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Also expecting him to be an all-world scorer, all-world playmaker, and all-world defender is more than you're asking out of any of the other guys you're bringing up.
I think Kawhichael might just be up to the task though.
Always comes back to Parker with you
I don't think you ever had an opinion that didn't somehow reference Parker.
Also expecting him to be an all-world scorer, all-world playmaker, and all-world defender is more than you're asking out of any of the other guys you're bringing up.
I think Kawhichael might just be up to the task though.
I'm actually not asking any of that.
Harden plays a much more simplistic game than Kawhi. Chuck 3s, use space from opponents guarding your chucking to penetrate. Kawhi plays the hardest style there is. Midrange/Midpost.
This also why 5'9" Isaiah Thomas is an elite player now. No way in is he elite in the mid-00s. He's basically Bobby Jackson 2.0.
I feel bad for Kawhi, I really do. He should be the best offensive player in the league by far, but the broken 3 point shot has given inefficient shooters (Harden would struggle in the mid-00s) a way to equalize.
Oh, and why do you all think I put "antiquated" in quotes?
Kawhi's game is actually more advanced than a Harden's, but because of the 3 point shot, Kawhi's game isn't rewarded with the same efficiency relative to other top players as it should be. Jordan was the most efficient perimeter player in the league because he could post up and nail midrange shots, while most guards of the day were just single minded penetrators and easier to guard.
I find it broken that inefficient 4-12 shooting produces the same as efficient 6-12 shooting.
"Well, the 3 point shot is harder."
It isn't. It's also easier to get a 3 point shot than a midrange shot. You just need a pick.
just showing people how stupid you are.Always comes back to Parker with you
But that's all "the help" that Kawhi has.
An elite guard? It worked for LeBron and KD, it would work for Kawhi, too.Simply hoping for a decent PG to come along won't solve everything.
Like I've said before, a player can't play or shoot well every game of a playoffs series.Midrange jumpers aren't sustainable. You'll find this out the hard way in the playoffs, and probably shift the blame, like you always do. Guess what he shot from the midrange in the playoffs last season? I'll let you look it up.
Kawhi had some MVP level in the first games and then had two bad last games in 2015 and 2016 playoffs. That was painful to watch but we can expect those things.
Opposite teams adjust on the hot scorer, the shots aren't falling...
When a player starts cold the series but get hot in the last games it's likely his team win the series. It happened with Kawhi in 2014 and LeBron in 2016.
Again, Kawhi won't shoot over .60% in a whole playoffs series, the issue is the Spurs don't have a guy who steps up when Kawhi is off.
No. This is about how Kawhi hurts and puts this team at risk.Shifting the blame. You want to talk about the supporting cast issues, make a thread. This is about what Kawhi needs to work on.
This is about how Spurs wont win with Kawhi.... But I'm saying how they can win with him
He chose???To put it bluntly, he chose the wrong role-models (Kobe, Jordan) to build his game on.
Pop told him to watch those vids and mold his game in that way. Why you can't admit that this Spurs style of play is a result of Pop decisions?
Adapting for... what? "If he shoots 3's like Curry..." "If he plays like Harden...."But the lack of help shouldn't prevent him from adapting
And what's if Curry/Harden can defense or shoot from mid-range, or post-up, instead of taking half court 3's?
"Be like Harden"
Well, Harden was 5-20... and... 1-9 from 3 against GSW last game.
I'd say be careful about what you wish for Kawhi.
"But but if Kawhi was 7' 11, and has other arm to rebound, and...." Damn. Kawhi is a SF. And you expect he becomes into some SG?
Granted, he should shoot better from 3...But shooting like GSW when he's not a pure 3 guy? Talking about high expectations
Last edited by YGWHI; 03-30-2017 at 11:27 PM.
Oh yeah, wanting our starting PG to do well is extremely stupid.
i want tp to do well. you kept making it seem like he was much more than capableOh yeah, wanting our starting PG to do well is extremely stupid.
