Spurs: Tim Duncan co-wrote a research paper about Kobe at Wake Forest

[Splits]

Why bother to post what I said on LG if you are not gonna read it?

It clearly states in the post you copied nd pasted here that Career wise that "maybe duncan should get the edge"

You still havent explained how that makes me a hypocrite

I was on LG and on here on tim's retirement day saying Duncan had the better career .. but instead of going after the posters who are arguing Kobe did, you came after me ... And failed.

Like Timmy said, reading is FUn-DA-MENTAL

lol meltdown

I didn't misread your LG post, scra. Amb asked you to debate Kobe's peak. In your response, you said no and then said "I already have Duncan with the clear but slighter than most edge. " That is what I "misread", that you were referring to peak not career.

[Killakobe81]

lol meltdown

I didn't misread your LG post, scra. Amb asked you to debate Kobe's peak. In your response, you said no and then said "I already have Duncan with the clear but slighter than most edge. " That is what I "misread", that you were referring to peak not career.

no meltdown calling you out for being wrong.
just like I was once wrong about Kobe's draft position, it happens.
To be fair I could have worded it better but it was meant for Amb, not you ...
And IF i wasnt punding out something on cell I would have worded (the LG post) it, I think Kobe at his peak was greater but Duncan has been more consistently great ... maybe less less highs but definitely less lows too.

I just find it funny in the LG post you pasted here it CLEARLY says "It's close but maybe duncan deserves the edge" ...how is that different then what I said down here or upstairs?
Wouldnt i be a hypocrite (maybe you dont understand the word) IF I went on LG and said Kobe was better but on here something different?

But if being called out for not reading you posted is a meltdown then call me queso.

[Splits]

no meltdown calling you out for being wrong.
just like I was once wrong about Kobe's draft position, it happens.
To be fair I could have worded it better but it was meant for Amb, not you ...
And IF i wasnt punding out something on cell I would have worded (the LG post) it, I think Kobe at his peak was greater but Duncan has been more consistently great ... maybe less less highs but definitely less lows too.

I just find it funny in the LG post you pasted here it CLEARLY says "It's close but maybe duncan deserves the edge" ...how is that different then what I said down here or upstairs?
Wouldnt i be a hypocrite (maybe you dont understand the word) IF I went on LG and said Kobe was better but on here something different?

But if being called out for not reading you posted is a meltdown then call me queso.

How is one supposed to interpret "It's close but maybe duncan deserves the edge"? What is "it" after you just said Kobe had a better peak?

[Killakobe81]

How is one supposed to interpret "It's close but maybe duncan deserves the edge"? What is "it" after you just said Kobe had a better peak?

Again I had plenty of posts on here ... that said exactly what I thought.
the one on LG clearly says at the end, what I said here plenty of times.
I will own wording it poorly but you should own running with the assumption I would say one thing here and one thing there.

You like that chick that thought you had caught me cheating ... realized I was not but still trying to pick a fight and not admitting you assumed wrong ...
It's cool, Let's move on ...

[ambchang]

That is why it's an opinion.
To me arguing who had the better career was worthwhile.
Watching both players. I lean Kobe for peak duncan for career. Both are close.
Obviously I am biased, as are you.
Again, career wise to me it's Timmy but it's close.
If that is not enough for you I don't have anymore to give.
I talked about re-opening the debate once they both retired but really nothing is gonna change unless I go back to placing Kobe over duncan.
Im at peace with my rankings. Feel free to debate Cobbler or Kool

I am not saying you have to see it my way, but I am just failing to understand your logic. Which year(s) was/were Kobe's peak? I can stack any years with Duncan from 2001 to 2004, and Duncan wins by a relatively wide margin in any of them.

Other than usage rate, Kobe never led the league in ANY advanced stats, and that is just embarrassing. None of the other players in the conversation for top 10 all time did not lead the league in advanced stats in any years, and often in multiple categories over multiple years. He only led the league in playoff WS in 2001, and it's only because he played more minutes than Shaq.

