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Thread has been bitter since June 15, 2014.
- "Uncle!"
- Tim Duncan
Thread has been bitter since June 15, 2014.
This kind of stuff happens with guys who are all about themselves, and who see the "team" as a means to and end.
In November when that black cloth drops and that 5th banner hangs proudly above the head of the greatest player of the post Jordan era, you'll be spinning the revolver. The schtick won't help you. I hope it's against the Lakers.True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman.Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.
Lord-a-mercy.
Nevertheless the " schtick" stays. You grew it. By God you will chew it.
Let us proceed...
Last year you said if Duncan made the finals you would rank him over Kobe. You reneged and denied you ever said it.
This year you said if Duncan won it all you would rank Duncan over Kobe. You are now satin you are strongly leaning towards it.
Just admit you will flat out never rank Duncan over Kobe no matter how large the mountain of evidence is and get it over with.
As for building a team, big men are generally easier to build around because dominant ones are so hard to find, the game has changed to emphasize perimeter play but a legit big who can man the defense, pass and stretch the d is still a better piece to build as those are just so mch tougher to find than perimeter scorer.
In a way, it makes what Jordan did all the more impressive because he stood out so much from a larger pool of good players (wing guys) while the bigs are generally so dominant because they are battling against a smaller pool of talented players. When you look throughout nba history, there really isn't a consensus of who the greatest big is (Kareem, wilt, Russell) whereas Jordan is the clear cut best wing player by a few miles.
Jordan wasn't a fierce enough compe or to challenge mob bosses.
The whole Dad killer schtick, the rape schticks are played out and add nothing to the basketball discussion. It makes you sound like a scorned woman.
^Bend over. I'll show you a in' scorned woman.
Absolutely. Amy, Tim's sexuality, 6 helps me cope.
Amb you can be so full of . Did you forget that I said I believed duncan had taken the lead and Kool jumped all over me for it? Did you also forget that I said I would not debate the matter until after they both retired? Me saying I am leaning one way or the other shouldnt take anything away from the things that you and I have ALREADY discussed. I give you credit for a great post and yet you fling feces like the creature in your avvy ... my guess it's to get kudos from fellow posters or to somehow validate your own opinions. So for the record let me recap where I stand:
1. From 2000-2005 To me there was no debate clearly Timmy.
2. From 2005-2007 Kobe narrows the gap.
3. From 2008-2012 Kobe in my opinion Kobe takes a slim lead.
4. From 2012-2014 Timmy takes it back.
I could mention points, MVp's and les for reasons why I feel that way... but tbh it's just my own personal feelings. the points MVp's performances and even rings are ALL things I take in to account. I already told you SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES I won't debate it until after they BOTH retire and so I have never reneged on anything ... and even if I did say something that you felt contradicted that how is even reneging? did we make a bet or a promise? You sound like a female right now tbh.
If anyone should admit anything it's you and the fact you simply detest Kobe. You have been called on it plenty of times even by spur fans on here. You hate his style of play, shot selection, leadership and his refusal to take back-seat to Shaq long-term. Nothing is wrong with that I dont like some of those things. We are all en led to our opinions. You just act like it's not personal and try to hide behind stats or some bull "matrix of leadership" type reasons. CN is not as good a poster as you are but at least he admits he hates Kobe and is not a fan of MJ. Your arguments would be much stronger if you could at least admit that. In our back and forth I have shown far more respect and far less bias when discussing both players.
As for MJ come on now I can find ways to spin a case for Magic, Duncan, Kareem or even Lebron over Jordan. I saw Jordan play he is the GOAT period and despite it being easier to build around a "big" like Tim there is not a world where I would pick Tim over Jordan.I take Mj and figure out the rest. And I am far from a big Mj fan I would take Magic if I was speaking from a biased perspective.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 08-08-2014 at 11:55 AM.
I get that and I still would take MJ.
not sure how you narrow the gap from 05-07, while duncan is still leading his team to les
Are you kidding me? You brought the entire Kobe vs Duncan thing out of thin air and now you are accusin me of Kobe hate? Gimme a break man.
I have stated my case multiple times and there's no point in me rehashing them, but I would want to point out how you would say rings matter on one hand, and yet say Kobe narrowed the gap from 05 to 07 while Duncan won two rings during that period and Kobe played in two playoff series. I just can't even imagine a scenario where this could be argued from your stand point with any level of consistency.
As for MJ, I'd pick Duncan, Kareem, and maybe bird and magic over him to build a team. As a player though, MJ is tough to top.
