Kawhi's offensive game is "antiquated."

[YGWHI]

Link?

http://www.expressnews.com/sports/sp...e-10784536.php

When the Spurs first landed Kawhi Leonard in the summer of 2011, coach Gregg Popovich directed him to the film room with a mantra familiar to many Chicagoans.

Be like Mike.

“One of the first things we did when he came was we got him Michael Jordan clips,” Popovich said before the Spurs faced the Bulls in Jordan’s old stomping grounds at the United Center on Thursday...

Specifically, Popovich wanted Leonard to watch the Hall of Famer’s footwork, which the coach called “magnificent.”
“The way he posted, the way he pivoted, his rocker step, his ability to pump-fake and move,” Popovich said. “He was brilliant in his fundamentals, and it made him great. I wanted Kawhi to see that.”

Pop wanted Kawhi to be a post-up player since day 1. "But but Kawhi chose to watch MJ/Kobe" "But but all Pop said..."

He's gotten further in the playoffs as his team's best than Kawhi has as his team's best player. Kawhi hasn't been past the second round as "the man."

Further... When you say that Spurs can't win with Kawhi, you talk about rings, Harden doesn't have one for some good reason.

[midnightpulp]

Yep. He also said that "Kawhi isn't even Spurs best defender" when he won his first DPOY, then he said "Kawhi defense is overrated" when he won his second.

We all know about "his takes" about Kawhi.

The best? "Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait"

Only on ST you can find crazy people who think that Kawhi's game should be reduced to just parking in corner and take some occasional open 3...

Again, I'd love to know why we didn't hear these two guys after Kawhi made all those clutch shots.

"But but he shouldn't take that shot, better he stays glued to 3-point line and let Parker or Danny win the game for us"

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

[midnightpulp]

http://www.expressnews.com/sports/sp...e-10784536.php



Pop wanted Kawhi to be a post-up player since day 1. "But but Kawhi chose to watch MJ/Kobe" "But but all Pop said..."



Further... When you say that Spurs can't win with Kawhi, you talk about rings, Harden doesn't have one for some good reason.

Did you see the key phrase in that article?

In 2011...

Unfortunately the game has changed now and Jordan style midpost play is a relic (to my dismay). Kawhi is also his own man. Just cause Pop set him on one path doesn't mean he can't detour and add things to his game. Again, everyone criticized Lebron for having no post game and midrange game when the Heat lost to the Mavs. He worked and developed those areas. So either someone in the Spurs org needs to bring it to Kawhi's attention or Kawhi needs to realize it himself.

And if Kawhi can't develop those areas, then the Spurs need to bring in someone who can play that style of game at a high level. But as Harlem pointed out, Kawhi's usage will likely drop and he won't average the pretty 25-26ppg you want him to.

[MaNu4Tres]

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

Agree with this. In a 7 game series, the teams who manufacture the best and most efficient shots will win more often than not. The Spurs manufacture too many long two's to ever beat the W's in a 7 game series and I honestly believe the Rockets will have an advantage over the Spurs in a series as well because of this very aspect.

[midnightpulp]

Agree with this. In a 7 game series, the teams who manufacture the best and most efficient shots will win more often than not. The Spurs manufacture too many long two's to ever beat the W's in a 7 game series and I honestly believe the Rockets will have an advantage over the Spurs in a series as well because of this very aspect.

Yep. Pretty much every team and its star players shoot less than 30% of their shots from the midrange. Durant is the only exception at about 40%.

Don't know why this fact is so hard for some here to comprehend.

[YGWHI]

Did you see the key phrase in that article?

In 2011...

Unfortunately the game has changed now and Jordan style midpost play is a relic (to my dismay). Kawhi is also his own man. Just cause Pop set him on one path doesn't mean he can't detour and add things to his game. Again, everyone criticized Lebron for having no post game and midrange game when the Heat lost to the Mavs. He worked and developed those areas. So either someone in the Spurs org needs to bring it to Kawhi's attention or Kawhi needs to realize it himself.

And if Kawhi can't develop those areas, then the Spurs need to bring in someone who can play that style of game at a high level. But as Harlem pointed out, Kawhi's usage will likely drop and he won't average the pretty 25-26ppg you want him to.