Jordan - WS, DWS, VORP, OBPM, BPM, basically you name it, he has it. Same for Lebron
Magic - BPM, VORP, WS/48, OWS, AST%
Bird - OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP, PER
Duncan - Drtg, OWS, DWS, WS, BPM, VORP
Hakeem - Drtg, BLK%, DREB%, DBPM
Moses - All kinds of rebounding metrics, OWS, WS, WS/48
Shaq - PER, OWS, DWS, WS, WS48, BPM, VORP
Kareem - Pretty much everything other than DBPM
Dirk - OWS, WS, WS48
Garnett - WS, DRTG, WS48, BPM, VORP, PER
Big O - WS, OWS, AST% (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Wilt - PER, WS, OWS, DWS, WS48 (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Russell - DWS (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
West - OWS, WS, WS48(didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Dr. J - WS, WS48, BPM, VORP (and I ignored his ABA ones)
Admiral - WS, WS48, DWS, OWS, BLK%, PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP (pretty much everything)
Sir Charles - TS%, ORB%, OBPM, BPM
Pedo - OWS, WS, OBPM, BPM, VORP


The only player who never led the league in anything, but is in the top 20 ever conversation was Isiah Thomas.

The ONLY players in the top 20 in career WS in NBA and ABA combined league history who didn't lead the league in any significant advanced stat were Reggie Miller and Kobe, and even Miller led the league in TS%, ORTG!

Kobe had unquestionably the worst peak of anyone in the top 10 conversation, possibly in the top 15 or even top 20 conversation.

[Killakobe81]

I am not saying you have to see it my way, but I am just failing to understand your logic. Which year(s) was/were Kobe's peak? I can stack any years with Duncan from 2001 to 2004, and Duncan wins by a relatively wide margin in any of them.

Other than usage rate, Kobe never led the league in ANY advanced stats, and that is just embarrassing. None of the other players in the conversation for top 10 all time did not lead the league in advanced stats in any years, and often in multiple categories over multiple years. He only led the league in playoff WS in 2001, and it's only because he played more minutes than Shaq.

Jordan - WS, DWS, VORP, OBPM, BPM, basically you name it, he has it. Same for Lebron
Magic - BPM, VORP, WS/48, OWS, AST%
Bird - OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP, PER
Duncan - Drtg, OWS, DWS, WS, BPM, VORP
Hakeem - Drtg, BLK%, DREB%, DBPM
Moses - All kinds of rebounding metrics, OWS, WS, WS/48
Shaq - PER, OWS, DWS, WS, WS48, BPM, VORP
Kareem - Pretty much everything other than DBPM
Dirk - OWS, WS, WS48
Garnett - WS, DRTG, WS48, BPM, VORP, PER
Big O - WS, OWS, AST% (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Wilt - PER, WS, OWS, DWS, WS48 (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Russell - DWS (didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
West - OWS, WS, WS48(didn't have a lot of the metrics back then)
Dr. J - WS, WS48, BPM, VORP (and I ignored his ABA ones)
Admiral - WS, WS48, DWS, OWS, BLK%, PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP (pretty much everything)
Sir Charles - TS%, ORB%, OBPM, BPM
Pedo - OWS, WS, OBPM, BPM, VORP


The only player who never led the league in anything, but is in the top 20 ever conversation was Isiah Thomas.

The ONLY players in the top 20 in career WS in NBA and ABA combined league history who didn't lead the league in any significant advanced stat were Reggie Miller and Kobe, and even Miller led the league in TS%, ORTG!

Kobe had unquestionably the worst peak of anyone in the top 10 conversation, possibly in the top 15 or even top 20 conversation.

again this was not based on metrics ...but interesting data ...

[ambchang]

again this was not based on metrics ...but interesting data ...

Oh yeah, the "I see it with my eyes" metric, too bad nothing objective ever backs you up.

It's like saying that, "To me, my wife is the hottest woman on earth and my kids are the most beautiful creatures" Sure, no one is going to argue with you on that one, because that is unarguable. Problem is that Kobe is neither your wife nor your kids, and you are treating him as such.

[Killakobe81]

Oh yeah, the "I see it with my eyes" metric, too bad nothing objective ever backs you up.

It's like saying that, "To me, my wife is the hottest woman on earth and my kids are the most beautiful creatures" Sure, no one is going to argue with you on that one, because that is unarguable. Problem is that Kobe is neither your wife nor your kids, and you are treating him as such.

WTF?

I already said I was not being objective. Neither are you.
Hoops will never be all about numbers but I never said anything about the eye test in my post.
The data you provide supports your argument so you feel that means you are not biased?
I could use raw stats to make a case for Kobe to support my logic but I will not because again, it was never about that. And tbh at this point I dont even care that much ...

Again, feel free to argue this with those that care ...

[Phillip]

In which way was Dirk more influential?

All this new trend we are seeing now about stars resigning money to play in compe ive teams started with Tim Duncan and the Spurs. What has Dirk done to influence the NBA more than that?

