Shooters, Shooters and more shooters

[coachmac87]

Golden State had Bogut, Ezeli, and Draymond -- who were all elite rollers and it really their weakside 3 point attempts as their shooters would go off -- much like the 2012-2014 Spurs. I'm actually looking forward to seeing West getting a bulk of Bogut/ Ezeli minutes ( Teams will be able to defend the 3 point line better on the weak-side because they won't have to rotate or move as often as previous years. Weak-side perimeter D will be able to stay at home more than usual and the defense involved in the PnR are going to give West that long 2 every time). Bogut and confident Ezeli really helped Golden State's offense more than the casual fan believes.

GSW wants to play small. Look at their death line up for example Curry-Klay-KD-Iggy-Green( ING A) ALL can shoot from 3. You think they worried about a roller??? No.

Roller does help and you've made great points to back it up but without shooters you can cheat to help on the roller..

[MaNu4Tres]

GSW wants to play small. Look at their death line up for example Curry-Klay-KD-Iggy-Green( ING A) ALL can shoot from 3. You think they worried about a roller??? No.

Roller does help and you've made great points to back it up but without shooters you can cheat to help on the roller..

Anyone can see they like to play small, but they can't play small all game. West will have significant role for 18-20 minutes for the team instead of Bogut. Replacing West for Bogut during those stints will be a positive for the opposition.

I agree that having shooters around the roller is important, but Spurs will again have the same shooters/ wings as they've had for the past 3-4 years getting just about all of the minutes when it matters. Having Dedmon implemented instead of West should manufacturer more open looks from three for the Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker core -- much like Splitter did for them from 12-14 (15' he was limited w/ injuries). Adding more shooters won't solve that problem to getting more looks. It just adds depth to fill in the irrelevant gaps during the season.

[Blackjack]

'Tres on point, per par.

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a -ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

[coachmac87]

Anyone can see they like to play small, but they can't play small all game. West will have significant role for 18-20 minutes for the team instead of Bogut. Replacing West for Bogut during those stints will be a positive for the opposition.

I agree that having shooters around the roller is important, but Spurs will again have the same shooters/ wings as they've had for the past 3-4 years getting just about all of the minutes when it matters. Having Dedmon implemented instead of West should manufacturer more open looks from three for the Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker core -- much like Splitter did for them from 12-14 (15' he was limited w/ injuries). Adding more shooters won't solve that problem to getting more looks. It just adds depth to fill in the irrelevant gaps during the season.

I think Gasol being a legit offensive threat rolling or popping something Duncan couldn't do anymore will help a lot. Dedmond should help as a roller but he's more of a lob type. Dedmon can roll for lobs but he needs to prove he can catch, finish around the rim and not always above it and most importantly pass out of the roll..something Tiago did well

[MaNu4Tres]

'Tres on point, per par.

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a -ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

Hey sweetheart, hope all is well mucca!

Having a diver in PnR's with shooters around the diver makes the defense move. When the defense is having to move, rotate, and recover constantly the lanes to get to the basket get wider as the defense begins to break after each purposeful pass.

Last year, the opposing defense involved in the PnPop would funnel the pass to West, while perimeter weakside defense just stayed at home on the shooters. There was limited movement in the defense and each pass had less of a purpose because they were just passing to guarded players while the defense remained balanced. It became extremely tough to produce great looks or open looks in general because Spurs don't have and haven't had great one on one players on the perimeter to break down a defense like prime Manu or prime Parker.

Having an effective diver surrounded by good shooters creates the best shots in basketball ( layups, dunks or corner/ wide open 3's). As the ball is being moved with those components in place, the defense has to move and cover a lot of ground -- this is when the defense breaks and lanes get wider and wider to get to the hoop -- even for the Danny Greens. Dedmon should help more than people realize. IMO

Not to change the subject, but my fiance is in love with your daughter by the way, she saw a few pics on FB lol. I'm really excited for this next season as well. Should be fun turning the page, and seeing how the team gels.

[coachmac87]

'Tres on point, per par.

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a -ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

GSW has to play someone in the WCF...and if we get the 2 seed it should be us. I'd like to think most here think we're good enough to make it that far and if so we at least have a shot to make it to the Finals...that's real all you can ask for.

