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^Ive never seen ball and player movement like that, shooting, bigs that can finish and pass, defense
they were really good, but come on.
^Ive never seen ball and player movement like that, shooting, bigs that can finish and pass, defense
Top 20 vertical leapers in NBA history:
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/28...in-nba-history
#20 Shawn Kemp: 41 inches. - 90s player
#19 Fred Jones: 42 inches. - 00s
#18 Ricky Davis: 42 inches. - 00s
#17 Dominique Wilkins: 42 inches. - 80s
#16 Vince Carter: 43 inches. - 90s/00s
#15 Julius Erving: 43 inches. - 70s/80s
#14 Tracy McGrady: 43 inches. - 00s
#13 Clyde Drexler: 43 inches. - 80s/90s
#12 Steve Francis: 43 inches. - 00s
#11 Nate Robinson: 43.5 inches. - 00s
#10 LeBron James: inches 44. - 00s/10s
#9 Deshawn Stevenson: inches 44. - 00s
#8 Dee Brown: 44 inches. - 90s
#7 Harold Minor: 44 inches. - 90s
#6 Shannon Brown: inches 44.5. - 10s
#5 Spudd Webb: 46 inches. - 80s
#4 James White: 46 inches. - 00s
#3: Jason Richardson: 46 inches. - 00s
#2: Darrell Griffith: 48 inches. - 80s
#1: Michael Jordan: 48 inches. - 80s
Waiting for the "fact" that all these players received Eastern Bloc training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_lea...ing_experience
Season Height Weight
1985–86 6' 7.36" 214.40
1986–87 6' 7.62" 215.46
1987–88 6' 7.38" 215.61
1988–89 6' 7.31" 215.58
1989–90 6' 7.09" 214.82
1990–91 6' 7.16" 216.16
1991–92 6' 7.04" 216.47
1992–93 6' 7.06" 219.86
1993–94 6' 7.34" 221.68
1994–95 6' 7.19" 221.50
1995–96 6' 7.27" 223.66
1996–97 6' 7.20" 223.67
1997–98 6' 7.11" 222.95
1998–99 6' 7.10" 222.85
1999–2000 6' 7.26" 224.68
2000–01 6' 7.03" 223.47
2001–02 6' 7.26" 224.05
2002–03 6' 7.40" 225.40
2003–04 6' 7.31" 225.45
2004–05 6' 7.26" 224.29
2005–06 6' 7.18" 223.08
2006–07 6' 6.30" 221.55
2007–08 6' 6.98" 221.00
B b b b but, different body types man. Weight doesn't matter, we are talking about body type here. But I just like to talk about how light players in the 80s weigh despite me immediately saying that it's the body type that makes the difference. BTW, I have no way of saying body types of today's players are better than those in the 80s and 90s, I will just post a few gifs out there.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...d-robinson.jpg, oh wait, a player from the 90s, he had Eastern Bloc training
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/upl...890cb66ecc.jpg Crap, another guy from the 90s, Eastern Bloc
http://www.scottiepippen.com/images/scottie.jpg, damn it, another 90s guy, but Eastern block
http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightcov...0-43-09-PM.jpg See, 10s player, so much more muscular than the above players ... oh wait, he isn't.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_Feb_2014.jpg Look at last year's MVP, so muscular, results of the Eastern Bloc training
http://www.nba.com/media/act_chris_paul.jpg See how his muscles and quickness allows him to create separation? It has nothing to do with timing.
Average stats for players drafted in:
2014 - 29.035 no step vert, 34.41 max vert, 9.975 bench bress, 11.6 lane agility, 3.34 3/4 court sprint
2004 - 28, 32.6, 11.00, 11.6, 3.27
2000 - 29, 33.41, 10.1, 11.6, 3.32
Literally no difference in the last 14 years. The data didn't go back further back, but we did know that Karl Malone played till his 40s in 2004 and was still productive, ditto David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, and even Arvydis Sabonis and Vlade Divacs.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...&draft=0&sort=
1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler
2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love
6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala
Last edited by Infinite_limit; 02-10-2015 at 09:26 PM.
