You're right, superstars do make other players look good. Pippen would be a first ballot HOF without MJ. One of the greatest defensive players of all-time and could probably lead a team far in a playoff run as the best player on that team, but probably would struggle to win a le.
As to Lakers needing a low-post all-star calibur player you are probably right, but almost all championship teams need that so there's really no where to go with that statement. Obviously the Lakers would not have won a le without Pau, but would they have won it with another all-star forward/center? probably, maybe they would've been a better team with a replacement for Pau.
I hesitated on D-Will, Amare, Melo, and Howard. TD too.... you have me a bit confused. Manu was the leader of SA this year so it seems they would be flipped... I'm confused as to if this list represents career or current state.
If it's current state, then I don't think TD and KG belong on that tier anymore.
My list is really at their "peak" meaning Nash, TD, KG were all superstars at one point in time. So i guess i should add Kidd and Ghill as well.
Dwill and Paul I'm assuming both healthy ...but i admit even healthy I was not absolutely sure on those 2 either ...
Don't really know yet, tbh, but doesn't look like it. What I'm aiming at is that he's done well and above average as a player before being paired with Kobe. Lakerfan s on him for not winning a playoff game, but he consistently took the Grizz to the playoffs when the West was pretty ing dominant. I mean, one of those times we swept them but the Spurs went on to win it all that year.
HoF qualifications go beyond the NBA. He has lead his NT to gold in the WC, and also the Euro championships. He's been categorically mentioned as one of the top PF in the league the past 3 or 4 years. Does having Phil and Kobe around help that perception? Probably. But Kobe and Phil also couldn't do either until Pau came around. So you have to recognize that the kid is an over the top talent. He was the difference between winning or losing for the Lakers. This season is further proof of that.
These terms (superstar, franchise) are very debatable. I'm talking about talent overall. Pau was 2nd team All-NBA this season, btw. And it probably reflects more what he did the past two seasons than this one, but he's undeniably a great talent, and tops in the league.
btw, Dirk was also All-NBA 2nd team this season...
Of course. It's moronic to take anything away from Kobe. Nearly every le was won by teams with at least 2 players in the HOF.
... but if we're trying to distinguish the teams and players that didn't follow the pattern of having a second all-star, then Kobe doesn't belong in that group due to Shaq's and Pau's existence on LA's championship rosters. I think it's a real testament to Hakeem, Duncan, and now Dirk's greatness to make it, where players like Malone, Charles, Reggie, KG, Lebron, Nash and other's couldn't on their own....
I'm not saying Dirk's better than Kobe or anything, but winning a ring in this fashion is incredibly impressive. To me, it catapults Dirk to 2nd PF all time over KG/Malone, and behind Duncan
My point was no doubt about it 1st team or 2nd team ...we all know Durant stole Dirk's spot ...and no way did Pau deserve 2nd this year tbh ...3rd is about right ...
I never said he wa snot very good but very good all star and superstar are still different ...
Let me say it this way this past regual season can you say that Pau DEFINITIVELY had a better year than (not counting team records which do matter of course but just saying ...) ?
1. Aldridge
2. amare
3. blake
4. Odom
5. david West
6. KG
7. Horford
8. Zbo
My point is superstars are not lumped with other all-stars they stand out ...if we talk about right now ...
Center: Howard is a superstar at center he is far and away the best ...
PG: Rose, Paul and Dwill (when healthy) to me are the best PG's
SG: Kobe, wade (Manu when healthy is in this class too since he is hurt a lot I have him top
SF: Lebron, Melo and Durant are the best
PF: Dirk is the best, he dominated Pau and beat Bosh in this year's playoffs to prove it ... I dont see anyone in his class at the position ...after that any of those other guys have a claim ...
Dirk has a ring now. Hehehehehe.
Killa, maybe not this season, but he definitely did have a better year last season than all those you list (including KG and Dirk, imo). I said it back in January that I saw Pau very tired. The guy isn't used to 3 deep playoffs runs + international play. It catches up to you eventually. Happened with Tim and KG too, for them it was injuries. Kobe is a physical beast, but not everybody is like that.
