Amateur: "MVP" Pau Gasol

[ElNono]

Kirbystans mad MVPau didn't quit

[Rogue]

Don't forget how good Odom was during the back to back.

and D-Fish is still doing a job in OKC even at age 39.

[Deuce Bigalow]

without either of them: 0 rings, 0 2nd round appearances... 1 lottery pick.

Just take away 15/18 years of his career...

Facts are that he won at least back to back without Shaq and without Pau.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce is the worst Lakers sophist yet. I actually prefer the machismo trolling over the willful ignorance and grandstanding on minutiae.

I did love him using 9 years of Finals stat padding in losing efforts as the basis for saying Jerry West was a top 5 player.

I put Jerry at #10 not top 5. Reason is because he was a top 10 playoff performer in NBA history and top 5 Finals performer in NBA history.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Aren't those media awards that you Kobe fans scoff at?

Duncan: 2 MVPs
Kobe: 1 MVP

Duncan = twice as good as Kobe.

They played on the same team from '08-'13 and Kobe was top 5 in MVP voting each time while Pau was top nothing.

[ambchang]

"MVP" Pau never received an MVP vote in his career. Not a single point.

changing goal post. You opened a thread about the effects of Lakers without MVPau, and after getting hammered on it, is moving onto another topic of MVP votes.

Does it matter if he got an MVP vote? He is the MVP of the Lakers, and he consistently backed it up.

How did "MVP" Pau do in Memphis? He led his team to a 10-29 record in 07-08. MVPau doe. WS doe.

Not knowing how to read. MVPau had those WS/48 on the Lakers, where he had a coach that knows how to use him, and supporting players like Kobe that magnifies his effectiveness.

And since you are talking about Memphis, they were 10-29 with him, and about the same winning percentage without him. The problem wasn't Gasol though, it's having Rudy Gay having a higher usage rate because the team was looking to trade MVPau the entire year, and looking to transition the team to Gay. It's a decision that cost the Grizzlies greatly. The Grizzlies were looking to tank and rebuild, and is taking the ball away from MVPau, and they paid dearly for it.

However, on a contending team, like the Lakers, let's see what his effects were:
Lakers without MVPau: 35-20 (64% winning %)
Lakers with MVPau: 22-5 (81%)

That's the difference between a 52 win pace season (7th seed in the west that year) vs. a 67 win pace season (1st seed, by a MILE, or one of the best teams ever).

I guess there isn't much of a WS fail right there.

[ambchang]

They played on the same team from '08-'13 and Kobe was top 5 in MVP voting each time while Pau was top nothing.

Thanks for telling me that Duncan is twice the player Kobe is.

Duncan: simply twice as good as Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"He [Gasol] is the MVP of the Lakers"
-ambchang

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thanks for telling me that Duncan is twice the player Kobe is.

Kobe and Duncan played on the same team? Christ!

[King Emmanuel]

I agree... kobe bryant is the real mvp of those 2009-10 teams

[ambchang]

Kobe and Duncan played on the same team? Christ!

MVP votes is a league wide award. What does not playing on the same team have anything to do with it.

avoiding the records with and without MVPau like a plague
getting your head handed to you on a silver platter on your own thread
thread backfired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I put Jerry at #10 not top 5. Reason is because he was a top 10 playoff performer in NBA history and top 5 Finals performer in NBA history.

Lost 9 out of 9 Finals until Wilt was brought in to carry him to his only le. .336 winning % and 27 ppg makes you a stat padder else Kevin Love would be MVP.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lost 9 out of 9 Finals until Wilt was brought in to carry him to his only le. .336 winning % and 27 ppg makes you a stat padder else Kevin Love would be MVP.

Are you re ed?

Wilt played with West in 4 of those 9 Finals, with 3 of the 4 being losses.

West CARRIED the Lakers in the 1969 Finals.