[Blackjack]

Hey sweetheart, hope all is well mucca!

Having a diver in PnR's with shooters around the diver makes the defense move. When the defense is having to move, rotate, and recover constantly the lanes to get to the basket get wider as the defense begins to break after each purposeful pass.

Last year, the opposing defense involved in the PnPop would funnel the pass to West, while perimeter weakside defense just stayed at home on the shooters. There was limited movement in the defense and each pass had less of a purpose because they were just passing to guarded players while the defense remained balanced. It became extremely tough to produce great looks or open looks in general because Spurs don't have and haven't had great one on one players on the perimeter to break down a defense like prime Manu or prime Parker.

Having an effective diver surrounded by good shooters creates the best shots in basketball ( layups, dunks or corner/ wide open 3's). As the ball is being moved with those components in place, the defense has to move and cover a lot of ground -- this is when the defense breaks and lanes get wider and wider to get to the hoop -- even for the Danny Greens.

'Jack still 'Jack, mucca.

All valid points, very solid posts. TD 21, as well. Ain't posting like I used to, but I'm still lurking.

Love seeing good back-and-forths. It's what made SpursTalk better than anywhere else. And even as much as some want to talk, I've been lurking or posting here since '01 or '02. Still the best place to go for Spurs-related talk/news - even if you have to sift a little more nowadays.

Props to all of you that still bring the goods.

[Blackjack]

GSW has to play someone in the WCF...and if we get the 2 seed it should be us. I'd like to think most here think we're good enough to make it that far and if so we at least have a shot to make it to the Finals...that's real all you can ask for.

Agree.

Really, on paper it would seem that the Spurs could very well get there with an acquisition of a rotation-player and some internal improvement. Tim's loss is really the biggest question mark - how will this team navigate the ups and downs of the season without their backbone of the last 19 years?

Plenty of teams had the talent to do what the Spurs have done consistently year-in-and-year-out, but have failed to do so because they lacked the stabilizing force of leadership that Tim always provided.

Plenty of Xs and Os to delve into. The leadership thing? It's not quantifiable. Definitely has me intrigued to see what's going to happen this upcoming year.

[MaNu4Tres]

'Jack still 'Jack, mucca.

All valid points, very solid posts. TD 21, as well. Ain't posting like I used to, but I'm still lurking.

Love seeing good back-and-forths. It's what made SpursTalk better than anywhere else. And even as much as some want to talk, I've been lurking or posting here since '01 or '02. Still the best place to go for Spurs-related talk/news - even if you have to sift a little more nowadays.

Props to all of you that still bring the goods.

yeah a few guys who cover the Spurs have ed about ST a few times on Twitter. Twitter is far worse than ST, there's more crap on there than I've seen on here. The egos for some of those journalist/bloggers who cover the Spurs is bigger than it should be lol... most are good people though, J-Mac, Jabari, Tom O, Paul Garcia, De Leon, Jeff Garcia to name a few.

[Blackjack]

yeah a few guys who cover the Spurs have ed about ST a few times on Twitter. Twitter is far worse than ST, there's more crap on there than I've seen on here. The egos for some of those journalist/bloggers who cover the Spurs is bigger than it should be lol... most are good people though, J-Mac, Jabari, Tom O, Paul Garcia, De Leon, Jeff Garcia to name a few.

Well, to be fair, some of those guys have some pretty ty takes. Which, in turn, has them getting shat upon here.

In all honesty, I think this place has made them better. They've actually had to learn about the business of the game and intricacies that used to go unnoticed. ST has some really sick s that I love the out of for their devotion to this team and the time they put in. You don't come strong, you're probably getting your feelings hurt.

I wrote with some of the guys you mentioned for a while. Very happy for them - a few more sick s I heart - and a little jealous I didn't stick with it to make a career out of it the way they did.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Homeboy. That's cute.

I've posted about it in many threads.

From 2012-2015 Spurs had a big man rotation of Splitter, TD and Diaw. Splitter & TD were damn solid, effective rollers in PNRs for the Spurs' offense from 12'-15'. Having a roller/diver in PNRs for most of the 48 minutes ( Duncan or Splitter was always in the game), created so many opportunities for the weakside shooters because the perimeter defense on the weakside had to respect and rotate over towards the lane whenever Splitter or Duncan rolled after most picks they set. It's a big reason why the Greens, Mills, Leonards, Manus, Neals would go off even in half-court sets. Having effective rollers makes the defense move, and making the defense move is what gives passing a purpose -- it keeps the defense off balance and keeping the defense off-balance is what creates wide open looks for the shooters who usually put in their work spotting up on the weakside.

