead of Westbrook and Parker last year.

Also you didn't respond to these links which are ALLTIME RANKINGS not decade or since 00, ALLTIME:

http://www.sportscity.com/whos-the-b...ry/2013/04/05/
http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/...players?page=5
Weird list but Kobe's still ahead lol http://m.voices.yahoo.com/counting-d...-12161861.html
http://m.ranker.com/crowdranked-list...rs-of-all-time
Found one with Duncan over Kobe! http://www.basesandbaskets.com/2012/...-time.html?m=1
http://www.clicktop10.com/2013/05/to...s-of-all-time/
Top 50 list http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/20...f-all-time/#45

And just lmao at spurfan using a poll by fans as evidence for Duncan being better when I posted MULTPLE fan voting results having Kirby curbstomping Duncan in votes and you guys dismissed it saying "lol at fan voting" when you are here posting what? Fan voting lmao. And one poll btw only.

Again, playing for a one of the largest media market in the world has something to do with it, no?

[ambchang]

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...rs-of-All-Time

Voting for #7:
Shaquille O'Neal = 102 votes
Kobe Bryant = 42 votes
Oscar Robertson = 15 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 10 votes
Tim Duncan = 10 votes
Jerry West = 3 votes
Julius Erving = 2 votes
Isiah Thomas = 2 vote
John Stockton = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote

Voting for #8:
Kobe Bryant = 102 votes
Tim Duncan = 65 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 59 votes
Oscar Robertson = 19 votes
Jerry West = 7 votes
Patrick Ewing = 5 votes
Lebron James = 4 votes
Isiah Thomas = 2 votes
Charles Barkley = 2 votes
Dirk Nowitzki = 2 votes
Karl Malone = 1 vote
Julius Erving = 1 vote
John Stockton = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote
Bob Cousy = 1 vote
Dwyane Wade = 1 vote
Moses Malone = 1 vote


Will be dismissed as fan voting, but spurfan will use evidence of another forum's top players list.

So .. Shaq > Kobe, and prime #7 + prime #8 had a 3-2 record in the playoffs against prime #10 and WAY out of prime #16. Makes perfect sense.

[AchillesHeel]

im talkin about those years he broke records, what did it equate to? = rings?

Kirby actually holds the NBA record for 3 straight playoff runs with 600+ points(2008-2010), MJ never did that and they won 2 rings during that time span. I thought it was an interesting fact/record.

[TDMVPDPOY]

kirbyfans living in the past...just like the asslickers upstairs....

lakers aint gong anywhere with the rapists on the payroll, same with the current sperms 3tosb

[Killakobe81]

Skills without results mean nothing. If a player A is more skilled than player B, but playerB is more dominant and easier to build around, nobody will pick player A as the better player.

Example: divac vs shaq.

Horrible example. Skilled or not who would take Divac? Wilt is more dominant yet some prefer Kareem ...dat is a better example ...do you try to be this dense or did you get lose some hoops iq points? You are better than this ...

[Koolaid_Man]

Horrible example. Skilled or not who would take Divac? Wilt is more dominant yet some prefer Kareem ...dat is a better example ...do you try to be this dense or did you get lose some hoops iq points? You are better than this ...

^ I like you Killa but I wouldn't be caught in a Foxhole with you homie ...you go take a in the woods and Spur fan will snipe you in the ass as you're pulling your pants up...you're just too nice a guy always giving Spur fan the benefit of the doubt...when you know they're weasels...

[Leetonidas]

Wait wait what? Duncan has 2 scoring les? Duncan has reached the 30k club? Duncan has the 5th most 30pt games in nba history? Duncan has the 3rd most 40pt games in nba history? Duncan has the 3rd most 50 point games of alltime? Duncan has the 5 60 point games which is good for 2nd alltime? Duncan has the 3rd most playoff points ever? Duncan has the 2nd most 30 point playoff games ever? Duncan has 11 all nba first teams which is the most ever?

Also you didn't respond to these links which are ALLTIME RANKINGS not decade or since 00, ALLTIME:

http://www.sportscity.com/whos-the-b...ry/2013/04/05/
http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/...players?page=5
Weird list but Kobe's still ahead lol http://m.voices.yahoo.com/counting-d...-12161861.html
http://m.ranker.com/crowdranked-list...rs-of-all-time
Found one with Duncan over Kobe! http://www.basesandbaskets.com/2012/...-time.html?m=1
http://www.clicktop10.com/2013/05/to...s-of-all-time/
Top 50 list http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/20...f-all-time/#45

And just lmao at spurfan using a poll by fans as evidence for Duncan being better when I posted MULTPLE fan voting results having Kirby curbstomping Duncan in votes and you guys dismissed it saying "lol at fan voting" when you are here posting what? Fan voting lmao. And one poll btw only.

lol who the cares about random like that. There is no award for being in the 30k club. Kobefan resorting to using points scored as some kind of point Keep reaching bro, eventually you'll find something worthy of debating with

b-b-but Kobe scored more points in the regular season than Timmy!

just sad that you're really resorting to using points scored as your defense when Timmy's work on defense outweighs any chucking by Kobe. Oh and cool story bro, he has him edged out in All-NBA teams barely? Does Kobe have 14 All-Defense selections? No? Was Kobe the only player in league history to be on the all-defensive team for the first 13 seasons of his career? Nope??? Just stop dude

[AchillesHeel]

lol who the cares about random like that. There is no award for being in the 30k club. Kobefan resorting to using points scored as some kind of point Keep reaching bro, eventually you'll find something worthy of debating with

You must forgive the Kobe stans. They don't know that there's this thing called defense. They only care about offensive production(points).

