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I'm pretty sure LA wants Kawhi gone. He gets more shots that way and Kawhi isn't a team player.
Still, the Spurs has basically been -1 in depth since that move and the starting lineup is always falling behind early...
I'm pretty sure LA wants Kawhi gone. He gets more shots that way and Kawhi isn't a team player.
Good read OP.. I don’t agree with everything but some good food for thought..
agree in in particular on tony manu and Kyle tbh
As long as Pop stays I don’t see much changing as far as the contributing system goes. Maybe Manu could be upgraded to a player/assistant coach position, thus continuing to suffice the renew crowd. I think Tony will retire.
Kawhiso offiense is a losing proposition. Sure he can score, but he's also the best defender in the league. Which do you want? Which does he want?
The problem with the coaching staff is that they've been poached to death. They still have Chip and it seems like Udoka has been great with helping players like Green, Kiwi, and Fathead, but Forcier, Bud, and Brown are gone and Pop just isn't what he used to be. I'm willing to give RC the benefit of the doubt drafting-wise but him and Pop have made some terrible roster decisions as of late. Can't really say I'm a fan of their draft history post-Kawhi either; yes they've been drafting at the end of the first round but for all the Murray's they've gotten they've taken the LJC's as well.
He wants to score because it will get him shoe deals. But it doesn’t matter. He’s holding out to force a trade to LA or Golden State. What a disgusting pos.
Philly didn't go from having a top team in the East to tanking because one player got hurt. I've seen you dismiss the playoffs this year. Thats ing spoiled man. You get a chance to watch Manu compete more and watch a team with a lot of heart continue to find ways to win and potentially pull off an upset, and you wring your hands over a mid range 1st round draft pick and talk about tanking. You guys are willing to sacrafice compe ve years in order to try to go a route Philly went that took half a decade and is still one Embiid injury from being less than stellar.
I trust RC too, but I trust PATFO to also rebuild around Aldridge and to compete. Do I think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes sense? No. Do I think retooling around a 33 year old who has a game that will age extremely well and is still a top 10 player in the league makes more sense than going full tank? Um, yes.
It isn't that LMA needs 20 FGAs its that Kawhi was full Kawhiso last season and it seemed to throw off LMA. I've been rewatching some of Kawhi highlights and it's pretty clear that it was an issue. Kawhi would get the ball, either go one on one or get a screen from Gasol while Aldridge is standing near the left corner. They seldom ever ran P&R/P and Kawhi didn't actively feed LMA in the post.
Having Gasol as the permanent backup 5 with Anderson, Green, Mills, and Murray beside Aldridge has been a good lineup but Pop keeps waffling back and forth between benching Pau and starting him.
The non-shooting perimeter players on this team are a problem that has become a much bigger issue without Kawhi. Gasol served as a stretch 5 and Kawhi consistently got him open looks from three when running p&p but without him, Gasol has regressed from 3.
Comin from Sacramento, Gay was actually a solid 3pt shooter but has seemingly abandoned (only about 1/5 of his attempts are from 3) taking them in favor of iso mid rangers, which he actually seems to be hitting pretty well but that's not ideal.
Forbes is too 1-D to play- if he isn't hitting what does he do warrant playing?
Bertans has been wildly inconsistent from three but teams guard him out there and the LMA-Bertans pairing is solid defensively and really good offensively compared to Gasol-LMA. He's fallen out of the rotation in favor of Anderson and Gay at the 4 which probably the right call because their both better but the Spurs second best 3pt shooter is getting DNP's (based off 3pt %) -actually the two best 3pt shooters are getting DNPs (Forbes leads the team, go figure).
Parker and Murray don't take them enough and certainly don't make the ones they take and Anderson is actually hitting almost 33% but only accounts for 13% of his shots.
I do agree with the idea that this team is built around Pop's style of play. Its early 2000's ball tbh.