original Dream Team
Laettner
1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler
2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love
6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala
Where you'll see the most aesthetically pleasing basketball in history.
if OP is trying to imply we're watching the best basketball there ever has been, he's either ing insane or 12...
im not going to argue the contrary, but I will say what I don't like about this era is the lack of rivalries and just the general "this is a business" at ude of the modern player.
the spurs big three, notwitzki, wade, and in the newer generation westbrook, durant, etc. seem to have the old mentality of play ball win championships
fatmelo, kang, etc. despite their skills lack that NBA heart that fascinated people all those years ago.
ing Owned that . Well said.
lol since when is actual science "magic"? These methods help you add weight/agility/speed/balance/flexibility through these methods, it is proper training that would benefit two athletes which must make bodily contact with each other. Not those Olympic sports which you mentioned which primarily require technique and make no physical contact. It transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today. Do you also believe the NFL hasn't also seen a massive increase in size/strength/agility/explosiveness?
Do you realize how hard it is to control a 270lb body like a prime Lebron? The athleticism it takes for Leonard to contort his body, shift his feet, remain agile and on balance at 240lbs. If you weigh that much, you have to build explosive muscles to propel that body, to will it to whatever you want it to do.
He used his speed to create separation in combination with Duncan pick and rolls and Pop's play calling involving numerous screens, he threw his body into the defender at the very last second to create a slight bodily separation like he still does. The initial separation was created by speed, he no longer has that speed, can no longer get his shot off despite using that same bodily contact. This is not rocket science, watch the game, pay attention. Ask yourself, when was the last time we saw Tony guard a PG an entire 7 game series? How many years ago? PG's are getting thicker, more explosive, more 6'4 200lb guys that Parker doesn't have the size to guard. It's why Parker is the worst defender in the league this year.And quit using Parker as an example. It actually hurts your case more than helps it, since Parker is probably the best finishing point guard in league history and would use his body to create separation against shot-blocking bigs. And this was during a time when the league was filled with more shot-blockers.
I used Jordan/Pippen as examples too, what about them? They couldn't create bodily separation, couldn't handle Detroit's "physicality", so he used these methods to gain weight while adding lean fast twitch muscle. He could now create bodily separation, Pippen/Jordan could now get their shots off, they could handle Detroit's "physicality" and whatever else that would come in their way. They both added 20lbs while getting more explosive, flexible, agile. We literally saw what they looked like before and after in '90, the change it made.
No you're not. Because if you were you'd know exactly what it is and how much it differs from the old training regimens of the past and how many people suffered. Part of the methods is proper rest, not over training, and through this you add extra weight/muscle/agility. Which again, would benefit athletes such as NFL/NBA players which they have. Adding flexibility/size while gaining weight.I'm familiar with Eastern Bloc training methods. I don't need to familiarize myself with any of it. What you don't understand is that no training methods, no matter how modern, advanced, or novel is going to grant exponential gains in athletic ability. Sure, they'll improve those aforementioned attributes by maybe a fraction of a percent, which is an edge worth having and can be the difference between an All Star and a very good player, but come off the fantasy that we're watching some kind of super athletes that would totally overwhelm (athletically) players from the 70's and 80's.
Bodily separation is key in the NBA. If you don't have it you can't make it, you need NBA size which is a fact.
We can even use the physical development as rookies as an example and how it affects their game, rookies are gaining upwards of 30-50lbs throughout their careers, Durant is up from 210 to 240+. Joran/Pippen gaining 20+lbs.
Jordan/Pippen were around 210 in this pic almost done filling out from the eastern bloc methods they learned from legendary trainer 2 years earlier, Robinson was around 230lbs in this pic would later fill out to 250+ thanks to eastern bloc methods influencing strength/conditioning coaches around the league, Barkley may or may haven't benefited from it in '92, I'm not sure what time he added Tim Grover (who used these methods on Jordan/Pippen).
1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler
2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love
6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala
Why don't you tell us how great that Euro compe ion was btw, we know how developed basketball was over there lmao.
Where you'll see the most aesthetically pleasing basketball in history.
Like many in this thread you get people that don't know what they're talking about ^^^
Doesn't realize these sports aren't comparable to basketball/football in any way, that they rely primarily technique and that these Olympic sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques with a massive talent pool.