Prove it internet tough guy I did not bring up Kobe except to say Duncan had a case over him Shaq and Bird. We were discussing Jordan. But for you it always comes back to Kobe. Oh I agree ringing in in 2005-2007 does matter but I thought that was a team accomplishment? Lol you kill me with your selective reasoning. Like I said won't debate it here but since as you say rinnging is a team accomplishment funny that is the first thing you point to ...
Damn too bad I am not a great troll ...I could make amb my personal huckleberry
Come on, it's in the same thread, it's not like it's that hard to find. You gotta step up your game in trolling. I know the Lakers are basically done for at least two years and there isn't much to look forward to as a Laker fan, but you gotta look at it from a basketball perspective.
We are all supposed to be basketball fan #1, NBA fans #2, team fans #3, and player fans #4. I admit I am very much an NBA guy and skipped most of the college international stuff, but I recognize a good team and good game when I see one.
As for the 2005-07 bit, you contradicted yourself. I don't have an issue with team accomplishments, but you consistently did when it was Kobe 5, Duncan 4. And then all of a sudden, Kobe closed the gap during 05 to 07 when the Lakers were horrible (by Laker/Spurs standards), and the Spurs won two championships. You gotta explain that reasoning of yours and not try to pull out the "I was trolling card". You contradicted yourself, and I want to see a reasoning. I never said Kobe didn't close the gap during 05-07 BECAUSE Duncan won two rings.
As for those three years, Duncan had three year win shares of 11.2, 10.8, 13.0. Kobe? 8.1, 15.3, 13. Duncan had a three year ac ulation of 35 win shares, Kobe had 36.4. That was BARELY closing the gap.
In 18 years, Kobe had a 173 win share total, that's a little over 9.5 a year. Duncan had a 191.6 in 17 years, that's a little over 11 a year.
Yes, that makes sense, Duncan dominating the Wallace brothers in Game 7 of the playoffs the year after Ben and Sheed completely smash Shaq and Kobe between the eyes. I could see how Kobe would make up ground to Tim in that time.
This top 10 bull needs to stop.
Duncan is a top 5 player of all-time. Period. Jordan and Jabbar are the only guys who are clearly ahead of him. Everyone else you're going to have to decide what's important to you in order to put value over Tim's head. If he gets a le this year he's looking top 3 status dead in the eyes.
Tim may have actually peaked in 2006 tbh. He was averaging 32.3/11.7/3.7/2.6 with plantar fasciitis against Dallas. He actually had 2.6 blocks/game. Tim was without doubt the MVP in the 2005 & 2007 playoffs. I don't know how you'd pick Kobe over Duncan in those years tbh. The Spurs were a Ginobili foul away from a 3 peat. That's how good they were especially on the defensive end.
Kobe did have his best year in 2008 though.
If you recap the eras.
Duncan - 1999, 2003 - 2007
Shaq - 2000 - 2002
Kobe - 2008 - 2009
Lebron - 2010 - Present
If you take away team success, Lebron has been the league's best player since 2007.
I would says if you factor in team success also Lebron was the best player since '08. Granted he didn't win rings until he went to Miami but he made the Cavs an elite team despite having mediocre talent around him. Kobe is a great player but he never owned the league. His run from '08-'10 had to do mainly with having a dominate frontline that nobody could match up with. Just look at how the Lakers went down when they finally ran into a team team in the '11 Mavs that had a frontline that could neutralize the Lakers 3 headed monster of Odom,Gasol,Bynum. Kobe needs dominant bigs to win and that is why the Lakers will not win another le with him since the league is pretty much devoid of great bigs.
I said that too bad I am NOT good at trolling. I am not contradicting myself. And I aint explaining . I already told your ass we will not discuss Duncan>kobe until BOTH have retired. You trying to get me to renege on something .. I clearly stated but question my integrity on some minor bull .
Again right now without diving in deep I would be foolish to argue for Kobe. Duncan has regained the edge imho. But that is not enough for you? You want to go in to it was already proven by winshare x les + Finals MVp's + MVP's - missedplayoffs plus defensive rating ... and this last le doesnt matter ... UNTIL IT DOES ...
And I could not care less. As Cry points out, everyone has a diffrent way of evaluating. How and why I do mine ... well of course a le is a big part of it, indvidual brillance, stats advanced stats and eye test all matter ... as well as health the past two years. But I will not say more than that ...if that is not enough for you ..tough .
My guess is we will be able to have our "Dance" in a few more years if we both are still posting here and Duncan/Kobe retire when expected. But for me to spend my time you have to at least ackowledge and find a way to deal with your bias in this argument or it wont be worth my while. We are both busy professionals if you cant debate with an open mind then why should I?