To Seattle most likely
I can see the argument for keeping Aldridge if Leonard actually comes back and is healthy, but if he's gone the Spurs are a borderline playoff team just like Philly was when they decided to dump Iguodala. That's not sacrificing compe ive years, it's sacrificing a couple of mediocre years to jumpstart an inevitable rebuild. I wanted the Spurs to miss the playoffs because this team cannot win on the road and has a ton of trouble in close games. That's not a recipe for playoff success. Making the playoffs is going to cost them about 7 spots in the draft when this team is in desperate need of talent on its roster, and all so best case they can eek out a first round series only to get destroyed by Golden State or Houston in the second. Not that I have much faith in the team to win the first round series against anyone they'll be going against when they can't beat anyone on the road. If you think caring more about the future than a lost season is being spoiled you're nuts.
I don't know how you can call Philly less than stellar when they're winning games without Embiid right now. One year of dumping Iggy to see what they had in Thaddeus Young, three years of actual tanking, and then a fourth year of tanking forced on them by injuries isn't too bad when they now have a team that looks like it'll be a legit contender going forward and has a real shot to make the conference finals in Simmons' rookie year.
Thoughtful and good thread, nice change for this forum.
I agree on most accounts, including on Kyle. The piece that could have taken him to the next level was a reliable shot, but 4 years later it’s still not there. Price will be the key there. North of 21m/3yrs seems like a reach.
I’m a Danny fan even just for his career story arch alone, but we’re in a new phase. He’s a perfect peice when you have a big three, but not when you’re trying to rebuild/reload. He’s got a ring, now I hope he goes an gets paid.
The Leonard thing continues to be unsettling. I just don’t know how a team comes back from that, especially where the player is not expressive. At least Pop and LMA had an adult conversation and man hugged it out; I don’t see Leonard opening up in the same way. I hope I’m wrong, but if not I hope the Spurs make a clean break quickly and get the best combo of picks/talent possible. No need to enter training camp with that distraction.
I’m still a Patty fan, and frankly I don’t think we have a better option in our guard rotation at the moment. Spurs could functionally (and maybe actually) lose all of Green, Manu, and TP by next camp. Forbes started well but regressed, White is still unknown at the NBA level, Paul has been unremarkable. We kinda need him for at least one more year alongside Murray.
Pau needs to be actively shopped next year for a team need cap relief. Same goes for Danny (if he opts in) and Gay.
Do you really believe LMA would score +23 ppg this season if he wouldn't get +18 FGAs per game?
LMA wanted to be traded because he didn't feel comfortable how Pop "used" him...in a season where he didn't even fight for offensive rebounds.
Do you really think if LMA has to share his "touches" with a top scorer like Kawhi/Lillard/whoever, he would have this type of season?
Like it or not, he only feels comfortable as the main guy.
The Spurs aren't the Warriors, they don't have plenty of possessions to give the #2 option on the team 18 FGAs...
If you tell LMA he won't be #1 option because his teammate is a better player, more versatile scorer...He'll demand a trade like he already did in the past.
Also "Kawhi was full Kawhiso" last season, meant only 12% fq of his time on court. Pretty much like KD in Warriors ball movement last season.
Last edited by YGWHI; 04-08-2018 at 02:32 PM.
It seems like in highlights you didn't watch the many times that Kawhi was parking in the corner while Parker & LMA ran the show...
Only Parker -and to a lesser extent, Manu- were the players that Pop wanted to run P&Rs with LMA last seasons.
Since Pop designed "take your turn" offense, when Kawhi had the ball, LMA wasn't involved. And vice versa.
I guess we already talked about this. If Pop would have called P&Rs/P&Pops between Kawhi and LMA, building chemistry, the offense would have looked completely different.
Whose fault is that?
I doubt LMA cares about this.
He said it was so hard to make a decision between the Suns and the Spurs in 2015.
If he's the main guy and they run the offense through him, it doesn't matter if he's playing for a contender or not.
Tony averaged 29/7 on 55% shooting in the 08/09 playoffs.
