Kawhi's offensive game is "antiquated."

[SpursforSix]

WTF are we forgetting that he shot 44% last year? Or that he was pretty much at 40% this year prior to his struggles these past two months? God damn talk about recency bias. He's already a better three-point shooter than other midrange guys like MJ/Kirby ever were. He's a better shooter than Bron too.

Yeah...you're right. I'm not sure why I don't think it's sustainable. At least not as a high volume shooter. But maybe I'm dead wrong. I hope so.

But either way...if he's a 40% 3 point shooter or 30%, it's ridiculous to think his game is antiquated. Which I know wasn't your contention.

[gambit1990]

It always comes back to Parker with you.

i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

Parker has killed Wardell and Co. over the years, and now that they've lost their paint anchor (Bogut), the paint is prime real estate for Parker (and any penetrator) to claim.

0 points
pulled in like erin berry

[SpursforSix]

i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

0 points
pulled in like erin berry

And how many turnovers? Hmmm. Phoenix working on one part of his game at a time. Smart.

[midnightpulp]

i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

0 points
pulled in like erin berry

No other option. Of course I'm going to hope for the best.

I wanted Murray developed as an insurance policy (#freemurray), but that didn't happen. And he's injured.

House still isn't a solution. Can't even gamble on him starting because it kills the bench and the rotation. You want House coming in at certain times.

This is all you don't consider in your crusade.

[FkLA]

I'm not discrediting anything.

Again, simple math. 50% from midrange=33% from downtown. Curry takes over half his shots from three (54%). Harden takes 48% of his shots from three. Curry shoots 40% from three. Harden shoots 36%. Thus, Curry averages 12 points for 10 three point shots, Harden averages about 11 points for 10 shots, while Kawhi averages 10 points for 10 midrange shots. A midrange centric player can't win the "efficiency war" against 3 point centric players. Just not going to happen.

"Well, Kawhi is a deadeye from downtown."

Aside from the past couple of months, he is. But he doesn't shoot them at a high enough volume. If he took 3 of those 9 midrange attempts per game and used them on threes, I'd be a lot more comfortable. But I don't think that's happening because Kawhi isn't really an off-the-dribble gunner like Harden, Curry, etc.

This is also why basketball is currently broken. It's re ed to value one shot 50% more that is nowhere near 50% harder to make (proven by the relative shooting percentages). I want Kawhi's style to win out. But it won't.

Ok, so their main weapon (3PT shot) is worth more than Kawhi's (midrange).

What does this ultimately prove though? His style won't win out in what way? As in he won't score as much as those two? SA won't beat GS or HOU? Pretty confident that SA would handle HOU in a series. He's averaging more PPG than Curry on less FGAs. Even if we convert FTAs to FGAs and add them to their current FGA totals he's neck and neck with them as far as points per FGA goes.

[FkLA]

To simplify things, I'm going to assume all FTAs are 2 shot fouls. So every 2 FTAs convert into 1 FGA. Doing that we get:

Kawhi - 21.65 FGAs, 25.9 PPG
Harden - 24.35 FGAs, 29.3 PPG
Curry - 20.5 FGAs, 25.0 PPG

So points per FGA comes out to:

Kawhi - 1.20
Harden - 1.20
Curry - 1.22

[midnightpulp]

Ok, so their main weapon (3PT shot) is worth more than Kawhi's (midrange).

What does this ultimately prove though? His style won't win out in what way? As in he won't score as much as those two? SA won't beat GS or HOU? Pretty confident that SA would handle HOU in a series. He's averaging more PPG than Curry on less FGAs. Even if we convert FTAs to FGAs and add them to their current FGA totals he's neck and neck with them as far as points per FGA goes.

Remember when the SSOL Suns were the media darlings and everyone thought they were a le waiting to happen? Savvy fans knew their jumpshot/3 point happy style wouldn't "win out" in the post-season, since, at that time, size/rebounding/post-play is what "worked" in the post-season. The script has flipped.

Kawhi keeping pace with Curry in PPS is, quite frankly, incredible. But for Kawhi to sustain that level of production, he needs to continue to shoot ~50% from the midrange, which is a mammoth task (not many players have done that), especially in post-season play when teams are gameplanning for you. All a 3 point shooter needs to do to equalize that is shoot 33%, which would be "struggling" for Curry, Harden, etc.

In addition, mid range just doesn't stress defenses like 3 point heavy/penetration heavy attacks.

[midnightpulp]

To simplify things, I'm going to assume all FTAs are 2 shot fouls. So every 2 FTAs convert into 1 FGA. Doing that we get:

Kawhi - 21.65 FGAs, 25.9 PPG
Harden - 24.35 FGAs, 29.3 PPG
Curry - 20.5 FGAs, 25.0 PPG

So points per FGA comes out to:

Kawhi - 1.20
Harden - 1.20
Curry - 1.22

Just use PPS.

PPG/FGA

PPS is pretty much the gold standard now.

