Shooters, Shooters and more shooters

[TD 21]

Good post, but the lack of a high end break down player and knockdown three-point shooters are glaring, even with better roll men.

The starters can probably mostly overcome it with their size, ability to post up, rebound and defend, but with the possible exception of rebounding, the bench doesn't possess any of those things.

Anderson and Simmons are poor off ball players, who will mostly have to be just that playing next to Ginobili. In essence, they'll be small just for the sake of it, as they'll lack the main benefit typically associated with it.

[MaNu4Tres]

Good post, but the lack of a high end break down player and knockdown three-point shooters are glaring, even with better roll men.

The starters can probably mostly overcome it with their size, ability to post up, rebound and defend, but with the possible exception of rebounding, the bench doesn't possess any of those things.

Anderson and Simmons are poor off ball players, who will mostly have to be just that playing next to Ginobili. In essence, they'll be small just for the sake of it, as they'll lack the main benefit typically associated with it.

To be fair, Spurs never had a great break-down player on the perimeter during the run in 14' with the beautiful game -- Parker had been declining since he hurt his hammy in the 13' Finals. Sure an elite break down player would have been outstanding to add, but that wasn't able to happen. ( I was hoping for an upgrade on Mills with Teague but ATL received a better offer than what the Spurs could have offered or did offer -- we don't know)

However, the Spurs struggled to get off clean looks from 3 last year with Kawhi, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker all getting the bulk of the minutes on the perimeter (same guys as 14' -- some have regressed since then but I think not having an effective diver made it extra harder on them -- they simply weren't getting the same looks as those years prior and there was a lot of meaningless passing). While Anderson, Simmons are obviously not the best shooters or off-ball players, they also barely played when it counted last year ( so they're sort of irrelevant). This year they will have to improve their shooting or Bertans will be stealing their limited minutes. Anderson and Simmons may be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop utilizing a 3 big and 3, maybe 4 wing, 2 PG rotation when compe ion is tight.

Next year, SA will have a better opportunity to obtain a decent play-maker from the perimeter as the FA market and draft is loaded with PGs.

[TD 21]

To be fair, Spurs never had a great break-down player on the perimeter during the run in 14' with the beautiful game -- Parker had been declining since he hurt his hammy in the 13' Finals. Sure an elite break down player would have been outstanding to add, but that wasn't happening.

However, the Spurs struggled from 3 last year with Kawhi, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker all getting the bulk of the minutes on the perimeter (same guys as 14' -- some have regressed since then but I think last year made it extra harder on them by not getting to play with an effective roll man in PnRs -- they simply weren't getting the same looks as those years prior). While Anderson, Simmons are obviously not the best shooters, they also barely played when it counted last year ( so they're sort of irrelevant). This year they will have to improve their shooting or Bertans will be stealing their minutes.

Next year, SA will have a better opportunity to obtain a decent play-maker from the perimeter as the FA market and draft is loaded with PGs.

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles, is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

[MaNu4Tres]

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

Yeah I edited my last post and posted they struggled to get off the amount of clean looks as years prior. Didn't mean percentage wise. But that also further backs my explanation regarding how tough it was last year for the shooters to find open 3 point opportunities playing with PnPop long 2 bigs majority of the time compared to previous years playing with effective divers.

[Spurs9]

we are loaded at shooting with bonner

[ceperez]

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles, is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

That's just it about last season, Spurs did not take a lot 3's. You can't win in this NBA without launching a lot of 3's. Just is not happening.

Launching 3's has for the longest time the secret weapon of the Spurs to keep in games despite having average offensive talent.

[tonight...you]

That's just it about last season, Spurs did not take a lot 3's. You can't win in this NBA without launching a lot of 3's. Just is not happening.

Launching 3's has for the longest time the secret weapon of the Spurs to keep in games despite having average offensive talent.

The attempts definitely have to pick up next year.

[coachmac87]

Homeboy. That's cute.

I've posted about it in many threads.

From 2012-2015 Spurs had a big man rotation of Splitter, TD and Diaw. Splitter & TD were damn solid, effective rollers in PNRs for the Spurs' offense from 12'-15'. Having a roller/diver in PNRs for most of the 48 minutes ( Duncan or Splitter was always in the game), created so many opportunities for the weakside shooters because the perimeter defense on the weakside had to respect and rotate over towards the lane whenever Splitter or Duncan rolled after most picks they set. It's a big reason why the Greens, Mills, Leonards, Manus, Neals would go off even in half-court sets. Having effective rollers makes the defense move, and making the defense move is what gives passing a purpose -- it keeps the defense off balance and keeping the defense off-balance is what creates wide open looks for the shooters who usually put in their work spotting up on the weakside.

