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  1. #76
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    Peter King Dismisses Torture Report As Just People In 'Awkward Positions'




    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...+%28TPMNews%29

    Thanks, all y'all Repug voters. The Loopy Gohmert of New York!



  2. #77
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    Taibbi

    10 Craziest Things in the Senate Report on Torture

    Regarding the rectal tube, if you place it and open up the IV tubing, the flow will self regulate, sloshing up the large intestines… What I infer is that you get a tube up as far as you can, then open the IV wide. No need to squeeze the bag – let gravity do the work.

    Majid Khan's "lunch tray," consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts, and raisins, was "pureed" and rectally infused.


    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz3LXHTzZrX

    US military/CIA torturers "just following orders" would have followed Nazi orders (noGodwin!)


    Last edited by boutons_deux; 12-10-2014 at 05:19 PM.

  3. #78
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Context matters.
    ...the majority left out something critical to understanding the program: context.

    The detention and interrogation program was formulated in the aftermath of the murders of close to 3,000 people on 9/11. This was a time when:

    • We had evidence that al Qaeda was planning a second wave of attacks on the U.S.

    • We had certain knowledge that bin Laden had met with Pakistani nuclear scientists and wanted nuclear weapons.

    • We had reports that nuclear weapons were being smuggled into New York City.

    • We had hard evidence that al Qaeda was trying to manufacture anthrax.

    It felt like the classic “ticking time bomb” scenario—every single day.

    In this atmosphere, time was of the essence and the CIA felt a deep responsibility to ensure that an attack like 9/11 would never happen again. We designed the detention and interrogation programs at a time when “relationship building” was not working with brutal killers who did not hesitate to behead innocents. These detainees had received highly effective counter-interrogation training while in al Qaeda training camps. And yet it was clear they possessed information that could disrupt plots and save American lives.

    The Senate committee’s report says that the CIA at that point had little experience or expertise in capture, detention or interrogation of terrorists. We agree. But we were charged by the president with doing these things in emergency cir stances—at a time when there was no respite from threat and no luxury of time to act. Our hope is that no one ever has to face such cir stances again.

    The Senate committee’s report ignores this context.

    The committee also failed to make clear that the CIA was not acting alone in carrying out the interrogation program. Throughout the process, there was extensive consultation with the national security adviser, deputy national security adviser, White House counsel, and the Justice Department.

    The president approved the program. The attorney general deemed it legal.

    The CIA went to the attorney general for legal rulings four times—and the agency stopped the program twice to ensure that the Justice Department still saw it as consistent with U.S. policy, law and our treaty obligations. The CIA sought guidance and reaffirmation of the program from senior administration policy makers at least four times.

    We relied on their policy and legal judgments. We deceived no one.

    The CIA reported any allegations of abuse to the Senate-confirmed inspector general and the Justice Department. CIA senior leadership forwarded nearly 20 cases to the Justice Department, and career Justice officials decided that only one of these cases—unrelated to the formal interrogation program—merited prosecution. That person received a prison term.

    The CIA briefed Congress approximately 30 times. Initially, at presidential direction the briefings were restricted to the so-called Gang of Eight of top congressional leaders—a limitation permitted under covert-action laws. The briefings were detailed and graphic and drew reactions that ranged from approval to no objection. The briefings held nothing back.

    Congress’s view in those days was very different from today. In a briefing to the Senate Intelligence Committee after the capture of KSM in 2003, committee members made clear that they wanted the CIA to be extremely aggressive in learning what KSM knew about additional plots. One senator leaned forward and forcefully asked: “Do you have all the authorities you need to do what you need to do?”

    In September 2006, at the strong urging of the CIA, the administration decided to brief full committee and staff directors on the interrogation program. As part of this, the CIA sought to enter into a serious dialogue with the oversight committees, hoping to build a consensus on a way forward acceptable to the committee majority and minority and to the congressional and executive branches. The committees missed a chance to help shape the program—they couldn’t reach a consensus. The executive branch was left to proceed alone, merely keeping the committees informed.

    How did the committee report get these things so wrong? Astonishingly, the staff avoided interviewing any of us who had been involved in establishing or running the program, the first time a supposedly comprehensive Senate Select Committee on Intelligence study has been carried out in this way.

    The excuse given by majority senators is that CIA officers were under investigation by the Justice Department and therefore could not be made available. This is nonsense. The investigations referred to were completed in 2011 and 2012 and applied only to certain officers. They never applied to six former CIA directors and deputy directors, all of whom could have added firsthand truth to the study. Yet a press account indicates that the committee staff did see fit to interview at least one attorney for a terrorist at Guantanamo Bay.

