Spurs tied for 2nd best defensive team in league thus far; remind me of my childhood

[SnakeBoy]

Spurs are working hard to reclaim the boring le.

[Mr Bones]

Remind me of my childhood when they started 2 defensive anchors who could both score on the other end as well.


Interestingly, the Miami Heat are the best defensive team in the league currently... but it's awfully early. Hassan Whiteside and Bosh, defensive dynamos?


For the record, Golden State is currently ranked 9th in the NBA on defense... Cleveland is currently ranked 4th but a decent gap behind us and Utah, who are tied for 2nd and 3rd. Oklahoma City tied for 22nd out of 30 teams, pretty bad. L.A. Clippers are 24th, a hair behind the Lakers who are tied for 22nd with OKC. The New Orleans Pelicans are the worst defensive team in the NBA thus far.



I love the defense so far, outside of the first game... gotta get the offense up to speed and we'll be good



GSG

Miami scored with Whiteside: they're paying him less than the Spurs are paying Boban or Bonner. He's gonna make some huge money next summer.

[Perry Mason]

oPPG doesn't really tell the story, though. You could be a walk it up, pound the ball team holding folks to 95 points, but if it only takes 85 shots, opponents will just speed up the game when given the opportunity. It's not that hard if they know they can score more points than possessions. DRtg never lies. If you have a DRtg of 95, you're a good defensive team, no matter the pace of the game.

But that isn't my argument. Your argument seems to be that DRtg is superior in all cir stances, including for a game to game matchup. It is not. There are cir stances where I believe oPPG can be more insightful on a game to game basis, when combined with knowledge of other stats. It's a narrow point, but an important one. You can't just rely on "advanced" statistics to do your thinking for you in all facets of the game. Pop certainly doesn't.

[Kawhitstorm]

Interestingly, the Miami Heat are the best defensive team in the league currently... but it's awfully early. Hassan Whiteside and Bosh, defensive dynamos?

The key to their defense has actually been Winslow.

[exstatic]

But that isn't my argument. Your argument seems to be that DRtg is superior in all cir stances, including for a game to game matchup. It is not. There are cir stances where I believe oPPG can be more insightful on a game to game basis, when combined with knowledge of other stats. It's a narrow point, but an important one. You can't just rely on "advanced" statistics to do your thinking for you in all facets of the game. Pop certainly doesn't.

See cjw's post. GS was 15th in oPPG and 1st in DRtg last year because of the pace they played at. That should show you all you need to know about oPPG. They were an ELITE defense. If you have a DRtg of 92, you're elite and you're going to win a lot of games. You just can't hone in on oPPG relevance without bringing in a WHOLE lot of other stats. On it's own, it's pretty near useless.

[cjw]

Thanks exstatic. People are just trying to talk themselves into Golden State not being as good as they are. They are REALLY good on both sides of the ball. Right now, the Spurs have the best D and a top 8ish offense. Warriors have the best offense by a significant margin and are only a few points worse on D at third.

Not sure if this is more up-to-date or ESPN: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2016.html ... either way, basketball-ref does a great job of letting you sort through all of these stats that ESPN tries charging Insider $ for. The four factors are really telling.

[daslicer]

Thanks exstatic. People are just trying to talk themselves into Golden State not being as good as they are. They are REALLY good on both sides of the ball. Right now, the Spurs have the best D and a top 8ish offense. Warriors have the best offense by a significant margin and are only a few points worse on D at third.

Not sure if this is more up-to-date or ESPN: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2016.html ... either way, basketball-ref does a great job of letting you sort through all of these stats that ESPN tries charging Insider $ for. The four factors are really telling.

Just looked at the link. What I found interesting was the Spurs have the highest overall FG percentage as a team but their 11th in scoring. They are also 15th in 3 point FG percentage. In the past few years the spurs are usually in the top 5 for 3 point FG percentage. The drop in 3 point FG percentage shows the spurs are now a team that relies more on mid range jump shots and post ups due to the way the roster is assembled.

[cjw]

Just looked at the link. What I found interesting was the Spurs have the highest overall FG percentage as a team but their 11th in scoring. They are also 15th in 3 point FG percentage. In the past few years the spurs are usually in the top 5 for 3 point FG percentage. The drop in 3 point FG percentage shows the spurs are now a team that relies more on mid range jump shots and post ups due to the way the roster is assembled.