How many people in here think the NFL hasn't benefited from it? Adding bigger/agile/flexible/explosive players?
NFL doesnt require a lot of brains tbh
Top 20 vertical leapers in NBA history:
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/28...in-nba-history
#20 Shawn Kemp: 41 inches. - 90s player
#19 Fred Jones: 42 inches. - 00s
#18 Ricky Davis: 42 inches. - 00s
#17 Dominique Wilkins: 42 inches. - 80s
#16 Vince Carter: 43 inches. - 90s/00s
#15 Julius Erving: 43 inches. - 70s/80s
#14 Tracy McGrady: 43 inches. - 00s
#13 Clyde Drexler: 43 inches. - 80s/90s
#12 Steve Francis: 43 inches. - 00s
#11 Nate Robinson: 43.5 inches. - 00s
#10 LeBron James: inches 44. - 00s/10s
#9 Deshawn Stevenson: inches 44. - 00s
#8 Dee Brown: 44 inches. - 90s
#7 Harold Minor: 44 inches. - 90s
#6 Shannon Brown: inches 44.5. - 10s
#5 Spudd Webb: 46 inches. - 80s
#4 James White: 46 inches. - 00s
#3: Jason Richardson: 46 inches. - 00s
#2: Darrell Griffith: 48 inches. - 80s
#1: Michael Jordan: 48 inches. - 80s
Waiting for the "fact" that all these players received Eastern Bloc training.
You think vertical=athleticism lol. It's a combo of size/agility/balance/flexibility/weight.
Jordan/Pippen/Barkley etc. all received this training, they were able to add weight without sacrificing agility/explosiveness, they both gained around 30lbs and maintained their athleticism. There is your fact right there lmao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_lea...ing_experience
Season Height Weight
1985–86 6' 7.36" 214.40
1986–87 6' 7.62" 215.46
1987–88 6' 7.38" 215.61
1988–89 6' 7.31" 215.58
1989–90 6' 7.09" 214.82
1990–91 6' 7.16" 216.16
1991–92 6' 7.04" 216.47
1992–93 6' 7.06" 219.86
1993–94 6' 7.34" 221.68
1994–95 6' 7.19" 221.50
1995–96 6' 7.27" 223.66
1996–97 6' 7.20" 223.67
1997–98 6' 7.11" 222.95
1998–99 6' 7.10" 222.85
1999–2000 6' 7.26" 224.68
2000–01 6' 7.03" 223.47
2001–02 6' 7.26" 224.05
2002–03 6' 7.40" 225.40
2003–04 6' 7.31" 225.45
2004–05 6' 7.26" 224.29
2005–06 6' 7.18" 223.08
2006–07 6' 6.30" 221.55
2007–08 6' 6.98" 221.00
B b b b but, different body types man. Weight doesn't matter, we are talking about body type here. But I just like to talk about how light players in the 80s weigh despite me immediately saying that it's the body type that makes the difference. BTW, I have no way of saying body types of today's players are better than those in the 80s and 90s, I will just post a few gifs out there.
Yes body types lol, do I have to own you with that pic again of Bird and Ibaka? It's not my fault you cannot distinguish between different types of muscle built through different exercises and how they look.