    We can only conclude that the committee members or staff did not want to risk having to deal with data that did not fit their construct. Which is another reason why the study is so flawed. What went on in preparing the report is clear: The staff picked up the signal at the outset that this study was to have a certain outcome, especially with respect to the question of whether the interrogation program produced intelligence that helped stop terrorists. The staff members then “cherry picked” their way through six million pages of do ents, ignoring some data and highlighting others, to construct their argument against the program’s effectiveness.

    In the intelligence profession, that is called politicization.
    Calling something torture doesn't make it torture.

    Can anyone in here point to a legal finding that what the U.S. did was, indeed, torture?

  4. #79
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    Personally I haven't found McCain relevant since his pathetic run at the Presidency.
    like we should give a as to what you 'find' means for who actually wields power in the senate.

    He has been making waves since being named the head of the Armed Services Committee for a bout a month. For the last couple of years he has been one of the few people in congress that has been able to get legislation passed reaching to both parties for support; that in a congress famous for inactivity. All you saying this means is you have not been paying attention.

  5. #80
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Context matters.

    Calling something torture doesn't make it torture.

    Can anyone in here point to a legal finding that what the U.S. did was, indeed, torture?
    Well, when the Japanese waterboarded Americans in WWII, they were tried and convicted for war crimes.

    And court-martialed US soldiers who did it to Filipinos and Vietnamese.

    US precedent says its torture.

    But you knew all this. You just try to deny it.

  6. #81
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Well, when the Japanese waterboarded Americans in WWII, they were tried and convicted for war crimes.

    And court-martialed US soldiers who did it to Filipinos and Vietnamese.

    US precedent says its torture.

    But you knew all this. You just try to deny it.
    Enhanced Interrogation Waterboarding =/= Japanese Waterboarding. Just because they share a name doesn't make them the same thing.

  7. #82
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Enhanced Interrogation Waterboarding =/= Japanese Waterboarding. Just because they share a name doesn't make them the same thing.
    Oh, how is it different?

    Cite all the cases and all the differences and why it makes what the CIA did OK.

    Include the court martials of US soldiers while you're at it. You left those out for some reason.

  8. #83
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Oh, how is it different?

    Cite all the cases and all the differences and why it makes what the CIA did OK.

    Include the court martials of US soldiers while you're at it. You left those out for some reason.
    Well, the two significant differences is that 1) Japanese waterboarding often resulted in permanent injury and death whereas, zero people were injured or died at the hands of CIA waterboarders; and 2) Japanese were tried and convicted of war crimes for their application of waterboarding; whereas, people like you have spent the better part of the past 12 years whining about what the CIA did being a war crimes and, yet, can't seem to find a competent court with jurisdiction to bring charges.

    Those are the two that matter.

  9. #84
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    lol you're saying it's not torture because it wasn't prosecuted as a war crime in this case?

    That means nothing.

    And you didn't describe the differences in the specifically prosecuted Japanese crimes and you are afraid to talk about the court martials.

    Your silence says it all.

    Thank you for your cowardice, chicken hawk.

  10. #85
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    Anybody who thinks it's a good thing the CIA tortured all those people.......and I know there are lots of them.....i can't even listen to the radio in the car because I hear so many of them......you're what's wrong with this world. You're the same exact people who would have supported every horrible evil thing ever done by a government. If you were in the middle east and muslim, you'd be signing up to be a member of ISIS. If you lived in nazi germany you'd go to all of Hitler's rallies. If you lived in the middle ages you'd be all for burning witches at the stake.

    What the CIA did is not excusable. It's bull , and the government knows it. The government lies. It especially lies about the war on terror. And you'd be a fool to believe them.

    It's called moral clarity. Get some.

  11. #86
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Anybody who thinks it's a good thing the CIA tortured all those people.......and I know there are lots of them.....i can't even listen to the radio in the car because I hear so many of them......you're what's wrong with this world. You're the same exact people who would have supported every horrible evil thing ever done by a government. If you were in the middle east and muslim, you'd be signing up to be a member of ISIS. If you lived in nazi germany you'd go to all of Hitler's rallies. If you lived in the middle ages you'd be all for burning witches at the stake.

    What the CIA did is not excusable. It's bull , and the government knows it. The government lies. It especially lies about the war on terror. And you'd be a fool to believe them.

    It's called moral clarity. Get some.
    I think there's a self-delusion aspect to it too on some of those people... still inexcusable, but fairly sad.

  12. #87
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I am pretty confident that the random innocent goat herders have been culled out and sent back over the years.
    Easy for you to say. You ain't been in Gitmo for a few years for no good reason and tortured into the bargain.

  13. #88
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Well, this is where the intelligence community says you're wrong.
    Where please? Your last source was bloviation and bs.

