Analysis of Spurs Perimeter Defense against OKC

[Splits]

Running players off the 3pt line don't have to include jumping at them. The vast majority of NBA players (including most of the Spurs in most of the hard closeouts) actually do not do that. I don't know a single coach that thinks that leaving your feet when you're running full speed at a shooter is a good idea. That's not to say that some players do actually do it *occasionally*. I know Manu, Kawhi, Marco have done it. It's simply a risky move. Once you're in the air, you no longer have control of where you're going to land, and some players will make you pay for it (which is where this argument started from). I'm speaking generally. Not every player will make you pay, and not every play that involves a player jumping at a shooter is bad defense.

Chinook argument is that jumping at them is actually better than putting a hand up on them, and while I respect his opinion, I don't think that's accurate either. There's actually reasons why coaches teach to defend the jump shot the way players do. For example, there's a reason why you should use only one hand up as opposed to both hands up (defending with both hands up increases the possibility of contact with the shooter's elbows, which is a foul most of the time).

I don't necessarily have a problem if Danny thinks he's athletic enough to get up there and actually block a release. He might've actually been successful at that at some point. I just don't think it's a wise idea to do it as often as he does it. Just my opinion though.

I'm not debating the effectiveness of the flybye. I could go either way, I see your point but I lean towards Chi's. What I am debating is whether this is Danny's "choice" or if he's instructed to close out this way. This is not the type of thing coaches, especially Pop, ignore. They teach players to do it one way or the other, and obviously with the number of flybyes Green has compiled this season it is something he's instructed to do. I'm sure it is something they discuss, scrimmage, watch tape on, and have a system in place for when you should flybye on a closeout and when you should not.

That's especially true when he has to sag off his corner-3 guy to help on Durant: http://tinypic.com/r/2m7bz3o/8

[ElNono]

I'm not debating the effectiveness of the flybye. I could go either way, I see your point but I lean towards Chi's. What I am debating is whether this is Danny's "choice" or if he's instructed to close out this way. This is not the type of thing coaches, especially Pop, ignore. They teach players to do it one way or the other, and obviously with the number of flybyes Green has compiled this season it is something he's instructed to do. I'm sure it is something they discuss, scrimmage, watch tape on, and have a system in place for when you should flybye on a closeout and when you should not.

That's especially true when he has to sag off his corner-3 guy to help on Durant: http://tinypic.com/r/2m7bz3o/8

I don't think Pop instructs him to do that at all. I think in the case of Danny, because how often he does it, it's entirely habit. Thanks for the video, I actually think it's less of a problem against not-so-savvy players like Sefolosha or Butler, but players like Fisher will simply pumpfake then jump at him and draw the foul. It's an unnecessary bailout, and again, I don't think a coach wants that at all. A hard-close? Sure. Jumping at the shooter? I don't think so. Just my 2c.

[Splits]

I don't think Pop instructs him to do that at all. I think in the case of Danny, because how often he does it, it's entirely habit. Thanks for the video, I actually think it's less of a problem against not-so-savvy players like Sefolosha or Butler, but players like Fisher will simply pumpfake then jump at him and draw the foul. It's an unnecessary bailout, and again, I don't think a coach wants that at all. A hard-close? Sure. Jumping at the shooter? I don't think so. Just my 2c.

Yeah, don't agree on a couple of points. As I said, this isn't something a coach like Pop ignores. If players, Danny in particular, were coached to not do this and they continued to do it on the reg, Pop would lose his lid and bench him immediately while cussing him out on the way to the pine. It's not nuance, it is an integral part of the design of the defense. Secondly, and you can see it in the clip I posted, the defender actually has much more control in the flybye move to avoid a foul call than if they go straight up or lean in with 1 hand, and allow the shooter to initiate contact with their arms or kick out a leg. Very rarely does the flybye defender get called for a foul. Just watch the CP3 foul on Westbrook that cost them game 5. CP3 contests the shot in the "honest" way by going straight up, but there's contact on the wrist and Chimpy gets 3 foodstamps. If you watch Green on that Sef flybye, he has control over his arms and body in the air and at the last moment pulls back to avoid the contact. There's no chance he's going to get called for a foul. And moreover he still recovers to contest the 2 (which is a shot Pop will live with if Sef drains it).