-Robinson didn't fill out to 250lbs until late in his career, sorry, try again. He was around 230lbs early in his career.Code:http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...d-robinson.jpg, oh wait, a player from the 90s, he had Eastern Bloc training http://ballislife.com/wp-content/upl...890cb66ecc.jpg Crap, another guy from the 90s, Eastern Bloc http://www.scottiepippen.com/images/scottie.jpg, damn it, another 90s guy, but Eastern block http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightcov...0-43-09-PM.jpg See, 10s player, so much more muscular than the above players ... oh wait, he isn't. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_Feb_2014.jpg Look at last year's MVP, so muscular, results of the Eastern Bloc training http://www.nba.com/media/act_chris_paul.jpg See how his muscles and quickness allows him to create separation? It has nothing to do with timing. Average stats for players drafted in: 2014 - 29.035 no step vert, 34.41 max vert, 9.975 bench bress, 11.6 lane agility, 3.34 3/4 court sprint 2004 - 28, 32.6, 11.00, 11.6, 3.27 2000 - 29, 33.41, 10.1, 11.6, 3.32 Literally no difference in the last 14 years. The data didn't go back further back, but we did know that Karl Malone played till his 40s in 2004 and was still productive, ditto David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, and even Arvydis Sabonis and Vlade Divacs. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...&draft=0&sort=
-Malone was one of the few that used these workouts, he used many resistance training workouts tailored by eastern bloc training methods
-Pippen was 200lbs as a rookie, Jordan 190, both guys used Eastern bloc with trainer Tim Grover in '90 to add weight while also adding explosiveness/agility in combo with their weight, 10lbs is a big difference. It's not as easy to control a 230lb body as it is a 200lb body, you need to do these workouts like these guys did, in order to remain explosive with said weight gain.
-Lebron does these workouts, it's why he is so big and agile LOL. He's 6'8 250lbs, it is different than controlling a 6'7 190lb body, it isn't hard to understand. He's packed full of lean muscle, very powerful core, not my fault you can't see it lmao.
-Durant is 240lbs he gained 20+lbs of lean muscle as a rookie thanks to these methods, you continue to fail.
We're seeing less 6'7 190lb guys, less guys built like Illgauskus, Eddy Curry, the fat asses, more compact 6'4 200+lbs guys that are explosive as , just like Oladpio.
"Jordan was nothing before 1990. All he could do is avg 37, 35, and 32 ppg."
When it came to the Bulls and Pistons it was much more than just "physicality"
Typical hard Rodman foul
Isiah head-hunting while Rodman has a well-placed knee
to the groin and throws a shot for good measure
Rodman forearm shiver to the back of the neck. Play on.
Laimbeer with the elbow smash to Jordan's face. A move
he perfected as if he were going for a shot block lol.
Laimbeer with another elbow smash to Pippen's face
and Rodman follows it up with a shove into the stands.
Aguirre with the forearm to the back and of course Rodman is there
with another well place knee and hip-check for good measure.
Another typical Rodman foul
He couldn't handle Detroits physicality he admitted to it lmao didn't you read the link?... it's why he hired Grover to help him gain weight, balance, explosiveness, agility, flexibility, while not sacrificing any of those things. Bodybuilding has been around for forever, basic exercises that add strength and size but don't address the various movements in bball. These new methods introduced all sorts of resistance training, balance training, explosiveness training, proper rest to maximize weight/strength gains. New strength and conditioning trainers started learning these methods from the NFL who started using it in '70 (Raiders). Started applying them to basketball workouts, figured out how to tailor them to enhance bball movements (Grover) started using them on NBA players. Now children and players are using these methods throughout the world. The information is easy to access and well known. That's why guys are getting more compact, more explosive everywhere."Jordan was nothing before 1990. All he could do is avg 37, 35, and 32 ppg."
Olajuwon, Barkely, Jordan, Pippen, all these guys were Grover's clients, all these guys benefited from Eastern Bloc training, the evidence is staaaaaaaacked lmao. As they all started using them the rest of the league did as well, more franchises started applying these methods to their teams and now they're everywhere.
When the results of that actual science is overstated beyond possibility. I don't care what kind of training methods are employed, you won't magically increase human athleticism and size/speed ratio by such a significant margin, that past athletes would be totally dominated. Why you do you keep glossing over this point? I'll say it again, the great scorers of yesteryear would still play well against modern players. As well? Probably not. But not to the point where "they wouldn't get their shot off." That's nonsense. Basketball is a skill game above all else.
Yes. And humans we're still able to do it quite well at those sizes ever before the advent of "Eastern Bloc" training.Do you realize how hard it is to control a 270lb body like a prime Lebron? The athleticism it takes for Leonard to contort his body, shift his feet, remain agile and on balance at 240lbs. If you weigh that much, you have to build explosive muscles to propel that body, to will it to whatever you want it to do.