Yeah - they're 27th in the league right now in % of shots taken from 3. There's definitely more mid-range and post game, but they're still scoring efficiently (eFG% and TS% are both top 3-4). Midrange isn't necessarily a bad thing - huge difference between an open 10-15 footer created in the flow of the offense vs. Dion Waiters stepping on the line and chucking up a long 2 on an ISO.

That said, 22.6% have been from 16+ feet 2's, which is actually more than the 21.6% of FGA from three. That's disconcerting. If only those guys had a little more range. On the other hand, shooting from 16+ does mean more floor spacing. Shooting a respectable 44% from that distance, but that's the same as shooting 30% from three...

Let's hope the shot selection improves while LMA gets integrated. In the meantime, I'll take the elite D.

[Spurtacular]

Disagree... while I'm a business analytics major, for this particular statistic I prefer the nominal stat over the adjusted one.

Thus, I value oppPPG more than advanced defensive rating.

Keeping the pace slow and manageable is especially important against the better offensive teams in the league because it stifles them; the problem with only looking at efficiency or per 100 is that it doesn't factor in pace. The teams that disallow such teams to see the ball go in as much as possible are the best defensive teams because it psychologically deflates them, not seeing the ball go in much in a longer time period as opposed to scoring more points albeit on more possessions.


Thus, the Spurs are tied with Utah for 2nd best on D in the league, behind the Heat who don't have a great offense so they don't win consistently.

Your point(s) have merit; but when a team plays at a higher tempo, they're gonna give up more points. Accounting for pace matters. But I agree that teams that slow the game down tend to be the biggest defensive juggernauts.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Spurs had early troubles with transition defense, but have since fixed that problem. I believe that the defensive rotations are the main focus of Pop and the team right now, being that it's a young season and this is a new team. I would be worried about the offense, if I actually thought Pop was trying to stress anything other than pushing the pace, ball movement. It looks to me like the only set play they're running is the weave, but for now, it looks like a feel it out and see what works kinda thing.

[TrainOfThought5]

The good news is, many were worried about the defense more than anything. Losing Tiago was tough from a defensive perspective, but like many thought the defense would survive. To see the chemistry this early is really good. It's not without holes (Boris/West, athletic PG's) but for the most part its a strong enough defense to compete for a le.

Offensively is the bigger adjustment and to be honest, it's pretty damn good. Still question marks there too (getting LMA involved naturally, can Kawhi keep up his play, Danny Green's shot chart/woes, TP lasting, 3PT shooting), but again, there's been a lot more good than bad. If the offense reaches it's potential then damn, the defense is clearly good enough with that.

Assuming we can maintain a top 3 defense, what do you think we'll need from the offense to ring? Top 10? 5? 3?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Assuming we can maintain a top 3 defense, what do you think we'll need from the offense to ring? Top 10? 5? 3?

I think we were like in the 8-15 range in 2003 and won the championship

[DPG21920]

Assuming we can maintain a top 3 defense, what do you think we'll need from the offense to ring? Top 10? 5? 3?

I don't think there is any question being in the top 10 offensively with a top 3 defense is good enough and I think SA is already easily in the top 10 offensively.

I would imagine this offense will be top 5 for sure, with a ceiling of top 3. So if healthy, I absoultely see a contender.

[LonghornMike]

I think we can't get to worked up about ratings. In the playoffs it will come down to match-ups. For example, I'm still not sure who our crunch time line up against GS is.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The Spurs have ranked 2nd, 3rd and 3rd on defense the past 3 years, tbh..this is like the 10th time in the past 2 weeks I've heard somebody mention how the Spurs are "back to being a defensive team" ..

They have been a better defensive team than offense since Kawhi and Green were inserted into the SL..it has just been overshadowed by the offensive style of play in the Euro-ball Spurs era..

Since Spurs drafted Kawhi, they have been in the top 5 each season I believe. Without him (games he didn't play in), they are in the 10-15 range. Kawhi is the best defender in the game right now and usually the best defender in the league makes that kind of impact on his team.

[Chinook]

For example, I'm still not sure who our crunch time line up against GS is.