I think it is all by design, a feature not a bug, especially with Danny given the defensive assignments he is given.

[Chinook]

I don't think Pop instructs him to do that at all. I think in the case of Danny, because how often he does it, it's entirely habit. Thanks for the video, I actually think it's less of a problem against not-so-savvy players like Sefolosha or Butler, but players like Fisher will simply pumpfake then jump at him and draw the foul. It's an unnecessary bailout, and again, I don't think a coach wants that at all. A hard-close? Sure. Jumping at the shooter? I don't think so. Just my 2c.

I think you're underestimating the level of skill Green has when doing his "fly-by". He doesn't just barrel past them. He flies by them diagonally and away from them. I don't think it's very possible at all for a shooter to pump-fake and jump into him, because the shooter would have to essentially "catch" Green as Danny flies by. Not only is that not easy to do, but it's also something the league is trying to deter by making such moves offensive fouls. Even savvy Fisher had to wait until Mills passed by him before he could move.

The reason why (I think that) jumping on hard-closes is more effective is because it creates a bigger obstruction for the shooter. When you just run by with your hand up, you're not doing anything different from a soft-close besides getting out of the play. The shooter doesn't half to worry about you blocking the shot, and they can both reset and drive without fear of their defender. When a player jumps during their hard-close, they're essentially eliminating any chance that the shooter can get off a shot, since the defender is blocking all possible archs outside of rainbow shots. This forces the shooter to wait until the defender passes, which both messes up the rhythm of the shooter and allows for the rotating man to get to the shooter. In Green's case, he's not actually trying to block the shot; he's just trying to be enough of a threat to block the shot that the shooter doesn't get off a look.

As far as being out of control goes. I cited the five time last game that soft-closes led to loss of containment. This happened because the closing man was out of control and allowed the shooter to drive past them. Soft-closing requires a defender to stop on a spot, whereas hard-closes allow a player to run through or at least jump up to release some momentum. It's a lot easier (in my opinion) to avoid fouling jumping past (and away from) a player than it is trying to stop on a dime right in front of a player with a hand up.

[spurraider21]

BTW, I also make my Italian heritage proud, and I'm a hardheaded mofo, so don't even try

Philotalian, imo

[ElNono]

Yeah, don't agree on a couple of points. As I said, this isn't something a coach like Pop ignores. If players, Danny in particular, were coached to not do this and they continued to do it on the reg, Pop would lose his lid and bench him immediately while cussing him out on the way to the pine. It's not nuance, it is an integral part of the design of the defense. Secondly, and you can see it in the clip I posted, the defender actually has much more control in the flybye move to avoid a foul call than if they go straight up or lean in with 1 hand, and allow the shooter to initiate contact with their arms or kick out a leg. Very rarely does the flybye defender get called for a foul. Just watch the CP3 foul on Westbrook that cost them game 5. CP3 contests the shot in the "honest" way by going straight up, but there's contact on the wrist and Chimpy gets 3 foodstamps. If you watch Green on that Sef flybye, he has control over his arms and body in the air and at the last moment pulls back to avoid the contact. There's no chance he's going to get called for a foul. And moreover he still recovers to contest the 2 (which is a shot Pop will live with if Sef drains it).

I think it is all by design, a feature not a bug, especially with Danny given the defensive assignments he is given.

I think there's no actual empirical evidence of anything being "better" than anything else, it's just a matter of common sense and playing the odds. Jumping into a defender that bought a pumpfake is actually pretty common and 'savvy' move by a lot of vets out there, so that's why jumping towards the shooter is generally a no-no (pardon the pun). I also think Pop has been much more "loose" since Gino came around as far as balancing what players give him overall vs specific "mistakes". Not every player is a fundamentally sound player, but they don't have to be if what they bring to the table works and outdoes any detriment. I think that's been largely the case with a lot of out roster. Tiago sometimes can drive you up a wall finishing at the basket, and I'm sure Pop doesn't tell him to be a pansy around the rim, but I don't expect Pop to pull him out, especially if he's having a solid defensive game.