  14. #89
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    A statement on torture by John McCain is the same as a statement on gun violence by Gabby Giffords. Understandably biased.
    kinda like saying we shouldn't listen to Jacqui Saburido related to drunk driving.

    even if John McCain is biased against torture, qua torture victim, it is entirely possible, even very probable, his honor and morals already precluded it. the destigmatization of torture post 9/11 has put the scruple against it -- part of conventional morality -- in the shade.

  15. #90
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Where please? Your last source was bloviation and bs.
    And, to you, they all will be so, what's the point?

  16. #91
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    kinda like saying we shouldn't listen to Jacqui Saburido related to drunk driving.

    even if John McCain is biased against torture, qua torture victim, it is entirely possible, even very probable, his honor and morals already precluded it. the destigmatization of torture post 9/11 has put the scruple against it -- part of conventional morality -- in the shade.
    That you, and others, are unwilling to put the enhanced interrogation techniques into the context of what was going on when they were employed demonstrates your unwillingness to even consider the tactics were a valuable tool that prevented many other deaths.

    Immediately after 9/11, there was a fear the terrorists were going to execute a second wave.

    Congress and the Administration put tremendous pressure on the Intelligence community to uncover and stop subsequent attacks.

    The Intelligence Community developed a plan that they then shared with the White House and Congress, asking for a legal opinion on the legality and cons utionality of their plan.

    That opinion was given -- with a bright line description of where they would cross the line of both legality and cons utionality.

    The Intelligence community went to work.

    They kept the Congress fully informed of the tactics they were using and people on whom they were using them. (Including Dianne Feinstein)

    Actionable intelligence was discerned and attacks were thwarted.

    As a bonus, they obtained the name of a person that eventually led them to Osama bin Laden.

    I'm okay with it. I'm not sure why you keep screaming "torture." Would I want to have any that done to me? No. But, the fact remains, while people keep screaming "torture" and "war crimes," no one is taking any concrete steps to bring the torturers and war criminals to justice. Why? Because they know what was done was neither torture nor a war crime. They also know they were perfectly fine with it all when it was going on, including Democrat members of Congress that were kept fully informed o fthe program.

    We're confronted with an enemy that has no official state and who kills with impunity, sawing off the heads of their hostages and broadcasting the horror for the whole world to see. I don't believe our conducting some uncomfortable techniques on al Qaeda or Taliban members, with the intent of extracting information, made them any more brutal and unconscionable than they already were and continue to be.

  17. #92
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    In his view, torture is worse than killing people, because it doesn’t work, which was obvious before the release of the Senate report and further confirmed by it. A person being tortured will tell you anything you want to hear, even if it’s all lies, and a lot of the victims had to lie because they didn’t have valuable information to begin with.


    “It doesn’t matter what tactics you use, you’re not going to get information if people don’t know anything and most of these Gomers didn’t know ,” he said. “Who in the leadership was stupid enough to think they would? Why would these guys have detailed knowledge about plans and targeting? Even if they were hard-core jihadis who took part in operations, that doesn’t mean they would have knowledge of upcoming attacks.”


    Once the U.S. went into “the business of interrogation,” U.S. allies in the “war on terror” were encouraged to hand over suspects — and they did, no matter how flimsy the evidence. Lots of others were turned in by bounty hunters. And of course we know that a lot of people falsely dimed out their personal enemies or political rivals.
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...orture-report/

  18. #93
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    That you, and others, are unwilling to put the enhanced interrogation techniques into the context of what was going on when they were employed demonstrates your unwillingness to even consider the tactics were a valuable tool that prevented many other deaths.
    Assumed and claimed, but this hasn't been shown.


    They kept the Congress fully informed of the tactics they were using and people on whom they were using them. (Including Dianne Feinstein)
    They did not. The very existence of this report owes partly to the fact that the CIA wasn't upfront with Congress.

    Actionable intelligence was discerned and attacks were thwarted.
    Prove it.

    I'm okay with it. I'm not sure why you keep screaming "torture." Would I want to have any that done to me? No. But, the fact remains, while people keep screaming "torture" and "war crimes," no one is taking any concrete steps to bring the torturers and war criminals to justice. Why? Because they know what was done was neither torture nor a war crime. They also know they were perfectly fine with it all when it was going on, including Democrat members of Congress that were kept fully informed o fthe program.
    Fiat reasoning and obfuscation. What we did fits commonly accepted and legally agreed to definitions of torture and war crimes.