What do you consider a dribble-drive penetration style? To me that's not what GS is. They do a lot of off-ball stuff, let Donkey create at the top of the key, Curry isos, exploitation of match-ups, etc. Significantly different from the SSOL Suns or Harden's Rockets imo.
I really don't get your point though. Yeah, that style is hard but if he makes it work why does it matter? You keep saying it's unsustainable but his PPS is up there with those other guys. Yeah, gets harder for him in the playoffs but it's not like doesn't get harder for Steph and Harden as well.
Front line has been solid this year. Not enough to win, but Kawhi has enough help for the Spurs to have a puncher's chance.
Sure it would. Doesn't mean Kawhi should ignore his deficiencies. Even Lebron on the Heat. After the Mavs series, people criticized his lack of post-game and midrange jumper. What'd he do? Made himself a threat in both areas. I can already hear your reply. "See, Bron developed the post and midrange and the Heat won." That was 2012. League is much different now.An elite guard? It worked for LeBron and KD, it would work for Kawhi, too.
Sure. But a midrange centric offense has a higher variance. Does the simple math of of a 3 point shot being worth 50% more go over your head?Like I've said before, a player can't play or shoot well every game of a playoffs series.
Kawhi had some MVP level in the first games and then had two bad last games in 2015 and 2016 playoffs.
Problem is he basically has to shoot 60% from the midrange to counter 3 point heavy attacks.Again, Kawhi won't shoot over .60% in a whole playoffs series, the issue is the Spurs don't have a guy who steps up when Kawhi is off.
I never said he hurts the team, but there's no questioning that a midrange game is "riskier." Again, what is about the midrange shot being the worst in basketball that you don't get? "Well, Kawhi shoots them at 50%." Not sustainable in the playoffs.No. This is about how Kawhi hurts and puts this team at risk.
They can win with him, but he'll need to tweak his game while the Spurs find a star PG. All the top teams have at least two guys who can both penetrate and shoot 3s off the dribble. Curry/Durant, Lebron/Irving, Thomas/Bradley, and all players who take less than 40% of their shots from the midrange. Kawhi takes 53% of this shots from the midrange.This is about how Spurs wont win with Kawhi.... But I'm saying how they can win with him
Shifting the blame. And all Pop said was he hoped Kobe would mentor him. Kawhi is his own man, is he not?He chose???
Pop told him to watch those vids and mold his game in that way. Why you can't admit that this Spurs style of play is a result of Pop decisions?
Adapting for... what? "If he shoots 3's like Curry..." "If he plays like Harden...."Need to reduce number of midrange attempts in favor of more 3s or drives. I'm not saying go total Harden or Curry, but 53% of attempts coming from the midrange is too much.
And what's if Curry/Harden can defense or shoot from mid-range, or post-up, instead of taking half court 3's?
Harden is a choker, we know this. I'm talking about Harden's style, not necessarily Harden the player.Well, Harden was 5-20... and... 1-9 from 3 against GSW last game. [/B]
Compared to other PGs on this team, he's the only capable of addressing the needs.i want tp to do well. you kept making it seem like he was much more than capable
[QUOTE=FkLA;8951853]Harden, Westbrook, Thomas. Golden State is actually 5th in the league in points-in-the-paint. Not sure how much of it comes off penetration, though. And of course they play at a higher pace. The Spurs rank a dismal 28th in points-in-the-paint. And Golden State's 3 point shooting is so dangerous, Curry and co. walk in a lot of easy layups. Right now, Curry takes 22% of his shots from 0-3 (layups) and shoots 64%. Kawhi takes 18% of his shots from that distance, but shoots a tad higher at 66%, not enough to offset the lack of volume.What do you consider a dribble-drive penetration style? To me that's not what GS is. They do a lot of off-ball stuff, let Donkey create at the top of the key, Curry isos, exploitation of match-ups, etc. Significantly different from the SSOL Suns or Harden's Rockets imo.