From the get go, I said I love Danny and love 90% of what he does out there, this whole thing is really nitpicking at areas where I think he can get better at (which also includes developing better handles).

[Chinook]

Yeah, don't agree on a couple of points. As I said, this isn't something a coach like Pop ignores. If players, Danny in particular, were coached to not do this and they continued to do it on the reg, Pop would lose his lid and bench him immediately while cussing him out on the way to the pine. It's not nuance, it is an integral part of the design of the defense. Secondly, and you can see it in the clip I posted, the defender actually has much more control in the flybye move to avoid a foul call than if they go straight up or lean in with 1 hand, and allow the shooter to initiate contact with their arms or kick out a leg. Very rarely does the flybye defender get called for a foul. Just watch the CP3 foul on Westbrook that cost them game 5. CP3 contests the shot in the "honest" way by going straight up, but there's contact on the wrist and Chimpy gets 3 foodstamps. If you watch Green on that Sef flybye, he has control over his arms and body in the air and at the last moment pulls back to avoid the contact. There's no chance he's going to get called for a foul. And moreover he still recovers to contest the 2 (which is a shot Pop will live with if Sef drains it).

I think it is all by design, a feature not a bug, especially with Danny given the defensive assignments he is given.

It's relatively easy to get contact on fly-bys if the defender runs either straight past the shooter or especially perpendicular to him. Those lead to the defender being too close and clipping an arm or a leg. The major benefit of Green jumping is that he doesn't actually have to be all that close to the shooter to obstruct his shot, since he's blocking more airspace. So he's not in any danger of touching his man at any point. That supports mine and your point that Green's jumps are very much controlled. Danny's a very savvy defender, not a monkey-baller. He uses his athleticism very well to augment his defense while not being a slave to it as players like Corey Brewer are.

[ElNono]

I think you're underestimating the level of skill Green has when doing his "fly-by". He doesn't just barrel past them. He flies by them diagonally and away from them. I don't think it's very possible at all for a shooter to pump-fake and jump into him, because the shooter would have to essentially "catch" Green as Danny flies by. Not only is that not easy to do, but it's also something the league is trying to deter by making such moves offensive fouls. Even savvy Fisher had to wait until Mills passed by him before he could move.

The reason why (I think that) jumping on hard-closes is more effective is because it creates a bigger obstruction for the shooter. When you just run by with your hand up, you're not doing anything different from a soft-close besides getting out of the play. The shooter doesn't half to worry about you blocking the shot, and they can both reset and drive without fear of their defender. When a player jumps during their hard-close, they're essentially eliminating any chance that the shooter can get off a shot, since the defender is blocking all possible archs outside of rainbow shots. This forces the shooter to wait until the defender passes, which both messes up the rhythm of the shooter and allows for the rotating man to get to the shooter. In Green's case, he's not actually trying to block the shot; he's just trying to be enough of a threat to block the shot that the shooter doesn't get off a look.

As far as being out of control goes. I cited the five time last game that soft-closes led to loss of containment. This happened because the closing man was out of control and allowed the shooter to drive past them. Soft-closing requires a defender to stop on a spot, whereas hard-closes allow a player to run through or at least jump up to release some momentum. It's a lot easier (in my opinion) to avoid fouling jumping past (and away from) a player than it is trying to stop on a dime right in front of a player with a hand up.

Look at that video. It doesn't matter if he's not going straight at them. It takes a simple jump to the left from Sefo to draw the foul on a guy that's in mid-air. That will be called a foul 99 times out of 100. If he's jumping behind the 3 point line, it's 3 free throws, and a foul for Danny. I will simply never agree that's the "better" play. You want to get to Sefo, you want to invade his personal space, and put a hand up. If you're coming in too hot, run past him, then recover.

[ElNono]

Philotalian, imo

this is one of those things that are non-negotiable for me... Danny could be a professional contortionist, but once you're in the air, you're in the air, and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, IMO.

[ElNono]

Anyways, I've derailed this thread enough (although the OP did mention some of this), and that wasn't my intention. I'm sure we'll have plenty of opportunities to discuss this again with Chinook in the future.

