Europe: Gary Payton top 10

[Killakobe81]

So other than the Spurs, which contending team right now actually run team oriented offense instead of ISO ball?

OKC - ISO Ball
Heat - Mostly ISO Ball
Golden State - ISO Ball
Rockets - ISO Ball + FTs
Clippers - ISO Ball + some pick and rolls
Indiana - Doesn't even play offense
Chicago - Even worse than Indiana

I am struggling to see this mythical great era of movement oriented offense in the league right now, when only one single contending team is playing it.

Whereas in the 90s, the Sonics had some semblance of ball movement. Suns were fast faced, but mostly iso ball with Barkley and Johnson, Bulls had the triangle that usually ended up with Jordan ISOing, Spurs played force pass to a triple teamed Robinson while Johnson and Del Negro are wide opened offense, Jazz was pick and roll, Knicks was thug ball at it's best, Rockets was Hakeem and out. Yes, none of them had the fluidity of Spurs ball, but Spurs ball really isn't the norm.

86 Celtics and 77 Blazers and early 70s Knicks were the exceptions rather than the rule.

Agree with Amb, Spurs play a style like the mid 80's Celts but most of the teams are playing iso-ball .... I think RC's team plays his flow offense there is an iso component but even the spurs have some as well. I think RC, btw is the only coach on Pop's level with Phil retired ...

[Warlord23]

90s vs 2000s le teams and their systems:
Triangle offense: Bulls (6X) in the 90s, Lakers (5X) since then
Low post big surrounded by shooters: Rockets (2X) + Spurs (1X) in the 90s, Spurs (3x) since
Scrappy, physical defensive team : Pistons in both eras plus Celtics in the 2000s

So where is this fresh, advanced style of ball that won in the 2000s?

The 2014 Spurs are not part of the 2000s, and even if they were, would be the sole exception. In reality, every le team of the 2000s played the same style of basketball that a 90s team won with.

Also, none of this makes Lebron look any better, so you might want to use a different shtick

[Malik Hairston]

Um, the 2011 Mavs, 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs were all new-age teams that didn't run primarily ISO ball..the 2012 Heat still had traces of being an ISO team(like the 2011 team), but weren't nearly as bad as a 90s team..

Statistically, Heat haven't been in the top 10 in the NBA in ISO % since 2012, despite having 3 great ISO options..even in 2012, they were barely in the top 10..if you exclude Wade, they would fall way further..

The Clippers weren't even close to being in the top 10 in ISO %..

Among the final 8 teams in this year's playoffs, only the Thunder, Pacers and Nets would statisticially be labeled as ISO-oriented teams(I don't remember Washington's numbers, though, they could be up there)..

[Malik Hairston]

90s vs 2000s le teams and their systems:
Triangle offense: Bulls (6X) in the 90s, Lakers (5X) since then
Low post big surrounded by shooters: Rockets (2X) + Spurs (1X) in the 90s, Spurs (3x) since
Scrappy, physical defensive team : Pistons in both eras plus Celtics in the 2000s

So where is this fresh, advanced style of ball that won in the 2000s?

The 2014 Spurs are not part of the 2000s, and even if they were, would be the sole exception. In reality, every le team of the 2000s played the same style of basketball that a 90s team won with.

Also, none of this makes Lebron look any better, so you might want to use a different shtick

The 2000s was full of ISO-ball, too, just not as bad as the 90s..the 2000s had a ton of skilled and athletic players, though, and the league opened up the game with rule changes to implement more skill and less NFL football-like basketball(as everybody knows)..2000s was a nice transition once it eliminated hideous basketball like the Spurs and Pistons brand..

The new era of basketball(2011+) has been a pleasure to watch..

[m>s]

Harlem knows that the glove would lock his ass down like the doctor glove locks down his butthole during a prostate exam..Harley wouldn't even be able to unclench his butthole without permission. And if he were 6 inches taller he'd do the same thing to his man crush Lebron.

[ambchang]

Um, the 2011 Mavs, 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs were all new-age teams that didn't run primarily ISO ball..the 2012 Heat still had traces of being an ISO team(like the 2011 team), but weren't nearly as bad as a 90s team..

Statistically, Heat haven't been in the top 10 in the NBA in ISO % since 2012, despite having 3 great ISO options..even in 2012, they were barely in the top 10..if you exclude Wade, they would fall way further..

The Clippers weren't even close to being in the top 10 in ISO %..

Among the final 8 teams in this year's playoffs, only the Thunder, Pacers and Nets would statisticially be labeled as ISO-oriented teams(I don't remember Washington's numbers, though, they could be up there)..

Show the numbers vs 90s and 00s teams.

Heat ISOing less than other teams could just meant the othe teams are all time ISO teams. Your case is comparing 10 teams to 90 teams. Not 10 teams against each other.

[Infinite_limit]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

[rogues]

ing re , stick to trolling

oh wait

Harlem knows that the glove would lock his ass down like the doctor glove locks down his butthole during a prostate exam..Harley wouldn't even be able to unclench his butthole without permission. And if he were 6 inches taller he'd do the same thing to his man crush Lebron.

Trying too hard, tbh..

[Capt Bringdown]

GP was a selfish headcase. Extremely over-rated gimmick player. There's a reason why Seattle never made it over the hump: Gary Payton.

