Lakers: Kevin Pelton: Why Kobe Bryant is NOT a top-10 all-time player

[Spurs 4 The Win]

So a 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO game is a good performance. But a 9-21, 25, 6 TO game is ing abhorrent?

Yeah, having more combined shots and turnovers than points generally means it was a terrible game

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Not much dumber than talking rings like they are so heavily weighted, then throwing out qualifiers to make your point like "alpha rings" .

I agree there is some commons sense needed and rings are important, but the "count them rings" arguments are outdated and a huge reason why Kobe fans are struggling to see things for what they are (like most evolving sports writers see things now with the proliferation of stats in analysis).

Once you get to the point where you've reached (and won) multiple finals, its stops being important. Obviously, having only 2 FMVP out of 7 trips (5 total wins) shows you a certain thing. It's not to knock Kobe, but there are so many variables in the playoffs and yes, regular season is a HUGE part of ranking players.

People always love to throw out "clutch" because of a big playoff game or series, but the truth is that regular seasons matter and are more statistically relevant. Playoffs grab the glory (and rightfully so because the objective for the team is to win a le), but weighting playoffs so much heavier and doing ring smack? It really is the lowest form of debating sports now.

You have to look beyond the stereotypes (Kobe clutch shooting, etc..). You have to look beyond rings (is a guy really considered better because he played in the biggest advantaged market in the league vs CLE + supporting casts like Shaq, Pau, etc..).

LeBron has 2 FMVP in 6 trips...

[Killakobe81]

Not much dumber than talking rings like they are so heavily weighted, then throwing out qualifiers to make your point like "alpha rings" .

I agree there is some commons sense needed and rings are important, but the "count them rings" arguments are outdated and a huge reason why Kobe fans are struggling to see things for what they are (like most evolving sports writers see things now with the proliferation of stats in analysis).

Once you get to the point where you've reached (and won) multiple finals, its stops being important. Obviously, having only 2 FMVP out of 7 trips (5 total wins) shows you a certain thing. It's not to knock Kobe, but there are so many variables in the playoffs and yes, regular season is a HUGE part of ranking players.

People always love to throw out "clutch" because of a big playoff game or series, but the truth is that regular seasons matter and are more statistically relevant. Playoffs grab the glory (and rightfully so because the objective for the team is to win a le), but weighting playoffs so much heavier and doing ring smack? It really is the lowest form of debating sports now.

You have to look beyond the stereotypes (Kobe clutch shooting, etc..). You have to look beyond rings (is a guy really considered better because he played in the biggest advantaged market in the league vs CLE + supporting casts like Shaq, Pau, etc..).

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? Is that ll his fault? No. But , if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

[wekko368]

Game 4? that looks like Kobe's Game 7 ...

Yep, those are Kobe's stats from the 4 Laker victories in the 2010 finals.

Basically, if Spurs4theWin is going to argue that Lebron choked in 2007, then he has to acknowledge that Kobe choked in 2010. The difference is, the Lakers had the best frontcourt in the league and were able to win in spite of Kobe's poor performances. Meanwhile, the Cavs had nobody.

[wekko368]

Yeah, having more combined shots and turnovers than points generally means it was a terrible game

Nope. Those stat lines are on par with each other. By referring to Lebron's as " ing abhorrent" and Kobe's as a "good performance", you're showing your double standards.

[Killakobe81]

Yep, those are Kobe's stats from the 4 Laker victories in the 2010 finals.

Basically, if Spurs4theWin is going to argue that Lebron choked in 2007, then he has to acknowledge that Kobe choked in 2010. The difference is, the Lakers had the best frontcourt in the league and were able to win in spite of Kobe's poor performances. Meanwhile, the Cavs had nobody.

Kobe did choke in Game 7. who here Laker fan or Kobe stan can argue that? Kobe admitted himself after that game. In Fact MWP was the most clutch in that game 7 even more so than Pau or Kobe.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Nope. Those stat lines are on par with each other. By referring to Lebron's as " ing abhorrent" and Kobe's as a "good performance", you're showing your double standards.

Lol, you are acting like I am a Kobe fan when I most certainly am not. In fact I have Kobe at 9 and Lebron at 10. Its not like I think either is God reincarnated. Lebron has a much higher ceiling but if he retired tomorrow, he would be behind Kobe.

[DPG21920]

LeBron has 2 FMVP in 6 trips...

That is exactly my point.

[wekko368]

Lol, you are acting like I am a Kobe fan when I most certainly am not. In fact I have Kobe at 9 and Lebron at 10. Its not like I think either is God reincarnated. Lebron has a much higher ceiling but if he retired tomorrow, he would be behind Kobe.

Incorrect. Lebron is already ahead of Kobe. 4 MVP's isn't something you can trivialize.

[DPG21920]

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? Is that ll his fault? No. But , if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

I never said rings don't matter. I said all things being equal, sure, give the tie-breaker. But when you are talking about people that have all won multiple rings, have finals mvps & been to numerous finals, yeah, it becomes less of a factor. Especially when certain players (Duncan/Lebron) absoultely destroy Kobe in most every other single advanced metric.

If you are comparing Kobe to Nash? Sure, absolutely, rings matter. If you care comparing him to Lebron? It holds way less water to me since they have both been there and done that so many times and have the same amount of finals MVPS to show for it.