[Splits]

The "is the flybye closeout by design" is the type of question that some up-and-coming intrepid reporter (I'm looking at you @JMcDonald_SAEN!) should ask Pop. It's the type of question he would probably be glad to answer since it has relevance, tbh.

[Chinook]

Look at that video. It doesn't matter if he's not going straight at them. It takes a simple jump to the left from Sefo to draw the foul on a guy that's in mid-air. That will be called a foul 99 times out of 100. If he's jumping behind the 3 point line, it's 3 free throws, and a foul for Danny. I will simply never agree that's the "better" play. You want to get to Sefo, you want to invade his personal space, and put a hand up. If you're coming in too hot, run past him, then recover.

You don't want to let Sef shoot. You want him to drive. He won't drive if you "invade his personal space." If you don't threaten to block the shot, and also don't allow a driving lane, then you're asking him to shoot the three anyway, which is what happens on soft-closes against elite shooters.

As far as the video goes. I think you're stretching it. Going from having your feet set to shoot to exploding to the side to catch up to a player who's moving away from you is not "simple" at all. In fact, it's nearly impossible, which is why that almost never happens. For the most part players who jump into leaping players after pump-faking do so because the leaping player is moving toward the shooter. Not only does it make it much more feasible for a shooter to jump into the defender, it also eliminates the offensive foul because the defender is invading the shooters' space. A jump like in the video is the opposite. Shooters trying to draw that type of contact is the very thing the NBA has instructed their officials to not reward (and even to punish) this season.

[ElNono]

You don't want to let Sef shoot. You want him to drive. He won't drive if you "invade his personal space." If you don't threaten to block the shot, and also don't allow a driving lane, then you're asking him to shoot the three anyway, which is what happens on soft-closes against elite shooters.

As far as the video goes. I think you're stretching it. Going from having your feet set to shoot to exploding to the side to catch up to a player who's moving away from you is not "simple" at all. In fact, it's nearly impossible, which is why that almost never happens. For the most part players who jump into leaping players after pump-faking do so because the leaping player is moving toward the shooter. Not only does it make it much more feasible for a shooter to jump into the defender, it also eliminates the offensive foul because the defender is invading the shooters' space. A jump like in the video is the opposite. Shooters trying to draw that type of contact is the very thing the NBA has instructed their officials to not reward (and even to punish) this season.

Well, we don't agree. I think if Sefo was savvy enough, he would have near zero problem drawing a foul in that situation. Furthermore, the fact that nowadays there's any discussion about the "verticality rule" (which means the only way it's not a foul on any contact is if you're jumping up and only up), pretty much ensures that any kind of contact, drawn or otherwise on a flyby is pretty much an automatic foul.

You're my guy Chinook and I really appreciate reading your stuff, I agree with a lot of it, but this is one area where we're clearly not going to agree. It's all good, and I'm sure we'll touch on it again at some point in the future. Feel free to have the last word on this.

[ElNono]

The "is the flybye closeout by design" is the type of question that some up-and-coming intrepid reporter (I'm looking at you @JMcDonald_SAEN!) should ask Pop. It's the type of question he would probably be glad to answer since it has relevance, tbh.

I don't think Pop is keen to talk about that stuff... you could lift some quotes in general about what he wants on defense (like putting a hand up), but he doesn't normally go into the gory details.

[Splits]

Here's another Q1 Green flybye after he digs down on Westbrook to disrupt his penetration, forcing another Sef 2pt miss. Again, no chance of Thabo drawing a foul as Danny is under control with his arms and body:

http://tinypic.com/r/104pb48/8

[will_spurs]

Some fans seem to be very concerned with the way the Spurs defend the three-point line after giving help. The concern is mostly centered around the way Green (and others, but the fans forget that) jumps out at shooters instead of just running toward them with a hand up. So for those fans, I decided to look at every three-point attempt prior to garbage time and see how they were contested, and what the results were.

I don't think we were arguing that a hard close-out is worse than a soft close-out, but rather than a hard close-out implies less body control and more opportunities for a crafty player to get a foul. It happens all the time on this kind of plays. The fact that it didn't happen last night is no indication that it won't happen at crucial points in the future, especially if the refs have decided they'd be whistle-happy.

This being said, thanks for the great, detailed job. Very enlightening.