[Leetonidas]

Also ESPN has multiple Duncan finals performances in their greatest of all-time, go look at how many Kobe has

[Leetonidas]

You must forgive the Kobe stans. They don't know that there's this thing called defense. They only care about offensive production(points).

Waiting for him to bring up Kobe's bull all-defensive team nods as a defense against Tim ting on him there. In terms of total All-NBA awards, Kobe is at 14, Tim Duncan is at 13. Tim also made 1st team 8 straight seasons since his rookie year whereas Kobe didn't even crack first team until 2002.

Not to mention that Duncan played in an era filled with great PFs and centers, having to compete with players like Shaq, J. O'Neal, Webber, Nowitzki, Garnett, etc for his nods whereas Kobe's compe ion were chuckers like AI, players like VC who didn't have the drive, Jason Kidd, and McGrady who started declining with back problems. Wade was the only player who even came close to challenging Kobe. So a lot of his selections, while warranted, were also the product of the SG position sucking post-Jordan for the most part. SG has always been one of the weaker positions

[AchillesHeel]

Waiting for him to bring up Kobe's bull all-defensive team nods as a defense against Tim ting on him there. In terms of total All-NBA awards, Kobe is at 14, Tim Duncan is at 13. Tim also made 1st team 8 straight seasons since his rookie year whereas Kobe didn't even crack first team until 2002.

Not to mention that Duncan played in an era filled with great PFs and centers, having to compete with players like Shaq, J. O'Neal, Webber, Nowitzki, Garnett, etc for his nods whereas Kobe's compe ion were chuckers like AI, players like VC who didn't have the drive, Jason Kidd, and McGrady who started declining with back problems. Wade was the only player who even came close to challenging Kobe. So a lot of his selections, while warranted, were also the product of the SG position sucking post-Jordan for the most part. SG has always been one of the weaker positions

Especially when they changed the defensive rules in 05-06. look at how many wings averaged 20+ ppg that year. at least 20 players did.

[ambchang]

Horrible example. Skilled or not who would take Divac? Wilt is more dominant yet some prefer Kareem ...dat is a better example ...do you try to be this dense or did you get lose some hoops iq points? You are better than this ...

Is Divac or Shaq more skilled?

Skilled or not, who would take Kobe over Lebron?

Buddy, you came up with the skilled argument, and I am saying it's flawed.

KAJ was dominant as and was comparable to Wilt. Kobe's prime wasn't even comparable to Lebron's.

[Killakobe81]

Is Divac or Shaq more skilled?

Skilled or not, who would take Kobe over Lebron?

Who is more skilled Duncan or Shaq? Hakeem or Wilt?
Point being this was not about who would I take Again LeBron is the most dominant player I ever seen but MJ is more skilled I can see why some would prefer MJ ...that is a more apt comparison to my point. As Philip or someone else pointed out best can be defined plenty of ways. If Shaq or Duncan are in the same draft maybe evry team or 90% take Shaq. He is bigger more dominant etc. You argue Duncan is easier to build around yet Shaq is the player that has made the Finals with 3 different coaches and with 3 different supportiig casts. after David left Tim has had mostly the same core and the sane coach. Many rank Shaq over Tim on GOAT lists but I disagree. Shaq has the better prime, more dominant but Ivprefer Tim's higher skill level consistent greatness better clutch player. That is not all that hard to understand. Not saying Tim is the,best big he is just what I prefer.
As for Kobe LeBron same deal I would draft LeBron over Kobe if they were in the same draft he is the greater more dominant player his Herculean displays of athleticism and passing Kobe can not match. But if you watch them dribble, shoot footwork I prefer Kobe's game. He shoots too much for my taste but he is a fundamentally better skilled player. He is just not greater than LeBron who in the convo for GOAT while Kobe is not if he ever was ...

And its not only Laker fans U know a chick that is on scholarship for University Of Kansas many of their team prefer Kobe's game guys and girls team over James. Not that they are Laker fans but they just appreciate his footwork and ball skills.

[Killakobe81]

Is Divac or Shaq more skilled?

Skilled or not, who would take Kobe over Lebron?

Buddy, you came up with the skilled argument, and I am saying it's flawed.

KAJ was dominant as and was comparable to Wilt. Kobe's prime wasn't even comparable to Lebron's.

Buddy I agree LeBron's prime is more dominant, when did I argue otherwise?

