Hypothetical 2012 Trade Deadline: Is Draymond Green Worth Three Years of RJ?

[dabom]

GSH going in raw.

[Brazil]

I'll add that Raymond is overrrated

is that a new schtick ? everytime we discuss raymond you will post he is overrated ?

[Brazil]

on a side note it is a good offseason thread, you just need to read OP carefully instead of jumping on conclusions based on le... not sure why people got triggered over it... probably some agenda and personnal beefs involved

tbh, fwiw

[dabom]

is that a new schtick ? everytime we discuss raymond you will post he is overrated ?

His go to move is kicking NBA players in the balls...

[Brazil]

That's really what's unknowable Chinook: the chemistry issue. As others above this post said it's unknown how Raymond would have developed under Pop. He's a hot head now, but Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation. It's possible he might have turned out great and actually provided leadership and a compe ive fire the team kind of needs in their young crop. But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player. Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball and that was with the big 3 limping on one leg metaphorically. And he was heralded the franchise heir from a young stage.

I go back to Raymond bc Jefferson is superfluous. He and SJAX wouldn't have played a big part in the championship and Jefferson could have taken the Belli role and been fine. Belli was not significant in any defensive area whatsoever.

But can't address the Jefferson chemistry issue. I won't comment on that bc I don't know.

First big up to you for not mentionning your bf kyle tbh... even though we can feel some indirects like: "Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation" or "Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball"

now dat part is quite hilarious: "But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player."

like dude did not play his whole short career with ball dominant guys

[dabom]

on a side note it is a good offseason thread, you just need to read OP carefully instead of jumping on conclusions based on le... not sure why people got triggered over it... probably some agenda and personnal beefs involved

tbh, fwiw

Good thread but not worth a vote?

[Brazil]

His go to move is kicking NBA players in the balls...

that and playing defense and racking assists

[Brazil]

Good thread but not worth a vote?

bra I'm on off season mode I don't reply much at anything serious, does not mean it is a ty thread I would need to give a thought but I clearly don't want to

[Horse]

So it's the last month before the pre-season kicks off, so I thought it made sense to have a random thread to pass the time. I'm sure this has been asked multiple times within threads, but I just wanted to set up a poll here.

To summarize, here's what actually happened:

At the trade deadline in 2012, the Spurs traded Richard Jefferson and their first-rounder that season (30th overall) for Stephen Jackson. The Spurs made three consecutive runs deep into the post-season during the remainder of Jefferson's contract, though Jackson pretty much just lasted a year before he got cut. The Warriors used that pick on Festus Ezeli and kept Jefferson, who bricked two FTs to help the Spurs come back in Game One of the 2013 WCSFs. The eventually traded away four picks (including two unprotected first-rounders) to Utah in order to get rid of Jefferson's and Biedrins' contracts. Jefferson ended up becoming a decent role-player after the trade, eventually becoming a valuable member of the 2016 Cavs le team.

So knowing how everything turned out, here's the hypothetical:

The Spurs decide against making the trade, keeping Jefferson and their pick. They bench RJ for Kawhi just as they did with Jackson. They use their pick on Draymond Green instead. Jefferson opts into his deal and is not traded or amnestied through the 2013-2014 season. Anderson and LJC are both still drafted. They find a way to keep Splitter in 2013, but they don't sign Beli or Ayres. Everything from 2014 onwards remains the same.

Would you support that change?

On one hand, you keep a player who was almost a dark cloud hanging over the team. RJ being on the roster might've prevented the deep runs, and that last le was the sweetest. Draymond may not have been a great player after being relegated to the fifth big spot for years, and he's also a really not a Spur and may have forced his way off the team anyway. And it's not like Green and the Warriors have more les than the Spurs have over the intervening five seasons. SA is GS' biggest obstacle once again, and they have a future HoFer in Pau who could help them get another ring.

But on the other hand, it's Draymond ing Green. The Spurs would be rolling into this season with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best team in the league by a long shot. They would still be under the tax this upcoming season. As far as history goes, the Jefferson who showed up in Utah and Dallas and definitely Cleveland would've been a great addition to the bench. He and Manu had great chemistry, and he learned to be a serviceable three-and-D player. If Pop were able to get that RJ to show up from 2012-2014, the Spurs might've been even better.

I think I'd go with the former. There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them. Dude's a huge question mark despite his talent. There's no guarantee that he'd mesh with the team or be as good, and as we saw last season, being the best team on paper doesn't win LOBs. I'll take a trophy and a 7/10 future over just a 9/10 future any day.

donkey-face Gaymond

[dabom]

that and playing defense and racking assists

D Blair IQ...

