Bulls: Compare Jordan at age 34 to Lebron at age 34.

[DMC]

Didnt Shaq ring in Miami?

And Phil rang without Michael. In fact, he almost doubled his ring count after Mike.

[djohn2oo8]

And Phil rang without Michael. In fact, he almost doubled his ring count after Mike.

you asked what players that Phil coached after Michael, that rang without Phil. And it was Shaq. Oh and Phil never lost in the Finals with Jordan. That record was blemished after that though

[djohn2oo8]

Phil lost in the Finals even with Shaq

[Ghazi]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

f

[Ghazi]

but but but Jordan had such favorable cir stances

He'd just be another Vince Carter in today's NBA

[Pelicans78]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

f

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.

[djohn2oo8]

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.

[spurraider21]

damn, thats tosb kobe/prime harden bad

[DMC]

Phil lost in the Finals even with Shaq

Not sure what point your trying to make about Lebron and Michael.

[DMC]

This ing gold

[R. DeMurre]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

f

The comparison between them is a lot more complex than PER, c'mon now, and the PER difference in the playoffs is Jordan's 28.6 compared to LeBron's 28.3, so that's a pretty disingenuous use of a single stat. If anything, PER would argue that they're nearly identical.

Jordan's ORtg/Drtg in the playoffs is 118/104.
LeBron's is 116/102. So that's almost identical.

Jordan's BPM is 10.1.
Lebron's is 11.1.

Jordan averages more PPG, slightly more steals, fewer turnovers, a better FT%.
LeBron averages more assists, rebounds, & blocks, a better FG%.

Their 3pt% in the playoffs is identical. In the regular season, Lebron's % is slightly higher.

No matter how you look at it, it's a pretty close match up.







https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players

[Spurtacular]

Yup

KJ was very consistent

Marbury was terrible for team chemistry; but he's another one.

[Dirks_Finale]

This ing gold

Yeah, that's one round. How about Rodman/Laimbeer/Salley/Dumars knocking him on his ass every other trip down the floor. Then after Detroit came NYK Riley's ugly up the game crew of Mason/Starks/Harper, etc.

[Spurtacular]

This ing gold

Craig Ehlo was the 12th man on the 86 Rockets. He was like MJ's main rival practically in the early 90's East.

[Dirks_Finale]

Never really was a debate. Kobe's poor FG % overall in comparison to Jordan... and especially late in games + poor shot selection eliminated any need for that talk.

What killed MJ vs Kobe debates? Bryant's poor career finish. James is right on que to duplicate.

[Dirks_Finale]

Shouldn't be because Dirk played out of his mind in that postseason and Mavs were locked in.

But he should take crap for getting outscored by Jason freaking Terry in that series lol.

If he played better I still think Mavs oust them in 7 instead of 6.

He's crucified for losing to Dirk. James isn't above and beyond his own peers

[Dirks_Finale]

3 for 11 with 8 points in a pivotal game 5 finals game will do that to ya.

[Dirks_Finale]

Is that really the barometer here? LBJ taking multiple teams to the promise land so let's call him the GOAT?

By that same logic, we need to call Phil a better coach than Pop since he did it with two franchises.

And I don't think anyone besides Phil, himself, thinks he is better than Pop.

And talking about media and peer expectations from that era...Jordan was generally recognized by most everyone as being the best in the business. If you talked , he was going to drop 50 on you next time he saw you. Put you on a poster. Ask Dikembe how that went over for him lol. Pretty much the entire league was terrified of him and even the refs were in awe asking for autographs for the grandkids before the games tipped off.

And then we have a guy who declares himself to be the King and GOAT, gets fawned over by ESPN 24/7; yet goes out and gets disrespected regularly by role players like Deshawn Stevenson, Jason Terry and Draymond Green's of the world.

Not only is he not the best ever...but he is also very difficult to like as a human being despite the overall clean image.

But I'll give you this much, Lebron has not had good coaches. Give him Pop his whole career and that Finals record is probably 5-3 or something.

You don't have to slight MJ to credit Lebron.

Lebron never had a good coach. He was never part of a "system". He was dropped into the league as if he was constructed in a workshop to exacting specs, and people seem to think he didn't work for any of it. MJ wasn't heralded like James was, never labeled himself "The Chosen One", and so didn't have to live up to a bar set too high by himself and the media. MJ came around in an era where media hype was limited to a few broadcasters. James was bigger than life before he graduated HS. People remember MJ fondly, even if they lost to him, because he epitomized "don't quit" and was the consummate winner on and off the court. James brought his teammates along with him when he won, and when he left they basically sunk back into oblivion. This happened in Cleveland twice and in Miami once. James has been cursed/blessed by the narrative of getting a cursed city to the promised land. While he doesn't possess the sheer "kill your own father" mentality that MJ does, Lebron's mark has been undoubtedly his business a en and the ability to keep his nose clean even while playing at a high level year after year and being in the hottest part of the spotlight constantly.