[Killakobe81]

Waiting for him to bring up Kobe's bull all-defensive team nods as a defense against Tim ting on him there. In terms of total All-NBA awards, Kobe is at 14, Tim Duncan is at 13. Tim also made 1st team 8 straight seasons since his rookie year whereas Kobe didn't even crack first team until 2002.

Not to mention that Duncan played in an era filled with great PFs and centers, having to compete with players like Shaq, J. O'Neal, Webber, Nowitzki, Garnett, etc for his nods whereas Kobe's compe ion were chuckers like AI, players like VC who didn't have the drive, Jason Kidd, and McGrady who started declining with back problems. Wade was the only player who even came close to challenging Kobe. So a lot of his selections, while warranted, were also the product of the SG position sucking post-Jordan for the most part. SG has always been one of the weaker positions

Some valid points here Duncan is great and his position pf was much more competuve than what Shaq faced at center for his prime. However we also know Tim was a center playing pf and had a huge advantage over the peers you mention ...

[Leetonidas]

tbh considering that Robinson was the starter next to him for his first 6 years in the league and big Dave couldn't do jack outside of the basket area followed by slow as Rasho Nesterovic and Nazr Mohammed, then Oberto who couldn't do anything outside of the basket area, I don't think Duncan's prime was spent playing at the C position. I think people forget how mobile Tim was and the fact the he has always had a great midrange game. He was never a traditional lumbering C imo, he has only shifted into that role as the Spurs' personnel has changed and the league's PFs have all become stretch 4s and the traditional PF has become the C of today.

Really, he is a player who can dominate at both positions. Doesn't change that he is the best PF of all-time

[ambchang]

Who is more skilled Duncan or Shaq? Hakeem or Wilt?
Point being this was not about who would I take Again LeBron is the most dominant player I ever seen but MJ is more skilled I can see why some would prefer MJ ...that is a more apt comparison to my point. As Philip or someone else pointed out best can be defined plenty of ways. If Shaq or Duncan are in the same draft maybe evry team or 90% take Shaq. He is bigger more dominant etc. You argue Duncan is easier to build around yet Shaq is the player that has made the Finals with 3 different coaches and with 3 different supportiig casts. after David left Tim has had mostly the same core and the sane coach. Many rank Shaq over Tim on GOAT lists but I disagree. Shaq has the better prime, more dominant but Ivprefer Tim's higher skill level consistent greatness better clutch player. That is not all that hard to understand. Not saying Tim is the,best big he is just what I prefer.

I wouldn't call Wade Shaq's supporting cast, it was the other way around in 2006. As for Orlando, he was surrounded by three point shooters and a player similar to Kobe in Hardaway. Again, looking at advanced stats, Duncan was as dominant as Shaq, maybe slightly less so, but it is very comparable.

Duncan only won with one single head coach, but it's more to do with his career and choices than anything else. He won the finals with the 99/03/05 and 07 version of the Spurs, all very different makeups and philosophies. More importantly, those were entirely different eras of basketball, shifting from 90s thugball to a more open court league in the mid 00's.

I am not entirely sure 90% would draft Shaq over Duncan, especially when you factor in defense.

As for Kobe LeBron same deal I would draft LeBron over Kobe if they were in the same draft he is the greater more dominant player his Herculean displays of athleticism and passing Kobe can not match. But if you watch them dribble, shoot footwork I prefer Kobe's game. He shoots too much for my taste but he is a fundamentally better skilled player. He is just not greater than LeBron who in the convo for GOAT while Kobe is not if he ever was ...

Not the same situation. Shaq and Duncan was comparable in terms of dominance and effects on the game. Kobe and Lebron isn't, and that's my point. Vlade vs. Shaq was an extreme version of Kobe vs. Lebron.

And its not only Laker fans U know a chick that is on scholarship for University Of Kansas many of their team prefer Kobe's game guys and girls team over James. Not that they are Laker fans but they just appreciate his footwork and ball skills.

I couldn't care less, just like nobody cares that I appreciate Rony Seikaly's game or Brad Daughtery's game over Wilt's game.

Buddy I agree LeBron's prime is more dominant, when did I argue otherwise?

But how much more dominant is the question. KAJ ~ Wilt, Lebron >>>> Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wow! One "accolade" that didn't involve scoring. Do you want to list most points scored in a quarter, most quarters scoring 5 points or more, most quarters scoring 10 points or more, most halves scoring 7 points or more, most points scored on January 11th, most points scored in all star games, and other irrelevant scoring milestones? In other news, Monta Ellis > John Stockton.

As for the all-NBA teams ... let's see, voted by media, LA has the largest media .... which explains why Kobe was voted ahead of Westbrook and Parker last year.



Again, playing for a one of the largest media market in the world has something to do with it, no?

Spurfan continues to dismiss facts lmao

"irrelevant scoring milestones"

[ElNono]

lmao still posting links to fan popularity lists

[spurraider21]

there's a reason kobe is soon going to break the record for most field goals missed in NBA history (already does if you include playoffs). his scoring is a result of sheer volume

[Deuce Bigalow]

lmao still posting links to fan popularity lists

Deflecting and dismissing

[spurraider21]

also, a player's "skill" is irrelevant, compared to his effectiveness