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Not to mention stat padding.
^Philo
It was clear within the context
Not to mention stat padding.
David Stern had to change the way the game was called and water down the league to get Jordan all those rings. Before that, the Celts and Pistons were opening cans on him. People conveniently forget this.
This, tbh. DK was a product of Stern.
He was still putting up incredible numbers. He just had OK to average teammates surrounding him. Going up against Bird and Mchale and the big giants of that era, no kidding he was getting whooped by himself.
The failures add to his legacy. He was drafted on a Franchise with 0 les and steadily built them up into the Greatest Run in Modern Sports [Yankees]
He wasn't draft on a team with another HOF like most of the guys in the Top 10
The count of Monte Crisco dropping some unadulterated, saturated crispy onion rings truth bombs...
Its really an insult to even mention Jim in this conversation. He's not even the best of his era let alone the best of all time. One thing all of the top guys have in common along with multiple rings is they are top 5 in major statistical categories. After 18 seasons Jim is not even close. Simply put... he was never great at anything... just consistent.
#3 all time in offensive rebounds
#6 in blocks (likely to surpass Robinson and Eaton to become #4 this year)
#5 in defensive rebound percentage
#3 in DRating
#2 in DWS
#6 in WS (has a chance to pass Stockton and be #5 all time this year)
#6 in VORP
#5 in playoff points
#1 in playoff blocks
#3 in playoff rebounds
#1 in playoff d rebounds
#2 in playoff o rebounds
#2 in playoff DWS
#2 in playoff WS
#3 in playoff VORP
I'll give you blocks as as a major and Jim is still not top 5.
Winning is not major? That explains a lot.
And since when are points not major to Kobe fans? It's about the only thing that Kobe fans look at.
By default Jim has good playoff numbers due to never missing the playoffs for 18 years. His regular season numbers don't measure up. He never led the league in any category for a season.
Say what?
Duncan led the league in total and defensive rebounds, FGM, FTM and 2PM in 2001-02 season.
Led the league in DRating 4 times
Led the league in DWS 4 times
Led the league in OWS once
Led the league in WS twice
Led the league in BPM once
Led the league in VORP once
Led the league in a lot of totals in playoffs in multiple years (rebounds blocks points)
Led the league in blocks per game in the playoffs twice
Led the playoffs in WS twice, OWS once, DWS once, WS/48 once, DBPM once, BPM twice, and VORP twice.
I love Timmy but you guys need to stop with this.
I love Tim, but he gets overrated on here sometimes. I think Tim is a top 5 player of all time, but to say he is #1? No. Its not even arguable. IMO MJ and Kareem are head and shoulders above the rest.
Then you also have gots like Naruto who try to pretend he isn't a top 10 player.
How does ambchangs ass taste?
Tim is basically a contemporary Kareem. What can you do to prove your claim other than citing Kareem's inflated stats from the 70s? If Kareem is arguable as a goat, his contemporary should be also.
No Tim is not and no Kareem is not but he has a case. It's MJ. And I was not even a Jordan fan in the 90's. I rooted for the Knicks, Magic, Sonics to beat him ...because everyone was on his nuts. But if you take nostalgia, Fan worship, even metrics out the picture ...this guy led 2 different 3 peats. He defended his le twice on two separate occasions. Some cant do it once. You can argue the 90's were weak and they were compared to the 80's, 00's and 10's ... but no one else has dominated the way Jordan did. Magic and bird the golden 80's boys BOTH call Jordan the GOAT and Magic played with Kareem.
It's Jordan period.
What a vanilla take.
What is vanilla? I didnt see most of Kareem's prime (hardly any) I saw Tim's (especially when i lived in SA) and most of Jordan's (not as many games in available to watch in his early days than God for WGN). There is not a place on this green earth (outside of Spurstalk) where a person that knows hoops and saw them both ...takes Tim over MJ.
You can maybe make a outside case for LeBron if you lower the importance of rings ... but no one is truly MJ's equal ... no matter what criteria you want to use. Stats, metrics, rings he is the GOAT in whatever flavor you want vanilla, chocolate, strawberry of the modern era. He is the best.
Now if you want to argue the gap is not as large as some make it seem? I would buy that. People act as though you cant even have the conversation. But as I have said many times no matter who you place with MJ that convo is a short one. You start with 6 rings 2 3peats the MVPS and scoring les. But just WATCH him play and it's over.
Tim has absolutely no case for GOAT. Maybe GOAT teammate along with Russel, but not GOAT overall. He's easily top 10 and arguably top 5 all time, which is honestly pretty damn incredible.
Jordan is the only non center with a top 10 win share season (all-time). In fact, David Robinson actually has a better peak win share season than Tim. Jordan was the only one to post a greater than since the 80's outside of Lebron who did it once. MJ has done it 4 different times. I am no stat but the numbers match what I see.
Side note: Kareem has 3 of the 10 best win share seasons. Wilt has 4 Mikan 2 and Jordan only one. Kareem has a better case than I thought because his 3 are in the top 7 including the all-time best mark. I love how folks here use this metric but discount Kareem because he did it in the 70's ...silly. But I never saw Kareem's prime which is why I give Mj the nod over Kareem but if I go strictly by numbers it's Kareem or Wilt.
I only came here to see if there was any Amy related post, Culburn must be getting soft.
What's your criteria? I go eye test first... stats second, individual accomplishments third... and team accomplishments last. If you take the consensus top 3... Jordan, Kareem and Magic... you have to ask yourself what were they great at. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer and led the league in that category a number of times. Jordan was the greatest scorer... and led that category 10 times in his career. Magic was the best passer and led the league in assists and steals a number of times. So... to mention players next to them you'd have to use the same criteria. Can you add Jim next to them using that same criteria? NO!!! Hakeem, yes... Kobe, yes... Shaq, yes.
Agree with all of this. I really hate Michael Jordan as a person, but he is the undisputed GOAT.
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