    We're confronted with an enemy that has no official state and who kills with impunity, sawing off the heads of their hostages and broadcasting the horror for the whole world to see. I don't believe our conducting some uncomfortable techniques on al Qaeda or Taliban members, with the intent of extracting information, made them any more brutal and unconscionable than they already were and continue to be.
    Morality is not relative. The depravity of one's adversary does not mitigate one's own evil conduct.

    Also, not everyone who was subjected to torture was Al Qaeda and Taliban, not by a long shot.

  19. #94
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Torture is immoral and illegal. It's an abuse of power and honor. It might be the exemplary case of inhumanity.

  20. #95
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It’s official: torture doesn’t work. Waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11, did not in fact “produce the intelligence that allowed us to get Osama bin Laden," as former Vice President Cheney asserted in 2011. Those are among the central findings of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA interrogation and detention after 9/11.


    The report’s executive summary is expected to be released Tuesday. After reviewing thousands of the CIA’s own do ents, the committee has concluded that torture was ineffective as an intelligence-gathering technique. Torture produced little information of value, and what little it did produce could’ve been gained through humane, legal methods that uphold American ideals.


    I had long since come to that conclusion myself. As special agent in charge of the criminal investigation task force with investigators and intelligence personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan, and Iraq, I was privy to the information provided by Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I was aware of no valuable information that came from waterboarding. And the Senate Intelligence Committee—which had access to all CIA do ents related to the “enhanced interrogation” program—has concluded that abusive techniques didn’t help the hunt for Bin Laden. Cheney’s claim that the frequent waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed “produced phenomenal results for us" is simply false.

  21. #96
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Mark Fallon served as an interrogator for more than 30 years, including as a Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent and within the Department of Homeland Security, as the assistant director for training of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center

  22. #97
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    In his view, torture is worse than killing people, because it doesn’t work, which was obvious before the release of the Senate report and further confirmed by it. A person being tortured will tell you anything you want to hear, even if it’s all lies, and a lot of the victims had to lie because they didn’t have valuable information to begin with.
    But, according to anyone who had direct knowledge of the events -- including Democrat CIA Director Leon Panetta, the enhanced interrogation techniques did work to identify and thwart further terrorist attacks after 9/11.

    “It doesn’t matter what tactics you use, you’re not going to get information if people don’t know anything and most of these Gomers didn’t know ,” he said. “Who in the leadership was stupid enough to think they would? Why would these guys have detailed knowledge about plans and targeting? Even if they were hard-core jihadis who took part in operations, that doesn’t mean they would have knowledge of upcoming attacks.”
    Again, they did obtain actionable intelligence. And, as for "Gomers," every significant person of interest is surrounded by "Gomers," Osama bin Laden was located by using these techniques to identify a "Gomer" who then led the U.S. to the compound where bin Laden was found.

    Once the U.S. went into “the business of interrogation,” U.S. allies in the “war on terror” were encouraged to hand over suspects — and they did, no matter how flimsy the evidence. Lots of others were turned in by bounty hunters. And of course we know that a lot of people falsely dimed out their personal enemies or political rivals.
    You're now conflating detention with enhanced interrogation techniques. To my knowledge, no one was subjected to the enhanced interrogation techniques that U.S. authorities did not believe possessed information they needed to obtain.

  23. #98
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The CIA imprisoned and mistreated two individuals who were entirely innocent, even by the Agency's own warped standards. Why? To be used as leverage against family members. One of them, Nazar Ali, was mentally disabled. The CIA sent videos to Ali's family showing him weeping under interrogation.

  24. #99
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    But, according to anyone who had direct knowledge of the events -- including Democrat CIA Director Leon Panetta, the enhanced interrogation techniques did work to identify and thwart further terrorist attacks after 9/11.
    often claimed, but never shown. US Senators who reviewed the program -- and were briefed in detail on it-- do not think so.

    Again, they did obtain actionable intelligence. And, as for "Gomers," every significant person of interest is surrounded by "Gomers," Osama bin Laden was located by using these techniques to identify a "Gomer" who then led the U.S. to the compound where bin Laden was found.
    does not prove that no other means effective means to get the same information existed. it does not prove torture necessary, nor does tactical expedience justify torture. it's immoral, illegal and inhumane according to laws and conventions the US has already agreed to.


    You're now conflating detention with enhanced interrogation techniques.
    it's hard to think of any torture worse than being jailed unjustly, indefinitely and abusively.

    To my knowledge, no one was subjected to the enhanced interrogation techniques that U.S. authorities did not believe possessed information they needed to obtain.
    read the ing report. did you catch the part about detaining innocent family members to put pressure on bad guys?
    Last edited by Winehole23; 12-11-2014 at 10:19 AM.

  25. #100
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    did you read the part about torturing our own informants? surely we did so in good faith, but does that excuse it?

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