1969 NBA Finals
Game 1: 53 points, 3 rebounds, 10 assists, 21-41 FG, 11-13 FT
Summary:

53 points, 10 assists and a 4th quarter comeback engineered by West was the catalyst for Bill Russell to exclaim "I have never seen a better clutch player than Jerry West" immediately following the Celtics loss. After a back and forth first 3 quarters that saw 21 lead changes, Boston, on the back of Havlicek's relentless scoring, managed to eek ahead by 7 points with just 10 minutes remaining. It was West's seventeen 4th quarter points that brought the Lakers back into it, and they were just 1 point behind with around 2 minutes to go. West then put the finishing touches on his vituoso performance by making back to back elbow jumpers and burying 2 crucial free throws that put L.A up by 3 points with 4 seconds left.

Game 2: 41 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 12-22 FG, 17-20 FT
Game 3: 24 points, 1 rebounds, 6 assists, 9-24 FG, 6-7 FT
Game 4: 40 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 15-30 FG, 10-10 FT
Game 5: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 9 assists, 16-31 FG, 7-8 FT
Game 6: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 9-19 FG, 8-11 FT
Game 7: 42 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists, 14-29 FG, 14-18 FT
Summary:

The season long fued between Wilt Chamberlain and Butch van Breda Kolff (Caused mostly by Wilt) finally came to a head. After jarring his knee with around 5 minutes left in the final period, Wilt wanted out of the game, which Breda Kolff duly granted. But when Wilt asked to come back in a couple of minutes later Breda Kolff ignored him before finally declaring "We're playing better without you" (To be fair, they were). Whilst all this was going on, West, still playing with a sore left hamstring, was single handily leading a furious Laker charge. Seemingly every trip down the court he was swishing mid range jumper after mid range jumper or getting to the line and making free throw after free throw (5/7 FGs & 7/9 FTs in the 4th), until, finally, running out of steam with around 3 minutes left. The Celtics, of course, ran away with it from there. West, who finished with a 42/13/12, deserved a little help.

Series average: 37.9 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.4 apg, 49.0 fg%, 83.9 ft%

[spurraider21]

Those are the facts, facts are stuff spurfan like to ignore.

Bonus facts:
Without Pau: 3 Championships, 4 Finals, 391-170 Regular season, 76-43 Playoffs
Without Shaq: 2 Championships, 3 Finals, 422-262 Regular season, 59-42 Playoffs

post the numbers without Shaq or Pau

[ElNono]

This will be a great game to lose. Get within 2 on the win column for the 3rd spot.

[ambchang]

http://i.imgur.com/oEYfsKj.gif

kobestans running into facts.

[King Emmanuel]

Kobe bryant will return and be at about a 20/5/5 level

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i.imgur.com/oEYfsKj.gif

kobestans running into facts.

You want facts?

Boiled down:
Kobe 5
Duncan 4

Finals:
Kobe 7
Duncan 5

Series with HCA:
Kobe 27-2
Duncan 26-6

Kobe's 06 and 07 seasons > any Duncan season

Kobe's 01, 08, 09, 10 postseasons were better than any Duncan postseasons besides 03

Kobe: 2 scoring les, 3 playoff scoring les
Duncan: never led the league in anything

Kobe > Duncan

Let us proceed

[whitemamba]

You want facts?

Boiled down:
Kobe 5
Duncan 4

Finals:
Kobe 7
Duncan 5

Series with HCA:
Kobe 27-2
Duncan 26-6

Kobe's 06 and 07 seasons > any Duncan season

Kobe's 01, 08, 09, 10 postseasons were better than any Duncan postseasons besides 03

Kobe: 2 scoring les, 3 playoff scoring les
Duncan: never led the league in anything

Kobe > Duncan

Let us proceed

relax, ambchang might kill himself.

[ambchang]

You want facts?

Boiled down:
Kobe 5
Duncan 4

Finals:
Kobe 7
Duncan 5

Series with HCA:
Kobe 27-2
Duncan 26-6

Always defaults to team success to compare individuals.

Derek Fisher > Duncan.
Horry > Kobe.

MVPs:
Duncan 2, Kobe 1
Finals MVP
Duncan 3, Kobe 2 (one after shooting 6-24 )

Kobe's 06 and 07 seasons > any Duncan season

In what capacity? Kobe's career high WS was 15.3 (.224 per 48 minutes). Duncan had 2 seasons of higher WS and 5 seasons of higher WS/48

Kobe's 01, 08, 09, 10 postseasons were better than any Duncan postseasons besides 03

Kobe's playoff high WS/48 was .260, Duncan a ws/48 of .279 in 02-03.