They also weren’t a complete disaster this year with him at the helm, though ceratinly blw spurs standards. If they net Tatum, Brown, Kings pick and Memphis pick from Boston, there is enough there to build on for the rest of LMAs time in SA. Not to mention some of the young guys like Murray and Davis got some key run this season.
Agree. Another reason why LMA won't demand a trade if they aren't a contender next season, he'll continue being the main guy if they get Tatum/Brown.
Both rookies look great but they won't be Spurs leading scorers next seson. LMA'll have two more years at least as the guy on the team -which is all he needs to feel comfortable.-
Right, if we are going to do a season review, here is what I think we learned.
The elephant in the room : The Kawhi Situation. As fans we don't know what is going on, we (and the media) are pretty much just spitballing at this point. We haven't actually learned anything, but hopefully PATFO has a better view into the situation. The PATFO and the Kawhi camp will do what they will do...
Strategic Lessons : a) 3 real bigs is not enough - we've been caught several times this season, when 2 of the bigs are resting/hurt/playing badly. We should carry 4 big men. b) We've got to many really small guards. Really small guards need to be really good to keep around, unless they are 3ed men at the position (and kept for leadership). Ours aren't - IMO we can afford 1 mediocre small guard for team leadership. The choice is between keeping Mills or Tony... ( and I would choose Tony, given his next contract will be cheaper than Mills. I also put some value on loyalty, he's been a good soldier about going to the bench). This may not be an actual size issue, but rather the fact that all our midgets are weak defenders, even for their size. c) We need more 3 pt shooting and ball handling/driving threats on the perimeter. Our offensive balance is pretty poor - more threat on the perimeter would open things up a lot.
The players
Keepers (unless you get a really good offer, or say can do something franchise changing - like getting Lebron)
Kawhi - Call it being optimistic about the situation, but currently, I hope he can come back an lead the franchise. If not, we need to move him for value. A very difficult decision to make, and moving him for actual value is going to be very tough on the FO.
LMA - has been really good
Murray - is developing
White - should have been playing over Mills, Forbes, and even Tony
Manu - Would be quite happy if he chooses not to retire and stays another season, if only for the leadership and the example he provides. However, he needs to be 9th or 10th man, in a break glass in case of emergency cage.
Signed long term but we should look to move
Pau - Has been ok, but can't be played against the best teams. Is paid too much. If you can get something of value...
Mills - Is paid like a starter, and he's not good enough. Needs to be moved to make roster space...
Brandon Paul - For a 15th man he's fine. But he's in a roster spot...
Possible Opt Outs
Green - I suspect he won't, because he's not going to see an offer on the scale of next years $10 Million in this market. If he goes, we have full bird rights and I would match anything up to $9 million.
Gay - I don't know if he will opt out. I'm hoping he doesn't, to simplify the # of moving parts this offseason and because we want to spend the MLE getting better, not replacing him. We could resign him at a 20% raise using his non-bird rights.
Joffrey - If he opts out, fine, one more roster spot to work with. If he opts in, it's for the vet min, and he's acceptable as FOURTH big...
RFA's
Forbes - don't keep - need the roster spot. Has not developed enought, thus he is not worth bringing back.
TP9 - I'd like to bring him back as 3ed pg for the vet min. In that roster spot and salary, I am more than willing to keep him until he's 40 - I do value his loyalty and culture to that extent. I suspect the PATFO will give him more - LLE or Bi-annual exception money? Which I am not as appreciative of...
Kyle - He's in the RFA trap, and he's not a big time offensive player. I don't think he going to get a big offer from anyone. In fact I think he's going to get the Jonathan Simmons treatment - no offers because of RFA status. Bring him back, either for less than the MLE, or on the QO.
Bertans - might get a decent offer as we only have limited bird rights. Match anything up to (smaller) taxpayer MLE.
2 Way contacts
Costello, Hilliard - I'd let both of them go. It's not worth the opportunity cost of looking at new players, to keep either around; neither has shown enough IMO.