This past year, you witnessed a lot of meaningless passing to guys who were guarded because the weakside defense never had to move most of the time as teams were giving away the long 2 Pick and Pop to West and Aldridge. Especially with the bench and having West, Diaw in together. West hurt the weakside 3 point attempts because he never rolled and wasn't ever going to be an effective roller anyway -- so he pick and popped from long two and teams were happy with that all day long because the weakside defense got to rest and optimally take away the potential open weakside three point attempts. Diaw used to create open 3 point attempts with his abliity to spread the floor and pick N pop from 3, but last year he lost all confidence in his shot -- and he turned into just a dribble hand off option from the pick N pops he was involved in (which was a shot clock killer). As for the starters, Spurs no longer had the dives of Splitter, and Duncan was unable to dive effectively once his knee went out in December. With David West and Aldridge getting most of the minutes when it mattered, Spurs then had most of the 48 minutes of PnPop long 2 bigs ( instead of PnR divers). Having 48 minutes of mostly Pick N Pop long 2 offense gives the weakside defense an easy out, as they don't have to rotate over towards the painted area. The weakside perimeter defense gets to stay at home on their man -- which takes away the open weakside 3 point attempts that the Spurs usually had in the years before.

As the season went on, Pop started getting on Aldridge to incorporate dives more often -- which he did with some relative success. But it didn't help much because Pop relied a lot on West and Wests skillset and action from the PnR's never was going to create the best looks in basketball for his teammates ( layups/dunks, or wide open 3's). It's a reason why the bench or overall offense didn't look the same against stiff and smart compe ion. The stiff compe ion funneled most of the action to West/Aldridge long 2's and the defense took away the shots that have the most value (wide open 3's, dunks/layups).

This is where I think Dedmon is going to help the Spurs more than people realize is because he is a very effective diver and probably a better finisher than Splitter was. The weak-side shooters in the game with him should have many wide open opportunities.

While having shooters, shooters, shooters seems to be the answer to the average poster, it won't mean much against the best teams if Spurs don't have the personnel in the interior who create the opportunities with their actions without the ball. Dedmons' skill-set will help the shooters more than the average poster realizes.

Hopefully you learned something today for your next podcast.

Not this horse again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

[MaNu4Tres]

Well, to be fair, some of those guys have some pretty ty takes. Which, in turn, has them getting shat upon here.

In all honesty, I think this place has made them better. They've actually had to learn about the business of the game and intricacies that used to go unnoticed. ST has some really sick s that I love the out of for their devotion to this team and the time they put in. You don't come strong, you're probably getting your feelings hurt.

I wrote with some of the guys you mentioned for a while. Very happy for them - a few more sick s I heart - and a little jealous I didn't stick with it to make a career out of it the way they did.

You speak the truth. The suck up, journalism snobs I don't care for -- guys like Tynan, Preine are Pop yes men and won't acknowledge any legitimate debate that conflicts with their take --if you're not a writer then there's no respect. Which won't lose me any sleep. I just found it funny how Tynan went on a Spurstalk rant the other day. I can name at least 20 guys on this site or guys who have posted since 06' that know a load more about the game than he does.

[dabom]

Not this horse again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

Wrong you stupid .

Go watch more basketball.

[dabom]

TBh I never listen to beat reporters. They aren't there to tell you the bad part of the story. They want you to keep watching. What better ways than to keep telling you what you wanna here. Trolls eat that up. Fathead being a good player.

[dabom]

Kawhi had a .300WS/48 in the playoffs. No one in the whole series came close. West or Durant. He also made WestGOD look mortal.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wrong you stupid .

Go watch more basketball.

For all the pnr that Kawhi ran his assists and passing still needs work. His usage increased dramatically yet his assist totals remained the same. He's come a long way since even the year before in that regard but he still has a lot of room to improve. Seeing that he has every year to this point already I see more of the same.