He's probably talking about "Stretch 4s" but I've yet to see another Dirk since he came into the league other than Dominos shooting one legged fadeaways. (Cliff Robinson/Horry were more influential than Dirk as far as hybrid forwards who can stretch the floor)

Yeah, I was waiting for that answer to on it.

daf still bitter over backlash from manu > dirk
obsessed
smelly be@ner

Being the first of your kind, doesn't mean you were the most influential. MJ wasn't the first of his kind, he just was far and away better than anyone the league had ever seen, doing what he did. That's why he was the most influential wing player ever.

If it's all about being the first player to ever sacrifice money for the team, well then that pretty much shoots your own argument down, because Timmy isn't the first athlete ever to take less money in order to help promote a winning cause.

Just because Dirk wasn't the first big guy to shoot longer range jumpers, doesn't mean he wasn't more influential. He was the first guy to be incredibly proficient at it, to the point that having 4s/5s on your team that can shoot from deep is pretty much a necessity, or you will have trouble matching up against half the teams in the league. That didn't truly start in the NBA until Dirk came around. You seriously think that 20 years from now, the league will be looking at Robert Horry as the reason why stretch 4's/5's became so popular? Please. Not only that, but Glenn Robinson and Horry were 6'7 and 6'9. Dirk is a full 7 footer. There have been plenty of guys who were 6'7 and 6'9 that could shoot from deep well before either of those guys. Lol Larry Bird?

One legged fades had nothing to do with what I was initially talking about, although even that shot has gotten far more popular thanks to Dirk, with guys such as Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, and plenty of others imitating it and adding it to their skillsets. It's to the point that it's not even really looked at as a particularly unusual shot.

[ambchang]

WTF?

I already said I was not being objective. Neither are you.
Hoops will never be all about numbers but I never said anything about the eye test in my post.
The data you provide supports your argument so you feel that means you are not biased?
I could use raw stats to make a case for Kobe to support my logic but I will not because again, it was never about that. And tbh at this point I dont even care that much ...

Again, feel free to argue this with those that care ...

Go on, put up the raw stats, when you put everything together there is no way you can argue peak Kobe > peak Duncan. In fact, you'd have a hard time arguing peak Kobe > peak Garnett or peak Dirk.

[DAF86]

daf still bitter over backlash from manu > dirk
obsessed
smelly be@ner

Being the first of your kind, doesn't mean you were the most influential. MJ wasn't the first of his kind, he just was far and away better than anyone the league had ever seen, doing what he did. That's why he was the most influential wing player ever.

If it's all about being the first player to ever sacrifice money for the team, well then that pretty much shoots your own argument down, because Timmy isn't the first athlete ever to take less money in order to help promote a winning cause.

Just because Dirk wasn't the first big guy to shoot longer range jumpers, doesn't mean he wasn't more influential. He was the first guy to be incredibly proficient at it, to the point that having 4s/5s on your team that can shoot from deep is pretty much a necessity, or you will have trouble matching up against half the teams in the league. That didn't truly start in the NBA until Dirk came around. You seriously think that 20 years from now, the league will be looking at Robert Horry as the reason why stretch 4's/5's became so popular? Please. Not only that, but Glenn Robinson and Horry were 6'7 and 6'9. Dirk is a full 7 footer. There have been plenty of guys who were 6'7 and 6'9 that could shoot from deep well before either of those guys. Lol Larry Bird?

One legged fades had nothing to do with what I was initially talking about, although even that shot has gotten far more popular thanks to Dirk, with guys such as Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, and plenty of others imitating it and adding it to their skillsets. It's to the point that it's not even really looked at as a particularly unusual shot.

Dirk being more influential than Tim Duncan

Today's game is played the way it is because of the rule changes, not because of Dirk.

Heck, Manu has been a of a lot more influential than Dirk: the eurostep, the flopping, the tendency to only either attack the basket or shoot threes while avoiding mid range jumpers.

[DAF86]

Dirk is more "unique" than "influential", tbh.

[Kawhitstorm]

Just because Dirk wasn't the first big guy to shoot longer range jumpers, doesn't mean he wasn't more influential. He was the first guy to be incredibly proficient at it, to the point that having 4s/5s on your team that can shoot from deep is pretty much a necessity, or you will have trouble matching up against half the teams in the league. That didn't truly start in the NBA until Dirk came around.

Dummy, Sam Perkins was the first stretch 4/5 but he played in an era where team shot less than double digit 3s.

Don Nelson is the one that changed the league w/ his gimmick lineups BEFORE Dirk even came into the league just like D'Antoni is credited w/ the 5 seconds or less offense rather than Nash.

