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I'm not expecting a tirade from you or anything else really.I think you've gotten to used to arguing with Derp the way you expect this to result in me going off on a tirade
"Progressives" will be to blame and that's cool to know.
I think you've gotten to used to arguing with Derp the way you expect this to result in me going off on a tirade
I'm not expecting a tirade from you or anything else really.I think you've gotten to used to arguing with Derp the way you expect this to result in me going off on a tirade
"Progressives" will be to blame and that's cool to know.
So you just feel like letting me know "Progressives" are to blame just for the sake of it? That seems pretty pointless
No, you let me know that and I thanked you.So you just feel like letting me know "Progressives" are to blame just for the sake of it? That seems pretty pointless
It would be absolutely insane not to vote for Biden if he's the nominee just because he doesn't meet a progressive litmus.
If he's President, he nominates judges and won't go by a list of pre-approved Heritage judges. His VP (who would likely be someone to his left) is the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, reducing McConnell's power to block all progressive legislation. He would re-reverse Obama orders that Trump has made a point to revoke.
And best of all, Donald Trump goes back to being a blowhard social media troll instead of being the President of the United States, and he takes his re ed family with him. Any concern about Biden's legislative history from 25-50 years ago is easily countered by the fact that Trump has, and will, do much worse if he remains in power.
I fully understand the desire to challenge Biden and make him work for the nomination, and I don't think liberals should avoid doing so. But to go Bernie- and skip voting just because he's not your preferred Dem nominee, after learning in 2016 that Donald Trump can win and what that means for the country, would be mind-bogglingly stupid.
"If he's President, he nominates judges and won't go by a list of pre-approved Heritage judges"
any Biden nominess won't have a chance in the Repug Senate.
Most of Trash's judges comes from Catholic bag Leonard Leo's extreme right wing Federalist Society
A popular frontrunner that can be bullied further to the left with some angry tweets and pundit ing?
Don't this up, "progressives."
lol who am I kidding? They'll it up.
"Democrat" can be translated to " it up"
Biden would block or at least weaken progressive legislation even if McConnell wasn't able to, no different than how Obama took the public option healthcare plan that got through the house, chopped it up to make it Romneycare.
I'm also not convinced his VP would be to his left. As centrist as Hillary was, she managed to find a VP candidate even more centrist and less appealing to progressives than she was, and I don't see why Biden would be any different. As bad as Hillary was at appealing to progressives, she actually made an effort (albeit a superficial one). Biden has done everything he can to avoid major events and seems completely disinterested in addressing concerns progressives have about him (i.e. refusing to put forth a specific healthcare plan).
It also baffles me why the Bidens/Hillarys of the world don't receive one iota of blame for the fact they can't inspire enough turnout in a general election, especially when the opposing candidate is Donald ing Trump. Losing voters from your own party in the general election because they're butthurt over their primary candidate not winning is something presidential candidates have always had to face. Obama beat McCain in spite of the fact 25% of Hillary's primary voters in 2008 not only didn't vote for Obama but voted for McCain, a much larger number than the ~12% of Bernie voters who either stayed at home or voted for Trump in 2016 that Hillary supporters still won't stop ing about.
That's a worst case scenario I'm not convinced of, but still, better that than Trump nominees getting automatic approval.
Unless I'm misremembering, Obama's hand was forced on the public option. It wasn't going to pass. The resulting legislation was still much better than the status quo, and better than what we would have gotten from a Republican President.
This is another situation where the perceived far-leftness of Hillary played a role. I know you disagree about that perception, but I believe it was a strategic (and obviously incorrect) move to persuade conservative voters that a Clinton administration might not be the socialist nightmare that they believed it would be. Unfortunately Hillary was such a toxic candidate to conservatives that it really didn't matter who her VP choice was, and Kaine did nothing to inspire progressives. I don't think they'll try that approach again in 2020.I'm also not convinced his VP would be to his left. As centrist as Hillary was, she managed to find a VP candidate even more centrist and less appealing to progressives than she was, and I don't see why Biden would be any different.
