Do you think we see the "Beautiful Game" more this season?

[raybies]

Sorry I don't want to torture people but posted these vids for analysis purposes.

Okay with that said, I hate to think that the best is behind us. Maybe Pop's masterpiece is resurrecting "the beautiful game". Pop has always been someone that has experimented. Last year we were left without a pick and roll big. I don't think it's a coincidence that we now have three bigs that can roll, which Obstructed View, I believe stated above, that was the key and I agree. We did what we had to do last year. Pop as usual played to the strengths of the team. He played post ups and slowed the pace down because thats what you do when you lack a roll man that can create space and easy opportunities. We also lost cutters like CoJo and Marco. Like stated by Parker, they did drills for the passing. Two dribbles and pass and they'd do it over and over again. Boris was a big piece in this because of his exceptional passing skills but I think Kyle can at least pass at his level if he can't post down low. I seriously doubt the plan is to put Lee and Dedmon together on the bench and would even assert that that is a worse case scenario in the mind of Patfo. I think they want Kyle to be a Draymond/Boris type and also think they will give him plenty of time to prove he can or can't do it. He's really as much of a key to the return of the "beautiful game" as having Pau, Dedmon, and Lee to rolling. Cause he can be the third big and play the high post or play as a spacer if he can hit the three. I expect to see Pau and Tony running plenty of pick and rolls to start the season and I think the drills come back. Pop has the pieces now. He has Manu, Simmons, and to a lesser extent Murray that can be cutters like Cojo and Marco. He has a big on every string that can roll effectively to the basket. He has shooters like Kawhi, Green, Mills, Bertans, and Forbes. And I think Forbes makes the team. He is an asset best believe that. Now I wouldn't call him 3 and D yet but he gives effort like a taller Mills but a better finisher.

Now as mentioned above about switching on defense, with an effective roller you have a mismatch of a small down low, which will draw a double, and with a capable passer like Gasol you then get the ball moving. If not Pau can dominate. I mean we still have quite a few players on our team that played the game. It's like we sacrificed our iden y when we signed Aldridge to save us from a rebuild. It's a bittersweet scenario. No more Beautiful Game but we don't have to rebuild. Last season was a transitional one much like this one but I think the goal is to bring back what we were.

As for chemistry, sure I agree, but that's apart of the Spurs culture to cultivate chemistry. They do the drills, they do the dinners, they suffer losses, and they keep at it. And they bring in guys with high character.

Maybe we never bring back the magic of the way we played but shoot, more ball movement, cutting, and setting picks would be an obvious improvement to a unexplosive offense. Danny and Patty having improved years is important too, but if not that's why you have Bertans and Forbes for insurance. More bullets in the barrel. Teams just let us pop last year cause mid range j's are one of the most ineffective shots in the game even if we are efficient at it. The pop took away the ball movement much like the post up. Kawhi and LMA's post ups took away the ball movement. And even when they did draw the double teams, they weren't great at passing out of them, especially LMA. Very few instances advantages were gained. This is why I think Pau will play a pivotal role next year and Aldridge and Leonard will play more as spacers. They should still have the same shots except now they will be getting them from ball movement as opposed to an iso. This really takes the energy out of an offense and makes it dependent. It's hard shooting cold and without touching the ball. As a ball player I feel more comfortable just touching the ball every time down even if it's not for a shot, just to have a feel. It's about rhythm. Iso ball doesn't have it. Things that make an offense explosive are ball movement, shooting, hustle plays, and dunks. This are also things that also take energy out of a team or break spirit. Look what we did to Miami in 14'. We annihilated them. We broke up the team. Lebron saw the Spurs and knew he couldn't beat them with his current team. Unfortunately injuries kept us from a repeat for the most part but the blueprint remains.

To retract a bit, I believe Leonard still has a chance to be good out of double teams and developed but as for Aldridge I think it's time to except that will never come. So post LMA until the doubles come and switch it up. As for Leonard, I think he will get more post ups than LMA because he is still developing and you have to see if he can become like Duncan out of the double.

Anyways with the roll men we will have a new dynamic on offense and I hope the drills come back cause we can still play at a slow pace and move the ball.

