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  1. #26
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    People also forget the importance of nutrition and conditioning..Something modern players are a million times better with.

  2. #27
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond re ed. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.
    1970s: Eastern bloc training methods are introduced to the USA. One of the first uses in professional sports were the 1970's Raiders. They hired Marv Marinovich, who studied these training methods, one of the first NFL strength and conditioning coaches. He helped revolutionize NFL training, these workouts were also applied to help in basketball workouts. The 1970 Raiders also had a load of success, which I don't think is a coincidence.

    Very few people actually had knowledge of these. As the decades go on, and our technology evolves (Internet, cellphone, tv, etc.) the spread of information increases, more and more people have access to this information.

    From this point on it was a gradual process, players like Jordan, Barkley, Pippen, etc. started benefiting from it, a very small % of the league, same as the NFL.

    We didn't evolve, we simply unlocked more of our physical potential through proper workouts, nutrition, and rest, through knowledge. Explosive workouts (bloc) transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today, guys with huge size and athleticism, everywhere instead of just a small % of guys.

    You factor in the massive popularity of basketball now and the talent pool, combined with the fact that almost anyone has access to this information, coaches and sports trainers using these methods regularly, you're going to get a much bigger talent pool and through sheer numbers alone you will get better players, more genetic freaks.


    Explosiveness is what the NBA is all about these days, it's usually what separates stars from the scrubs, the creation of space through exploding lol. It's what scouts look for. It's even what the NFL is all about, that's all they look for. Explosiveness was the result of these methods.


    - A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

    - The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

    - The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

    - The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

    Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.

    These sports all have 1 thing in common. They all rely on technique. They do not have anything to do with bodily contact either. Not only that, these sports have been around for a pretty damn long time so they've pretty much perfected everything, basketball is in it's infancy.

    And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.
    Pippen took years to fill out, many of these players did because eastern bloc training methods were just being introduced in the late 70's/80's. He was a 200lb stick early in his career, Jordan was a stick as well as a 190lb rookie. Both guys hooked up with Tim Grover who applied these bloc methods to bball workouts. They became more widespread in the late 80's. McHale was far more experienced than Hakeem who was just 2 years pro, that entire Celtics team was, of course he was going to get picked apart.

    Kawhi does not have Pippen's vertical that is the difference between he and Pippen, but he's 235-240lbs locking down guards on the perimeter and you're saying his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippens? lol. Do you realize the athleticism it takes for a man his size to be that nimble? He's not guarding the guys that were glued to the floor like many old nba players either, these guys are athletic. Nor has Leonard fully filled out, he's 23, at that age Pippen was 200lbs.

    Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

    Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.
    This isn't about vertical leaps, anyone can jump high. It's about explosive movements, lateral movements, agility in combination with size. How fast you can recover from being off balance on defense, your ability to explode to compete for rebounds, loose balls, run the court, challenge shots, explosive first steps, etc.

  3. #28
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    The problem with some of mid's non-basketball examples is that it talks about general athletic ability. Strength training have marginally improved in the last 50 years, but explosiveness, Speed, and Vertical have all seen a significant improvement...

    I showed him an example on how my friends 100m record would have probably made him a pro decades a ago...

    They also heavily rely on technique more than anything, running, jumping, throwing, these are all based on technique and have been around for hundreds of years. They also have 0 physical contact. Bloc methods helped create large agile athletes, which would've improve sports with physical contact the most, the NBA/NFL, which they have.


    ...As well as Olympic weight lifting which the Euros primarily developed it for and dominated.

  4. #29
    leveled up sook's Avatar
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    shut the up.

  5. #30
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    Facts are facts.

  6. #31
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    Prime Tayshaun Prince was probably the best individual Lebron defender in the league, and held him significantly below his averages. And that was when Bron was at his freakish athletic peak.

    Bron would go off, since 80's team defense was so bad, but not because 80's players were significantly outmatched athletically. They were thinner, though, since the prevailing mindset at the time was that too much muscle would affect your shot, stamina, etc.
    Prince had access to bloc method training though. Two 200lb bodies are not the same if they are achieved through different methods of training.

  7. #32
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Facts are facts.
    I wouldn't bother replying to posters who don't talk basketball if i were you..A waste of time. Many posters here don't really talk ball...

  8. #33
    leveled up sook's Avatar
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    Since you've already pretended to get banned on a friday night, coordinate it for Saturday this time around. CN always has his mouth ready and Harlem is a pro at changing his avi every 2 seconds.

    ing loser

  9. #34
    Backup Goddess, tbh. Gummi Clutch's Avatar
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    Since you've already pretended to get banned on a friday night, coordinate it for Saturday this time around. CN always has his mouth ready and Harlem is a pro at changing his avi every 2 seconds.

    ing loser
    Wait...what?!?! I've been away for a while (partly because of that gay little spamming threads upstairs) but he actually coordinated getting banned with his e-buddies on a Friday night?

