Brandon Jennings: Manu is a Top 5 Shooting Guard of All-Time

[Spurtacular]

Webber was traded to Philly to get AI some help. Along with Korver, Iguodala and Dalembert, Philadelphia was suppossed to be one of the best teams in the East. Instead, they never did . Webber then went on to say that Iverson "dribbled way too much and didn't know how to play real basketball". Which is true.

Yup. It worked at times when he had all the right pieces willing to defer so he could jack 30 shots a game and in the weaker eastern conference; but he was just never that good in the team scheme.

[SpursDynasty85]

Webber was traded to Philly to get AI some help. Along with Korver, Iguodala and Dalembert, Philadelphia was suppossed to be one of the best teams in the East. Instead, they never did . Webber then went on to say that Iverson "dribbled way too much and didn't know how to play real basketball". Which is true.

Webber was on his last legs with Iverson. I agree Iverson was extremely flawed but what taking Sixers to the 2001 finals and being one of the hardest people to guard early in his career, can't be overlooked. That Iverson would've killed it with some help too. http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2061465
Webber pretty much shot down what you are saying. The original article your referring to was from the Inquirer -- bad example.

Iguodala was like 20 and 21 years old when he played with Iverson. Hardly, ready to win championships. Dalembert... not going to respond to that one.

Look ok. Looking back at their peak it's hard to argue imo but I do rate team success and versatility high so I'll give you Manu over Iverson. (Still debatable NY any stretch, but I'm calling it a tie between both Reggie and Ray) not dissing Manu at all. But it sounds silly to suggest Manu is clearly better than those 3 to me.

[ginobilized]

Ginobili's elite level passing more than balances his offensive limitations to players like Reggie Miller, AI, or Ray Allen. Harden is a work-in-progress with 0 championships and some epic meltdowns.
Manu's defense, compe iveness, leadership, team-orientation, rings and clutchness but him in the top 5 for sure.

Few players can win games for you by taking a charge, hitting a 3, intercepting an inbounds pass at 1 foot away (never seen anyone else do that!!!) making the great pass that leads to the bucket or to the next pass, block a shot, make a steal or take it to the rack. So many ways to win a basketball game with Manu. The others listed beat teams with offense. If they were not feeling it, there was little they could do to win a game.

Add this to the mix, Kobe called him his favorite player in the league. That says something.

[cd98]

Dude, are you even a Spurs fan? How can you be a Spurs fan and still not understand just how great Manu was?

Whoa. I love Manu and I do think he is an all-time great. But it's not absurd that someone thinks Ray Allen is better than Manu. A good comparison is the 2005 run, when Prime Manu was facing Prime Allen. It was a great series, though Manu obviously had the better team. But Ray put on a show and took a championship Spurs team to 6 games and game 6 could've gone either way. Manu was spectacular in that season and had the crazy game 5 where they put him the starting lineup and he responded with 39 points. Both great players and a toss up over who was better. Certainly Manu has lasted longer in the league and I would say he aged better than Ray, but then Ray did have 2014.

[Killakobe81]

really depends on the measurement but out of the top 5 is a hard sell.. From an overall skillset standpoint he was the GOAT, nobody ever has had such a complete arsenal, at any position. Overall he's probably #2 sg.

Manu is nails, but #2?!
Come on, yall... be realistic.

[XDT76]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

[daslicer]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

Manu beating USA was a great accomplishment for him but lets not overplay it. The way the Olympics tournament is set up is just like the NCAA tournament. It's one game eliminations where anything can happen. In the NCAA tournament you can see it happen every March where a bunch of scrubs upset a college team loaded with future NBA stars.

As good as Manu is he's not a top 5 SG. Not even close. If he was the Spurs would easily won back to back. As much as I like Manu he was never a superstar in the league of Kobe,Wade, and even Drexler. I would say Harden is also better than him despite his lack of defense. Manu could never carry a team like Harden can for a full season.

[cd98]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

That Team USA would’ve won if Kobe hadn’t raped and had to beg off the team. It was a misfit NBA team that had a coach that did not mesh with the players.

[daslicer]

That Team USA would’ve won if Kobe hadn’t raped and had to beg off the team. It was a misfit NBA team that had a coach that did not mesh with the players.

They didn't even need Kobe to win. Team USA beat the crap out of Argentina in '03 when they were qualifying for the Olympics. What happened was the next year several of the key players that were on the '03 team decided not to play. Had they decided to play than Team USA would have easily won the Gold in '04.

[DAF86]

Whoa. I love Manu and I do think he is an all-time great. But it's not absurd that someone thinks Ray Allen is better than Manu. A good comparison is the 2005 run, when Prime Manu was facing Prime Allen. It was a great series, though Manu obviously had the better team. But Ray put on a show and took a championship Spurs team to 6 games and game 6 could've gone either way. Manu was spectacular in that season and had the crazy game 5 where they put him the starting lineup and he responded with 39 points. Both great players and a toss up over who was better. Certainly Manu has lasted longer in the league and I would say he aged better than Ray, but then Ray did have 2014.

