ESPN: Has lost all credibility, the Lebron v Jordan debate. Or lack there of.

[HarlemHeat37]

First off, congrats to Lebron James bringing at le to Cleveland, for the fans. Not for him, personally Golden State folded like a Trump commentary post debate. Trying to ask: Can Lebron pass MJ as the greatest of all time?, is similar to asking if Alex Rodriguez deserves a HOF plaque. The answer is simple: No. Michael Jordan would have ate up and spit out Lebron. His mental toughness is miles ahead of Lebron's. He won with teams that outside of Pippen and perhaps Grant, lacked anything more than role players. Jordan wouldn't lose to Dallas in 2012, in fact he would have buried them. Furthermore, the futility of Lebron needed to be surrounded by stars, furthermore postures to his ego, and inability to do it on his own. I'm not a Lebron hater, he's one of the most physically gifted point forwards of all time. He's the closest thing to Oscar Robertson in his lifetime. But, there are intangibles that wouldn't even come close. Lebron is an athlete, Jordan is a basketball player. Okay, rant over. No one will ever touch Jordan, Kobe couldn't and there is no damn chance that James is even worth more than debate in the top five argument. He's 3-6 in his championships. While he's gotten to the dance multiple times he plays in a weaker conference. His team wouldn't make it past San Antonio, OKC and other teams that play fundamental basketball.

The Bulls were 1 shot away from the ECFs without him

[cd98]

I believe Jordan has the same number of les as Lebron at Lebron's age. I don't like either player as their egos are so over the top. But Lebron is actually more likeable than Jordan. But in terms of basketball, Lebron is absolutely on Jordan's level and his size and speed make him a monster match up. He's maybe not as clutch as Jordan, but he's pretty damn clutch as he put up a classic game in a game 7 on the road against a team that set the regular season record for most wins.

[Spurtacular]

First off, congrats to Lebron James bringing at le to Cleveland, for the fans. Not for him, personally Golden State folded like a Trump commentary post debate. Trying to ask: Can Lebron pass MJ as the greatest of all time?, is similar to asking if Alex Rodriguez deserves a HOF plaque. The answer is simple: No. Michael Jordan would have ate up and spit out Lebron. His mental toughness is miles ahead of Lebron's. He won with teams that outside of Pippen and perhaps Grant, lacked anything more than role players. Jordan wouldn't lose to Dallas in 2012, in fact he would have buried them. Furthermore, the futility of Lebron needed to be surrounded by stars, furthermore postures to his ego, and inability to do it on his own. I'm not a Lebron hater, he's one of the most physically gifted point forwards of all time. He's the closest thing to Oscar Robertson in his lifetime. But, there are intangibles that wouldn't even come close. Lebron is an athlete, Jordan is a basketball player. Okay, rant over. No one will ever touch Jordan, Kobe couldn't and there is no damn chance that James is even worth more than debate in the top five argument. He's 3-6 in his championships. While he's gotten to the dance multiple times he plays in a weaker conference. His team wouldn't make it past San Antonio, OKC and other teams that play fundamental basketball.

C+

[.G.]

The Pistons used to make Dad Killer cry like the little he truly was. He needed to beg Stern to change the rules of the league to neuter them - the most made move ever.

"The ultimate compe or" - that schtick is almost as fraudulent for DK as it is with Kobe.

He was the ultimate compe or

[Proxy]

All I'm seeing in OP's post is

My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,salt,My opinion,My opinion,subjective claim,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,salt,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,,salt,fundamental commentary even tho SAS and OKC played ISO this year,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion,My opinion, salt,My opinion,

[YGWHI]

Well, Jordan would make the winning shot against Warriors, not Kyrie.

If everything is reduced to "Who would you rather have taking the last shot?" I'd say MJ, without doubts.

[skulls138]

The Bulls were 1 shot away from the ECFs without him

Bulls almost made the Finals, they were already in the ECF, just to clarify.

[Obstructed_View]

Bulls almost made the Finals, they were already in the ECF, just to clarify.

Pretty sure that's not correct. He only missed one complete season. They lost in the conference semis in both '94 and when he came back in '95.

Also, I don't think they were one shot from the conference finals anyway. Pippen was pretty terrible in that game.

[SASdynasty!]

It's close. Lebron is on pace (actually outpacing Jordan) in terms of awards, but not raw stats (although he played in a faster-paced era). Jordan had way stronger conference compe ion, whereas Lebron had way stronger Finals compe ion. After 31, Jordan would only make the playoffs 3 more times (all les). That will be difficult for Lebron to match, but possible.