In the regular season it is, but his PPS against the only real playoff team the Spurs faced was markedly lower. And like I said, a 3 point/penetration attack puts a lot more pressure on defenses than a midrange one, sends defenses into scrambles a lot more often, making things easier for role players. I think this is one of the reasons the Spurs gave up the lead seemingly so easily last night. It's exhausting having to cover all the ground running off shooters or collapsing on penetration. The most pressure a midrange post play will put on the defense is drawing the nearest man off his man. It doesn't really send a defense into "chaos."I really don't get your point though. Yeah, that style is hard but if he makes it work why does it matter? You keep saying it's unsustainable but his PPS is up there with those other guys. Yeah, gets harder for him in the playoffs but it's not like doesn't get harder for Steph and Harden as well.
Those guys aren't exactly sitting on top of the league though. Just seems like you're overrating that style a bit. You basically said the league went from being dominated by teams like the Spurs and the SSOL Suns being the odd man out, to now the SSOL Suns style being the dominant style. I don't see it.
What about Curry's PPS against '16 CLE and '15 MEM though? It's not like Curry's style is an absolute lock to be sustainable.In the regular season it is, but his PPS against the only real playoff team the Spurs faced was markedly lower. And like I said, a 3 point/penetration attack puts a lot more pressure on defenses than a midrange one, sends defenses into scrambles a lot more often, making things easier for role players. I think this is one of the reasons the Spurs gave up the lead seemingly so easily last night. It's exhausting having to cover all the ground running off shooters or collapsing on penetration. The most pressure a midrange post play will put on the defense is drawing the nearest man off his man. It doesn't really send a defense into "chaos."
I also think you're oversimplifying the double team. Theoretically, drawing a double team should send a defense scrambling to help out as well. Although tbf I think Kawhi still has to improve at reading and passing out of them. Too many times he just gets rid of the ball out of the double team without putting the team in an advantageous position.
Mid-range is riskier for Kawhi. But not for LMA? Suuure.
They can find an elite guard in this next offseason. If they really want to...There is no need for keep suffering effects of "loyalty" contracts...Hopefully Pop realizes it.They can win with him, but he'll need to tweak his game while the Spurs find a star PG.
All Pop said...Shifting the blame. And all Pop said was he hoped Kobe would mentor him. Kawhi is his own man, is he not?
Pop signed mid-range/post up players instead of picking slashers or 3-point shooters. Told Kawhi mold his game like MJ/Kobe...But "all Pop said".
How convenient, right? Harden's style of play didn't give him a ring, didn't make him a winner...But it should have to work for Kawhi...I'm talking about Harden's style, not necessarily Harden the player.
You sounds like a crazy man.
Don't let a fact ruin this thread.
Curry didn't shoot that well all playoffs games, the difference is he had a better supporting cast than Kawhi's that could hide his off nights.
according to you, someone pulled back in by parker
One of best Kawhi's FG% is at mid-j but you would rather see him shooting from 3 and missing instead of making buckets...Again. Crazy
I still wonder why you didn't say "the Spurs can't win with Kawhi" after he took over games this season.
Why you didn't make a thread saying "Kawhi puts this team at risk" after his 35 points vs GWS
Why you didn't whine about "Kawhi's mid-range is antiquated" after his mid-j buzzer beaters?
Travel but still a beautiful shot
You're just an opportunistic guy who waited for an off night to bring all this .
Kawais game isnt really anticated. Its spurs bread & butter on offense. You gotta milk it. BUT where its old fashioned is handling defenses focused on you & as chinook pointed out going with other options. If teammates arre hot or dont have the same focus., you have to utilize them.
Thats the next level Kawai has to get to.
