Bertans unhappy with role

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Bertans will be packaged with another player and one of the picks this offseason.

[timvp]

You missed the point. Since Belinelli stood no chance of adequately defending Beasley anyway, Bertans was worth a shot. He at least offered greater size to hopefully bother him from the side/back when inevitably beat off the dribble.

?

1) Beasley was 2-for-11 in the final two games of the series. You wanted to give Bertans a shot to control a player who was already under control?

2) I've been a harsh critic of Belinelli's defense but it improved in the final 2 or 3 games of the series. Still not good but better than Bertans would have provided.

3) Bertans never played as a full-time wing all season. You wanted Pop to go to that against a team that's strength is wing athleticism? Uh, yeah, I disagree.

4) Bertans could have had a role if Millsap didn't eat his lunch every time up the court. I don't see how the coaches can be blamed for that. Going with more Poeltl was obviously the right move.

[Pavlov]

I refuse to sit back and watch the same scenario play out next season and it will as long as long as the wombat cuck is in pops back pocket

So what are you going to do if it does?

[DAF86]

Yeah, Bertans is unhappy he didn't get to play more point guard.

lol Patty Mills getting point guard minutes to begin.

Only ball handlers on the team are DeRozan and White. They should have staggered minutes, while Bertans played wing minutes over Mills and Belinelli.

[TD 21]

?

1) Beasley was 2-for-11 in the final two games of the series. You wanted to give Bertans a shot to control a player who was already under control?

2) I've been a harsh critic of Belinelli's defense but it improved in the final 2 or 3 games of the series. Still not good but better than Bertans would have provided.

3) Bertans never played as a full-time wing all season. You wanted Pop to go to that against a team that's strength is wing athleticism? Uh, yeah, I disagree.

4) Bertans could have had a role if Millsap didn't eat his lunch every time up the court. I don't see how the coaches can be blamed for that. Going with more Poeltl was obviously the right move.

Oh, this is the part where you become purposely obtuse so that you can apologize for your god . . .

1) Who said anything about games 6 and 7? When he was killing Belinelli beforehand, Craig became the starting 3 (as opposed to the backup 4, which was Bertans' only natural matchup), it became worth a shot.

2) You don't know that and again, so long as it was about equal (which is to say terrible), give me the significantly better shooter, who's long overdue for progression to the mean.

3) He started playing more as a nominal wing when Poeltl started, since that pushed Gay to the backup PF. Bertans is a better athlete than Belinelli.

4) That's not the argument, nor is it that Bertans on Beasley/excising Belinelli from the rotation was some magic elixir. The point is, it was more than worth a shot, but as usual the genius decided to play favorites.

[DAF86]

You are so damn annoying and misguided. Pop played 3 bench players, Beli, Mills, Gay. Bertans cannot play guard and was never contesting guard minutes. And Bertans was not going to outplay Gay. Nuggets played 3 bigs and Bertans couldn't guard or punish any of them. It's that simple and it has nothing to do with Beli or Mills.

Belinelli and Mills are wings, Bertans is a wing too. A better one at that too.

[rjv]

?

1) Beasley was 2-for-11 in the final two games of the series. You wanted to give Bertans a shot to control a player who was already under control?

2) I've been a harsh critic of Belinelli's defense but it improved in the final 2 or 3 games of the series. Still not good but better than Bertans would have provided.

3) Bertans never played as a full-time wing all season. You wanted Pop to go to that against a team that's strength is wing athleticism? Uh, yeah, I disagree.

4) Bertans could have had a role if Millsap didn't eat his lunch every time up the court. I don't see how the coaches can be blamed for that. Going with more Poeltl was obviously the right move.

spot on.

[DAF86]

1) Could have been something lost in translation. It reads as if he was talking in hypotheticals so I'm not sure it's fair to say he's unhappy with his role.

2) Nuggets were a bad matchup for him. Denver is one of the few teams left who play two physical bigs for a majority of the minutes. Bertans got bodied by their bigs to an embarrassing degree. Bertans trying to deal with Millsap was particularly pathetic.

3) Spur Fan somehow transforming this into a Mills/Belinelli related issue are being purposefully dishonest. When Bertans couldn't handle Denver's muscle, Poeltl is the player who started getting more minutes. Gay probably also got a few more minutes and was forced to defend Millsap when Bertans went full-blown Bonner and forgot to compete with the playoffs underway. Mills and Belinelli didn't play any more minutes because Bertans was getting trucked.

4) Bertans appears to be an important part of next year's team. With shooting becoming even more of an issue with the return of Murray, Bertans will be needed to stretch the floor. He's not going to play big minutes but he will play important minutes, much like this past season.