All PG's "create separation" via speed. Actually, all wings do. It's why a great first step is the most important attribute a penetrator can have. Once a PG loses his speed, he's pretty much done as a scorer unless he's a great shooter or can post up, like Gary Payton, Andre Miller, etc. And yeah, it would stand to reason that since Parker has lost of some quickness, he'd be an even worse defender than he was in his prime. It has nothing to do with Parker's counterparts suddenly passing him by because they trained with Tim Grover. It's because he's old.He used his speed to create separation in combination with Duncan pick and rolls and Pop's play calling involving numerous screens, he threw his body into the defender at the very last second to create a slight bodily separation like he still does. The initial separation was created by speed, he no longer has that speed, can no longer get his shot off despite using that same bodily contact. This is not rocket science, watch the game, pay attention. Ask yourself, when was the last time we saw Tony guard a PG an entire 7 game series? How many years ago? PG's are getting thicker, more explosive, more 6'4 200lb guys that Parker doesn't have the size to guard. It's why Parker is the worst defender in the league this year.
What? Jordan averaged 27ppg, 8.8rpg, 4.6apg, 2.0stl on .491 shooting in his first playoff series against Detroit. He had no problem offensively against that team. Where I do agree with you is that his training with Grover improved his endurance (before Grover, Jordan only trained during the off-season, but with Grover, it became a year around regimen) and strength, so he was able to finish games stronger, but this idea that he "couldn't create separation" before encountering magical Eastern Bloc training is nonsense of the highest order.I used Jordan/Pippen as examples too, what about them? They couldn't create bodily separation, couldn't handle Detroit's "physicality", so he used these methoIds to gain weight while adding lean fast twitch muscle. He could now create bodily separation, Pippen/Jordan could now get their shots off, they could handle Detroit's "physicality" and whatever else that would come in their way. They both added 20lbs while getting more explosive, flexible, agile. We literally saw what they looked like before and after in '90, the change it made.
And what's this "separation" you keep talking about?
Yes I am. I guess I'll have to reiterate it again, since you obviously don't understand my point of contention:No you're not. Because if you were you'd know exactly what it is and how much it differs from the old training regimens of the past and how many people suffered. Part of the methods is proper rest, not over training, and through this you add extra weight/muscle/agility. Which again, would benefit athletes such as NFL/NBA players which they have. Adding flexibility/size while gaining weight.
- I don't deny modern training methods and sports science have enhanced specific physical traits that are important for a basketball player to have.
- I don't deny that a past player would see a drop off in his performance if he was transported to the modern game.
- What I deny is the extent of your (unproven) claims. This silly notion that a past player would be so physically outmatched, that "he couldn't get his shot off." Where's your evidence for that? It sure as isn't empirical, since no training method will improve athletic ability to extreme exponential levels.
And the history of size, agility, balance, flexibility and weight were all pretty much the same over the last decade and a half.
That is not a fact. Jordan's athleticism declined as he aged, leading to his heavy reliance of the low post game and turnaround jumpers and decrease in drive and kick. Barkley was clearly less athletic, but of course, it's all due to aging.
I didn't have a problem with it. It's you who consistently brought up the weight argument, but them dismiss it yourself about body types. You are arguing against yourself and submarining your own logic, if you have any logic to begin with.
http://ht.cdn.turner.com/ncaa/big/20...01_640x360.jpg, such a skinny little guy in his Navy days
http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/W...outSecrets.htm
Nope, no mention of Eastern Bloc training methods. In fact, sounds like pretty normal stuff.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...e-Pippen-3959/ Nope, Pippen was 212 lbs when drafted, Jordan 195 lbs.
Same with Karl Malone and David Robinson. They were from the 90s. You have provided no evidence that they used Eastern Bloc training methods.
His receding hairline screams PED, not my fault you can't see it lmao.
Great improvement, I mean, the league never saw a 6'10" 240lb guy in the past. If it wasn't for the Eastern Bloc training, we will be filled with 6'5" 190lbs guys like Adrian Dantley. Oh wait, Dantley's draft weight was 208lbs (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...-Dantley-2137/), and those 18lbs he gained wasn't muscles, only Durant can gain 20lbs of muscles
Why would guys like Ilgauskus not go through the Eastern Bloc training when he's from the Eastern Bloc?
