charles Barkely: "Kawhi leonard is a top 5 player in the league"

[cjw]

Time to retire this troll. You're bad at it.

Anyone who thinks Lebron is a "bad" defender doesn't understand basketball and they just look for reasons to hate him. He's not at his peak anymore, but is one of the few guys who can take over a game at either end. Don't forget that rebounding is part of playing defense, as it ends possessions. When it mattered most, he averaged 13+ in the Finals and over 11 throughout the playoffs.

[HarlemHeat37]

Like who? 22ppg on 52% shooting, and he's doing it in the West, the Spurs aren't exactly clicking either, they're screwing up the spacing but Leonard is still scoring regardless.

That poster is a Duncan player-fan IIRC..a few of them have posted in this thread, with predictable responses..

[Cry Havoc]

40years old jordan plays much better defence than leflop ever been

Bad troll! Bad! Back to the bridge with you!

[Neurosis]

In a vacuum Kawhi can be called a top two defender.

And he's not either on offense. There are certainly ten better offensive players out there. And just from this season, you can't even say Kawhi's top 15-20 (despite nice raw PPG numbers).

What two players could you say are definitely better defenders than Kawhi?

What ten offensive players could you say are better than Kawhi this season?

[dabom]

Kawhi is the best defender in the league. He gonna lock overated Dgreen just like last year.

[100%duncan]

Did I say that? No. I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I think Kawhi is probably the best wing defender I have seen since at at least LeBron's prime but more than likely, since Pippen. His ability to influence the game with his defense is not matched by anyone else in the league.

I think it would actually be somewhat stupid for LeBron to exert that kind of effort on both sides of the ball in the East, where you get 50 wins just for showing up in the conference.

Kawhi is also 6 years younger than LeBron and has about 10 years less NBA mileage on his body.

This argument is present in the first place because of what cjw said about lebron being better thank kawhi on defense

[cjw]

This argument is present in the first place because of what cjw said about lebron being better thank kawhi on defense

Fine fine, I give up. Was honestly trying to stir the pot a bit. Notice how I didn't say AD is a better defender than Kawhi (at this point, just a stat stuffer).

I just laugh when people think Lebron isn't an All NBA quality defender. He takes a ton of games off, but the East affords him that luxury. Pop's system also affords Kawhi the luxury of logging less minutes and having great team D around him to let him reach his max potential.

[Spurtacular]

leflop stan mad ??????

And this rounds out Apaliscoc_9 's man crushes. I knew their had to be a fifth.

1. Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Russell Westbrook

[T_L_P]

What two players could you say are definitely better defenders than Kawhi?

What ten offensive players could you say are better than Kawhi this season?

Again, in a vacuum you can't, but this season so far this season Gobert and Bogut have had a larger defensive impact.

Offense:

Curry
Durant
LeBron
Blake
Lillard
Harden
Dirk
Lowry
Bledsoe
George
Cousins

Then you have the arguable guys like Horford, Butler, Beal, Bosh.

Then there's Manu, who's best our unquestioned best offensive player this year, but doesn't have the minutes or touches. And Chris Paul, who's sucked so far, but if he picks it up he'll be up there again.

So Kawhi's anywhere from 15-17 for me (I was off when I said barely top 20). The reality is good offense simply impacts the game more than good defense. That's why Curry is having one of the best seasons ever right now, despite his fairly average defensive play, and Kawhi isn't, despite his play on both ends.

[100%duncan]

Jesus christ those names having "better" offense than kawhi. These takes smh lillard dirk lowry bledsoe george beal horford butler beal bosh holy

[T_L_P]

Jesus christ those names having "better" offense than kawhi. These takes smh lillard dirk lowry bledsoe george beal horford butler beal bosh holy

We are talking about this season, you know? Bledsoe is scoring more, on higher efficiency, with like five more Assists, and his team's offense is one of the worst in the league when he goes to the bench.

How can you say Leonard is playing better offense than him this year? Because he's Isolating a lot and the shots are going in (still to a lesser degree than Bledsoe's?) We went crazy about that last year too until he went cold at the end of the Playoffs and then he couldn't contribute anything to our O.