At 31 years old:

Michael Jordan:
3x champion
3x FMVP
3 Finals
3 MVPS
RS: 32/6/6/3/1 on 51%
PO: 34/7/7/2/1 on 50%

Lebron James:
3x Champion
3x FMVP
7 Finals
4 MVPs
RS: 27/7/7/2/1 on 50%
PO: 28/9/7/2/1 on 48%

[RD2191]

Are people disregarding the fact that this got joined two other superstars in his prime to win a couple of rings? He'd have maybe 1 le otherwise.

[GSH]

The Triangle would get the kicked out of it now if anyone ran it as a primary offense. Just ask New York.

The Triangle with MJ is a different animal. The Spurs used to live on a steady diet of 4-down. Everyone in the arena knew what was coming, and they still couldn't stop it consistently. Try doing that without Tim Duncan. The same goes for the Triangle with Michael Jordan.

Golden State just showed how difficult it is to win back to back Championships. A three-peat is ridiculous. To win one three-peat, take two years off, and then come back to win another three-peat? I don't care what conference you're in, or what era you played in. Jordan had a lot of help, but he was the undisputed leader of that team, and he came up biggest in the biggest moments. With a mere mortal in his spot, there were too many opportunities to drop games that would have knocked them out of the playoffs. That's why teams don't repeat.

For the record, Stockton and Malone were pretty damned good. As a tandem, they were very damned good. The 97-98 Jazz teams ran the PnR as well or better than it has ever been run. They were physical as . The Bulls didn't beat those Jazz teams - Michael Jordan did. Recency bias is always a problem when comparing players from different eras. LeBron is, without a doubt, the dominant player of this era. But it's hard not to include results in any comparison between him and Jordan. Two three-peats, that could easily have been eight in a row if he hadn't taken those two years off? That's hard to live up to.

[SASdynasty!]

Are people disregarding the fact that this got joined two other superstars in his prime to win a couple of rings? He'd have maybe 1 le otherwise.

Yah but he might already have 4 or 5 if he had the GOAT coach or if all but one of his Finals appearances were against squads that never won a chip (Sonics, Blazers, Suns, Jazz).

[GSH]

Pretty sure that's not correct. He only missed one complete season. They lost in the conference semis in both '94 and when he came back in '95.

Also, I don't think they were one shot from the conference finals anyway. Pippen was pretty terrible in that game.

Jordan came back for 17 games in '95. Pretty ridiculous, after having missed one whole season, and most of that one. In the Conference semis he still averaged 31 points, plus a couple of steals and blocks per game.

[SASdynasty!]

The Triangle with MJ is a different animal. The Spurs used to live on a steady diet of 4-down. Everyone in the arena knew what was coming, and they still couldn't stop it consistently. Try doing that without Tim Duncan. The same goes for the Triangle with Michael Jordan.

Golden State just showed how difficult it is to win back to back Championships. A three-peat is ridiculous. To win one three-peat, take two years off, and then come back to win another three-peat? I don't care what conference you're in, or what era you played in. Jordan had a lot of help, but he was the undisputed leader of that team, and he came up biggest in the biggest moments. With a mere mortal in his spot, there were too many opportunities to drop games that would have knocked them out of the playoffs. That's why teams don't repeat.

For the record, Stockton and Malone were pretty damned good. As a tandem, they were very damned good. The 97-98 Jazz teams ran the PnR as well or better than it has ever been run. They were physical as . The Bulls didn't beat those Jazz teams - Michael Jordan did. Recency bias is always a problem when comparing players from different eras. LeBron is, without a doubt, the dominant player of this era. But it's hard not to include results in any comparison between him and Jordan. Two three-peats, that could easily have been eight in a row if he hadn't taken those two years off? That's hard to live up to.

Easily been 8? Come on. Those Houston squads would have won at least one of those Finals. And if Jordan would have stayed and had to face the '99 Spurs, he's not winning that, nor is he winning against the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Good thing for him he had 5 losing seasons and 5 retirement seasons so his playoff legacy didn't have as good a chance to get tarnished.

[Obstructed_View]

Lots of people who didn't see Jordan play in this thread.

[GSH]

Easily been 8? Come on. Those Houston squads would have won at least one of those Finals. And if Jordan would have stayed and had to face the '99 Spurs, he's not winning that, nor is he winning against the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Good thing for him he had 5 losing seasons and 5 retirement seasons so his playoff legacy didn't have as good a chance to get tarnished.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Maybe Houston still wins those two, maybe they don't. The point is, Chicago was still able to go well into the playoffs without Jordan. With him there, there is no doubt that the Bulls would have been the team to beat. (Yeah, yeah, he played 17 games in 95 - he wasn't "back" to form, by any means.)

... forget about those two years. Two three-peats. If you don't understand how difficult that is, there's no point in talking about it.

Lots of people who didn't see Jordan play in this thread.

That's a damned fact. The Grand Canyon is a big hole in the ground, if you've never seen it.