Kobe: 2 scoring les, 3 playoff scoring les
Duncan: never led the league in anything

Duncan led the playoffs in:
ws twice
ws/48 once
defensive rating once
block % once
PER twice
blocks per game twice (but it's not scoring, so it's not anything)
total rebounds four times
total blocks three times.

In the regular season:
WS twice
DWS 5 times
OWS once
DRating four times

Kobe > Duncan

Let us proceed

Don't want to talk about MVPau's impact on the Lakers anymore
Don't want to talk about MVPs anymore
Anything that is not scoring shouldn't count.

EDIT:
John Stockton led the league in assists 9 times, Magic "only" did it 4 times.

Stockton > Magic

[Clipper Nation]

Stat getting destroyed ITT by Amb

[Deuce Bigalow]

Always defaults to team success to compare individuals.


Derek Fisher > Duncan.
Horry > Kobe.

Fisher and Horry were all-nba first teamers? Scoring champions? League MVPs? Finals MVPs? Were leading scorers in playoff series en route to championships?

MVPs:
Duncan 2, Kobe 1
Finals MVP
Duncan 3, Kobe 2 (one after shooting 6-24 )

As if I haven't destroyed this argument before.

Kobe's 06 season (35/5/5 on 56%TS) and Kobe's 07 season (32/6/5 on 58%TS) are years where Kobe did not win MVP but was better than Duncan ever was.

Kobe's '09 (30/5/6 on 56%TS) and '10 (29/6/6 on 57%TS) championship runs were beter than any playoff run that Duncan has had except for '03. Duncan also won a pathetic FMVP where Manu was the actual MVP of the 05 Finals. Manu was the leading scorer per minute (.520 vs .505) and shot a 63.7%TS compared to Duncan's horrific 47.1%TS. Duncan somehow won the award as a big man scoring 144 points on 129 shots Manu was 131 points on 85 shots vs an elite defense and his great effenciency (56.5 eFG%) was the difference in a series of two great defenses. Manu also led the team in FG% besides Rasho who barely even played.

Kobe's '02 Finals where he didn't win FMVP (27/6/5 on 63%TS) is so much better than Duncan's 05 FMVP or I should say "FMVP".

BTW I see you brought up efficiency, Duncan shot 10/27 for 25 points in game 7, guess what the real MVP shot? 23 points on 8/13 FG, 2/2 3P, 5/5 FT, giving GINOBILILIIIIII! a TS of 75.7% in the game.

Also lets's compare Kobe's '10 FMVP efficency to Duncan's '05 "one".

TS%
.471
.528 (Kobe)

eFG%
.419
.451 (Kobe)

so laugh at 6/24 even though including that game which ruined Kobe's efficiency, his efficiency for the series was still better by a large margin despite the position difference
And Kobe took 24 shots to score 23, Duncan took 27 shots to score 25...so was Duncan even more efficienct in that lone game comparison?

In what capacity? Kobe's career high WS was 15.3 (.224 per 48 minutes). Duncan had 2 seasons of higher WS and 5 seasons of higher WS/48

Real stats please. What was the ppg, rpg, apg, ect? No one cares about WS/48 clown.

Kobe's playoff high WS/48 was .260, Duncan a ws/48 of .279 in 02-03.

I already gave you 03 postseason to duncan based on his real numbers of 25/15/5 with 4blk? and good efficiency, but Kobe has the next 4 best postseasons when you compare the stats.

Duncan led the playoffs in:
ws twice
ws/48 once
defensive rating once
block % once
PER twice
blocks per game twice (but it's not scoring, so it's not anything)
total rebounds four times
total blocks three times.

In the regular season:
WS twice
DWS 5 times
OWS once
DRating four times

so in other words he never led the league in anything

ppg? No
rpg? No
apg? No
spg? No
bpg? No
fg% no
ft% no

Don't want to talk about MVPau's impact on the Lakers anymore
Don't want to talk about MVPs anymore
Anything that is not scoring shouldn't count.