I want... what? I don't want Kawhi parking in the corner taking and missed 3's all game. But I never said a word about his ppg.

If they would sign a high-USG type of guard, that guy will see his usage dropping too, but him and Kawhi, both can still get some 23-24 ppg playing together.

If Kawhi's USG% and ppg drops in orden to get the Spurs and him more rings, I can't see the issue.

[YGWHI]

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy.

"Spurs can't win with Kawhi"

"Kawhi is hurting this team"

"Kawhi puts this team at risk"

And people who think that's unfair and oportunistic, it's just a sensitive fanboy. Of course...

[midnightpulp]

I want... what? I don't want Kawhi parking in the corner taking and missed 3's all game. But I never said a word about his ppg.

If they would sign a high-USG type of guard, that guy will see his usage dropping too, but him and Kawhi, both can still get some 23-24 ppg playing together.

If Kawhi's USG% and ppg drops in orden to get the Spurs and him more rings, I can't see the issue.

Corner 3 is the most efficient shot in basketball. Why wouldn't you want him taking more?

Oh, I know, because it deprives you of watching Kawhi "go to the work" in the post in one-on-one iso situations.

That said, since we lack guard penetration, you're right that Kawhi shouldn't park in the corner, since no one can really drive and kick on this team. But if we get that PG we all want, you can bet Kawhi will be taking more corner 3s.

[midnightpulp]

"Spurs can't win with Kawhi"

"Kawhi is hurting this team"

"Kawhi puts this team at risk"

And people who think that's unfair and oportunistic, it's just a sensitive fanboy. Of course...

Never said any of that.

[YGWHI]

Corner 3 is the most efficient shot in basketball. Why wouldn't you want him taking more?

Do you really know that Kawhi is taking 1.5 more 3's this season, right?

Even KD on All-3point shots-team is taking less 3PAs.

Kawhi 5.3 3PA KD 5...

Not sure why you want Kawhi will be forced to take 6-7 3PAs per game. That's just stupid.

But if we get that PG we all want, you can bet Kawhi will be taking more corner 3s.

But also that PG will prevent teams to double Kawhi and he'll post up more too.

[midnightpulp]

Do you really know that Kawhi is taking 1.5 more 3's this season, right?

Even KD on All-3point shots-team is taking less 3PAs.

Kawhi 5.3 3PA KD 5...

Not sure why you want Kawhi will be forced to take 6-7 3PAs per game. That's just stupid.


But also that PG will prevent teams to double Kawhi and he'll post up more too.

Yes. And that's good.

Of course KD is going to take less 3s. He has to share the ball with two other volume 3 point shooters.

No. 6-7 3PAs isn't "stupid."

Most of the top teams have a star player who averages more than 6-7 3PA per game.

I hope he doesn't post up more from the midrange. Least efficient shot in the game. Get it through your head. But I know, know, you love watching him "go to work."

[YGWHI]

Of course KD is going take less 3's He has to share the ball with other volumen 3 point shooters.

No. KD has 4.7 as 3PA career, LeBron 4.

But Kawhi is the only dominant SF in the league that should take more 7-8 3PA per game, right?

Is this thread about to ignore Kawhi's strengths? If that...You're doing a great job here.

A team has to play his best player at his strengths to win, should maximize his game and hide his weaknesses. The opposite of forcing him to become into a type of player he's not...

Most of the top teams have a star player who averages more than 6-7 3PA per game.

In the top teams, ALL those stars taking more than 6 FGAs are PGs, neither one of them is a SF, also they take more FGAs overall than Kawhi.

[midnightpulp]

No. KD has 4.7 as 3PA career, LeBron 4.

But Kawhi is the only dominant SF in the legue that should take more 8 3PA per game...

Is this thread about to ignore Kawhi's strengths? If that...You're doing a great job here.

A team has to play his best player at his strengths to win, should maximize his game and hide his weakness. The opposite of forcing him to become into a type of player he's not...



In the top teams, ALL those stars taking more than 6 FGAs are PGs, neither one of them is a SF, also they take more FGAs overall than Kawhi.

You realize KD and Lebron both played a few years before the 3 point happy era, right?