[keeferob25]

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Maybe Houston still wins those two, maybe they don't. The point is, Chicago was still able to go well into the playoffs without Jordan. With him there, there is no doubt that the Bulls would have been the team to beat. (Yeah, yeah, he played 17 games in 95 - he wasn't "back" to form, by any means.)

... forget about those two years. Two three-peats. If you don't understand how difficult that is, there's no point in talking about it.





That's a damned fact. The Grand Canyon is a big hole in the ground, if you've never seen it.

BINGO! a ring count comparison. Look at HOW they won them. Jordan did it in TWO SEPARATE THREE-PEATS!!! For sake its been basically 17 years since the Bulls broke up and only ONE team has three peated and we ALL know 2002 was a rigged ring so not legit. So not a real threepeat. Jordan did what no team has done since Bill Russell's Celtics lolol...and he did it TWICE!!! Basically, when Jordan got over the hump and his first taste of the Finals in 90-91, all the way to his retirement (8 years), HE WON EVERY YEAR THAT HE PLAYED A FULL SEASON! So if Jordan started the season, no other team had a chance...for 8 straight years! With TWO separate squads!!! That's ing nuts!

Lebron made is first finals in 2007 and has made 6 straight at this point. But he was GOD AWFUL in 2007, STILL has the worst choke job/pussy performance in finals history in 2011, TERRIFIC in 2012, got a 100% gift in 2013 (Spurs were the better team and lost because Duncan's Coach and running mates SABOTAGED him), and got blown off the court in 2014. I don't knock him at all for last year because they were injured. And this year he was spectacular again. Compared to Jordan who's UNBEATEN its not even comparable.

[Russo21]

It's just too hard to compare players from different era's. The game has changed so much it is ridiculous especially with the way teams rain down 3 pointers.

1998 Bulls made 3.8 3 pointers per game on 11.7 attempts at .323
2016 Cavs made 10.7 3 pointers per game on 29.6 attempts at .363
2016 Warriors made 13.1 3 pointers per game on 31.6 attempts at .416

1998 Bulls made 311 of 962 3 pointers
2016 Cavs made 880 of 2427 3 pointers
2016 Warriors made 1077 of 2592 3 pointers

Kukoc led the Bulls with 63 made 3 pointers and Pippen led the team with 192 3 point attempts
JR Smith led the Cavs with 204 3 pointers on 510 attempts
Currymuncher led the Warriors with 402 3 pointers on 886 attempts

Currymuncher took only 76 less 3s than the entire Bulls team combined!

That is the disparity in just one of the statistical categories. Factor in rule changes as well as how the game has changed you never know what woulda happened. It's one of those things when comparing era's, nobody knows and nobody will ever know. One of the great mysteries fans will never know and can debate forever.

Oh and the Warriors

[Clipper Nation]

Are people disregarding the fact that this got joined two other superstars in his prime to win a couple of rings? He'd have maybe 1 le otherwise.

You're disregarding the fact that Washed-Up Wade and RuPaul fell off a cliff after year one and needed LeBron to carry them to it, broke back belly draggin'.

[skulls138]

Pretty sure that's not correct. He only missed one complete season. They lost in the conference semis in both '94 and when he came back in '95.

Also, I don't think they were one shot from the conference finals anyway. Pippen was pretty terrible in that game.

Damn, my bad. Ive been thinking that for along time.

[Obstructed_View]

Damn, my bad. Ive been thinking that for along time.

No worries. I've done that too.

I'm the first person to say that Jordan needed Pippen, but Jordan was still the best player I've ever seen by a wide margin.

[tbdog]

TBH, Lebron regresses now unless he signs with another team. That drive to fulfil that promises has been completed. The drive to carry a team, the emotions over 82 games, and another long playoff run will catch up to him. However, playing for another team could light some fire, especially if he joins a dominate scorer that can carry him through the regular season. For that to happen, he will have to drop his wage.

[tholdren]

Does it really matter? Jordan was the be all end all in the 90's, he runs off 3 straight goes and plays baseball, comes back and wins 3 straight. That's amazing.. But going to the finals 6 times straight regardless if it's a weak conference is pretty awesome. Both great players, both deserve to be in the top 10 of almost everyone's list. MJ will be considered top 1-3 for almost everyone and Lebron will creep into 1-5 for most.

but jordan didnt run to another team. which is why he will always be better.

[russellgoat]

james is a mental midget compared to Jordan.

Jordan always exuded a determination to win that was both innate and insatiable. You could never count dat out.

He was the ultimate compe or, followed only by Duncan.

YeH, the Duncan that missed two easy shots over Battier to win a championship.

[RodNIc91]

Hey fellas, I was wondering which are the best games Jordan has played in your opinion. I wanted to watch them and see Jordan at its greatest, since I'm mostly a modern-day fan who hasn't really watched earlier basketball.