[100%duncan]

We are talking about this season, you know? Bledsoe is scoring more, on higher efficiency, with like five more Assists, and he's teams offense is one of the worst in the league when he goes to the bench.

How can you say Leonard is playing better offense than him this year?

A player is bound to have better stats when he's the primary option without any restrictions at all don't you think?

[T_L_P]

A player is bound to have better stats when he's the primary option without any restrictions at all don't you think?

His Usage% is almost the exact same as Leonard's, and I don't see a lot of restrictions on his game either (Kawhi rarely passes when he gets the ball inside the key, which I like of course since he's really the only starter playing good on offense).

Even if you disregard the arguables (though you should be paying attention to some like Dirk, George and Beal because they are doing a damn lot this year), there's still a list of 10+ right there better than Kawhi, which is what I was contesting.

I still need Kawhi do this for a long period of time before I can put him in that top group. We went crazy about his scoring and efficiency last year (even though it was a lot of ISO-ball and bad shots), and then when it came down to crunch time (final games of the Clippers series) he froze up and couldn't contribute on O. He was still pushing it but instead of shooting 50%, he was shooting 25%, and we lost. Guys like Bledsoe, George, Lowry can still contribute when their shots aren't falling - I still don't see that with Kawhi (again, I'm talking strictly offense here).

[100%duncan]

His Usage% is almost the exact same as Leonard's, and I don't see a lot of restrictions on his game either (Kawhi rarely passes when he gets the ball inside the key, which I like of course since he's really the only starter playing good on offense).

Even if you disregard the arguables (though you should be paying attention to some like Dirk, George and Beal because they are doing a damn lot this year), there's still a list of 10+ right there better than Kawhi, which is what I was contesting.

I still need Kawhi do this for a long period of time before I can put him in that top group. We went crazy about his scoring and efficiency last year (even though it was a lot of ISO-ball and bad shots), and then when it came down to crunch time (final games of the Clippers series) he froze up and couldn't contribute on O. He was still pushing it but instead of shooting 50%, he was shooting 25%, and we lost. Guys like Bledsoe, George, Lowry can still contribute when their shots aren't falling - I still don't see that with Kawhi (again, I'm talking strictly offense here).

So for Dirk, George, Lowry who were last season and are having a few good games this year, it's fine but with kawhi who has proved his game 2014playoffs and last season, up until now, you need more proof? And dont you think its unfair to say that they contribute more when their shots arent falling since if kawhi's shot isnt then the Spurs have a lot more options as compared to those who will always have the ball in their hands no matter what?

George- chucking up shots a lot, inefficient,
Beal- inconsistent, 2nd fiddle to wall, not necessarily having a good season either
Butler- does this guy get more hype than anyone ever?
Dirk- didnt he just have 1 good game and is looking like so far this season? Havent followed them
Lowry-always starts out strong every season only to decline as months pass by
Bosh- havent followed him

[dabom]

How were those guys numbers when they got bounced compared to kawhi?

[Kidd K]

He said that several times in the last few years....Before this season, the last time I heard him said it, was on Inside the NBA in 2014.

I can't find the video but some guys on reddit were talking about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...er_in_the_nba/

Hey thanks for the link. Looks like you're right after all. Good memory!

[Neurosis]

Again, in a vacuum you can't, but this season so far this season Gobert and Bogut have had a larger defensive impact.

Offense:

Curry
Durant
LeBron
Blake
Lillard
Harden
Dirk
Lowry
Bledsoe
George
Cousins

Then you have the arguable guys like Horford, Butler, Beal, Bosh.

Then there's Manu, who's best our unquestioned best offensive player this year, but doesn't have the minutes or touches. And Chris Paul, who's sucked so far, but if he picks it up he'll be up there again.

So Kawhi's anywhere from 15-17 for me (I was off when I said barely top 20). The reality is good offense simply impacts the game more than good defense. That's why Curry is having one of the best seasons ever right now, despite his fairly average defensive play, and Kawhi isn't, despite his play on both ends.

Curry - yes
Durant - yes
Lebron - yes

The others aren't clear cut above and some are definitely not.

