Pop landing a gutshot on Chinook...

[ElNono]

but those seem rarer since we returned to the Finals and bandwagoners appeared. (Not to say there haven't been many new terrific posters added, there has, but with them have come a lot of trolls sadly)

it really started since reaching the WCF in '12... this place was inundated with certain vanilla/fairweather/bandwagon fans... oh well, certainly would trade that for a championship or two, tbh

[BillMc]

it really started since reaching the WCF in '12... this place was inundated with certain vanilla/fairweather/bandwagon fans... oh well, certainly would trade that for a championship or two, tbh

You're right. And fortunately we DO get to trade it for a championship (and perhaps another few).

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Danny's a better weak side shot blocker than kawhi, better 1 on 1 defender(not by much) and the best I've ever seen at breaking up a fast break.

[FkLA]

When you factor in rebounding and steals/deflections hes really not on Kawhis level though. No shame in that since Kawhi is the absolute best permeter defender in the league.

[dabom]

Danny's a better weak side shot blocker than kawhi, better 1 on 1 defender(not by much) and the best I've ever seen at breaking up a fast break.

Kawhi is our best 1on1 defender. So much so that Pop puts him on the other teams best player late in games to ice it. Danny is very good in transition though. Kawhi would get more blocks if he tried but that comes at more fouls or pumpfake drivebys. Some things that pop or kawhi couldn't careless about. Kawhi needs to play 40 a night if he is asked so he can't foul or go for blocks. We don't have any real backup 3s but we do have a great sg in manu.

[wildchild]

Danny is an amazing 1-on-1 defender and transition defender, but he frequently has brain farts and leaves shooters wide open while "helping" for no reason. He also frequently gets lost on off-ball screens.

Agreed.

2) Green's an elite help defender.

Not really, not always.

This kind of play is simply inexcusable. When Shane Battier catches Allen's pass, Green is a good 10-15 feet away from him. Why is he helping so much on a Ray Allen drive to the rim? Green should know that Gregg Popovich (or any conscious human being, for that matter) would choose a contested Ray Allen floater over a wide-open Shane Battier three any day of the week.

What is Danny doing? I get that he wants to help Kawhi Leonard with LeBron and Tim Duncan with Chris Bosh, but LeBron is driving away from Green, and Bosh doesn't have a good angle for a pass. It goes without question that Pop has drilled into every Spur's head not to leave Ray Allen or Shane Battier open. This sort of mental mistake by Green is something that should never happen on a team as disciplined as the Spurs. Once again, Danny is caught far away from his man, who just happens to be one of the greatest shooters of all time.

In this play, Green and Matt Bonner are both way too far off their respective men in Draymond Green and Klay Thompson. Harrison Barnes kicks it out to Draymond, who for some reason is left wide open, who then passes it over to Thompson, who for some reason is left even more wide open. Bonner does a good job of recovering and tries to chase Draymond off the line, but doesn't communicate with Green that they need to switch men. Green doesn't realize this until it's far too late, and the Super Splash Bros don't let wide open threes go unpunished.

Here's another miscommunication between Green and his teammates, which leaves Mario Chalmers wide-open for a three. It's unclear whether Green thinks his man is Battier or LeBron, but either way he's missing out on his real match-up and great shooter in Chalmers

Old article (2013) http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/...efense-improve

But even if Danny has improved, Pop still wants a continuous improvement in facets where Danny isn't elite yet, it's not a big deal after all.

[dabom]

When you factor in rebounding and steals/deflections hes really not on Kawhis level though. No shame in that since Kawhi is the absolute best permeter defender in the league.

Rebounds wins championships. Kawhi might be the best rebounder at the 3. KAwhi tim and tiago is like having 3 centers on the floor for rebounding.

[ElNono]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

[dabom]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

Rebounds are a huge part of defense last I heard.

[spurraider21]

jason kidd's rebounding never goes without mention

[FkLA]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

Eh both are wings. I'd understand if Kawhi was a bigman or something. And even if we look at them relative to their position, Kawhi is the best rebounding SF in the league and Green isn't really an elite rebounding SG. There's also steals/deflections which is normally better suited for guards and yet Kawhi is better at that as well.

I really like Green but I don't understand how this comparison is even all that close tbh.

[ElNono]

Rebounds are a huge part of defense last I heard.

don't disagree. but at the same time, you can't take that into a vacuum. If a guy is shutting down Curry at the top of the key, I can't expect that guy to also go grab all the rebounds. It's much more of a concern when you have PFs or Cs that are poor boxing out or rebounding (ie: Ginger). When you're talking guards, you'll take whatever rebounding they can give you, but you can't forget you're talking about a guard.

[ElNono]

Eh both are wings. I'd understand if Kawhi was a bigman or something. And even if we look at them relative to their position, Kawhi is the best rebounding SF in the league and Green isn't really an elite rebounding SG. There's also steals/deflections which is normally better suited for guards and yet Kawhi is better at that as well.

