Kawhi now leads all small forwards in real plus-minus for the year

[spursistan]

Kyle, like LMA, is a guy who we most worried about on Defensive end; instead, he has been doing far better there being quite a disruptive force with his long arms..Hopefully he starts getting better shots (preferably 3s), because those bailout leaners/floaters are going to stop dropping at some point...But, any way you put it, we have got something in him definitely better than your typical 30th pick in the draft..

[Mr Bones]

I don't disagree one bit. But look at the le and intended purpose (OP) of this thread.

The intended purpose of the thread was to say that Kawhi leads all SFs in that particular stat... I think that's very interesting, but I didn't add "this proves Kawhi is better than LeBron" or anything like that... you're reading more into the intended purpose than I meant, which is exactly the problem you identify with stats, that some people over-value the stat above the eye test, or don't balance them out. I've posted quotes from Dean Oliver, the original defensive stat guru, numerous times about the shortcomings of the stat. I don't view it in any way as infallible, but it's definitely interesting enough to look at once a week. Do you really never look at those stats? or would you say you're more likely to look at them with a skeptical eye?

[Chinook]

And as I've said before, I'm not a fan of people using advanced stats if they aren't aware of the math that underlies them. Advanced stats are not improvements on counting stats. They are arguments which rely on a manipulation of numbers to make their claims. Just like all arguments, they can be flawed and criticized. They don't have the power of truth that counting stats do. I've said this for a long time.

[Mr Bones]

And as I've said before, I'm not a fan of people using advanced stats if they aren't aware of the math that underlies them. Advanced stats are not improvements on counting stats. They are arguments which rely on a manipulation of numbers to make their claims. Just like all arguments, they can be flawed and criticized. They don't have the power of truth that counting stats do. I've said this for a long time.

Agree 100%.

[GSH]

The intended purpose of the thread was to say that Kawhi leads all SFs in that particular stat... I think that's very interesting, but I didn't add "this proves Kawhi is better than LeBron" or anything like that... you're reading more into the intended purpose than I meant, which is exactly the problem you identify with stats, that some people over-value the stat above the eye test, or don't balance them out. I've posted quotes from Dean Oliver, the original defensive stat guru, numerous times about the shortcomings of the stat. I don't view it in any way as infallible, but it's definitely interesting enough to look at once a week. Do you really never look at those stats? or would you say you're more likely to look at them with a skeptical eye?

Fair enough. I'm no mind reader.

I can tell you that I honestly do not look at RPM or RAPM. Other stats I look at a lot, but not those. Ever. (Unless I get into a discussion about them, and need to blow them up.)

Brian Cardinal and Steve Novak leap to mind. Admittedly, Cardinal made 2/3 of his shots in the Finals one year - but the next season he shot something like 25% for the season. Novak was never under-rated, either. He was exactly what everyone thought he was. Good 3P shooter, but not a diamond in the rough.

Echhh... enough said. Some people believe in it, I don't.

[Chinook]

It's worth noting though, that Anderson is fifth (might be fourth) in the league (total, not just among SFs) in DRtg for guys who have played at least 100 minutes. I don't love that stat, either. But the fact that both of them and DBPM point to Anderson having an elite defensive impact is a great, great sign.

[TheDoctor]

Keep it up Kawhi!

[Kawhitstorm]

Last year for the whole damn season, Al-Farouq Aminou was fourth, ahead of James and some other guys people have actually watched play. I've had this discussion (argument) with a couple of guys here before. Real Plus Minus, just like RAPM, tells you a few things everybody already knows - like "Kawhi Leonard is a damned good defender". And then it tells you a bunch of things that are just patently false - like "Al-Farouq Aminu is a better defender than LeBron".

Aminu did actually have a better season on defense than LeBron. Aminu played Harden as well as anyone in the playoffs once he was inserted into the starting lineup for Gms 4/5 meanwhile LeBron was impersonating Harden on defense.

[GSH]

Aminu did actually have a better season on defense than LeBron. Aminu played Harden as well as anyone in the playoffs once he was inserted into the starting lineup for Gms 4/5 meanwhile LeBron was impersonating Harden on defense.

You don't even make sense to yourself. You're talking about a season stat, and basing your opinion on two games? Ummm... yeah.