I don't put a lot of stock in primary vs. general votes. Anyone can vote in a primary regardless of where their actual loyalties lie. The Democrat race was much more hotly contested than the Republican one, and Hillary was much closer to McCain in ideology than Bernie/Trump or Biden/Trump. I can sort of justify Hillary voters switching to McCain. I can't justify Bernie voters pulling the lever for Trump in 2016, and it's even harder to make that case in 2020.As bad as Hillary was at appealing to progressives, she actually made an effort (albeit a superficial one). Biden has done everything he can to avoid major events and seems completely disinterested in addressing concerns progressives have about him (i.e. refusing to put forth a specific healthcare plan)
It also baffles me why the Bidens/Hillarys of the world don't receive one iota of blame for the fact they can't inspire enough turnout in a general election, especially when the opposing candidate is Donald ing Trump. Losing voters from your own party in the general election because they're butthurt over their primary candidate not winning is something presidential candidates have always had to face. Obama beat McCain in spite of the fact 25% of Hillary's primary voters in 2008 not only didn't vote for Obama but voted for McCain, a much larger number than the ~12% of Bernie voters who either stayed at home or voted for Trump in 2016 that Hillary supporters still won't stop ing about.
And I think they do receive blame. Hillary is largely ignored by liberals now, and her approval rating is terrible - 36%, worse than it was in 2016... and while Biden may be leading with a plurality in the polls he is, by far, getting the most criticism of any candidate from the left. It seems like Biden is trying to avoid putting a target on his back while it's still early in the primary cycle. Hopefully we start to hear more specifics from him soon.
All of these criticisms are fair but they still wouldn't justify a Trump vote or non-vote in 2020.
Since Obama, you know, didn't lose and Trump won by ~100,000 votes in a few states in 2016 -- why wouldn't the failure of Bernie bros' be highlighted?
I'd also like to know how Obama personally scuttled the public option or whatever during the writing of the ACA.
Because Obama was able to win despite what you would call the "failure" of 25% of Clinton's primary voters.
It was Hillary's failure to get their voters. You keep acting like the Bernie Bros had some inherent duty to vote for Clinton.
Bernie did endorse her and campaign for her after she made certain concessions.
No duty, but I'm not sure why the Bros would side with Trump over their preferred candidate except for butthurt.
They don't have a duty to vote for Clinton. They preferred Trump.
Good for them.
It's been great for them, hasn't it?
It passed in the house and it got killed by Obama/Reid before passing in the senate. Would it have died anyway? Maybe. Did Obama make much of an effort to keep the public option in? Not really. He seemed perfectly content letting McConnell bully the Democrats, despite having ways around the filibuster.
So we're in agreement that trying to flip conservative voters instead of inspire progressives is a ty strategy. Great, just not sure what you're arguing with me about then.
If you're saying you think Biden can flip the same conservative voters who thought Hillary would be a socialist nightmare, that's delusional.
Agreed, and we also don't know where the true political allegiance of the Bernie Bros who didn't vote for Clinton was. There's polling that suggests a lot of them were conservatives (Nathan89 types). Either way, losing only 12% of your primary opponent's voters in the general is actually a low number. The Bernie Bros supported Hillary in the general at a better rate than what's typically seen.
I'd argue it's an easier case this time. I voted for Hillary in 2016 after voting for Bernie in the primary but I'm not going to automatically do it again. The establishment Democrats had their shot in 2016 and couldn't even win despite more or less rigging the primary process for their preferred candidate, it's time they step aside and stop exerting so much control over who gets nominated. If Biden wins a fair and square primary then I'd vote for him over Trump but if the primary process turns into another mangled abortion coat hanger via superdelegates who ignore voters in their state and/or the DNC interfering to help their preferred candidate I'll either stay home or even vote for Trump.
The 2018 midterms are also plenty of justification imo. The 2022 midterm senate map is potentially very favorable for the Democrats, but Biden will inspire the same ty midterm turnout that other moderate Democratic presidents have and it will lead to the Dems losing seats in both houses (one thing no one realizes is how bad the 2018 midterms would have been with Hillary as president. The Republicans could have easily reached a supermajority in the Senate with all of the races in states like Wisconsin and Ohio the Democrats managed to skate by on).
I'm not talking about blame they receive from the far left, I'm talking about blame they receive from the mainstream. CNN/MSNBC have spent a lot more time blaming Bernie Bros than they spent blaming Hillary for inspiring such ty voter turnout.