I love Leonard and watching him grow has been a joy to watch but he is far from perfect, fanboi.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Kawhi had a .300WS/48 in the playoffs. No one in the whole series came close. West or Durant. He also made WestGOD look mortal.

He was an extremely efficient scorer. This is not a surprise but the ball still stopped with him and he could have generated many more assists. 2005 Manu is the prototype for passing ability in this offense.

[dabom]

For all the pnr that Kawhi ran his assists and passing still needs work. His usage increased dramatically yet his assist totals remained the same. He's come a long way since even the year before in that regard but he still has a lot of room to improve. Seeing that he has every year to this point already I see more of the same.

I love Leonard and watching him grow has been a joy to watch but he is far from perfect, fanboi.

I never said he was perfect. But you clearly stated he was part of the problem.

Without him, this team is 7th/8th seed fodder. The problem lies elsewhere, got.

[dabom]

He was an extremely efficient scorer. This is not a surprise but the ball still stopped with him and he could have generated many more assists. 2005 Manu is the prototype for passing ability in this offense.

Manu also wasn't tasked to be the focal point of the defense either, got.

Apples to oranges. Bad comparisons here.

[dabom]

I could drop another diss track cause you taking for ever, got.

[dabom]

All I know is our offense only players didn't perform. Kawhi gets an A++. Your team needs to show up too.

[ElNono]

This is all good stuff, but there's really basic stuff that fired up my "Pop is officially done..." thread last season, and is seeing like Pop putting Manu to guard Westbrook...

I'm probably the #1 Manu fan in here, but stuff like that is not just ridiculous at this point in time, but sickening. You can't pretend a 38/39 year old in the twilight of his career to matchup to that athletic beast. Pop somehow did.

I don't know what kind of wine he was drinking during that series, but if he goes back to it, all this talk about shooters and Kawhi, LMA... Dedmon... it doesn't matter.

I'm actually hoping the realization that Tim isn't walking through that door anymore actually removes him from seemingly some sort of auto-pilot he's been on since 2014. It took a catastrophic loss in the Finals to get his attention, hopefully one positive thing that comes from Tim retiring, is Pop waking the up again.

[MaNu4Tres]

Not this horse again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

Your comprehension is terrible and most of these takes are wrong.

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest shots you want the offense to take.

1) Irrelevant with my take. The weakside perimeter D is never the guy(s) who would rotate to the PnPop PF like they would rotate to defend the paint for divers. The player who would rotate to Aldridge or West was usually the big involved in the PnR who hedged and recovered back on Aldridge/West and still contested but the good teams would hardly over contest leaving their feet. Ibaka did a few times that drew fouls but he cleaned that up as the series went on.
2) Never compared Splitter to Aldridge. Brought up the point that Aldridge started diving more towards the end of the year-- which helped. But my point remains that Spurs had 48 minutes of the Pick and Pop action having West incorporated in the overall offense along with Aldridge. West was the bigger problem because he played the 2nd most minutes out of any other big the Spurs had going into game 6.
3) I didn't ignore Duncans decline this past year, re-read the post you quoted. Duncan regained mobility the year after the Grizzlies series they lost in the 1st round and became a very effective diver -- go back and watch the games.

Here's examples of Duncan's rolling during the 14' run:

Here is one possession from PnR roll set w/ TD that still is remembered today and its all because of Duncan rolling attracting the D in the paint.



Here are many different possessions showing the Spurs' ball-movement but if you notice, after every screen Duncan sets he rolls, as did Diaw and the other bigs



In 14' Pop got on TD after a few plays Duncan wanted the ball after he didn't roll. It's clear as day that Pop is telling TD to roll.





Lol at Duncan not being a diver/roller. It's the reason why Spurs got so many open 3 point looks during those years. Having him or Splitter in at all times and even Diaw ( he rolled a lot too) really opened up the flood gates for the 3 point opportunities.

You never watched the games I'm convinced.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Manu also wasn't tasked to be the focal point of the defense either, got.

Apples to oranges. Bad comparisons here.

He's been the focal point for the bench unit for about a decade. And you tell me to watch more basketball?

[dabom]

He's been the focal point for the bench unit for about a decade. And you tell me to watch more basketball?

what does this have to do with what we're talking about?