5) Bertans doesn't work as a starter. That's been proven, unfortunately. Considering he's a bench player who can't really be played when there are two physical bigs on the court, that's going to limit his playing time.

6) I think there's probably a better than 50/50 chance that this coming season will be his last with the Spurs. Bertans will probably get offers for more than he is worth as a free agent. With teams all wanting stretch bigs, someone is likely to pry him away. Considering he's a bad fit next to Poeltl (combined they don't rebound well enough defensively) and Poeltl is less likely to be overpaid, Bertans would be the one to let go.

7) Heading into the draft and free agency, the Spurs had to already be planning on bringing in players to compete with Bertans for minutes. If there's any fire to this smoke, this should make that even more of a priority.

How? I can give you Mills (although I would never have him as the main ball handler on any lineup), but Belinelli played the entire season at SF. That's Bertans position.

[RC_Drunkford]

so nobody here gon be calling him a diva for demanding more minutes?

[timvp]

Oh, this is the part where you become purposely obtuse so that you can apologize for your god . . .

1) Who said anything about games 6 and 7? When he was killing Belinelli beforehand, Craig became the starting 3 (as opposed to the backup 4, which was Bertans' only natural matchup), it became worth a shot.

2) You don't know that and again, so long as it was about equal (which is to say terrible), give me the significantly better shooter, who's long overdue for progression to the mean.

3) He started playing more as a nominal wing when Poeltl started, since that pushed Gay to the backup PF. Bertans is a better athlete than Belinelli.

4) That's not the argument, nor is it that Bertans on Beasley/excising Belinelli from the rotation was some magic elixir. The point is, it was more than worth a shot, but as usual the genius decided to play favorites.

1) It became worth a shot to slow a player who was 2-for-11?

2) As if Belinelli wasn't due?

3) Maybe nominal wing on offense but Gay still defended the quicker forward. And then had to defend Millsap because Bertans couldn't.

4) It was worth a shot to play Bertans as a full-time wing for the first time in his career?

[timvp]

How? I can give you Mills (although I would never have him as the main ball handler on any lineup), but Belinelli played the entire season at SF. That's Bertans position.

No he didn't. No he's not.

[Dex]

Oh, this is the part where you become purposely obtuse so that you can apologize for your god . . .

1) Who said anything about games 6 and 7? When he was killing Belinelli beforehand, Craig became the starting 3 (as opposed to the backup 4, which was Bertans' only natural matchup), it became worth a shot.

2) You don't know that and again, so long as it was about equal (which is to say terrible), give me the significantly better shooter, who's long overdue for progression to the mean.

3) He started playing more as a nominal wing when Poeltl started, since that pushed Gay to the backup PF. Bertans is a better athlete than Belinelli.

4) That's not the argument, nor is it that Bertans on Beasley/excising Belinelli from the rotation was some magic elixir. The point is, it was more than worth a shot, but as usual the genius decided to play favorites.

Hindsight bias is bias.

It's easy to say "well, maybe we should have thrown this guy out there and MAYBE he would have done better".

, maybe Lonnie could've helped with a few more minutes.

Maybe Cunningham could've gotten in front of Harris when he made that floater with the Spurs down 2 in the final minutes.

Maybe the Spurs would have won the series if Manu hadn't retired.

Maybe those are all bad ideas and pipe dreams.

You don't know how Bertans playing more would have helped, just like none of us do. Instead of losing Game 7 by four, maybe we lose by ten. It's easy to stab at possibilities and act like you are right.

I know some of you feel like I am a Pop apologist, but he doesn't have a crystal ball that tells the future. He does the best he can with the data and intuition he has on hand...and that got us a lot further this season than most people expected (cue the "we should have tanked" crowd)

[TD 21]

1) It became worth a shot to slow a player who was 2-for-11?

2) As if Belinelli wasn't due?

3) Maybe nominal wing on offense but Gay still defended the quicker forward. And then had to defend Millsap because Bertans couldn't.

4) It was worth a shot to play Bertans as a full-time wing for the first time in his career?

1). Again, it should have been tried sooner and even when Beasley cooled off, once again, Bertans' superior shooting/being due was still worth a shot.

2) Less so and not as good a shooter to begin with.

3) Not always. If it was a strong PF/big wing who could create their own shot, Bertans would often defend the SF.

4) What's with you and these rigid and outdated positional designations? The ideal defensive assignment for Bertans is spot up wings, like Craig. Whether that player is playing 3, 4, even 2, doesn't really matter.

Hindsight bias is bias.

I said this mid series, genius. Check my post history.

[DAF86]

This, in particular, bugged me too.

There are posters with a particular agenda (hint: there are some in this thread) who want to turn everything into a Mills/Beli bash-fest and act like that taints everything else the Spurs did right this season.

We get it. Mills is overpaid. Beli is a bad defender. This isn't necessarily a hot take.