Too bad the average NBA player is about the same as the players in the 80s and 90s, and that all the athletic measurements NBA drafts used remained essentially the same the last 15 years.
Athleticism is athleticism dude. It's okay that he went in on you.
KL in a nuts "90's athletes are garbage compared to today's athletes because I was a sperm during the 90's so they can't be great."
If players from the past such as Bird/Johnson used these methods, they too would benefit, however many didn't. These methods simply unlock more a person's physical ability, and they were created by the USSR in '52.When the results of that actual science is overstated beyond possibility. I don't care what kind of training methods are employed, you won't magically increase human athleticism and size/speed ratio by such a significant margin, that past athletes would be totally dominated. Why you do you keep glossing over this point? I'll say it again, the great scorers of yesteryear would still play well against modern players. As well? Probably not. But not to the point where "they wouldn't get their shot off." That's nonsense. Basketball is a skill game above all else.
Why do you think the USSR suddenly started dominating the Olympics from 52-88? They even beat team USA's basketball team to win Gold in '88 lol, it all adds up.
Basketball is a skill game but it becomes so much easier when you're just physically superior to your opponent. It requires two athletes to go head to head, to guard each other and match up physically. Sometimes size/athleticism overrule skill, and we see real life situations all the time. You can use Memphis-SA as an example, they posted up our players, rebounded on them at will, great position to do whatever they needed to do all over the court, got easy high % shots because they were just physically superior to the Spurs, they weren't more skilled at all.
Eastern bloc methods teach you to explode in your workouts, build lean fast twitch muscle fibers/endurance, proper rest and nutrition, they address balance/flexibility, basketball muscles and movements basically, as well as avoiding injuries. As your weight increases, your balance/agility/explosiveness etc. all must increase as well.Yes. And humans we're still able to do it quite well at those sizes ever before the advent of "Eastern Bloc" training.
Many players of the past used improper rest/nutrition, causing poor gains and bodily injury. They didn't approach their workouts in an explosive manner, many of these workouts were very basic focusing on isolated muscle movements, not addressing basketball movements. They built slow twitch muscle fibers, a lot of bulk, you don't want that in a sport like basketball, it makes you slow. They were able to get away with it because others around them used the same basic training methods up until around '90 or so. Others got by on pure genetics, that in itself is completely different though.
NBA of the past-low % of guys used proper training techniques and nutrition. Very uneven playing field.
Modern NBA-Everyone uses and benefits from these methods instead of a low %. NBA rosters are stacked with sick athletes (Yes even Bonner and Duncan) from top to bottom, even playing field for a much bigger talent pool. The overall quality of NBA athletes has increased ten fold and that affects the game in a big way. You're not special anymore if you're 6'7 220+ and can run like a deer, you're common, advantages you would've had back then, you no longer do now.
Speed and exploding are two different things. You develop an explosive first step by doing explosive workouts and building fast twitch muscle fibers in your legs/core. When you see a player shifting their feet, starting and stopping whether on defense or offense, imagine the ball not being there. They practiced these movements in an explosive manner over and over again.All PG's "create separation" via speed. Actually, all wings do. It's why a great first step is the most important attribute a penetrator can have. Once a PG loses his speed, he's pretty much done as a scorer unless he's a great shooter or can post up, like Gary Payton, Andre Miller, etc. And yeah, it would stand to reason that since Parker has lost of some quickness, he'd be an even worse defender than he was in his prime. It has nothing to do with Parker's counterparts suddenly passing him by because they trained with Tim Grover. It's because he's old.
Parker uses dribbling and fakes to create separation, get his defender off balance so he can finish them off with his speed. Parker also uses play calling and the Spurs' overall system to create separation, those Duncan screens you see leading to wide open jumpers, those pick and rolls to create separation for Parker, running Parker off numerous screens to free him up, etc. it's a lot of play calling that is creating separation for him, always has.
Guys like Schroeder/Westbrook/Oladpio/Lillard/Rose etc. most modern PG's use explosiveness to create separation, most 200+ guys also use bodily separation.