Harden is shooting 37% this season. He's an overrated chucker and he plays bad defense. Dirk's been good but his D is even poorer in his old age (was never great).

None of those guys have the overall game impact that Kawhi does. Even if you make an argument for their offense being better, they don't hold a candle to Kawhi on D and no, good offense isn't more valuable than good D.

Stopping a bucket is as good as scoring one. It's just much more difficult to measure what "stops" a bucket but in strictly analytical terms the two are equal.

[YGWHI]

We are talking about this season, you know? Bledsoe is scoring more, on higher efficiency...

This season:
Kawhi 52.6 FG%
Bledsoe 49.7 FG%

Anyway, if you care about efficiency, why did you say Buttler (43.6 FG%) is better than Kawhi on offense? Kawhi's offensive game is more effective and versatile, we don't see very often, wings who can play in the post and have a mid-range shot.

Granted, after the All-Star game Butler sells contact and gets the calls. But that's the main reason I'd like Kawhi to be considered an All-Star and make the roster this season.

Also, Kawhi makes those numbers playing in the West, if you look Butler's stats against WC teams...you'd realize what I say.
The same we can said about Horford after his injuries.

How can you say Leonard is playing better offense than him this year? Because he's Isolating a lot and the shots are going in (still to a lesser degree than Bledsoe's?) We went crazy about that last year too until he went cold at the end of the Playoffs and then he couldn't contribute anything to our O.

Yup. Kawhi went cold...after averaging 24.7 ppg on 60 FG% in the first games. It's weird but I can't remember that kind of performance from Bledsoe in playoffs.

[HarlemHeat37]

We are talking about this season, you know? Bledsoe is scoring more, on higher efficiency, with like five more Assists, and his team's offense is one of the worst in the league when he goes to the bench.

How can you say Leonard is playing better offense than him this year? Because he's Isolating a lot and the shots are going in (still to a lesser degree than Bledsoe's?) We went crazy about that last year too until he went cold at the end of the Playoffs and then he couldn't contribute anything to our O.

This is a really strange argument, since Bledsoe's shooting is clearly going to naturally regress, tbh..he's a poor shooter that can't play in the halfcourt, yet is shooting 71%(!!!) from 10-16 feet and 46% from 16 and out, which is levels better than anything he has ever approached in the past..

[apalisoc_9]

A broken clock is right once everyday i guess

[baseline bum]

leflop stan mad ??????



...

That first video made me think of the time Kobe did that pull his shorts up crap against Manu in 2003, and Ginobili ran right by him for a layup.

Here we go: 2:55 mark

[Canyonero]

A broken clock is right once everyday i guess

Twice

[Cry Havoc]

Again, in a vacuum you can't, but this season so far this season Gobert and Bogut have had a larger defensive impact.

Offense:

Curry
Durant
LeBron
Blake
Lillard
Harden
Dirk
Lowry
Bledsoe
George
Cousins

Then you have the arguable guys like Horford, Butler, Beal, Bosh.

Then there's Manu, who's best our unquestioned best offensive player this year, but doesn't have the minutes or touches. And Chris Paul, who's sucked so far, but if he picks it up he'll be up there again.

So Kawhi's anywhere from 15-17 for me (I was off when I said barely top 20). The reality is good offense simply impacts the game more than good defense. That's why Curry is having one of the best seasons ever right now, despite his fairly average defensive play, and Kawhi isn't, despite his play on both ends.

If only the regular season mattered, you'd be right.

Fortunately, it doesn't. When the game slows down in the playoffs, offenses get ground up by capable defenses. If "good offense" trumped "good defense", the Suns would have a ring. But it doesn't. Curry isn't having one of the best seasons ever because he's "good" on offense, he's the best shooter of all-time. Total outlier.

@ Kawhi being not top 10 when he's closer to top 5 in the league.

[Dverde]

Has anyone won Defensive Player of the Year and MVP in the same year? Kawhi is making a case for both awards so far.

[Mel_13]

Has anyone won Defensive Player of the Year and MVP in the same year? Kawhi is making a case for both awards so far.

Jordan and Hakeem.