Not trying to pull parker in . Needs to be repeated though. He's part of the problem. Other teammates (kawai mainly) are forced to make plays , when its not their gamedepending on how Tony is feeling. Some days hes got his legs other days he looks useless. Like last nightAlways comes back to Parker with you
I don't think you ever had an opinion that didn't somehow reference Parker.
That's actually a good point but it's made the sport enjoyable for the casual fan which is why it won't be addressed as game breaking. The beautiful game taken to the extreme is the GSW. Perhaps if thi s extreme continues to a perverse game breaking point something could be done (like in Wilts time... or years past forgive if I got the timing wrong, the paint area was widened and measures implemented to prevent a player from becoming so dominant there was effectively no strategy to defeat him.) I don't think the league is there yet but there are aspects of the game and styles that are completely being eliminated as ineffective and impossible to win with... tough to say what the ultimate outcome will be. Probably nothing.
LMA is a big. Midrange/Low post are his only options, and yes, I'd rather LMA go to the low-low post and manufacture himself layups. Nearly everyone here hates when LMA takes those 15 foot fadeaways.
That would solve a big problem, but it doesn't mean Kawhi doesn't have to further tweak his game.They can find an elite guard in this next offseason. If they really want to...There is no need for keep suffering effects of "loyalty" contracts...Hopefully Pop realizes it.
Link?All Pop said...
Pop signed mid-range/post up players instead of picking slashers or 3-point shooters. Told Kawhi mold his game like MJ/Kobe...But "all Pop said".
He's gotten further in the playoffs as his team's best than Kawhi has as his team's best player. Kawhi hasn't been past the second round as "the man."How convenient, right? Harden's style of play didn't give him a ring, didn't make him a winner...But it should have to work for Kawhi...
Last edited by midnightpulp; 03-31-2017 at 04:33 AM.
Are you this dumb? Do you realize you can miss TWO more attempts shooting 3s out of twelve shots and still produce the same as if you made six out of twelve midrange shots? And Chinook brought up a good point. Missed three pointers are actually "better" misses than missed midrange jumpers because it puts Kawhi in a better position to get back and defend the fast break.
I never said the Spurs can't win with Kawhi. I'm saying his style of game makes winning and team building a more difficult task than if he played a more "modern" game.
It's not my personal opinion necessarily. Like I said, you can't beat math.
Nothing can 100% sustainable, of course, but I would bet on Curry's offense as the more sustainable one over Kawhi's. Kawhi hasn't even averaged over 25ppg in the post-season, but he's only been the man for 2 seasons, so we'll see what happens.What about Curry's PPS against '16 CLE and '15 MEM though? It's not like Curry's style is an absolute lock to be sustainable.
It can, but from what I see, it just doesn't create the same havoc as 3 point/penetration.I also think you're oversimplifying the double team. Theoretically, drawing a double team should send a defense scrambling to help out as well. Although tbf I think Kawhi still has to improve at reading and passing out of them. Too many times he just gets rid of the ball out of the double team without putting the team in an advantageous position.
When Parker looks good, he's what we need (a penetrator), so of course I'm going to root for him. But now I think the nail is finally in the coffin. Problem is, there's no solution. You can't simply throw House in there. He doesn't solve the penetration issue, is too small to defend starting point guards, and is needed off the bench. Again, Murray was needed as insurance, but that didn't happen. So deal with it and just hope magic happens and Tony finds a spark of his prime self.according to you, someone pulled back in by parker
Yep. He also said that "Kawhi isn't even Spurs best defender" when he won his first DPOY, then he said "Kawhi defense is overrated" when he won his second.
We all know about "his takes" about Kawhi.
The best? "Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait"
Only on ST you can find crazy people who think that Kawhi's game should be reduced to just parking in corner and take some occasional open 3...
Again, I'd love to know why we didn't hear these two guys after Kawhi made all those clutch shots.
"But but he shouldn't take that shot, better he stays glued to 3-point line and let Parker or Danny win the game for us"
Last edited by YGWHI; 03-31-2017 at 05:11 AM.
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