What next year theoretically looks like
Bigs - LMA, Pau, ?Milutinov?, Joff
PF/SF - Kawhi, Gay, Anderson, ?Bertan?
SG: ?Green? , MLE FA (Tyreke Evans?), ?Manu?, ?Paul?
PG: Murray, White, Parker
Maybe a first round pick in place of one the question marks - but we might spend it moving Mills...
2 new players on two-way contracts
Philly has essentially the same record as the Spurs despite playing in a much weaker conference and you're acting like they're way better. If Kawhi is gone, then the Spurs are getting something for him and you can't reasonably tell me that what they get doesn't keep them on par with a team like Philly. It probably doesn't put them over Golden State or Houston, but no one else in the NBA is much better than the Spurs are RIGHT NOW WITHOUT KAWHI!!!!! This is the that those advocating for tanking seem to be missing. In a year when the Spurs are supposedly a team, they can still finish 3rd in the ing West and if they had been planning to play the entire season without Kawhi then I have no doubt they would be.
Before Philly tanked, they had not had a season with a winning percentage over .530, which is substantially less than the Spurs right NOW. I get that Philly is the hot team and I really think Simmons is going to be amazing. Embiid is a great talent as well, but I'm not sold he's going to be healthy for long. That being said, while their future is potentially brighter than the Spurs its not by much at all. If the Spurs were to do something like the Celtics trade where they get Tatum + a player + picks and dump Kawhi and Pau's contract, then you can't tell me the Spurs aren't a top 4 West team.
You guys are spoiled because you've won for so log you're willing to forego compe ive years to start tanking now when you don't have to. For every Philly, I can point to a team like the Kings who can't get together. Its not that easy. Furthermore, it's not like anyone saw 2012-2014 coming so I'm not just going to blow up when the Spurs can easily still compete. When Philly traded Iggy, he wasn't as good as Aldridge is now, they hadn't had a season as good as the Spurs are having now despite being in a much weaker conference, and they certainly didn't have a trade piece with the value that Kawhi has (or the prospect of his return).
^^I'd be surprised if Kyle doesn't receive offers, even with money drying up..it's the advanced metrics era, he's a monster in that regard, he could excel in a situation where he's surrounded by shooting.. obviously he needs to get the Diaw out of his system, although it's possible that he will never become an aggressive offensive player..
Simmons didn't receive offers because he's a garbage time All-Star with memorable dunks that attract casuals..he's been a net negative throughout his career, regardless of coach or teammates..
We will see
You think the Sixers' future isn't substantially brighter than the Spurs' with Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz? Simmons is the best rookie I have seen since LeBron. And get out of here with that much weaker conference talk when Philly traded Iggy. You're going to tell me you'd take today's Rockets or Golden State with a gimpy Curry over the 66 win Heat le team? This year's West is top heavy with Houston and Golden State, but teams 3-8 are enormous steps down in talent with Kawhi out and with Durant and CP3 departed from former contenders and leaving them in shambles. This isn't the west of a couple of years ago when you have 4-5 teams that could win a le.
Also I doubt Aldridge has the work ethic of Duncan to remain a bigtime player into his late 30s. I don't see where the Spurs' bright future retooling around Aldridge comes from if Kawhi is gone and they trade him for two quarters on the dollar. I don't get your point with the Kings; the Spurs aren't run by morons who blow great picks on crap like Jimmer and Stauskas. And spoiled by winning? I was following this team when it was starting Wes Matthews and David Greenwood and the team's future was Alfrederick Hughes. I'm not a championship or bust fan but I'd like to see the Spurs making moves to give them a chance to have a window of contention. With how superstar dominant this sport is, unless they can retain their superstar they need to be swinging for the fences in the draft and hope they can find another.
1st round series that was almost a sweep in which Barea was taking him off the dribble at willTony averaged 29/7 on 55% shooting in the 08/09 playoffs.
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