But one has better all around metrics in a bigger sample size (regular season) not to mention more hardware where it matters most (League MVP's).

I don't see how this is really not common sense at this point other than (like I've said) just "eye-ball testing" or generic arguments. It doesn't mean Kobe sucks. He's been great.

[DPG21920]

It's funny, but to me it boils down to this: If you gave other players (like Lebron) the same setup as Kobe, would they be even more highly regarded? I think that is the easiest yes in mankind.

There is a massive difference in playing for La than CLE. LA has the most built in advantages it's not even funny. You better win when people flock to play for your because of where you are located and the market. You better win when you have a front office that pairs you with Shaq for a huge stretch of your career. That pairs you with Odom/Pau/Howard/etc...

If you put Kobe in Lebron's situation no way in does he have as much going on for him as Lebron does. , he doesn't have anything but extra les to his name with the advantages. It's not just because of his at ude either, but his skillset and style of play.

If Lebron was in Kobe's shoes, I don't think there is any argument that he has more to his name than Kobe does. If that's the case and you can reasonably agree with that take, then I don't see how you can go to the rings argument for Kobe over Lebron. There are a ton of factors.

Kevin Love is absolutely a regular season star, but yes, he gets penalized because he's never carried anyone like Lebron. He certainly doesn't defend like Lebron which is a huge part of the equation (not to mention going on legit terrors like being and MVP 4x).

[wekko368]

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

If Duncan and Shaq each had 4 les, Duncan would still be ahead of Shaq. He has more MVPs, and his 2003 le run (due to his lack of star teammates) was more impressive than any of Shaq's les.

[HarlemHeat37]

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats ing stupid.

Why are you putting Russell and Horry in the same category?

[BD24]

Still got love for you tho, Killa. Best laker poster on ST

Agree with this 100%

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Why are you putting Russell and Horry in the same category?

Cuz they both got a ton of rings that would overrate them if you went by just a ring count. Russell got to play in an era with weaker compe ion and fewer teams and Horry was arole player for all of his.

[Arcadian]

More butthurt Spur fans.

Please, the only one butthurt here is you.

[DAF86]

GTFO with Durant and Curry lmfao

Did you read what I wrote or did you just skim through it? I didn't say Durant and Curry were ahead of Kobe, although if Curry wins it all this year, he would already have a case.

[Galileo]

Jerry West was better than Kobe.

[DAF86]

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats ing stupid.

Please follow your advice and stop repeating "Kobe has 5 rings" like he had won those 5 rings as the alpha of his team.

[Raven]

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? Is that ll his fault? No. But , if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

Kirby never sniffed the play offs without a top 3 center. Just saying...

[TrainOfThought5]

People honestly believe that Kobe is better all-time than Lebron??? How?? Lebron is 2x the player that Kobe is.

[ambchang]

Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...


Metrics better than eye test

I said I like those metrics, when?

[DMC]

Some other names on that list are laughable to be ranked that high. In my opinion that renders the list invalid for all time great talks. David is ranked above Tim.

[Killakobe81]

I said I like those metrics, when?

You did not just dog piled on Kobe so I threw you in as I was laughing at that list ... guilt by association, brother.

[Killakobe81]

It's funny, but to me it boils down to this: If you gave other players (like Lebron) the same setup as Kobe, would they be even more highly regarded? I think that is the easiest yes in mankind.

There is a massive difference in playing for La than CLE. LA has the most built in advantages it's not even funny. You better win when people flock to play for your because of where you are located and the market. You better win when you have a front office that pairs you with Shaq for a huge stretch of your career. That pairs you with Odom/Pau/Howard/etc...

If you put Kobe in Lebron's situation no way in does he have as much going on for him as Lebron does. , he doesn't have anything but extra les to his name with the advantages. It's not just because of his at ude either, but his skillset and style of play.

If Lebron was in Kobe's shoes, I don't think there is any argument that he has more to his name than Kobe does. If that's the case and you can reasonably agree with that take, then I don't see how you can go to the rings argument for Kobe over Lebron. There are a ton of factors.

Kevin Love is absolutely a regular season star, but yes, he gets penalized because he's never carried anyone like Lebron. He certainly doesn't defend like Lebron which is a huge part of the equation (not to mention going on legit terrors like being and MVP 4x).

OK,let me get this straight Kobe is playing with the FO led by a guy regularly called Fredo. The CBA and rules changes have tilted to favor him.In fact he was the power player in the Union that agreed to the new CBA. He has played for Riles and with Bosh and Wade. Now gets to run a front office basically and call his own shots ...but you want to point to the Lakers advantages? The same ones that was wiped away 5 years ago? I defend Mitch but Jerry west has been gone for the Lakers over 10 years now. So just stop with the LeBron excuse making. He doesn't need any. he is the GOAT SF ...getting to run rough shod over a ty Eastern conference.
For the record I agree prime Lebron is better. Career wise right now (not just by rings) I can see a debate between the two based on accomplishments and longevity.
James is on pace to smash every career record Kobe has and do it more efficiently. So it's not crazy to say Lebron is greater than Kobe in fact it'sprobably inevitable for him to surpass Kobe if he hasn't already.
But stop acting like James has been some victim of cir stances he has had plenty of things in his favor as well.