Edit: It all comes down to Aldridge if the Beautiful Game comes back. I just realized. We had two bigs that could pass at a high level on the floor at all times for the most part. I don't know if Aldridge could ever do that. Maybe with some practice perhaps. Maybe the thread, "Was Aldridge really worth it", has some merit in the grand scheme of things. Would you rather rebuild but keep the iden y of the team or retool and change the way we play to a less successful version. Sure there are many ways to win, depending on how dominant you are at what you do but we weren't dominant enough with what we did last year and I doubt that changes enough this year if we play the same.

[ElNono]

This is just a different team. Also, let's not forget that "the beautiful game" was more of a counter-matchup against Miami for a specific series than a general tactic overall. We didn't play anything like that against the Mavs, for example, that same playoffs, or even against the Thunder. Overall, that was a great bench, that played to it's strengths that year, and that's just difficult to build up. I'll settle for some ball movement, finding out what our strengths are, and hopefully find effectiveness within that, even if it's nowhere near as eye-pleasing.

[dabom]

Ball stopped a lot with LMA and Kawhi. I expect it to get better as I don't think either are selfish players but Gasol will take time in his own right. Boris being gone from the second unit will also hurt.

If this core can stay together then there is a chance next year but i don't see that level of continuity this season.

Are you a dumbass? They aren't ball stoppers. As seen by previous years. The team relied on them because our roleplayers were , got.

Some of ya gots need to understand context.

[cutewizard]

In the development of complex systems, there is a concept called EMERGENCE.....

Something may yet emerge this season, let us observe and wait.......

[John B]

Bully the bigs, lot's of back cuts, and spreading the lane with 3 pointers, a lot of 3 pointers this year (without Bonner). 2nd unit will be small running. OKC went away with playing bigs and played hero ball instead. Spurs should play their style of basketball and force other teams to play big, instead of other way around.

[alpha_HaZE]

I wonder if we see elements of the triangle, I think Pau, LMA and KL would be a good fit.

[z0sa]

If it means Kawhi plays tired old bag minutes again, no thanks. If Pop keeps babying him he will never be the player we need him to be three to five years from now.

[SAGirl]

If it means Kawhi plays tired old bag minutes again, no thanks. If Pop keeps babying him he will never be the player we need him to be three to five years from now.

Pop will spare him. He won't statpad in garbage time bc that is the time Pop has to develop his young teammates. He always plays a lot of minutes when games are compe ive.

[z0sa]

Pop will spare him. He won't statpad in garbage time bc that is the time Pop has to develop his young teammates. He always plays a lot of minutes when games are compe ive.

Pop will spare him from what exactly? He is 25 years old. He had an MVP type season last year, and yet he is still below his ceiling. More playing time means more fatigue sure, but it also means accelerated learning that comes with playing against basketball's best.

Maybe we should find out just how much of the load he can carry, and for how long, before making an arbitrary decision is all I am saying. Pop played Tim Duncan in the higher 30s when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.

[SAGirl]

Pop will spare him from what exactly? He is 25 years old. He had an MVP type season last year, and yet he is still below his ceiling. More playing time means more fatigue sure, but it also means accelerated learning that comes with playing against the basketball's best.

Maybe we should find out just how much of the load he can carry, and for how long, before making an arbitrary decision is all I am saying. Pop played Tim Duncan about that many MPG when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.

Pop will spare him bc it's not wise to play him or any rotation player exposing them to injuries when its garbage time... and he also has young teammates that need that playing time to learn. That is the only time some of those guys play early in their careers while they learn. It ain't about Kawhi but the team. He will play all relevant compe ive minutes. In fact statpadding in garbage time is actually not helping guys who are past that stage. It's like sending him back to the dleague or summer league at this point. . . bc guys of that level are basically the ones who play in garbage time.

[z0sa]

Oh, and let us not forget that Kawhi was being subbed out in the first ing quarter game after game vs OKC. Pop has a track record of playing it safe with his players, but he hasnt had a young up and coming MVP level guy on the roster for more than a decade. If he doesnt switch gears soon, it will end up lowering Kawhi's potential in the long run. I dont want any serious injuries but i also think kawhi owes it not just to himself but to the spurs organization and the fans to reach his maximum potential.