Harden: 1.55pps
Kawhi: 1.44pps
Curry: 1.37pps

My concern is that Curry and Harden's PPSes will be more sustainable in the post-season. No, we won't lose to Houston because their second best player is Trevor Ariza, but I expect Harden to be more productive than Kawhi in that series. Harden is a huge choker, though, so you never know.

[FkLA]

In that case, PPS last postseason:

Kawhi - 1.36
Harden - 1.33
Curry - 1.33

[midnightpulp]

In that case, PPS last postseason:

Kawhi - 1.36
Harden - 1.33
Curry - 1.33

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.

[midnightpulp]

Steph against OKC: 1.39PPS

[skulls138]

Kawhi, Kawhi, Kawhi. Kawhi does enough for this team, time for someone to come to his, ours, their own rescue. We need a consistent second option before we ask Kawhi to do one more damn thing. Kawhi needs to get his 3 back for sure but everybody has slumps now and again. As for his mid-range, its a good shot for when the shot clock is winding down because he can usually get it off cleanly without passing or being passed to. He should do so only then. Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.

[FkLA]

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.

Steph against OKC: 1.39PPS

Steph was at 1.27PPS against Cleveland though. His performance against OKC deserves credit, but I think in general most of their PPS will go down as the quality of the compe ion goes up. There's other things to consider too like being guarded by Robertson/KD or Westbrook/Payne.

[midnightpulp]

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.

Oh, and 1.25PPS is really in' good, especially in the playoffs. This just shows how much easier it is to produce when you shoot more 3s. Steph actually shot a lower overall percentage against OKC than Kawhi did.

[YGWHI]

And Kawhi does have consistent helpers. LMA is a 20ppg per 36 scorer. And Gasol and Lee have been great off the bench.

Sometimes I wonder if you're high or what.

1-I wouldn't call this LMA's season consistent...I'm so glad he's healthy but this wasn't his best season.

2-You're the one here whining about "mid-range, post-up is old, antiquated...Guess what, all the help Kawhi has is... OTHER TWO MID-RANGE LMA/ POST-UP PAU players.

A midrange centric player can't win the "efficiency war" against 3 point centric players. Just not going to happen.

Someone having a better mid-j than Kobe, being a prolific and efficient scorer, all that with the best defensive abilities since Moncrief or Pippen? Yes, he can.

He just need to be surrounded by amazing shooters like KD is now with Curry and Klay, or with a strong dribble-penetration guard like LeBron was with Wade and Irving.

But you know what, the Spurs didnt sign an elite guard to take pressure off and avoid the many double-teams Kawhi faces, or a 3-point specialist.
They opted to re-sign a 40 years old guard, to sign another post-up player, to keep the player who has been net negative in last playoffs as starting PG...Without mentioning the guard who can't drive for , and Simms/Kyle not being exactly like Eric Gordon from 3.

Tell me that other teams would doubled Kawhi aggressively with an offensive threat like Irving, Lillard, IT, or even CJ? Tell me who complete Kawhi's game better? Parker or Irving? CJ or Danny?

Now, tell me how many rings won LeBron without Wade-Bosh/Irving-Love...Remember, when he didn't have Kyrie/Love, he couldnt beat GSW alone. Even the best player in the world needed his teammate star to make that crazy shot to win the ship.

And you say Kawhi has plenty of help?
When LMA took over a game in POs when Kawhi was off, and the Spurs won that game?
I'd love to see LMA doing it because that would give Kawhi a breath, knowing he doesn't need to be MJ out there every night to get a win. But it NEVER happened.

So stop smoking that , mid. Better talk about Kawhi's supporting cast and the way that Pop/RC wanted to build this team

[FkLA]

Steph against '15 MEM: 1.21PPS
Kawhi against '16 MEM: 1.56PPS

It evens out, tbh.

[midnightpulp]

Steph against '15 MEM: 1.21PPS
Kawhi against '16 MEM: 1.56PPS

It evens out, tbh.

Memphis was a healthy 55 win team in '15. They were an injured 42 win wreck in '16. Vince Carter was their best perimeter scorer

[FkLA]

Memphis was a healthy 55 win team in '15. They were an injured 42 win wreck in '16. Vince Carter was their best perimeter scorer

Damn, I just checked and we got them without Gasol and Conley. I had completely forgotten.

I'd say 1.21PPS against a healthy MEM is doable for Kawhi though.

[YGWHI]

Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.

EXACTLY.

OP thinks that people who likes Kawhi's game like me, want Kawhi to go ISO every possession. That's wrong and stupid. I've said before how better Kawhi will look with a playmaker like CP3 in the SL.

He will get a ton of easy ones. He could average 25 ppg in just hoops and cuts to the rim. Obviously he would still get his amazig mid-j but he wouldn't need to work so hard for his points.

Parker isn't that type of playmaker, he only can set LMA and keep him involved. Kawhi? Neither of Parker, Danny, Patty, Manu make his life easier

[midnightpulp]

Sometimes I wonder if you're high or what.