That being said, they were both net positives over the course of the season. The bench was productive, and they both played significant minutes which put the Spurs in the position to make the playoffs.

Mills was injured and put a terrible shooting display against Denver, and Beli did pretty much what you would expect: he had some good games, had some bad games, and got abused on defense. They didn't bring Marco in to stop anybody on the perimeter...they brought him in to shoot, and he did so at a .421+ clip before wilting in Game 7 (on three shots in limited minutes).

The agenda pushing has been taken to a new level now that Denver got ousted.

Not as positive as Bertans. Actually no other Spur was as positive as Bertans.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

And guess who had the best rating on the playoffs too? Yeah, you got it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

[slick'81]

Relax guys lets see what bertans brings this season

[Pavlov]

lol Patty Mills getting point guard minutes to begin.

Only ball handlers on the team are DeRozan and White. They should have staggered minutes, while Bertans played wing minutes over Mills and Belinelli.

wing Bertans

He's not a wing. He'll never be a wing no matter where he plays.

[DAF86]

No he didn't.

So was Forbes the SF on those Mills, Belinelli, Forbes lineups Pop would use? Also, is there really a difference between SG and SF?

No he's not.

Who would you rather have Bertans defending, Millsap on the low block or Barton on the perimeter?

[Slippy]

so nobody here gon be calling him a diva for demanding more minutes?

Lol Or complain for winning ball.

[SpursRussia]

The problem with Mills and why it comes up in every thread, is that not only he is overpaid, he is also overplayed, and it will remain so next season. Instead of giving his minutes to young guys, Lonnie, Derrick or DJ his minutes will keep in mid 20s. , give them to Forbes, he does all the same things, but better, being much cheaper and younger, with room to grow.

Pop inexplicably pets this wombat, and even though his contract is tradable with sacrificing some assets, PATFO will not even consider such option and keep young players rotting on the bench. Giving Mills minutes over any other guard from the roster will not win any more games for the Spurs over the course of RS of playoffs, but will definitely stun the development of the younger players.

Yes, Mills might not have taken minutes from Davis this year, but it is the whole Pop's approach provokes this kind of talk, time to stop the madness and move on from these guys, this isn't 2014 anymore

[Dex]

Not as positive as Bertans. Actually no other Spur was as positive as Bertans.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

And guess who had the best rating on the playoffs too? Yeah, you got it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

According to those advanced stats (assuming that you are looking at Net Offensive Rating, which is really what matters)...the Spurs should have started Walker, Bertans, Pondexter, Cunningham, Motiejunas in the playoffs. And Aldridge and DeRozan are basically useless.

It's almost as if advanced stats don't tell the whole story...and there is no reason to play a guy more minutes if he can't hit the broadside of a barn.

[DAF86]

wing Bertans

He's not a wing. He'll never be a wing no matter where he plays.

Oh yeah? If he's not a wing, he's a bigman, right? What type of bigman tools does he provide?

On offense, is he better at posting up or shooting? Is he better at setting screens or putting the ball on the floor and passing?

On defense, is he better at playing postup defense or at moving his feet out on the perimeter? Does he provide bigman rebounding rate or perimeter player rebounding rate?

[Pavlov]

According to those advanced stats (assuming that you are looking at Net Offensive Rating, which is really what matters...the Spurs should have started Walker, Bertans, Pondexter, Cunningham, Motiejunas in the playoffs.

It's almost as if advanced stats don't tell the whole story...and there is no reason to play a guy more minutes if he can't hit the broadside of a barn.

This is how agendas work. Dude's gonna be retconning Bertans at the wing all summer.

[DAF86]

According to those advanced stats (assuming that you are looking at Net Offensive Rating, which is really what matters)...the Spurs should have started Walker, Bertans, Pondexter, Cunningham, Motiejunas in the playoffs. And Aldridge and DeRozan are basically useless.

It's almost as if advanced stats don't tell the whole story...and there is no reason to play a guy more minutes if he can't hit the broadside of a barn.

You were the one that brought "net positives" up, tbh.

FTR, Belinelli wasn't a net positive during the regular season.

[Pavlov]

Oh yeah? If he's not a wing, he's a bigman, right? What type of bigman tools does he provide?

On offense, is he better at posting up or shooting? Is he better at setting screens or putting the ball on the floor and passing?

On defense, is he better at playing postup defense or at moving his feet out on the perimeter? Does he provide bigman rebounding rate or perimeter player rebounding rate?

He's best used opening up the offense from the perimeter playing the 4. He's really not much good at anything else to matter.

Retcon away!

[slick'81]

You were the one that brought "net positives" up, tbh.

FTR, Belinelli wasn't a net positive during the regular season.

Hes trying hard though