[Chinook]

I don't think we were arguing that a hard close-out is worse than a soft close-out, but rather than a hard close-out implies less body control and more opportunities for a crafty player to get a foul. It happens all the time on this kind of plays. The fact that it didn't happen last night is no indication that it won't happen at crucial points in the future, especially if the refs have decided they'd be whistle-happy.

This being said, thanks for the great, detailed job. Very enlightening.

Thanks.

I actually didn't say that part to counter Nono's point. It was more to emphasize that Green isn't foolishly biting on fakes like some posters insist he is, but rather he jumps because it's a strategy (a viable one that he executes flawlessly).

[Old School 44]

Whether a player leaves his feet or not to contest a shot is situational. The only thing I think they really coach is not to leave your feet if offensive player still has his dribble. There's also the consideration for where you are in the shot clock. Of course, when you leave your feet you don't want to barrel straight on into anyone. Although it doesn't happen all the time, the officials are supposed to call leg kickouts, and offensive player initiated contact.

I will say this about OKC, I can see falling down (even if they're just selling it) by contact on drives to the basket, but they sure do fall down a lot after jump shots.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Chin

[elbamba]

[B]tl;dr: [TR]
[I don’t think I can stress how horrible Duncan’s team defense was last night. It had no redeeming qualities. He can’t hedge on the PnR, but he also can’t sink fast enough to stop Westbrook or Durant from driving. I honestly don’t know how many minutes Tim can be on the floor if the Thunder aren’t playing big. HoFer or not, he’s probably not going to be a huge plus in this series.

While I agree that his defense will hurt the Spurs in this series, the fact that OKC cannot stop him on offense for stretches outweighs any negativity on the defensive end for me. Tim is still our best rebounder. You can tell the team is making an effort to rebound as a team to take the pressure off of Tim, but when it comes down to it, he is still our best rebounder.

[look_at_g_shred]

Definitely in favor of hard close-outs and biting on the pump fake. 2 is better than 3, and the likelyhood of the shooter getting back into position for the three is good, but the percentage of the shot decreases. Hard closeouts all series please?

[DesignatedT]

Leonard defending Durant

As expected Kawhi Leonard took a major role in defending Kevin Durant in the opening game of the series. Leonard spent 8:26 on Durant and limited him to 3-of-7 shooting on 27 touches for seven of his points.

Parker defending Westbrook

If Game 1 is any indication, Tony Parker will struggle to stay in front of Russell Westbrook all series long. Westbrook drove the ball seven times in 3:23 of matchup time against Parker.


Overall Drives Allowed
Manu Ginobili 8
Tony Parker 8
Kevin Durant 6
Danny Green 5
Reggie Jackson 5
Boris Diaw 3
Kawhi Leonard 3
Leonard's offense vs. Durant

Kawhi Leonard also highlighted his offensive game, shooting 5-for-11 in almost seven minutes of action being defended by Durant.

Duncan defending Thunder bigs

When Tim Duncan defended Oklahoma City's interior players, offense was almost non-existent. Between Kendrick Perkins, Steven Adams and Nick Collison they combined for just seven touches and 0-for-1 shooting from the floor in 7:13 of matchup time.

Collison's defense

While Nick Collison did not contribute much offensively he held opponents to 4-of-12 shooting in the game. He stepped up several times to prevent to impact Kawhi Leonard shots, limiting him to 1-of-5 shooting.

http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportv...iref:nbahpt13a

[Chinook]

That highlights what I mean about different folks having different numbers. Leonard gave Durant three three-pointers alone. This site probably assigns those baskets to "transition", which is pretty common. But those openings were Kawhi's fault, since he had plenty of time to pick up KD and lost him.

[jag]

Overall good read. Thanks for the post

I agree with Nono. Mostly because he's a mod

[ElNono]

I didn't like the defense overall in the 1st game. Poor transition D for some stretches, something you can't do against a team like OKC. I thought we were out-hustled for some other stretches too, especially the 3rd quarter.

I think the Spurs can play much better D for longer, and I hope after reviewing the tape they'll do that tonight. I think when the offense is clicking so well, the team tends to relax a bit on the defensive end.