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

[SpursDynasty85]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

That Argentine team was the golden era for them. It will likely never happen again for them. Everyone on that team up to the top 7 or 8 guys were NBA level and basically grew up and played with each other. Talent wise Manu was not this great dominating force that overcame the USA but he was the best player. Argentine team played so well together that USA's generally back up squad minus a few players in 2 weeks of practice were not going to beat them.

Teams were catching up. In 2008 that great USA squad with emphatic motivation barely beat Spain in the championship game. (Spain with their own golden era squad that year too).

[SpursDynasty85]

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

Actually in a reverse sort of way that is a great example why Manu is not clearly better. Harden is an incredible player than can lead a team of support players to 50+ wins but on a well balanced championship team Klay Thompson could be considered the better sg for your team. I think you underrate Klay a bit because like Miller and Allen they were the prototype sg. They're best strengths were not playmaking but you need off the ball skills just as much to make teams run smoothly. They dominate without having their hands on the ball but could also do a number of things with the ball in their hands. Manu was reverse, more ball dominant but still great off the ball. Ultimately, Harden is looked at better because he has the sustainability to lead teams throughout the season as the #1. Manu was great in series and spurts but if Spurs asked him to play 38 mpg and lead the team as the leader we would've saw him break down eventually.

I think when Manu played he played BALLS out 100% and outplayed the best of them but if he had the responsibility of the others he would not have lasted playing that way. He would've slowed his game down and been more methodical and not be the Manu we know him to be or career shortened.

Hard to compare but, there were some really good SGs man. No diss to Manu, love that guy.

[cd98]

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

Nah Ray was a complete player. He was legit in his prime. He was the man on the Bucks and Sonics. It doesn’t make Manu less of a great player to give others their due.

[cutewizard]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

Agree!

[BD24]

Manu is nails, but #2?!
Come on, yall... be realistic.

you know how the homers are up here Killa.

I think top 5 is a valid arguement, but putting him above Kobe or Wade is complete nonsense tbh

[TheGreatYacht]

He's hardly a top 5 SG on the current team

All time?!?! You Mexicans should stick to stickball

[Nivek_ogre]

Replace Harden with prime Manu on last year's Rockets. Are they better or worse? Do they flame out in the playoffs again?

[gambit1990]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

[TheGreatYacht]

Replace Harden with prime Manu on last year's Rockets. Are they better or worse? Do they flame out in the playoffs again?

Manu isn't even in MVP Harden's class. Numbers don't lie.

[XDT76]

It might seems Harden is more durable than Manu but half the time he is slacking off defence whereas Manu gave his all on both side of the game. If the official did not give so many illegal to Harden, I wonder what will Rockets result will be?

[XDT76]

Great argument on Manu not being greatest SG on current team, Kareem cannot even make it as a role player on any current NBA team, no make it NCAA team. He must be worse than scrub.

[DAF86]

Nah Ray was a complete player. He was legit in his prime. He was the man on the Bucks and Sonics. It doesn’t make Manu less of a great player to give others their due.

Yeah, Allen was good. Manu was just better.

[Killakobe81]

you know how the homers are up here Killa.

I think top 5 is a valid arguement, but putting him above Kobe or Wade is complete nonsense tbh

Agree 100%.Top 5 a case can be made, based on the factors that many posted here. Dude is nails and more versatile than many SGs all-time. plus great intangibles.
But this would be akin to me arguing Worthy is greater than Dirk or Dominique because they are one dimensional scorers.
Worthy(like Manu) was more clutch, won more rings, sacrificed his scoring for the good of the team carried the Lakers in stretches including a Finals MVP and leading a le team in regular season scoring.
He had an incredible baseline spin and played way better defense than Dirk or Nique. All similar arguments made for Manu.
Switch Worthy with Nique and maybe has much better counting numbers, but he doesnt win as much. But could worthy have carried a team with teh right pieces around him to a Finals, not sure. Maybe. But because he never did
... He ain't greater than Dirk.
And he and Ni1que are debatable despite Nique never winning. Lakers had a choice and chose Worthy over Nique and i think made the right choice for the Lakers team becaus ehis game was a great fit. But Manu/Worthy never had to carry a franchise like Iverson, Dirk, nique, Mcgrady, Miller etc. They had Duncan/David and Magic/Kareem to do that heavy lifting.

Another comparison is McHale. Mchale who is hate had one of the best low-post game you could ever see, clutch, tough good defender and came off the bench early in his celts career for the good of the team. And was a key scorer for 3 le teams. But he never carried a team like Chuck, Malone, Dirk etc.

Should he be considered greater by celts fans just because he sacrificed, was dominant at what he did and was a versatile post player.

[lefty]

Better than porker ....

[diego]

They didn't even need Kobe to win. Team USA beat the crap out of Argentina in '03 when they were qualifying for the Olympics. What happened was the next year several of the key players that were on the '03 team decided not to play. Had they decided to play than Team USA would have easily won the Gold in '04.

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.