1-I wouldn't call this LMA's season consistent...I'm so glad he's healthy but this wasn't his best season.

2-You're the one here whining about "mid-range, post-up is old, antiquated...Guess what, all the help Kawhi has is...OTHER TWO MID-RANGE LMA/ POST-UP PAU players.

Bigs are typically midrange/post centric players. You can't expect dribble drive penetration nor off-the-dribble 3 point shooting from them. Kawhi is a perimeter player, and if he further developed a penetration/off-the-dribble 3 point shot, I think this team would be a much bigger threat currently as is. Yes, the backcourt is the PRIMARY problem, but that doesn't mean Kawhi should not further develop his game in line with what works for perimeter players in the NBA. Simply hoping for a decent PG to come along won't solve everything.

Now if Kawhi is unable to develop that penetration/3 point game, then he needs to be clear with the FO, and say, "I need an Isaiah Thomas kind of player to run with." A Jeff Teague level player won't cut it if Kawhi doesn't sacrifice some of his midrange game for more penetration and threes.

Someone having a better mid-j than Kobe, being a prolific and efficient scorer, all that with the best defensive abilities since Moncrief or Pippen? Yes, he can.

Midrange jumpers aren't sustainable. You'll find this out the hard way in the playoffs, and probably shift the blame, like you always do. Guess what he shot from the midrange in the playoffs last season? I'll let you look it up.

But you know what, the Spurs didnt sign an elite guard to take pressure off and avoid the many double-teams Kawhi faces, or a 3-point specialist.
They opted to re-sign a 40 years old guard, to sign another post-up player, to keep the player who has been net negative in last playoffs as starting PG...Without mentioning the guard who can't drive for , and Simms/Kyle not being exactly like Eric Gordon from 3.

Shifting the blame. You want to talk about the supporting cast issues, make a thread. This is about what Kawhi needs to work on. To put it bluntly, he chose the wrong role-models (Kobe, Jordan) to build his game on. It's not his fault. When he came into the league, that style was still viable. Average 3 point attempts were at 18.4 per game. It's at 27 now. He now needs to adapt or ask the FO for help.

Tell me that other teams would doubled Kawhi aggressively with an offensive threat like Irving, Lillard, IT, or even CJ? Tell me who complete Kawhi's game better? Parker or Irving? CJ or Danny?

Danny hit a lot of 3s last night. Still didn't matter.

Now, tell me how many rings won LeBron without Wade-Bosh/Irving-Love...Remember, when he didn't have Kyrie/Love, he couldnt beat GSW alone. Even the best player in the world needed his teammate star to make that crazy shot to win the ship.

Again, has nothing to do with this thread. You want to talk about the supporting cast problems, make a thread.

And you say Kawhi has plenty of help?

To win the le, obviously not. But the lack of help shouldn't prevent him from adapting.

So stop smoking that , mid. Better talk about Kawhi's supporting cast and the way that Pop/RC wanted to build this team

Shifting the blame. Again, the supporting cast has nothing to do with the issues Kawhi needs to address.

[gambit1990]

Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.

seriously.

[cd98]

Spurs can score enough in the midrange if they could defend GSW. But they can't defend and if they have to outscore GSW in a shootout to win, they're screwed.

[FkLA]

Bruh, you're acting like Kawhi could be Harden if he would've strove to be that instead of going the MJ/Kobe route. He doesn't have the fluidity or body type for that . Just like Harden could never be Kawhi even if he wanted to. His midrange is a good foundation. He's complimented that by making himself a 40% 3PT shooter, and continues to make huge strides off the dribble and running the pick and roll. The improvements he's made and continues to make in those areas should not be undersold. Call me a homer if you want, but this is far from Kawhi's final form. His playmaking is still in its infancy. He'll end up being LeBron lite lite, imho. His playmaking will be more methodical like LeBron, rather than Harden's who's almost all penetration and kick-outs.

[midnightpulp]

Bruh, you're acting like Kawhi could be Harden if he would've strove to be that instead of going the MJ/Kobe route. He doesn't have the fluidity or body type for that . Just like Harden could never be Kawhi even if he wanted to. His midrange is a good foundation. He's complimented that by making himself a 40% 3PT shooter, and continues to make huge strides off the dribble and running the pick and roll. The improvements he's made and continues to make in those areas should not be undersold. Call me a homer if you want, but this is far from Kawhi's final form. His playmaking is still in its infancy. He'll end up being LeBron lite lite, imho. His playmaking will be more methodical like LeBron, rather than Harden's who's almost all penetration and kick-outs.

This touches on why it's hard to build around small forwards. They typically have bigger, more muscular frames that don't vibe with dribble-drive penetration. Maybe he has a hidden gear, but if he doesn't, the Spurs need to find the right players, or it's just going to middle round exit after middle round exit.

[gambit1990]

OP:
kawhi, antiquated
parker, pulling me back in