    Strange Love, Franklin , Splits

  10. #35
    Backup Goddess, tbh. Gummi Clutch's Avatar
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    Kawhi I've kept the spurm in muh mouth till I can get this sex change

    My E-buddies help with the burden as well

  11. #36
    TB 2 TB Silver&Black's Avatar
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    I wouldn't bother replying to posters who don't talk basketball if i were you..A waste of time. Many posters here don't really talk ball...
    ^
    Says the guy who posted this in the game thread:

    Hoping for A PARKER INJURY..

  12. #37
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    ^
    Says the guy who posted this in the game thread:
    He just wants Parker to be able to rest, the guy should be coming off the bench the way he's been playing.

  13. #38
    TB 2 TB Silver&Black's Avatar
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    He just wants Parker to be able to rest, the guy should be coming off the bench the way he's been playing.

  14. #39
    coffee is for closers Infinite_limit's Avatar
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    You are ignoring a centerpiece of all this: Americans have lower thresholds today than in the past. How many Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

    Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?

    In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.

    Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.

  15. #40
    moral victory, tbh. Franklin's Avatar
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    Wait...what?!?! I've been away for a while (partly because of that gay little spamming threads upstairs) but he actually coordinated getting banned with his e-buddies on a Friday night?

    Strange Love, Franklin , Splits
    I had endured a hard time the past few days bro. I got snubbed by a college staff job last week in the final round of interview. I didn't know what I did wrong during the interview, maybe I wasn't dressed the right way, or maybe I was just another victim of s' typical nepotism scandal. I kinda stayed up the whole night two nights before, I just couldn't fall asleep for some reason my heart was beating like a beast. But did I really have so much interest in such a staff job? Did I? I kept asking myself that question, lying in bed, spending the whole night trying to find out the answer.

    Later I realized it wasn't the case. I'd like to grab a contract as kinda of an insurance (which I'll probably renege on later this year when I get a better one), so I would have enough courage to ask "her" out, just as I originally planned... I wanted to delay it until both of us got our desired jobs. And I believe that is the main reason why I felt so upset not getting that job. It is a staff job at our university (the one LG and I both go to) but it's said that half our university will be relocated to a new campus this coming summer, about 15 miles away from downtown, about as distant as the one we interviewed for in November, which meant it'd be nearly impossible for us to see each other during weekdays if I worked there and she at PwC. The position I applied for was one on our current campus, but most those occupations are of the new campus and it was very likely that the bas s would reassign me to one of those due to compe ion (or unfair compe ion, as I mentioned above), so I guess the snub might be a blessing in disguise. I will work harder to get a better job in the coming months, and LG won't be back here until at least May, I think, so I will actually have something to do while waiting for her, just to miss her less hopefully.

    And yes, here is what I think made me sleepless that night... I got the info about some college teaching jobs (most of which will begin in March) so I sent her an email Thursday morning, to inform her of and share with her the info... And I sent her a message on AIM in the afternoon that day as a notification of the email, but neither responsive. Then about 24hrs later I still found no new income message or mail. Did she ignore me deliberately? I didn't want or even dare to think about such horrible scenario. Maybe... maybe she was visiting another city and there wasn't no internet access in the hotel room, I tried to persuade myself to believe that.

    But still, I couldn't drive the depression out of my head, I lied with it in my bed, awake all the way to the morning. I was tired as but still couldn't achieve even a minute of legit sleep, so I started my computer... Thankfully, thank God I saw a new income mail. I didn't dare to open it immediately, instead I kept praying to God that the mail was from her, then after about ten seconds of prayers I opened the mail, and yes, it was indeed from my Lunar Goddess. I felt so happy and relieved at the moment...

    She said she didn't intend to apply for those jobs... apparently she was adamantly determined to work at PwC, even those college teaching jobs that used to appeal to her so much didn't seem to attract her anymore. I was a bit disappointed at first, of course, but still it was minimal compared to the delight I felt upon seeing her e-mail. And I thought it might be a good thing for me that she wouldn't get back so soon, because it'd give me enough time to look for a good job, to revamp myself. We've already waited more than half a year and it doesn't matter to wait a few more months, we have total faith in each other. I want to make sure that when the goddess is back, I will present to her the best me I can possibly be. She must be enjoying her time at home now, and no matter how much I love her I have no right to take her away from her mom.
    Last edited by Franklin; 02-08-2015 at 08:38 AM.

  16. #41
    moral victory, tbh. Franklin's Avatar
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    And, even if I haven't yet got a job by the time she's back, I'll still make the move anyway. There ain't nothing that could stop me from loving my Lunar Goddess, regardless of financial reasons or s, like my sook once said. I've already waited enough. I've even thought about speaking it out online on Valentines day next week, but I decided against that idea finally because it doesn't sound like a good proposal, it'd be to informal tbh. I'll keep writing romantic poems for her for the coming months, and I'll continue to do so even after I make it official.