Pau did make an impact and was the 2nd biggest reason why Kobe won #4 and 5.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Stat getting destroyed ITT by Amb

[Jodelo]

Stat getting owned, per par.

[ambchang]

Fisher and Horry were all-nba first teamers? Scoring champions? League MVPs? Finals MVPs? Were leading scorers in playoff series en route to championships?

You are arguing in circles.

Duncan > Kobe: But Kobe 5, Duncan 4
Then Horry > Kobe: But League MVPs, Finals MVPs
Then Duncan > Kobe: But Kobe 5, Duncan 4.

This is as circular logic as you can get. You are contradicting yourself with your own "criteria"

As if I haven't destroyed this argument before.

Kobe's 06 season (35/5/5 on 56%TS) and Kobe's 07 season (32/6/5 on 58%TS) are years where Kobe did not win MVP but was better than Duncan ever was.

Kobe's '09 (30/5/6 on 56%TS) and '10 (29/6/6 on 57%TS) championship runs were beter than any playoff run that Duncan has had except for '03. Duncan also won a pathetic FMVP where Manu was the actual MVP of the 05 Finals. Manu was the leading scorer per minute (.520 vs .505) and shot a 63.7%TS compared to Duncan's horrific 47.1%TS. Duncan somehow won the award as a big man scoring 144 points on 129 shots Manu was 131 points on 85 shots vs an elite defense and his great effenciency (56.5 eFG%) was the difference in a series of two great defenses. Manu also led the team in FG% besides Rasho who barely even played.

So wait, hold on a second. Your main argument through out has been saying Kobe had better stats than Duncan because he scored more points with a lower FG%. But now, Manu > Duncan because he scored less points but had a higher FG%? You schizophrenic or something?

Kobe's '02 Finals where he didn't win FMVP (27/6/5 on 63%TS) is so much better than Duncan's 05 FMVP or I should say "FMVP".

BTW I see you brought up efficiency, Duncan shot 10/27 for 25 points in game 7, guess what the real MVP shot? 23 points on 8/13 FG, 2/2 3P, 5/5 FT, giving GINOBILILIIIIII! a TS of 75.7% in the game.

Oh noes! Duncan shot 10/27, which is a, get this ..... 37% FG%. Not sure where you took math, but 37% is about 12 % > 25%. So are you saying Kobe didn't deserve the 10 "FMVP"?

Also lets's compare Kobe's '10 FMVP efficency to Duncan's '05 "one".

TS%
.471
.528 (Kobe)

eFG%
.419
.451 (Kobe)

so laugh at 6/24 even though including that game which ruined Kobe's efficiency, his efficiency for the series was still better by a large margin despite the position difference
And Kobe took 24 shots to score 23, Duncan took 27 shots to score 25...so was Duncan even more efficienct in that lone game comparison?

As if comparing TS% is not ridiculously biased because of 3pt shooting and FT shooting. You have been educated millions of times on this, and comparing TS% of a guard to a big man is like comparing rebounding between a PF and a G, it's stupid.

Real stats please. What was the ppg, rpg, apg, ect? No one cares about WS/48 clown.

Those are real stats, takes someone with an IQ >48 to understand, but given you can go on the internet, I assume you have an IQ>48.

I already gave you 03 postseason to duncan based on his real numbers of 25/15/5 with 4blk? and good efficiency, but Kobe has the next 4 best postseasons when you compare the stats.

So even in your extremely biased view, Duncan had the best postseason of the two, great! Never mind Spurs play in a MUCH lower paced game, and is much more emphasized on defense where low scoring games are the norm.

so in other words he never led the league in anything

ppg? No
rpg? No
apg? No
spg? No
bpg? No
fg% no
ft% no


Pau did make an impact and was the 2nd biggest reason why Kobe won #4 and 5.

LOL, someone leading the league in FG% is better than someone who never lead the league in those 7 categories you listed? James Donaldson > Clyde Drexler, Dirk, and Pippen.

Just when I thought you can't put up dumber arguments, you come on as a full on re . The IQ bar for a Kobestan is getting lower and lower.