It would depend on who Golden State plays, but I would assume Green, Leonard and LMA would be fixtures with two of Parker, Manu, Diaw and Duncan. Against the Warriors' Finals lineup, I would have Ginobili, Green, Leonard, Diaw and LMA. Three of those guys can post up and everyone can shoot the three.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

It would depend on who Golden State plays, but I would assume Green, Leonard and LMA would be fixtures with two of Parker, Manu, Diaw and Duncan. Against the Warriors' Finals lineup, I would have Ginobili, Green, Leonard, Diaw and LMA. Three of those guys can post up and everyone can shoot the three.

Not that I disagree with your line-up, though it's difficult to say before we've seen them play in the regular season, but I think our best chance against GS would be to force them to match up with the line-up the Spurs would put on the floor, rather than responding to theirs and playing their game. Spurs won't outshoot them, won't outrun them but if they can slow the pace down as much as possible and hurt them under the basket with Duncan and LMA ( but also with Leonard and Boris posting up ) then they'd have a chance.

Biggest factor offensively would be whether LMA can score consistently on Green, who is much smaller than him. I think this match-up would be the key forcing one team or the other to respond. If GS are forced to play a lot of Bogut and Ezeli, ideally all game long, then the pace would be slower and it'd give Duncan someone he won't have trouble defending. If GS throw the finals line-up then they'll be successful offensively against the Spurs no matter what Pop throws at them , but would they be able to stop LMA and Duncan? I don't think so. This is why I'd love to see the Spurs play as big as possible against them, even when they go small.

[Fireball]

I love how this defense creates so many deflections and steals. But in the end, we played only one team that matters so far and it scored 112 points. Its far too early to tell where the Spur really rank defensively.

[Chinook]

Not that I disagree with your line-up, though it's difficult to say before we've seen them play in the regular season, but I think our best chance against GS would be to force them to match up with the line-up the Spurs would put on the floor, rather than responding to theirs and playing their game. Spurs won't outshoot them, won't outrun them but if they can slow the pace down as much as possible and hurt them under the basket with Duncan and LMA ( but also with Leonard and Boris posting up ) then they'd have a chance.

Biggest factor offensively would be whether LMA can score consistently on Green, who is much smaller than him. I think this match-up would be the key forcing one team or the other to respond. If GS are forced to play a lot of Bogut and Ezeli, ideally all game long, then the pace would be slower and it'd give Duncan someone he won't have trouble defending. If GS throw the finals line-up then they'll be successful offensively against the Spurs no matter what Pop throws at them , but would they be able to stop LMA and Duncan? I don't think so. This is why I'd love to see the Spurs play as big as possible against them, even when they go small.

I think the Warriors would be fine trading twos for threes, personally. There are ways to compensate for being small; there are fewer for being slow.

The thing is, Manu/Green/Leonard/Diaw/Aldridge is not a small lineup. It's still much bigger than what Golden State would be running. Diaw would eat Barnes alive in the post (much more so that Duncan would), and LMA has had success against Green. So that leaves Iggy to have to choose between Ginobili and Leonard, which is picking your poison is Manu can still be effective in at that point in the year. Thompson would have to take the other, and his legs will probably get tired defending Leonard in the post if Iggy takes Manu. Then it's just Steph vs Green, and you can just run a lot of screen plays to make Curry work or switch onto someone else.

[ceperez]

Remind me of my childhood when they started 2 defensive anchors who could both score on the other end as well.


Interestingly, the Miami Heat are the best defensive team in the league currently... but it's awfully early. Hassan Whiteside and Bosh, defensive dynamos?


For the record, Golden State is currently ranked 9th in the NBA on defense... Cleveland is currently ranked 4th but a decent gap behind us and Utah, who are tied for 2nd and 3rd. Oklahoma City tied for 22nd out of 30 teams, pretty bad. L.A. Clippers are 24th, a hair behind the Lakers who are tied for 22nd with OKC. The New Orleans Pelicans are the worst defensive team in the NBA thus far.



I love the defense so far, outside of the first game... gotta get the offense up to speed and we'll be good



GSG

Miami has always had good defense. The drop off with losing Lebron is compensated by a legit center in Whiteside.