KD was averaging about 6.3 attempts with the Thunder since 2014 before joining the Warriors. Before 2014, he was at about 4.2 attempts, so he adapted. Lebron indeed has never been a gunner, but remember, I also want Kawhi to produce more layups for himself. Let's take a look at the respective amount of shots each player takes from 0-3 feet:

Lebron: .422 (so nearly half his shots attempts are layups)

KD: .270

Kawhi: .182

Yeah, a team does have to use the strengths of their best player, problem is Kawhi's main offensive strengths are "less strong" than the strengths of other top players. Again, you can put your fingers in your ears and deny the numbers, but that isn't going to change reality. Here's a simple breakdown from what I would like to see from Kawhi.

Right now, he shoots about 53% of his shots from the midrange. I'd like that percentage to drop to 35% in favor of more layups and threes equally distributed. It would also improve overall spacing and put more pressure on defenses.

[YGWHI]

Right now, he shoots about 53% of his shots from the midrange. I'd like to that percentage drop to 35% in favor of more layups and threes equally distributed. It would also improve overall spacing and put more pressure on defenses.

Right now, he shoots 30% of his shots from 3. 17.9 FGAs/5.3 3PAs

If he should shoot 35% of his shots from mid-range and has to equally distributed the rest of his shots in layups and 3's, it's about 30-32% from 3.

So he's taking already that 3PAs %.

"But but he has to adapt..." "He has to take 8 3PAs like Harden..." "Every top team have a star taking 6-7 3PAs..." "Be like Harden but not too much like him, after all he's a choker..."

Like Ive said before, stop smoking that .

[Chinook]

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

You have to understand that Y is completely intellectually dishonest. So he takes out the context and even half the sentence for most quotes and never preserves the link.

Ironically, though the "corner" remark comes from a similar thread started by FKLA like 16 months ago. This is the full quote:

Kawhi plays a lot with the second unit for a guy who starts. He's the last guy subbed out, or second-to-last if LMA has to stay in. But anyway, Parker's a Spur for three more years. You don't waste his last good years planning for him not being on the team. If Parker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action. The only initiator that's better than a clean Parker drive is a Diaw mismatch post-up.

And this was the post that pissed Y off.

The Spurs should give the hot hand the ball, now and always. If Tony's offense is having an Indian summer, he gets the ball. Duncan got the ball against the Clippers, and he fails every check you had set up for Parker. Kawhi will have to learn to play with guys, because his offense outside of set plays and spot-up shots isn't all that conducive to sharing the ball. That will come in time, but a non-marginalized Kawhi is going to bog down the offense a bit -- look at Melo and Kobe in their primes for examples of this, and then calibrate for the way the game has changed.

It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

[midnightpulp]

Right now, he shoots 30% of his shots from 3. 17.9 FGAs/5.3 3PAs

If he should shoot 35% of his shots from mid-range and has to equally distributed the rest of his shots in layups and 3's, it's about 30-32% from 3.

So he's taking already that 3PAs %.

"But but he has to adapt..." "He has to take 8 3PAs like Harden..." "Every top team have a star taking 6-7 3PAs..." "Be like Harden but not too much like him, after all he's a choker..."

Like Ive said before, stop smoking that .

They do. Deny it all you want.

Right now, Kawhi is taking 9.4 shots per game from the midrange, to drop down to the 35% I want him, he'd have to reduce the number of midrange shots by about 3, giving him 1.5 more layup attempts per and 1.5 more 3s per game. Currently, his PPS sits at 1.44. Kawhi shoots about 50% on midrange shots, so his PPS is exactly 1 on those types of shots. His PPS on layups is 1.32. His PPS on 3s is 1.11.

So currently Kawhi's offense looks like this:

9.4ppg from the midrange
4.2ppg from layups
5.8ppg from 3

=19.4ppg. (remember, we're not counting FT attempts.

If Kawhi does what I want, he'll expect to average:

6.4ppg from the midrange
6.2ppg from layups
7.4ppg from 3

=20ppg.

A .6 ppg improvement doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. For example, let's say a player scores 20 points in two straight games in regulation. The second game was lost in OT. A .5 ppg improvement would mean he scored 21ppg in one of the games, hopefully the 2nd one. Point is, one extra point is often the difference between a win and a loss or even a le.