I really like Green but I don't understand how this comparison is even close tbh.

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the cir stances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

[dabom]

don't disagree. but at the same time, you can't take that into a vacuum. If a guy is shutting down Curry at the top of the key, I can't expect that guy to also go grab all the rebounds. It's much more of a concern when you have PFs or Cs that are poor boxing out or rebounding (ie: Ginger). When you're talking guards, you'll take whatever rebounding they can give you, but you can't forget you're talking about a guard.

And Kawhi shut down klay in that series. He also got a ton of rebounds(i'm assuming ). You act like kawhi doesn't spend 90% of his time in the perimeter. We are talking about defense not what positon they play, hence why Kawhi is the better defender between the two. I wonder what pop would say, wait he already did.

[dabom]

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the cir stances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

You don't want to start another ST myth now. These people eat it up.

[FkLA]

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the cir stances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

I don't know bro. I've never thought Kawhi spends a large amount of time near the rim. I mean he still guards perimeter guys, right? So why would he spend a significantly larger amount of time closer to the basket than Green?

[ElNono]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

[Chinook]

Agreed.



Not really, not always.






Old article (2013) http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/...efense-improve

But even if Danny has improved, Pop still wants a continuous improvement in facets where Danny isn't elite yet, it's not a big deal after all.

Thanks for the counter point. That article seems to take the shots allowed as an indicator that Green is a poor help defender, but the reasoning is flawed for a few reasons.

The first is that it doesn't take into account the effect of Green's help on the opposing team's percentage at the rim. The fact that Green allowed "some" threes doesn't mean that he didn't balance that out by denying twos. That he has elite team defensive metrics seems to suggest he more than makes up for the threes.

Second is that PPP (especially in the traditional sense) only accounts for shots taken. So if Green forces a pass with his defense the numbers don't catch it. Funny how you can use arguments against PPP to defend Leonard but ignore them when it relates to Green.

Third, If anything, this shows that Green isn't a perfect one-on-one defender. Poor help defense means that he blows his rotations and leaves his teammates out to dry. I don't think that anyone can really say Green doesn't help enough.

[100%duncan]

if you believe people on a message board know greens impact on defense than I'm sure other teams and coaches/gms do too. Green will get payed what he's worth. He isn't as good of a player as Leonard hence he won't get as much money. Lol

Influence of Pop tbh. I know Green's going to get paid either way but to dismiss that's he's not going to atleast miss a couple millions...

[Chinook]

I don't know bro. I've never thought Kawhi spends a large amount of time near the rim. I mean he still guards perimeter guys, right? So why would he spend a significantly larger amount of time closer to the basket than Green?

Kawhi spends a lot more time by the rim. Green hangs out there to but only really as the primary or secondary defender, which means he's usually not set up for boarding. His job as a guard is to leak for transition, and that means he often leaves rebounds to the frontcourt, though he's been attacking the glass this season. Green is actually really good at boxing players out for his teammates. Last night, there were a couple of times he held off Z-Bo so that someone else could get the rebound. That doesn't go into a stat sheet at all.

[hater]

Pop hates danny because he frequents clubs and twitter

[spursfaninla]

I'm sorry that you can't understand why empirical analysis is better than ad hoc opinion. But saying I'm biased doesn't mean I scored Green better. If anything, he got robbed in the middle games of the WCF on several occasions due to helping on the Russ/KD PnR when Leonard and Parker kept flubbing the switch.

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

[dabom]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

Although those guys do do that, he still spends 90% of his time out in the perimeter and still gets the rebound. He just man handles 2 or 3 rebounds out of opponent hands every game.

[Chinook]

Chinook with the bads per par. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=233376&page=2

Look at all that homerism in there.

Kawhi is the best defender in our team and the best perimeter defender in the game.

Chinook uses stats as reliable as plus/minus.

Not all stats are useless but they don't paint the whole picture. You need to learn that before you start basing your ideas on them.

I remember why I used to just at your posts. There's a difference between pointing to stats and quantifying what you see. I (re)charted the entire game so that people could see things that weren't on a box score. That you think your six-months-old eye test is somehow the same is foolish. More importantly, you (and many others) completely misunderstood the adjustment Pop made and the reasoning for it.

[dabom]

I remember why I used to just at your posts. There's a difference between pointing to stats and quantifying what you see. I (re)charted the entire game so that people could see things that weren't on a box score. That you think your six-months-old eye test is somehow the same is foolish. More importantly, you (and many others) completely misunderstood the adjustment Pop made and the reasoning for it.

Westbrook with godzilla stats and then doesnt play the fourth the next game because pop put kawhigodmode on him. Even Pop flat out denies any arguments that green is a better defender than kawhi and homers just can't accept the truth.