This past year, you witnessed a lot of meaningless passing to guys who were guarded because the weakside defense never had to move most of the time as teams were giving away the long 2 Pick and Pop to West and Aldridge. Especially with the bench and having West, Diaw in together. West hurt the weakside 3 point attempts because he never rolled and wasn't ever going to be an effective roller anyway -- so he pick and popped from long two and teams were happy with that all day long because the weakside defense got to rest and optimally take away the potential open weakside three point attempts. Diaw used to create open 3 point attempts with his abliity to spread the floor and pick N pop from 3, but last year he lost all confidence in his shot -- and he turned into just a dribble hand off option from the pick N pops he was involved in (which was a shot clock killer). As for the starters, Spurs no longer had the dives of Splitter, and Duncan was unable to dive effectively once his knee went out in December. With David West and Aldridge getting most of the minutes when it mattered, Spurs then had most of the 48 minutes of PnPop long 2 bigs ( instead of PnR divers). Having 48 minutes of mostly Pick N Pop long 2 offense gives the weakside defense an easy out, as they don't have to rotate over towards the painted area. The weakside perimeter defense gets to stay at home on their man -- which takes away the open weakside 3 point attempts that the Spurs usually had in the years before.

As the season went on, Pop started getting on Aldridge to incorporate dives more often -- which he did with some relative success. But it didn't help much because Pop relied a lot on West and Wests skillset and action from the PnR's never was going to create the best looks in basketball for his teammates ( layups/dunks, or wide open 3's). It's a reason why the bench or overall offense didn't look the same against stiff and smart compe ion. The stiff compe ion funneled most of the action to West/Aldridge long 2's and the defense took away the shots that have the most value (wide open 3's, dunks/layups).

This is where I think Dedmon is going to help the Spurs more than people realize is because he is a very effective diver and probably a better finisher than Splitter was. The weak-side shooters in the game with him should have many wide open opportunities.

While having shooters, shooters, shooters seems to be the answer to the average poster, it won't mean much against the best teams if Spurs don't have the personnel in the interior who create the opportunities with their actions without the ball. Dedmons' skill-set will help the shooters more than the average poster realizes.

Hopefully you learned something today for your next podcast.

And how is my OP about getting more shooters and continue expanding Parker, Simmons and Anderson 3ball wrong? Let's be real Spurs went from a high PNR team with Parker to a wing Iso with Aldridge and even Kawhi. Aldrige and Kawhi while very good at scoring against their man..setting up others and passing out of double teams aren't their strongest suits.

Aldridge really hurt the change of philosophy but something had to be done due to Parker inconsistent play and decline. But again I dunno why you assumed I dunno what I'm talking about due to my OP. Spurs need more shooters and Parker needs to become a better threat off the ball.

Good thing it took you 4hrs to make your point. Didn't prove anything tbh other than you're a

[coachmac87]

And if you read my OP you'd understand I said ATTEMPTS of 3's is the biggest issue. Spurs shot 350+ less 3's this year. And 250+ less from the year before when they won the ship.

[benfti]

Patty shooting it pretty well so far in the Olympic build up games, bodes well, he historically plays well in the years he comes off national team duty.

[MaNu4Tres]

And how is my OP about getting more shooters and continue expanding Parker, Simmons and Anderson 3ball wrong? Let's be real Spurs went from a high PNR team with Parker to a wing Iso with Aldridge and even Kawhi. Aldrige and Kawhi while very good at scoring against their man..setting up others and passing out of double teams aren't their strongest suits.

That's where you're wrong, again. Even though they ran ISO more than they had done in recent years, Spurs still ran more high PnR last year than ISO ball -- they ran high PnR consistency with Parker and Leonard handling the ball and they ended up reverting to ISO more often than usual because they weren't able to get off the open looks they were accustom to on the weakside because of the reasons I already mentioned.

But again I dunno why you assumed I dunno what I'm talking about due to my OP. Spurs need more shooters and Parker needs to become a better threat off the ball.