Kobe was/is one of the all time greats, but most of his career he was surrounding by all star caliber role players, not to mention Shaq. Dirk's championship is alot more impressive imo.
The way I see it, Duncan and Dirk are the only two PFs to carry a team to the promised land as THE guy.
Garnett>Dirk
LOL no. Duncan, Dirk, Barkley, Malone >>> KG.
Forget about Kobe for a second I just wanted to say that I love that a team built around a big won it yet again over Lebron and Wade. To me a great, great bigman is better than any guard or forward to build a team around. Dirk isn't a traditional big, but he's still a big man. I'd start a team with prime Olajuwon or Duncan. I'd wouldn't pick Jordan, Kobe, Lebron or any of those guys.
Something I would like to discuss also is whether or not Pau really was better than Dirk these last two or three seasons? Dirk has choked once or twice before in playoffs against Miami and Goldenstate, but since then I think it's mainly been his teammates that have let him down as most of the time he has played his ass off since then. Was Pau really the best PF from the time that TD declined up to now or was it really Nowitzki? So from 2009 until now who has been better between Dirk and Pau?
Dirk and Pau isn't even a discussion.
All I care about is that now my team has a championship and you can say that Dirk is absolutely a #1 option and can be the best player on a le team. Where he places in the Top 10, 20, 30, 40, whatever...I don't care. My team has a le now, and Dirk was the best player on it.
I'd say most people had Pau ahead of Dirk these last few seasons as the number 1 PF in the NBA. I'd like to see them go back and actually take a better look at that and see if they still say the same thing.
I know, I wasn't serious in either claim.
You pay superstar money to the guy that carries you to the victory the last 5 minutes of the game. Dirk does that, KG never even thought about doing it. He's 34 now and still playing hot potato with the ball in a tight game. Malone did that as well tbh. Barkley didn't, he had the heart, but maybe not enough work ethic to work in his weaknesses.
My ranking:
Duncan
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
KG
McHale
I'd like to say a thing about Pe , Hayes, McAdo, Dave DeBuschree (spelled correctly?). But I just don't much about their game to be able to say so.
O'neal wouldn't carry any team to victory in the last 5 minutes of a game, yet he's the most dominant player I've ever seen.
yeah yeah Manu > Dirk. Move along, nothing to see here.
Thanks for conceding my point.
Kevin McHale actually said the same thing about KG. He said a couple of seasons ago that you can put the ball in Tim Duncan or Manu's hands in the last 5 minutes of the game and they can win you the game. He said KG doesn't do that so that is one of the reasons he traded him. As great as KG was he wasn't really a closer. Have people already forgotten about Lebron in the 4th quarter of the finals? KG and Lebron are similar closers. KG might be the Lebron of big men. Great stats and team player, but wasn't that great at closing out a game.
I remember one game against the Spurs were the Wolves needed one shot to win the game and KG passed the ball to Dean Garrett for a jump shot to win the game. DEAN GARRETT. Think about that. When KG had his best success is when he had closers like Sprewell and Sam Cassell on the team. Same thing in Boston with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.
edit : lol I just realized that Lebron said the Heat followed the example of the Celtics in 2008 when they decided to form the super team. Maybe Lebron wanted the KG role since they are similar players when it comes to closing out games.
Last edited by Ice009; 06-13-2011 at 04:33 AM.
Manu > KG is the new Manu > Dirk people.
Great point that has conveniently gone unnoticed. Dirk is an average defender and rebounder, to say he completely carried this team on his back is pretty re ed. He carried them offensively which is obviously huge, but its not all that goes into winning a game. For that same reason it'd be stupid to rank him anywhere in the Top 20 in an all-time list or ahead of TD and KG in a PF list. He's definitely a Top 10 maybe even Top 5 offensive player of all-time though.
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