[Chinook]

Except that they only had to pay Jackson for one year, and RJ still had two albatross years left on his contract. If you want to look at signing a single player in a vacuum, have at it. But you're smarter than that. You're a ing argument addict. Even when people agree with you, you have to find a way to correct them. There's a point where being knowledgeable turns into being an asshole.

Look, if you don't want to discuss things, no one's forcing you to post. You thought that RJ made it difficult to re-up Green, but mathematically, that isn't true. They had the wiggle room for those years. You and I agree that we wouldn't reverse the deal if we could. But as I have repeatedly said, I feel like the discussion is more nuanced than just a yes or a no. That's not being nitpicky or corrective of your argument.

RJ played all 82 games in Utah, logged over 2,200 minutes, and shot .409 from 3P. He was probably less of a waste of roster space there than most places, because they obviously needed him on the floor... a lot.

And that's fine. But he was a waste of a spot because Utah was a bottom-feeder who only took on his deal because they were getting paid (with picks) to do so.

He had the second worst DRTG on the Cavs, next to Dellavadova. He made .5 3-pointers per game in the playoffs, compared to .9 for the season. (Actually 11 3-pointers in 21 playoff games.) He played well in the post-season, especially against the W's small lineups. But he didn't "turn into" anything. And I'm pretty sure Pop didn't envision him being a role-player, since he had RJ starting damn near every game he played in SA

Green's a role-player, and he's started almost every game for five years. RJ was probably projected to be in a similar role, though with more offense and less defense. You're absolutely right that he was never good enough to justify the contract and that Pop would've wanted more from him than the man Old RJ was/is. But the role was the same.

Well if that's what you wanted the thread to be about, why didn't you ing say so? And there is no "near 100 percent" when it comes to winning a Championship. Chemistry and match-ups are always big factors. Just ask Golden State.

I said it on multiple occasions, including the thread le. Other posters might assuming that that trade cleared the way to the le, but I think it's up for debate. And nothing is 100 percent, but plenty of things are easier to see in retrospect. The Spurs of that era were the best team in the West for three years. They won 41/58 games in those playoffs. That's a better record than GS' 31/45 the last two seasons or the Heatles' 59/88 record. They had it on paper. Add in the intangibles from Pop and the Big Three, and they were going to get one.

The fact is, RJ's performance while he was here was , which is why the Spurs had to give up a first round pick to get rid of him. And don't forget that he was a waste of a roster spot in Utah, just a couple of years before. So he evolved into the player Pop envisioned, suddenly, in his 15th season? Tell me another story, Grampa.

RJ wasn't a horrible Spur. He just wasn't right. I don't know if that was just fan perception or if it was something real that affected the team (hence why it's an interesting discussion point). But to act like he didn't develop is silly. He was so bad at shooting in his first season in SA that he had to take long-twos instead of threes. More than just tangibles, He needed to chance his at ude. That took time, the same way it did with Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and David West. Though RJ isn't in those guys' league.

And dude, I'm 26. What's with the grampa comment?

[Chinook]

donkey-face Gaymond

Straight from Horse's mouth.

[SAGirl]

First big up to you for not mentionning your bf kyle tbh... even though we can feel some indirects like: "Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation" or "Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball"

now dat part is quite hilarious: "But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player."

like dude did not play his whole short career with ball dominant guys

If it bothers you so much that I like Kyle you will be bothered a lot of the time. I am not going to change and don't give a shyt about trolling. You taught me to ignore trolling at this point it's funny to me when guys get all angry bc I like Kyle

Here: Kyle Kyle Kyle Kyle.... you get it right? Kyle.

[SAGirl]

Well, there are two things here:

First, Jefferson made about $100k less than Jack did in 2012-2013, so the trade actually added salary to their bill. They still could've afforded to sign Green. The following season, sure, Jefferson's $11 Million was larger than the $4.5 Million Beli and Ayres cost, but the team was $7 Million under the tax line (see Bruno's Thread for more details), so there was enough room then too. Obviously, after that it wasn't a factor, as RJ's deal was done. While we can talk about whether Green or Leonard would've been hurt on the court by Jefferson, it doesn't look like they couldn't both be re-signed.

And that ignores the possibility of RJ opting out after being a rotation player on a contender rather than a waste of a roster spot in Utah.

Second is that as I have mentioned before, the Jefferson factor is getting overlooked. He eventually turned into the three-and-D role-player Pop envisioned, though he was never as good as Green. Having three good defenders and another shooter would've helped a lot in the 2013 Finals, where Pop had to tighten his rotation to like seven players. In 2014, who knows how they do without the loss to fuel them, but on paper, they'd've been the favorites once again.