[ceperez]

Just looked at the link. What I found interesting was the Spurs have the highest overall FG percentage as a team but their 11th in scoring. They are also 15th in 3 point FG percentage. In the past few years the spurs are usually in the top 5 for 3 point FG percentage. The drop in 3 point FG percentage shows the spurs are now a team that relies more on mid range jump shots and post ups due to the way the roster is assembled.

FG percentage can't match effective FG percentage. The Warriors launching lower percentage 3 point attempts will always trump Spurs making higher percentage mid-range jumpers.

The current Spurs scheme works only for the current bad crop of teams they are playing, and isn't going to translate to challenge the Warriors.

I had hoped that Spurs had gone for D. Green vs Aldrige. He would have been cheaper and it would have taken one weapon away from the Warriors.

Aldridge is good, but doesn't seem to be explosive and dominant enough to change a game.

[ceperez]

I think the Warriors would be fine trading twos for threes, personally. There are ways to compensate for being small; there are fewer for being slow.

The thing is, Manu/Green/Leonard/Diaw/Aldridge is not a small lineup. It's still much bigger than what Golden State would be running. Diaw would eat Barnes alive in the post (much more so that Duncan would), and LMA has had success against Green. So that leaves Iggy to have to choose between Ginobili and Leonard, which is picking your poison is Manu can still be effective in at that point in the year. Thompson would have to take the other, and his legs will probably get tired defending Leonard in the post if Iggy takes Manu. Then it's just Steph vs Green, and you can just run a lot of screen plays to make Curry work or switch onto someone else.

Right now... the entire season will boil down to how Spurs can beat the Warriors. Spurs so far haven't been able to stop dynamic guards. Portland was giving the Spurs fits.

It may boil down to who can contain Curry. Make that weapon inefficient and the Spurs win. Somehow the Cavs were able to do that last season.

[daslicer]

FG percentage can't match effective FG percentage. The Warriors launching lower percentage 3 point attempts will always trump Spurs making higher percentage mid-range jumpers.

The current Spurs scheme works only for the current bad crop of teams they are playing, and isn't going to translate to challenge the Warriors.

I had hoped that Spurs had gone for D. Green vs Aldrige. He would have been cheaper and it would have taken one weapon away from the Warriors.

Aldridge is good, but doesn't seem to be explosive and dominant enough to change a game.

I agree with what are you saying when it comes to 3's vs 2 pointers. That's one of my concerns in facing the warriors that their ability to hit 3's at a high percentage will beat the spurs mid range game. The challenge for the spurs is to find ways in defending the warrior's 3 point shooting and also find ways in limiting their ability to get good 3 point shots. Both will be hard to do since the warriors are a great passing team.

D.Green is very important part of the warriors and he's super versatile. A great defender, can hit the 3's, along with being a good passer. I doubt the warriors would have allowed him to go to the Spurs for any price they would have matched it. Aldridge can be dominant he was in the 2014 playoffs against the Rockets when he had back to back 40 point games against them. Aldridge's game is similar to Nowitzki except he doesn't have the 3 point shooting abilities. The spurs have to find a way that he can be effective in their system offensively. I have faith they will figure it out sometime this season.

[Mel_13]

I had hoped that Spurs had gone for D. Green vs Aldrige. He would have been cheaper and it would have taken one weapon away from the Warriors.

Green was a restricted free agent. He wasn't available.

[Yuixafun]

Man, last time we played the Warriors, Kawhi won the DPOY from shutting down Curry. Something like 7 steals... that whole team looked deflated late in the season leaving, getting lambasted by the Spurs.

Yes, they're the "Champs," but they didn't go through us.
We were beating them before, and the Spurs have morphed into a seemingly even tougher match up for the small ball Warriors.
KL has improved dramatically and is still growing.
Curry is in his prime now, playing with immense confidence, and seeing the game so much better....
But not with the Claw in his face.

We're going to beat speed and finesse with, power timing execution and pressure.

Spurs are loaded on offense, when they start clicking more the ppg will explode.
And the defense has flashes of being terrific.

We have perimeter aces, Savvy defenders in Duncan and even Anderson, physical bangers now with LMA and West, pesky quick guys with Mills Manu and Tony...

It's exciting to witness this incarnation of the Spurs.

Reminds me a little bit of the mix that Boston threw together several years ago. Just get the gut feeling that they have the right pieces and motivation to ring again.