For the rest of you, here's an article from PTR that describes just a few of the problems and anomalies with RPM. I pulled some selected quotes. Note that last year, when it said that Leonard wasn't as good as you think he is, most Spurs fans would have rejected RPM. But when it says that Leonard is the best, you're true believers.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/...eal-plus-minus

"It was amusing and entirely predictable that one of the main ways ESPN introduced the stat was by settling the supposed debate for the Sixth Man of the Year award between Chicago's Taj Gibson and the Clippers' Jamal Crawford. *Spoiler Alert* The column concluded that Gibson is the more valuable player.... The amusing part, naturally, is that the article made no mention of one Manu Ginobili, whose RPM dwarfs both Gibson's and Crawford's. One would think that Ilardi's article would trumpet Ginobili's merits for the "6MOY" instead of lauding Gibson's"

"You look at the overall leaders in RPM, and it looks legitimate, more or less, with a couple of notable exceptions, as to what you would expect a who's who of the league's best to look like. Where RPM starts to lose me though, is with Kawhi Leonard, and while I admit I'm looking through the prism of black and silver tinted glasses, Leonard's ratings still have me baffled."

"Leonard ranks 14th (14th!?) among small forwards, behind such luminaries as Atlanta's DeMarre Carroll, Dallas' Jae Crowder, Chicago's Mike Dunleavy and the Clippers' Matt Barnes. Carmelo Anthony ranks ninth....Meanwhile, offensively Leonard is the 27th ranked small forward, behind such juggernauts as Barnes, Carroll, Crowder, Minnesota's Corey Brewer, the Clippers' Danny Granger and noted shooting wizard Josh Smith of the Pistons. Leonard is shooting 53 percent from the field, 38 percent from three and is among the leaders at his position in both offensive and defensive rebounds. I don't think all of that is due to his teammates making him look good."

"Leonard aside, the other way RPM loses me is when it lionizes backup big men such as OKC's Nick Collison, Miami's Chris Andersen and, to a lesser degree, Gibson. However, in that regard, net rating does the same thing....The thing is, Collison couldn't play a lot even if Brooks wanted him to. He averages 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes, meaning he'd be a regular threat to foul out as a featured player. He's valuable, but he's not some diamond in the rough. He's a bench guy who happens to be on a team with superduperstars on it. That's it."

"The reason I've always given Ginobili's numbers more credence than other reserves (besides my biases, of course) is because over the course of his career he's shown he can be completely kick-ass as a starter, playing against other starters. Plus, Gregg Popovich still plays him down the stretch, which matters. If your coach doesn't trust you to be on the floor in the final five minutes of a close game, what good are you ultimately? Still, I think at some point we do have to recognize volume. Minutes matter. Being able to produce for longer stretches matters. It's well and good Ginobili plays like an All-Star for 23 minutes, but there is still the matter of the other 25. If Ginobili gives you A- production for 23 minutes, that's not as valuable as a player who gives you B+ production for 35. Even as biased as a I am, I'm not blind to that reality."

[Obstructed_View]

Matt Bonner must hate him.

[YGWHI]

Matt Bonner must hate him.

Sources say he gave Kawhi that poisoned cheesesteak sandwich...

[YGWHI]

Note that last year, when it said that Leonard wasn't as good as you think he is, most Spurs fans would have rejected RPM. But when it says that Leonard is the best, you're true believers....Leonard ranks 14th (14th!?) among small forwards

Last season, Kawhi finished #5 among all players, not only small forwards.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp.../2015/sort/RPM

[YGWHI]

Kawhi ranking in the top 5 in RPM and PER, he's the only perimeter player averaging at least a steal and a block per game, and shooting 50% on 3's.

Not bad.

[bic50]

Kawhi ranking in the top 5 in RPM and PER, he's the only perimeter player averaging at least a steal and a block per game, and shooting 50% on 3's.

Not bad.

[SupremeGuy]

yeah, Kawhi has been kicking ass and taking names this year. I think he's only had maybe one or two "bad" games this year and one of those was the last one where he had the s.

[Chinook]

PtR is like the worst evidence ever.

[Kawhitstorm]

You don't even make sense to yourself. You're talking about a season stat, and basing your opinion on two games? Ummm... yeah.

Big Dummy, you don't need stats to see Aminu was a better defender than LeBron last season. Watch the game when Harden destroyed LeBron then watch Aminu guarding Harden. It's common knowledge that LeBron was shyt on defense last season to the point where a motivated Harden was playing better D. Does it make Harden a better defender, no. But if you aren't trying then you aren't playing defense, so having the ability/talent is irrelevant. For example, Harden is the worst defender in the league b/c he doesn't try, if you watch him in OKC he was at worst an average defender.

[Kool Bob Love]

Meh.

[tholdren]

PtR is like the worst evidence ever.

48 moh

[bic50]

^^Frauds are back

[dabom]