Because you don't know what you're talking about it. You're saying Spurs need more shooters from 3, when in reality that wasn't the problem last year. The problem was the offense couldn't manufacturer the same amount of wide open looks as previous years more so because of the reasons I explained. You never explained those reasons.

Good thing it took you 4hrs to make your point. Didn't prove anything tbh other than you're a

Was this your way of going in? This homeboy had a pretty busy day, it actually took me 20 minutes to write that up.

[coachmac87]

That's where you're wrong, again. Even though they ran ISO more than they had done in recent years, Spurs still ran more high PnR last year than ISO ball -- they ran high PnR consistency with Parker and Leonard handling the ball and they ended up reverting to ISO more often than usual because they weren't able to get off the open looks they were accustom to on the weakside because of the reasons I already mentioned.



Because you don't know what you're talking about it. You're saying Spurs need more shooters from 3, when in reality that wasn't the problem last year. The problem was the offense couldn't manufacturer the same amount of wide open looks as previous years more so because of the reasons I explained. You never explained those reasons.



Was this your way of going in? This homeboy had a pretty busy day, it actually took me 20 minutes to write that up.

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

[coachmac87]

It's obviously a combination of a lot of things. Spurs as a team needed to adjust especially Parker. Hopefully the chemistry improves and the younger guys continue expanding their games and maybe just maybe Bertans can be something meaningful this year.

[coachmac87]

Again how was my OP wrong?? Do the Spurs not need more shooters? Or will a "roller" solve everything?

[MaNu4Tres]

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

Belinelli receives more credit than he deserves. Sure he was productive in the minutes he was able to carve out during the many lopsided victories Spurs were able to have that magical season, but the truth is he was the least important player on the wing that entire run. The only times Beli received more than 12 minutes a night in the playoffs was when the Spurs had a 20 point lead. The main perimeter core that run was Leonard, Green and Manu at the wings and Parker and Patty at point guard ( same as last year). I agree Anderson and Simmons' off-ball play is below average because they aren't consistent shooters, but that wasn't the problem when it mattered because they barely even played. Spurs still relied on the same Leonard, Green, Manu, Parker, and Patty core as they did in 2014 -- but with Anderson getting limited spot minutes when compe ion was tight ( like Belinelli did). This next year, there's a chance Anderson and Simmons will be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop going to a 3 big ( Aldridge, Gasol, Dedmon), 3 -- maybe 4 wing ( Kawhi, Green, Manu, Bertans), 2 point guard ( Parker, Patty) rotation in the playoffs when compe ion is tight.

What it all boils down to is how the top 8-9 players in the rotation can manufacturer the most valuable shots in basketball. Dedmons' skill-set will give those top 5 wings in the rotation more open looks than last years' David West did. Sure depth is nice during the course of the long regular season, but the players 10-15 aren't going to be the ones who win games in May and June -- they will barely play.

[dabom]

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

You're not getting it man. I'd suggest to take the loss on this one.

[MaNu4Tres]

Again how was my OP wrong?? Do the Spurs not need more shooters? Or will a "roller" solve everything?

Spurs were 2nd in the league in 3 point % last year. They shot it well when they had the opportunities. The problem was they weren't able to manufacturer the same amount of 3 point shots as years before because they didn't have an effective diver creating those looks for the weakside and they also didn't have an effective PnPop 3 PF like Diaw ( he lost his confidence in his shot last year).

Having more shooters won't solve the problem of manufacturing better or more looks more often. Their shooters will again be Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker and maybe Bertans when it matters, maybe Anderson as well. But the heavy minutes and the shooters who matter the most are the ones in the top 8-9 in the rotation (Leonard, Green, Mills, Manu, Parker).

[coachmac87]

Belinelli receives more credit than he deserves. Sure he was productive in the minutes he was able to carve out during the many lopsided victories Spurs were able to have that magical season, but the truth is he was the least important player on the wing that entire run. The only times Beli received more than 12 minutes a night in the playoffs was when the Spurs had a 20 point lead. The main perimeter core that run was Leonard, Green and Manu at the wings and Parker and Patty at point guard ( same as last year). I agree Anderson and Simmons' off-ball play is below average because they aren't consistent shooters, but that wasn't the problem when it mattered because they barely even played. Spurs still relied on the same Leonard, Green, Manu, Parker, and Patty core as they did in 2014 -- but with Anderson getting limited spot minutes when compe ion was tight ( like Belinelli did). This next year, there's a chance Anderson and Simmons will be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop going to a 3 big ( Aldridge, Gasol, Dedmon), 3 -- maybe 4 wing ( Kawhi, Green, Manu, Bertans), 2 point guard ( Parker, Patty) rotation in the playoffs when compe ion is tight.