You also just explained why so many people hate Biden. He doesn't want to be specific about what his views/plans are because he wants to avoid putting a target on his back. He's more concerned with playing politics than he is with being transparent with voters. Why does anyone think that's someone who'd make a good president?
88% of them did support Clinton which is a higher number than what's typically seen, the idea that Bernie Bros didn't support Clinton is a narrative that's not backed up by the numbers. Getting 88% support from your primary opponent's voters in the general election is better than what most candidates typically get.
I don't think my argument has ever been that the strategy should be to flip conservative voters. My argument has been that progressives who wouldn't vote for Biden over Trump because they're not "inspired" are selfish, privileged assholes.
I agree about 2018, but I don't know if Hillary being a "moderate" Democrat President is what would have caused that. A widely disliked Democrat, maybe.The 2018 midterms are also plenty of justification imo. The 2022 midterm senate map is potentially very favorable for the Democrats, but Biden will inspire the same ty midterm turnout that other moderate Democratic presidents have and it will lead to the Dems losing seats in both houses (one thing no one realizes is how bad the 2018 midterms would have been with Hillary as president. The Republicans could have easily reached a supermajority in the Senate with all of the races in states like Wisconsin and Ohio the Democrats managed to skate by on).
Are there any examples of a non-moderate Democrat President in recent history who was successful in the midterms following his election? I would think an unpopular or polarizing Democrat would usually be worse for midterms than a moderate one, especially when most of the seats up for grabs would be help (or challenged) by moderate Democrats.
What would help matters is that in 2022, Biden would (hopefully) have a better economy than Obama had in 2010. Assuming the current POTUS doesn't find a way to that up by imposing tariffs or threatening nuclear war with Mexico on Twitter.
You also just explained why so many people hate Biden. He doesn't want to be specific about what his views/plans are because he wants to avoid putting a target on his back. He's more concerned with playing politics than he is with being transparent with voters. Why does anyone think that's someone who'd make a good president?
I wouldn't try to defend Biden or his approach, besides just knowing he's good enough to get my vote over Trump if it comes to that.
Then I guess I would be hesitant to call that a failure on Clinton's part. She got an unprecedented amount of support from those who had voted for her opponent, even after a contentious primary that favored her.
Exactly. The premise among many far left re s was that if the progressives stayed home in 2016 and we lost the general people would have no choice but to vote for Bernie in 2020 and its beginning to seem like that was like many Bernie Bro theories quite re ed.
At least speaking for myself, me not voting for Biden isn't because I'm not "inspired" by him, it's because I'm sick of how the Democratic party has stacked the deck against progressive candidates who actually want common sense legislation like Medicare-for-all in the name of "electability". People might disagree over whether or not it's good politics but it's bad public policy and it's definitely not Democracy.
Obama had the midterm problem too and I wouldn't characterize him as "widely disliked".
There haven't been examples of any non-moderate Democrat Presidents in recent history, period. Oddly enough, the Democrats' inability to keep control of congress in midterm elections when they're in power began in the 90s, the same time as when Democrats started nominating corporatists for president because of their "electability". The last Democratic president who picked up seats in either house during the midterms following his presidency was JFK.
Goes back to the fact we've already discussed that Republicans are going to view any Democrat president as unpopular/polarizing no matter what, all but assuring their turnout during midterms when a Democrat is in office. The only way the Democrats match that turnout during midterms is with a president who excites the base. Millennials simply don't show up as reliably as rural white trash voters do.
The 2010 midterms were exacerbated by the bad economy but the bigger problem was ty Democrat turnout while Republicans turned out because they viewed Obama as the antichrist (literally in certain cir stances). Less than 20% of all eligible millennials voted in 2010 and 2014 IIRC. 1994, 1998 and 2014 were all ty for Democrats regardless of economy.
Almost as re ed as thinking that an "electable centrist" is the best shot at beating Trump after an "electable centrist" lost to him in 2016.
Biden on May 1: "China is going to eat our lunch? Come on, man...They’re not compe ion for us."
Biden today: "We are in a compe ion with China.
We need to get tough with China. They are a serious challenge to us, and in some areas a real threat."
Promises to cure cancer if President
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