You seriously think that 20 years from now, the league will be looking at Robert Horry as the reason why stretch 4's/5's became so popular? Please. Not only that, but Glenn Robinson and Horry were 6'7 and 6'9. Dirk is a full 7 footer. There have been plenty of guys who were 6'7 and 6'9 that could shoot from deep well before either of those guys. Lol Larry Bird?

Who the did Bird influence? Parsons/Hayward?

Horry/Cliff Robinson (NOT Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson) were the first full-time hybrid forwards whose job was to guard multiple position & stretch the floor on the other end all the way to the 3 point line. Draymond, Millsap, Marvin Williams, Aminu, Crowder, Deng...etc are basically the current crop of stretch 4s who fit that mold.

As far as stretch 5, even Porzingis is more like Ralph Sampson than Dirk.

One legged fades had nothing to do with what I was initially talking about, although even that shot has gotten far more popular thanks to Dirk, with guys such as Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, and plenty of others imitating it and adding it to their skillsets. It's to the point that it's not even really looked at as a particularly unusual shot.

You didn't even mention the closest thing to Dirk: Softridge but he doesn't even shoot 3s. (The rest of the guy you mentioned are nothing like Dirk beside them trying out the one legged fadeaway)

[Phillip]

Dummy, Sam Perkins was the first stretch 4/5 but he played in an era where team shot less than double digit 3s.

Don Nelson is the one that changed the league w/ his gimmick lineups BEFORE Dirk even came into the league just like D'Antoni is credited w/ the 5 seconds or less offense rather than Nash.



Who the did Bird influence? Parsons/Hayward?

Horry/Cliff Robinson (NOT Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson) were the first full-time hybrid forwards whose job was to guard multiple position & stretch the floor on the other end all the way to the 3 point line. Draymond, Millsap, Marvin Williams, Aminu, Crowder, Deng...etc are basically the current crop of stretch 4s who fit that mold.

As far as stretch 5, even Porzingis is more like Ralph Sampson than Dirk.



You didn't even mention the closest thing to Dirk: Softridge but he doesn't even shoot 3s. (The rest of the guy you mentioned are nothing like Dirk beside them trying out the one legged fadeaway)

Nice post, telling me that nearly no one is quite like Dirk. Except I never claimed a bunch of people are like Dirk.

My claim was that Dirk had a large influence in how the style of the game has changed. Prior to Dirk, there were very few players 6'10 and taller that could shoot proficiently from longer than 18 feet, and were generally looked down upon. After Dirk got popular (after being clearly recognized as far and away the best shooting big man the game had ever seen), using a shooter at the PF/C position quickly went from being a novelty, to a trend, and now it's practically a must-have.

[Kawhitstorm]

Nice post, telling me that nearly no one is quite like Dirk. Except I never claimed a bunch of people are like Dirk.

My claim was that Dirk had a large influence in how the style of the game has changed. Prior to Dirk, there were very few players 6'10 and taller that could shoot proficiently from longer than 18 feet, and were generally looked down upon.

The last one-way stretch 4 on a team that made it to the Finals was Rashard Lewis other than that everyone has been a TWO-WAY variety.

After Dirk got popular (after being clearly recognized as far and away the best shooting big man the game had ever seen), using a shooter at the PF/C position quickly went from being a novelty, to a trend, and now it's practically a must-have.

Cavs just beat the Duds w/ a PF/C who can even shoot FTs & the Spurs destroyed the Heatles w/ past prime Tim.

Kevin Love basically can't play starters minutes against any team w/ an elite PG which is actually what has NOW become a must-have for any contender. Draymond is a DEFENDER who developed a respectable outside shot, if he played defense like Dirk/Love he wouldn't be in the league.

[Phillip]

The last one-way stretch 4 on a team that made it to the Finals was Rashard Lewis other than that everyone has been a TWO-WAY variety.



Cavs just beat the Duds w/ a PF/C who can even shoot FTs & the Spurs destroyed the Heatles w/ past prime Tim.

Kevin Love basically can't play starters minutes against any team w/ an elite PG which is actually what has NOW become a must-have for any contender. Draymond is a DEFENDER who developed a respectable outside shot, if he played defense like Dirk/Love he wouldn't be in the league.

You are completely missing the point, and appear to be more focused on knocking Dirk, than actually making sense. Typical gnsf at least you guys are consistent rofl rofl rofl

[Kawhitstorm]

You are completely missing the point, and appear to be more focused on knocking Dirk, than actually making sense. Typical gnsf at least you guys are consistent rofl rofl rofl

You didn't have a point.

[Phillip]

You didn't have a point.

cool reply, tbh