You the one that is insisting on it now ...and it is funny to me. But No, I am not trolling. Not really. and I did mean my compliment above ..you are a great poster when Kobe is not involved. But you almost make me lose faith in your abilty to have a discussion when you cannot admit your bias.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 08-11-2014 at 01:44 PM.
That is not minor, your entire case of Kobe > Duncan was around number of les. Now that it's no longer there, and it's highly unlikely Kobe will ever win another le (maybe as a scrub ring chasing on another team ala Payton on Heat), you are saying that they are arguable.
Also, if you are so adamant on not discussing them, why do you keep pulling Kobe in response to my posts?
You clearly cares, we've been arguing this back and forth for years on the same subject now.Again right now without diving in deep I would be foolish to argue for Kobe. Duncan has regained the edge imho. But that is not enough for you? You want to go in to it was already proven by winshare x les + Finals MVp's + MVP's - missedplayoffs plus defensive rating ... and this last le doesnt matter ... UNTIL IT DOES ...
And I could not care less. As Cry points out, everyone has a diffrent way of evaluating. How and why I do mine ... well of course a le is a big part of it, indvidual brillance, stats advanced stats and eye test all matter ... as well as health the past two years. But I will not say more than that ...if that is not enough for you ..tough .
And so now you are saying every single way you look at it, Duncan holds the edge, so why is it even arguable? it's not regaining the edge, Duncan is destroying Kobe career-wise. It's like saying the Spurs showed they were a bit better than the Heat in the finals. No, the Spurs destroyed the Heat.
Not sure how I was biased in evaluating Kobe. I think he was a great player, would have loved him if he was willing to play his natural born 2nd banana role next to Duncan. He was clearly the best 2nd banana of all time at this point (even more so as Magic because Magic the 2nd banana wasn't as great as Kobe the 2nd banana), ahead of other career long 2nd bananas like Pippen and McHale. I'd put him as a top 20, likely top 15 player of all time, including the old timers, and that is ridiculously high given the number of players who have played.
He had serious flaws, refused to take ownership for his teams' failures while continued to take all the credit for the success, he had horrible shot selection for a primary scorer, he benefitted immensely from the league rule changes to create the next Jordan, he have issues recognizing situations and making the right decisions, he was a horrible clutch player who was overrated in that category his entire career, he had obvious ego issues, and he was borderline uncoachable, even from a guy who put Rodman in line.
I love how I make a case about Jordan make a refference to Kobe and the Amb is happy to switch mid-stream. You do realize the crux of my post that you quoted was that I dont care if "traditionally" it's easier to build around a big man, I would STILL take Jordan. It is that type of mind-set that leads to Hakeem over Jordan (not a horrible choice but still wrong), Bowie over Jordan (just terrible) and Oden over Durant. I take teh best player regardless of size...and you can attack this post I don't care ...but as great as Tim is top 10 etc. The gap between Jordan and duncan is great enough that despite him being a ty leader, father gambler you STILL take Mj to build a team because he is the GOAT. PERIOD. The ultimate foundation regardles of size. Again Iw asnt even a big Jordan fan and was/is rooting for Lebron to surpass him to shut up the Jordan lovers.
But Amb has such a "stiffy" for Kobe one mention and the thread changes course for you ... so obsessed. Can I ask you Amb ...does it get your blood boiling when me or a real Kobe stan makes that argument? Does the mention of his name make your curse? Think back to my post. I gave you credit for a great post. I asked even if being sarcastic if you could try and apply that type of non emo reasoning to a Kobe related topic and what did you do? Gave some pretty good stats surrounded in some emotional BS about leadership etc.
Right now if you could make a logical argument not just based on stats without the extra you could probably win me over becvaus elike I said NUMEROUS times teh past two seasons pretty hard to make a case for Kobe right now. But when you get all in the he DESTROYS Kobe and duncan is winning in every single way mode you sound like a childish fanboy and not the intelligent poster you are, all jokes aside.
Amb I really did want to have a debate with you someday even if I lost ... I repected you that much .. but you make it harder with responses like these. I wont lie some of what I posted from time to time said were digs (not trolling in my book but again I am not good at it) but seriously why does the subject of Kobe make the quality of your posts suffer? Maybe I should seek out DPG or Cry for a lengthy debate instead.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 08-11-2014 at 02:56 PM.
Let me count the ways you proved my point:
1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.
2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the les did not prove anything ... but whatever.
3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?
4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bull that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.
* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do.
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