Stats do not fully reflect a player's performance (this is a truth we see time and time again), Jordan struggled with their physicality, he was so desperate he signed a 25 year old unknown trainer. We never saw the final product in '90 though, it took years to develop his body and fill it out.What? Jordan averaged 27ppg, 8.8rpg, 4.6apg, 2.0stl on .491 shooting in his first playoff series against Detroit. He had no problem offensively against that team. Where I do agree with you is that his training with Grover improved his endurance (before Grover, Jordan only trained during the off-season, but with Grover, it became a year around regimen) and strength, so he was able to finish games stronger, but this idea that he "couldn't create separation" before encountering magical Eastern Bloc training is nonsense of the highest order.
And what's this "separation" you keep talking about?
Bodily separation is everywhere on both sides of the ball, it's a huge part of the game as I mentioned earlier.
-Defensively, a player must remain stable on defense. When an offensive is throwing their shoulder/hip/ass into you, they are trying to knock you off balance, force your feet out of defensive position to blow right by you or simply gain position to do whatever they please on the court. The bigger/denser a player is, the more stable they will be, the less separation a player will be able to create with bodily contact, they won't move back nearly as much allowing them to contest your shot.
Eastern Bloc methods made players far bigger, but more agile and all that stuff I mentioned earlier. You're seeing less 280lb Centers like Curry or Kurt Thomas, more mobile 250lb PFs, 230lb SF's, very explosive and powerful. They can now stay in front of you, it's much harder scoring on them. If they can move laterally with you, while you can't create bodily separation because they're too big and stable, you are pretty much neutralized. It's like running into a brick wall over and over again. We can use this video as the perfect example. Their ability to "recover" from being off balance defensively has also gotten much better as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ-toJk4OY
Leonard is too big, stable, to be knocked off by Deng who relies on physical play to create separation. He used numerous hip/waist bumps to attempt to knock Leonard off balance, as you can see this does not work. Now if Leonard was 30lbs lighter like the average SF of the past, no way Leonard is capable of doing that, he's getting burned.
This works on both sides of the ball. PG's such as Oladipo and Westbrook, SGs such as Wade, they're short but 200+lbs of muscle, they're very powerful and explosive, it allows them to create bodily separation through contact, gives them easy shots. Practically every new age PG is explosive as too, capable of slamming it on anybody, it's stupid. You need players with certain body types to guard them.
The evidence is in the game itself, players that lack "NBA size" in today's game, would have "NBA size" in the past. You can also observe players being far more explosive/athletic on NBA rosters top to bottom, it also reflects in their weights and muscle build in relation to their height. We can also draw examples of Jordan/Pippen, etc using it to get bigger and better.Yes I am. I guess I'll have to reiterate it again, since you obviously don't understand my point of contention:
- I don't deny modern training methods and sports science have enhanced specific physical traits that are important for a basketball player to have.
- I don't deny that a past player would see a drop off in his performance if he was transported to the modern game.
- What I deny is the extent of your (unproven) claims. This silly notion that a past player would be so physically outmatched, that "he couldn't get his shot off." Where's your evidence for that? It sure as isn't empirical, since no training method will improve athletic ability to extreme exponential levels.
This is happening every game, players always struggle with their lack of size/strength and overall athleticism is combo with those things, I always pay attention to player weights/match ups, and overall ability to create space from bodily contact on both sides of the ball. Sometimes a team simply lacks certain personnel to match up physically with a player on the court, and that physically superior player dominates. This guy is too big for player x to guard, too fast for player z to guard, he's getting boards at will, posting up at will, sucking in the defense at will, wtf do we do!?
Most players from the past relied on creating bodily separation against players MUCH smaller, on Aguirre's drives to the rim he ran into a 170lb PG, a 6'6 190lb SG, a 200lb 6'8 SF, a 212lb PF, etc. Many of these drives simply wouldn't work in today's game because players at every position are so much physically superior.
It's not just the workouts itself either, but the whole Euroleague, basketball's popularity increasing internationally, the depth pool going from hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions in combo with these methods. I'd say the NBA as a whole, every single roster, is much higher quality than before, it makes the game much harder. We've seen the game devolve but evolve, players aren't using the fundamentals as much anymore, but it's because their athleticism just overrules it.
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