People look at this thread as, "Would you trade a le for Draymond?" when it's really more complicated than that. I think the chances of the Spurs winning at least one ring from 2012-2014 without that trade are still near 100 percent.

I think so too. They still win one le and might have won two bc SJAX turned out cancerous himself. And the draft as far as the Spurs after Kawhi has always been about the future. The team was all in super win now mode to take advantage of the big 3s (and Timmy's twilight) with Kawhi in a role that required defense first and supplementary scoring as needed. Kawhi and Danny provided the defensive toughness that opened the championship door and it was going to be a short window bc Tim and Manu were near the end of their careers anyways.

Raymond would have been for the future. It's actually a great possibility he would have been a more perfect pupil for Diaw than Kyle. Heck Diaw might have found himself traded out sooner once his coastorama trends got back to 2015 by which time Dray would have been coming into his own (while Kyle in comparison was in the dleague in 2015 as a 21 yr old rookie). Dray could have made a difference in 2015 and thereafter when Diaw started to be an inconsistent guy, Tiago got injured most of the season and Bonner was starting games for the Spurs. I actually can see Bonner losing his Spurs minutes sooner than he did (and Bonner haters should thank Kyle for taking those from him and Bertans joining the team was the final coup ). With Raymond in the team no way Bonner plays almost 900 minutes in 2015 (while shooting 36.5% from 3, the only valuable part of his game at that point) and is signed thereafter.

[Brazil]

If it bothers you so much that I like Kyle you will be bothered a lot of the time. I am not going to change and don't give a shyt about trolling. You taught me to ignore trolling at this point it's funny to me when guys get all angry bc I like Kyle

Here: Kyle Kyle Kyle Kyle.... you get it right? Kyle.

I'm not bothered darling... I'm merely giving you a little star to be able to talk about Spurs without mentionning him because it's kinda refreshing and it must be hard for you to be able to do so. I alway try to reward the effort when I see one.

Now your take on Draymond is quite mind blowing...

Still

[Brazil]

I think so too. They still win one le and might have won two bc SJAX turned out cancerous himself. And the draft as far as the Spurs after Kawhi has always been about the future. The team was all in super win now mode to take advantage of the big 3s (and Timmy's twilight) with Kawhi in a role that required defense first and supplementary scoring as needed. Kawhi and Danny provided the defensive toughness that opened the championship door and it was going to be a short window bc Tim and Manu were near the end of their careers anyways.

Raymond would have been for the future. It's actually a great possibility he would have been a more perfect pupil for Diaw than Kyle. Heck Diaw might have found himself traded out sooner once his coastorama trends got back to 2015 by which time Dray would have been coming into his own (while Kyle in comparison was in the dleague in 2015 as a 21 yr old). Dray could have made a difference in 2015 and thereafter when Diaw started to be an inconsistent guy, Tiago got injured most of the season and Bonner was starting games for the Spurs. I actually can see Bonner losing his Spurs minutes sooner than he did (and Bonner haters should thank Kyle for taking those from him and Bertans joining the team was the final coup ). With Raymond in the team no way Bonner plays almost 900 minutes in 2015 and is signed thereafter.

back again with Kylie ? shhhh girl

oh and at the notion of Kyle being a kinda pupil for Diaw

[SAGirl]

I'm not bothered darling... I'm merely giving you a little star to be able to talk about Spurs without mentionning him because it's kinda refreshing and it must be hard for you to be able to do so. I alway try to reward the effort when I see one.

Now your take on Draymond is quite mind blowing...

Still

No further interest in the conversation. Back to the usual program.

[Brazil]

No further interest in the conversation. Back to the usual program.

your capitulation is duly noted

let us proceed



and because I like giving credit when credit is due... copyright @ Thread

[dabom]

back again with Kylie ? shhhh girl

oh and at the notion of Kyle being a kinda pupil for Diaw

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is ing super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from?

[Brazil]

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is ing super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from?

It is coming from our cheerleading team leader tbh

[K...]

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is ing super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from?

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full re per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!

[SAGirl]

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full re per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!

Lol It was troll Brazil's doing. Seriously dude latches on to Kyle more than me. At this point I think daboom and Brazil basically will bring him up every time they can with the intention of trolling.


Sorry Chinook.

[Brazil]

wtf blaming me for bringing Kyle in this discussion

SAGirl introduces dat Kyle slurping everytime she posts tbh

[dabom]

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full re per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!

Can you tell me a skill that he has with some proof?

[K...]

Can you tell me a skill that he has with some proof?

Dude you don't get to the nba with no skill. He didn't turn over the ball, he was an effective defender who used his length, he actually shot the ball with a rate greater than 0%. C'mon man, chill out with nonsense.