What it all boils down to is how the top 8-9 players in the rotation can manufacturer the most valuable shots in basketball. Dedmons' skill-set will give those top 5 wings in the rotation more open looks than last years' David West did. Sure depth is nice during the course of the long regular season, but the players 10-15 aren't going to be the ones who win games in May and June -- they will barely play.

Belli > Anderson last year and it's not even close when looking what they brought to the offense. It's all about maximizing space on the floor..Belli was obviously tremendous off the ball running off screens etc.

[coachmac87]

Spurs were 2nd in the league in 3 point % last year. They shot it well when they had the opportunities. The problem was they weren't able to manufacturer the same amount of 3 point shots as years before because they didn't have an effective diver creating those looks for the weakside and they also didn't have an effective PnPop 3 PF like Diaw ( he lost his confidence in his shot last year).

Having more shooters won't solve the problem of manufacturing better or more looks more often. Their shooters will again be Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker and maybe Bertans when it matters, maybe Anderson as well. But the heavy minutes and the shooters who matter the most are the ones in the top 8-9 in the rotation (Leonard, Green, Mills, Manu, Parker).

Never said it wasn't about percentages. Again read the OP. It's about attempts and having legit threats out there to honor.

[MaNu4Tres]

Belli > Anderson last year and it's not even close when looking what they brought to the offense. It's all about maximizing space on the floor..Belli was obviously tremendous off the ball running off screens etc.

That's not what I'm arguing. Belinelli was better than Anderson but Beli and Anderson were still the least important players in the entire playoff rotation for both 2014 and 2016 teams. Belinelli had the smallest role in close meaningful games, same for Anderson.

[MaNu4Tres]

Never said it wasn't about percentages. Again read the OP. It's about attempts and having legit threats out there to honor.

But you've been implying adding more shooters is the answer to getting more 3 point attempts. That's not the answer.

[coachmac87]

Again I'm not disagreeing with the "roller" concept. You're absolutely right. Having somebody to honor on the roll helps..but look at GSW for example...having threats who can shoot from 3 creates space and can actually help your roller.

[coachmac87]

But you've been implying adding more shooters is the answer to getting more 3 point attempts. That's not the answer.

It's part of it. Why did they ask for Simmons and Anderson to work on their shooting? Shooting helps with everything and it's arguably one of the most important aspects of today's NBA...hence small ball and stretch 4's becoming a bigger deal. Rolling bigs help too but the roller isn't much of s worry if you don't have shooters to honor. It goes hand in hand

[MaNu4Tres]

Again I'm not disagreeing with the "roller" concept. You're absolutely right. Having somebody to honor on the roll helps..but look at GSW for example...having threats who can shoot from 3 creates space and can actually help your roller.

Golden State had Bogut, Ezeli, and Draymond -- who were all elite rollers and it really helped their weakside 3 point attempts as their shooters would go off -- much like the 2012-2014 Spurs. I'm actually looking forward to seeing West getting a bulk of Bogut/ Ezeli minutes ( Teams will be able to defend the 3 point line better on the weak-side because they won't have to rotate or move as often as previous years. Weak-side perimeter D will be able to stay at home more than usual and the defense involved in the PnR are going to give West that long 2 every time). Bogut and confident Ezeli really helped Golden State's offense more than the casual fan believes.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's part of it. Why did they ask for Simmons and Anderson to work on their shooting? Shooting helps with everything and it's arguably one of the most important aspects of today's NBA...hence small ball and stretch 4's becoming a bigger deal. Rolling bigs help too but the roller isn't much of s worry if you don't have shooters to honor. It goes hand in hand

They want all their players to improve -- Anderson and Simmons have a chance to play more minutes this next year if they make a leap, but they'd still have to win minutes over the top 8-9 guys in the rotation to be relevant when it matters. Anderson and Simmons were irrelevant last year when it mattered ( they barely played when in close games or playoffs), and they likely will be irrelevant again when it matters this next year.

The roller/diver like Dedmon implemented into the offense and the relevant rotation ( top 8-10) is going to help manufacture great looks for the overall offense when it matters. The guys outside of the playoff rotation ( players 10-15), will not.