[z0sa]

Pop will spare him bc it's not wise to play him or any rotation player exposing them to injuries when its garbage time... and he also has young teammates that need that playing time to learn. That is the only time some of those guys play early in their careers while they learn. It ain't about Kawhi but the team. He will play all relevant compe ive minutes. In fact statpadding in garbage time is actually not helping guys who are past that stage. It's like sending him back to the dleague or summer league at this point. . . bc guys of that level are basically the ones who play in garbage time.

3 minutes left in the 1st quarter of a playoff game is not garbage time.

[YGWHI]

Pop played Tim Duncan in the higher 30s when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.

Pop's changed a lot since Tim's prime, he became more conservative over the years about playing time. Even when I'd love to see Pop playing Kawhi at least 36 mpg, that won't happen.

Sadly, it won't happen in playoffs either.

[skulls138]

Oh, and let us not forget that Kawhi was being subbed out in the first ing quarter game after game vs OKC. Pop has a track record of playing it safe with his players, but he hasnt had a young up and coming MVP level guy on the roster for more than a decade. If he doesnt switch gears soon, it will end up lowering Kawhi's potential in the long run. I dont want any serious injuries but i also think kawhi owes it not just to himself but to the spurs organization and the fans to reach his maximum potential.

Yeah Pop became too much of a chess player, not believing in his players as much. Its a fine line that he wasnt on.

And speaking about resting Kawhi, his game takes alot of energy to execute. Id like to see him make it look more effortless. More about exploiting weakness than overcoming great obstacles.

[Chinook]

I also think the "Beautiful Game" is mostly a made-up idea. In highlights, it looks like the Spurs were that dynamic. But the truth was that they only pulled that off in spurts. You can find video of most other good offenses that pull off similar things, especially if you only take their highlights.

[SAGirl]

I also think the "Beautiful Game" is mostly a made-up idea. In highlights, it looks like the Spurs were that dynamic. But the truth was that they only pulled that off in spurts. You can find video of most other good offenses that pull off similar things, especially if you only take their highlights.

I take the beautiful game as being the pinnacle of that particular version of the team, but as you and ElNono point out, other series even that same season were won differently and OT of Game 6 TD took over posting up.

I remember seeing an interview from Manu stating that they could put sequences like that together in the RS and if you look at highlights many teams can pass that well on occasion. He said, and I agree, that what made those games against the Heat special was that they were able to maintain that level of play execution for the entire games and that was truly unique. Manu himself said he didn't even know if they were ever going to be able to play at that level again. Famous words: The exact same version of the team the following season didn't reach that level ever, even when guys were healthy.

As ElNono noted in a way, a lot of it was also the result of very aggressive trapping to the ballhandlers by the Heat which left the roller open and forced rotations. When instead of trapping there are switches like I mentioned in my post, an exact replica of those videos won't come to fruition. That's why I mentioned the beautiful game as it was "termed" at that time did include exploitation of mismatches by Boris in the post and other actions. With so much switching, forwards have to post up nowadays, and the guards have to cut if they are overplayed or just drive or do something.

But it is true that it wasn't just defenses. The SL offense changed to feature the forwards, but part of the reason was just flat out decline from Tony and Tim. In reality the fit on offense always felt weird. I don't think they ever climaxed. They survived and won games on super strong defense but the offense was weird. Pop did what he could with that particular version of the starters IMO. The bench had other issues and they started with the loss of Tiago and Boris' reluctance or flat out denial to take a 3 pt shot. Kyle played so little when it mattered, and so many guys filled up minutes at the 3, while Pop scoured the roster and FA looking for someone to fit and it was always a weird fit with the SF in the bench, bc the problem didn't spring from the 3. Butler, Simmons, Kyle, Danny, Kawhi, Kevin Martin. These are all guys that played the 3 in the bench and they had the same problems as always. The problems started with the bigs, Manu's decline as a slasher/driver, and Patty becoming featured as a PG in the bench while taking so many jumpshots, thus being streaky.

Anyways, I think this version of the team next season should be better provided Tony and Manu stay healthy because the fit and roles that guys are playing are probably going to fit better, but as always chemistry is super important so guys also get a rhythm. It will still take time to develop the younger players into their roles and the veterans will need to fit in. The team will discover it's iden y as the season goes on.