[Clipper Nation]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

College basketball = white stiffs chucking threes and flopping while selfish one-and-done players run isos

Literally the most hideous form of basketball known to man

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I'm with Harlem on this one. 90s ball was mostly godawful basketball, the sport has evolved a lot, coaching and tactics are on a whole new level now and the rule changes pretty much make player comparisons impossible. That said, which are these great low post players from the 90s people brag about? Cause I've watched 90s ball and can't think of many. Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, then umm..? DRob wasn't, Zo wasn't, Mutombo wasn't, Ewing wasn't, Kemp wasn't, Pedoman wasn't, Smits wasn't. Divac was OK. It's true that a lot of teams relied on low post scoring because of the highly congested area and the poor shooting but it's not like there were fundamentally great low post players on every team with great moves.

[JoeTait75]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

College basketball is absolute compared to 25 years ago, tbh. The UNLV and Duke teams of the late '80s and early '90s would pummel any current CBB team by 30 every night.

[ambchang]

I'm with Harlem on this one. 90s ball was mostly godawful basketball, the sport has evolved a lot, coaching and tactics are on a whole new level now and the rule changes pretty much make player comparisons impossible. That said, which are these great low post players from the 90s people brag about? Cause I've watched 90s ball and can't think of many. Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, then umm..? DRob wasn't, Zo wasn't, Mutombo wasn't, Ewing wasn't, Kemp wasn't, Pedoman wasn't, Smits wasn't. Divac was OK. It's true that a lot of teams relied on low post scoring because of the highly congested area and the poor shooting but it's not like there were fundamentally great low post players on every team with great moves.

90s basketball was difficult to watch, and much less entertaining, but to jump to the conclusion that the current crop of basketball players are simply better (in a quite transparent attempt to elevate Lebron) because of it is a huge jump in logic.

Coaching and tactics in today's NBA is more complex because the rules have evolved to allow that. The NBA was a free-flowing offense in the 70s (Knicks Blazers), and 80s (Lakers, Celtics, Mavs, Nuggets, even early day Pistons, Philly), because the rules allowed that. Bad Boys Pistons caught up with that offense through thug ball and ushered in a new era of basketball, for better or worse. The rules were slow to change, the league was happy that Jordan and Bulls were winning championships with these thug ball tactics, so they let them be. it wasn't until the Spurs won a championship in 99 that the league realized they have to some how level the playing field that they started to change the rules.

The Kings and Suns had movement offense that amounted to little more than being serious contenders, but no les to show for it. The Sonics of the mid 90s was the same way.

As for the lost post scorer comment, Hakeem, Shaq and Barkley was 1/9 of the league's teams with great lost post scoring. Jordan was great in the post in his later days, Duncan in the late 90s, Robinson , Zo, Ewing, Kemp and Malone were better than most players in the league now in the low post, so was Brad Daughtery, Smits, Divacs and even Rony Seikaly. Even Bison Dele (Brian Williams) and Pervis Ellison had more post moves than most of the players in the league today. The best post players in the league today is probably Lebron James, Zach Randolph, and Al Jefferson, Pau Gasol, and maybe Duncan, and I'd take young Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, and Ewing over them (in terms of low post play) any day.

If these players can put up 20ppg in the highly congested low post area, they are pretty much better than anyone in today's game, by definition.

[Infinite_limit]

College basketball is absolute compared to 25 years ago, tbh. The UNLV and Duke teams of the late '80s and early '90s would pummel any current CBB team by 30 every night.

Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

[JoeTait75]

Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

Agreed.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

Couldn't disagree more. The game has evolved tremendously, tactically, technically and athletically.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

90s basketball...

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

[Killakobe81]

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

True, story.

[ambchang]

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

You listed 6 guys that are "great" on the blocks, what else do you want?

In the 00's, we had Shaq, Duncan, Yao, maybe Webber, MVPau and some Divac.

In the 10's you really have none on that level.

I'm fine with saying the 00s had decent post players, but 90s are still better, and both are way better than 10s.

Finally, prime Duncan > everyone except Hakeem and McHale, so I will give you that. But MVPau > Shaq? I don't agree. I don't care Shaq was just bowling over people, he got the job done. I don't care if he only has one move (which is not true), he got the job done. People underates Shaq's passing off of double and triple team, and his ugly turnaround one handed push shot. Shaq was deadly within 5 feet, and was very dangerous within 10.

[Killakobe81]

I know some already mentioned, but in the 90's some of the guards were really good in the post , Payton, strickland even Mark Jackson were good post players too

[whitemamba]

Anyone who thinks its Pau> Shaq, should be banned immediately.

[Killakobe81]

Anyone who thinks its Pau> Shaq, should be banned immediately.

Post moves, only. I will agree that shaq's one or two moves the middle hook and power drop step are more deadly than ANYTHING duncan or Pau had. But you wouldnt create a better basketball video of post play showing THOSe moves ... how many 7 foot 300 pounders with quicks and strength are there in the world? Duncan and Pau in particular are great fundamentally. I only give Pau a slight edge is that duncan's relies more on flips and unorthodox shots on his follow through. Both have exquisite foot work but if you watch tape Pau's form is better than Tim on a consistent level even though duncan to me is more effective.

I dont think anyone would argue Pau is better than Shaq not even more effective just better at the fundamentals of post play. Also shaq must be one of the GOATS at "sealing" a big down low another thing tim is better than Pau at ...