  17. #42
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
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    You are ignoring a centerpiece of all this: Americans have lower thresholds today than in the past. How many Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

    Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?

    In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.

    Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.
    Inf

  18. #43
    leveled up sook's Avatar
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    And, even if I haven't yet got a job by the time she's back, I'll still make the move anyway. There ain't nothing that could stop me from loving my Lunar Goddess, regardless of financial reasons or s, like my sook once said. I've already waited enough. I've even thought about speaking it out online on Valentines day next week, but I decided against that idea finally because it doesn't sound like a good proposal, it'd be to informal tbh. I'll keep writing romantic poems for her for the coming months, and I'll continue to do so even after I make it official.

  19. #44
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond re ed. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.

    - A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

    - The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

    - The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

    - The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

    Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.

    And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.

    Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

    Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.
    Game



    Set



    And match

  20. #45
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    Game



    Set



    And match
    Guess you didn't see my other post lol.



    We can use another example of these methods transforming a player, Michael Jordan.

    http://www.si.com/edge/2014/06/02/ho...vered-trainers


    "Credit the 1989 Detroit Pistons for setting Tim Grover’s career in motion. Grover saw an article in a local newspaper describing how Detroit’s physical play was affecting Michael Jordan mentally. Jordan was tired of being overpowered by his opponents, but he had injured himself in a workout with a trainer once before and was not regularly working with one at the time. Grover believed he could help Jordan. The worry was that he wouldn’t get the opportunity. Grover contacted the Bulls and eventually spoke with the head athletic trainer and the team doctor.
    After a series of interviews, Grover finally met with Jordan. Grover detailed his plan for helping the young swingman get stronger and avoid injuries. He would introduce a training regimen that would better prepare Jordan for the grind of NBA compe ion. Jordan was skeptical. Here was a 25-year-old trainer, with no prior experience working with professional athletes, laying out how the best player in the NBA could reach new physical heights. Eventually, Jordan relented. “I’ll give you 30 days,” Grover recalls Jordan saying. “30 days turned into 15 years.”


    Legendary trainer Tim Grover who was one of the first to really apply these to bball.

  21. #46
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

    Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?
    What does this have to do with basketball? You just brought up something totally unrelated lmao. What about all the Europeans that play bball and depend on these things, are they mentally weak too?



    In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.
    The NBA as a whole is far more athletic, understand? Old NBA had a handful of guys that could compete with today's athletes as far as size/agility/explosiveness, which matter a lot in bball. Now practically every single roster in the NBA, from top to bottom is athletic, even the guys that don't look athletic are athletic, but they're surrounded by other great athletes so they don't. Low % of athletic players old NBA, to high % of athletic players modern NBA. All because of new training methods and a much larger talent pool.

    SF's are much better and MUCH bigger lmao, PFs are starting to become compact and very powerful/agile/explosive, SG's are getting much bigger as well, starting to see bigger PGs too. You don't see half as many centers stuck to the floor because they would get blown by in today's NBA, think of Duncan guarding the pick and roll, slow big men like him were a dime a dozen to expose.

    Every position increasing in size/explosiveness would have a huge affect as a whole on every position. A more explosive PG/SG means you'll need explosive agile big men to guard them, bigger PG's mean stronger SG's, bigger SF's because of bigger SG's, etc. it's a chain reaction that had numerous affects. As well as no more hand checking, players HAD to get more explosive.



    Do you have a scientific term other than "grown man strength"? Of course most grown men are bigger than teens, yes, they're more developed, they build muscle naturally throughout the years as opposed to a teen who won't be done filling out until his mid 20's. Kawhi Leonard uses "grown man strength" or do you think knocking down 240lb guys and scoring is not "strength"? He's just 23 lmao.

    Most SF's used to be 190lbs, they also weren't nearly as athletic as many of these modern players, didn't have the size/agility/strength/explosiveness combo.


    Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.

    Duncan is a gym rat, he entered the league at 250lbs (bigger than D-Rob), he's lean as , and is a very good athlete, or was. He also uses all these training methods himself lol.

  22. #47
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all
    This ...

  23. #48
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

    You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

    You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

    Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

    The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.

  24. #49
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

    You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

    You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

    Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

    The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.
    In my Dirk voice "Shut it down!!! Let's go home!!! Take dat with you!!!! Lol

  25. #50
    Klaw apalisoc_9's Avatar
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    Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

    You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

    You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

    Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

    The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.
    Sure, but I think OP is simply responding to an opinion that past superstars would dominate today's NBA had they played in today's NBA without the advancement in training and nutrition..Just flat out put chamberlain's 60's self into today's nba and see him dominate..

    Many kids today have this opinion for some reason.

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