Finally, I wanted to reply to raybies: I had avoided mentioning Kyle at all lest ppl think my entire comment was about him when it wasn't but I couldn't let it slide to agree with raybies that I agree with his view that the Lee signing is just insurance. For Pop to have to play two paint clogging bigs together, it would be the worst possible outcome for the team IMO. The team will be much, much better if Anderson comes through for us for the season manning the 4 forward spot with Simmons or someone else at the 3. His adding a 3 pt shot provides spacing for the PnR the team wants to run with Dedmon, and he can do so many other things well, including passing and scoring on his own when needed. It's also probably not ideal if Dedmon doesn't pan out and we have to play Lee as a small ball 5. So in general, I can't see a scenario where having Lee as a regular rotation player is a good thing. I think he will have his moments in the season, but the best version of the team would rather feature other guys. I will truly be disappointed if Pop is putting Kyle on hold on Lee's account. In general, I also think the Spurs had trouble securing someone for the 4 spot precisely bc they intend to give Kyle a shot and that wasn't easy to accept for many veterans but Lee bought in. That is my view on the situation.

Also, although I am not a big fan, I think Simmons will get his chance. It's a make or break season for him and he has to show whether he is going to cut it or not. Based on your summer league reports from that guy in realgm, it sounds like Spurs are excited with him. Lee is here just in case Simmons or Bertans can't pull it together and Pop has to move Kyle back to the backup SF spot.

In general though, I am excited because I think this team has more versatility than last season's team and a lot of young player still developing, and to see younger guys develop is always entertaining to me.

[dabom]

Simmons is too small for the 3. People need to stop saying that.

[z0sa]

Simmons is too small for the 3. People need to stop saying that.

If he worked on his 3 point shot he could be an undersized but still viable 3. As a pure slasher finisher type, youre absolutely correct.

[Chinook]

Simmons for the three. It's his best position.

[YGWHI]

Yeah Pop became too much of a chess player, not believing in his players as much. Its a fine line that he wasnt on.

And speaking about resting Kawhi, his game takes alot of energy to execute. Id like to see him make it look more effortless. More about exploiting weakness than overcoming great obstacles.

Well, the things didn't look great with Pop doing it...

And Game 2 was a close game...

If KD/LeBron/whoever keep playing 40 mpg and Kawhi just 34 like last playoffs, it doesn't matter what type of offense the Spurs will run, they won't match elite teams performances.

[dabom]

If he worked on his 3 point shot he could be an undersized but still viable 3. As a pure slasher finisher type, youre absolutely correct.

He wouldn't be viable though. He can't defend 2s as it is. Undersized and weak on defense is no bueno.

[dabom]

Simmons for the three. It's his best position.

I really don't know how you are a mod of the think tank when you say worse than SAGirl.

[dabom]

I'm not even sure how anyone can say simmons best position is the 3 when he rarely even played there.

[z0sa]

He wouldn't be viable though. He can't defend 2s as it is. Undersized and weak on defense is no bueno.

Just because he sucks on defense doesnt mean he cant play the 3. Lots of NBA players have made fortunes only playing one side of the ball. Simmons might be a bit short but he has ok handles (for what he is being asked to do) and he has no hesitation when he is near the rim. PATFO see something in him, and considering their legendary all time great track record when it comes to making talent appear from seemingly nowhere, gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

Pop and co are really great at identifying guys who have a great work ethic and just need a solid support foundation to gain confidence and grow. I never saw Cory Joseph being a guy I would care about or miss, for example, but not only did he get paid, we have been clearly missing his quickness and tenacity on defense in multiple matchups since he left.

[dabom]

Just because he sucks on defense doesnt mean he cant play the 3. Lots of NBA players have made fortunes only playing one side of the ball. Simmons might be a bit short but he has ok handles (for what he is being asked to do) and he has no hesitation when he is near the rim. PATFO see something in him, and considering their legendary all time great track record when it comes to making talent appear from seemingly nowhere, gotta give him the benefit of the doubt. Pop and co are really great at identifying guys who have a great work ethic and just need a solid support foundation to gain confidence and grow.

Except he isnt exceptional on offense either. I like him as a 2. He just not gonna get the minutes with Manu and Green there. He will never play the 3 for the Spurs. Pop doesn't even play him there. I'm guessing he is a really big liability there.