We've never seen anyone like Lebron and we had never seen anyone like Mike. Lebron isn't like Mike, but Lebron is the greatest basketball player that's ever played the game if you consider all aspects of the game and his tenure and results on multiple teams. We'll never know if Mike could have taken another team to the Finals. He would never have left Chicago to play on one but he also had the fortune of having ownership that brought in players to compliment his game, and a coach that knew how to coach him. Lebron had Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt, T-Lue and Luke Walton. Perhaps a great coach couldn't coach Lebron, but we'll never know. Imagine Lebron with cerebral teammates instead of that he had that didn't even know the situation, and dribbled the clock out. Or a teammate that wouldn't choke two FTs in the most clutch moment. Lebron never had a stacked team other than Miami, but even in Miami they weren't built well rounded enough to be dominant. They were just all really good players, some past their primes and had the fortune to play in the East.

I think too much is said about Lebron being in the East and how he cannot compete in the West. The Lakers were middle of the playoff picture before Lebron got injured, and they quickly fell out of the race. Now they are struggling to regain the drive, but if they do regain it and reel off 5 or 6 in a row and sneak in, will anyone here really be surprised?

[DMC]

Is that really the barometer here? LBJ taking multiple teams to the promise land so let's call him the GOAT?

By that same logic, we need to call Phil a better coach than Pop since he did it with two franchises.

Start a Phil Jackson thread. Yes it matters that the Finals always had Lebron regardless which of the 3 teams he was on in the past 8 years. Yes it matters that he was the best player on that team. Yes it matters that he completely turned the fortunes around for that team, and when he left they regressed to nothing again.

And I don't think anyone besides Phil, himself, thinks he is better than Pop.

You have thread starting ability.

And talking about media and peer expectations from that era...Jordan was generally recognized by most everyone as being the best in the business. If you talked , he was going to drop 50 on you next time he saw you. Put you on a poster. Ask Dikembe how that went over for him lol. Pretty much the entire league was terrified of him and even the refs were in awe asking for autographs for the grandkids before the games tipped off.

Has nothing to do with the media and I didn't mention peer expectations.

And then we have a guy who declares himself to be the King and GOAT, gets fawned over by ESPN 24/7; yet goes out and gets disrespected regularly by role players like Deshawn Stevenson, Jason Terry and Draymond Green's of the world.

If you weren't so over the top with hyperbole you might have an outside chance at landing a point here or there. Based on your assessment Lebron shouldn't be in the top 20.

Not only is he not the best ever...but he is also very difficult to like as a human being despite the overall clean image.

The "beer" test. I don't use it.

But I'll give you this much, Lebron has not had good coaches. Give him Pop his whole career and that Finals record is probably 5-3 or something.

Every post you make your opinion value decreases.

Just say you're salty about Lebron instead of trying to show he's worthless.

[Dirks_Finale]

Sounds like you rely on stat sheets, Nick Wright and cherry picked youtube highlights.

Start a Phil Jackson thread. Yes it matters that the Finals always had Lebron regardless which of the 3 teams he was on in the past 8 years. Yes it matters that he was the best player on that team. Yes it matters that he completely turned the fortunes around for that team, and when he left they regressed to nothing again.

You have thread starting ability.

Has nothing to do with the media and I didn't mention peer expectations.

If you weren't so over the top with hyperbole you might have an outside chance at landing a point here or there. Based on your assessment Lebron shouldn't be in the top 20.

The "beer" test. I don't use it.

Every post you make your opinion value decreases.

Just say you're salty about Lebron instead of trying to show he's worthless.

[HarlemHeat37]

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.

Based on what?

Jordan's teams defensive rankings without the GOAT perimeter defender Scottie Pippen:

20th
11th
21st
18th

1994 Bulls without Jordan: 6th(after finishing 7th the previous season WITH Jordan)
1995 Bulls with Jordan only playing 17 games: 2nd

Serious propaganda, revisionist history and media bias..

Imagine being Scottie Pippen..nobody gives you any credit..he says LeBron is better than Jordan, but then mysteriously changes his feelings, I wonder what happened

[lefty]

Pointless debate

Larry Bird s on both of them

[AlexJones]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and cir stance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 les with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..

Been saying it for a while now, Phil Jackson is GOAT. Its amazing how he was able to manage so many cancerous personalities on his way to winning 11 les.. in the NFL it's about creating a system, in the NBA it's all about locker room..

[FrostKing]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and cir stance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 les with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..

6-0: none. Because no other guy retires after 3 and then returns 1.5 seasons later.

You are correct cir stances but not the ones you are thinking of. Pippen's '94 season gained him perspective on what it meant to lead and ultimately how difficult it truly was to be Jordan. So when he returned Pippen was all in and no longer held resentment

It was a perfect storm. For example Rodman burning nearly all his bridges right as MJ returned.

But it seems "so easy" in hindsight but if the 96 season of dominance didn't occur, maybe Shaq remains in the East. People forget there were serious doubts after the '95 playoff failure to Orlando. But in classic Jordan fashion he came back better and more determined.


You bring up an interesting point. Could guys like Pierce, McGrady, or healthy Grant Hill really not at least duplicate James' 3-6 Finals record?

[FrostKing]

Also - how has no one mentioned Pippen demanding out of the '94 NYK playoff game? 3-time defending champs. biggest rival and Scottie won't come off the bench after the time out. Kukoc drilled the shot.

Pippen's reputation took a huge hit.