Seeing the numbers now, I would like Kawhi to actually shave off as much midrange attempts as he can to manufacture an extra point-per-game. Furthermore, Kawhi is having a "down year" in 3 point shooting, so there's even more room there, while he's shooting just about as good as one can from the midrange.

[midnightpulp]

You have to understand that Y is completely intellectually dishonest. So he takes out the context and even half the sentence for most quotes and never preserves the link.

Ironically, though the "corner" remark comes from a similar thread started by FKLA like 16 months ago. This is the full quote:



And this was the post that pissed Y off.



It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

Yeah, like banging my head against the wall. Can't help myself, though. Kawhi is a flawless player. It's all on Pop, Porker, the FO, etc, etc.

I don't like the fact the midrange game is a relic anymore than they do, and unfortunately Kawhi came into the league after Dirk just won a le, killing it from midrange postups and jumpers, Kobe was still considered an elite scorer because of it, and all the criticism toward Lebron was that he didn't have a jumper or post game, so it was natural for Kawhi and the Spurs to develop him in that mold.

Then the Warriors happened, and analytics confirmed their style of play as the most effective.

[YGWHI]

"If Parker is having an Indian summer...IfParker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

I guess the guy who replied to your pots in that thread that Parker wasn't that player anymore and the team should adjust to Kawhi's strengths WAS RIGHT.

"Kawhi defense is overrated""Kawhi isnt Spurs best defender" Of course...you're an objective guy

[YGWHI]

I find this so funny. Neither mid or chinnok couldn't see this coming...

"He can score 25 points against Warriors" "If Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."

He couldnt do it against elite teams after 2014 playoffs but they keep saying these stupid things...Just amazing, right?

[midnightpulp]

I find this so funny. Neither mid or chinnok couldn't see this coming...

"He can score 25 points against Warriors" "If Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."

He couldnt do it against elite teams after 2014 playoffs but they keep saying these stupid things...Just amazing, right?

Are you this dumb, really?

Who the else should we hope for on this team that can get into the paint consistently? House? Manu?

Spurs didn't sign anyone, banking on Parker. We as fans have no choice but to deal with it, and hope for the best when Parker shows flashes.

As a playerfan first, you wouldn't understand.

[Chinook]

As a playerfan first, you wouldn't understand.

Dude doesn't even seem to get the concept of a hot hand. There will be times when Parker and/or Manu have throw-back games. When those happen, the team needs to ride them.

You can't about Kawhi not having help but also want him to jack up shots even when his "help" is showing up.

[skulls138]

Dude doesn't even seem to get the concept of a hot hand. There will be times when Parker and/or Manu have throw-back games. When those happen, the team needs to ride them.

You can't about Kawhi not having help but also want him to jack up shots even when his "help" is showing up.

You dont seem to acknowledge Kawhis rising assist numbers. Theres some ungrateful people on this board. Tim Duncan retired, Parkers a s of himself and Manus not far behind and we're still the second best team in the league. Why? Kawhi "The Klaw" Leonard...period. Not LMA thats for goddamn sure.

[dabom]

"Lma should be the number 1 option and is more efficient than kawhi"- Chinook

[Chinook]

You dont seem to acknowledge Kawhis rising assist numbers.

That's only a salve for the larger issue. As I said, the problem with Kawhi's offense isn't Kawhi usually. It was last game. There are more fundamental issues with how it affects the offense and defense. But that's not about him being selfish or inefficient. He's still trying to mature into a championship first option. He's getting better at passing when he can't score, but he has a ways to go in terms of setting guys up even when he can score.

Theres some ungrateful people on this board.

That's very true. But there are more people who only see what they want to see. Saying things are Kawhi's fault has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation. It has everything to do with giving an honest evaluation.

Please, spare me the "why do you hate Kawhi?" talk. I love Kawhi. But there are problems with the team trying to win with him as their lead guy. Him being a better version of the same player he is right now wouldn't fix that problem. We just have to hope that guys like Parker and Manu are able to provide the driving the team needs when the time comes.

[FkLA]

Of course KD is going to take less 3s. He has to share the ball with two other volume 3 point shooters.

So what you're saying is that the problem is the Spurs not Kawhi? If Kawhi had the exact same 3PT attempts on GS, he wouldn't be antiquated anymore?