Spurs: Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...

[da_suns_fan]

Elgin Baylor had more "big games" than Lebron, thus he's a better player.

- DSF's re logic.

Nonsense. Lebron is already number one in 30/7/7 games and hes only halfway done in his career:

1 LeBron James F 113
2 Michael Jordan* G 79
3 Larry Bird* F 55
4 Kobe Bryant G 46
5 Magic Johnson* G 43

See? Lebron doesnt need excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

[da_suns_fan]

Spurs fans top EXCUSES as to why Duncan has so few "big games"

1) Pace
2) No good point guard
3) He plays defense
4) He doesnt "stat pad"
5) He doesnt CARE about regular season

I'd say number one is a "legitimate" argument but the rest are just laughably stupid.

[midnightpulp]

I reject the narrative that Duncan shouldnt be compared to Shaq when they played in the same era and produced the same type of stats (points, rebounds, blocks etc).

I reject the narrative that Duncan's numbers shouldnt count because he didnt play with a great point guard (poor Tony Parker) and Barkley did (Mo who?).

I understand that a slower pace will lead to less rebounds/scoring opportunities, but the fact still remains that Duncan had DRAMATICALLY less big games than the other four. If you want to attribute that to "pace", so be it. But Shaq didnt need that excuse and he played in the same era.

(Mo who?)

I hope you were being ironic with that comment. If you don't who Mo Cheeks is, then , you don't know about the NBA.

And you're strawmanning something fierce. Never did I even imply Duncan's stats "shouldn't count" because he played with Tony Parker. I simply explained how never playing with a pass first PG affected Duncan's scoring. It is a team game after all. That said, I wouldn't trade the Duncan dictated offense in the Spurs' championship years for an offense being run by a ball dominant Stockton type PG. While Duncan's scoring average might go up, the Spurs shooters (an important component to their offense) would be less involved.

I'm not rejecting a Shaq vs. Duncan comparison. Shaq was a more dominant offensive player. What more do you want me to say?

[da_suns_fan]

Barkley/Malone fans seem to never grasp this point.

Kevin Love will likely finish with many more "big games" than KG. But only an idiot would say Kevin Love is anywhere near the level of player KG is/was. That goes for David Lee, too. He'll probably finish with 20 times more "big games" than someone like Marc Gasol (yeah, I know Gasol is overrated, as you've discussed), but considering Gasol's responsibility and defensive presence, he's a better player than Lee.

Um...no.

Number of 20 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist, 2 block games:

1 Kevin Garnett F 114
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 101
3 Shaquille O'Neal C 88

KG was never "Great" at one category but he was "really good" at all categories. Hes easily the most versatile big man ever to play the game. Kevin Love's forte is rebound and hes a "pretty good" scorer but he'll never come close to KG.

See how easy it is (Lebron, KG etc) to find a "niche" in which a player is number one when that player is TRULY great?

Interesting that KG doesnt need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan even though he played most of his career in the 2000s (as opposed to the stat-padding 80s), with no dominant point guard etc.

[midnightpulp]

Nonsense. Lebron is already number one in 30/7/7 games and hes only halfway done in his career:



See? Lebron doesnt need excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Nice cherry pick. How about 40-15-4blk games? Or 35-10blk games? "Big game" is relative.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Why? Because those stats are "skewed?"

Same with the 80's compared to now, Champ.

[HarlemHeat37]

Btw, I do agree that Barkley was a better offensive player than Duncan..there aren't many players that are better offensively than Barkley..

The argument that he's a better overall player or better playoff performer is asinine, though..ignoring Duncan's defensive responsibility is foolish, tbh..

[TDfan2007]

The premise of comparison in this thread is purely pts/rbs/ast, and you're comparing players who played in different generations, and in the case of Shaq vs. Timmy, different teams with different levels of pace and offensive philosophy. You and Deuce should get a room...

Anyway, if you want to look at stats like PER and win shares, which account for things like pace, then feel free to come and tell me that Tim Duncan hasn't had many great games/great playoff series in relation to all time greats. I won't hold my breath.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Timmy could have posted close to 30 ppg in his prime if he felt like chucking.

As for the whole Barkley-Timmy comparison, which I think is really what you're trying to get at here, I have no problem with you telling me that he's a better scorer than Duncan, because he probably was. However, Duncan was the better defender, passer, off-ball player, which more than makes up for the slight advantage that Barkley had offensively.

[da_suns_fan]

Nice cherry pick. How about 40-15-4blk games? Or 35-10blk games? "Big game" is relative.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Why? Because those stats are "skewed?"

Same with the 80's compared to now, Champ.

Sure: Number of 40 point, 15 rebound, 4 block games:

1 Patrick Ewing* C 5
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 4
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 3
4 Dwight Howard C 2

Wheres Tim Duncan? Answer: ZERO!!!!

Number of 35 point, 10 blocks games:

1 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 3
2 David Robinson* C 2

Duncan: Goose egg.

[DMC]

You're revisiting this thread way too often to not be butthurt about something Duncan did to you or your team. No good troll returns to his vomit this often.

[da_suns_fan]

The premise of comparison in this thread is purely pts/rbs/ast, and you're comparing players who played in different generations, and in the case of Shaq vs. Timmy, different teams with different levels of pace and offensive philosophy. You and Deuce should get a room...

Anyway, if you want to look at stats like PER and win shares, which account for things like pace, then feel free to come and tell me that Tim Duncan hasn't had many great games/great playoff series in relation to all time greats. I won't hold my breath.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Timmy could have posted close to 30 ppg in his prime if he felt like chucking.

As for the whole Barkley-Timmy comparison, which I think is really what you're trying to get at here, I have no problem with you telling me that he's a better scorer than Duncan, because he probably was. However, Duncan was the better defender, passer, off-ball player, which more than makes up for the slight advantage that Barkley had offensively.

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

[TDfan2007]

Tim Duncan was never the best scorer in the league, and never the best rebounder. His strength was that he was a Swiss army knife kind of player who could do everything well. Post up, shoot from the outside, take guys off the dribble, pass, block shots, play solid man defense, hedge pick and rolls almost perfectly, ambidextrous in the paint. His only weakness was FT shooting.

Having said that, Timmy is a top 4 low post player along with Kareem, Hakeem, and McHale.

[Cry Havoc]

The point of this thread was Duncan hasnt had many "big games". Even in Harlem Heats queries, all of the results produce values of "2 times", "3 times" etc.

These are called "outliers" or "anomalies". Thats why theres so few. Shaq/Barkley etc have so many more 30/15 games than Duncan because they were so much more dominant/consistent than Duncan night after night.

Likewise Duncan's "Versatility" is a joke compared to KG (who blows away everyone in the points, rebounds, blocks and assists) but he wont show up in any of Harlem Heats results because he played in so few playoff games.

Regular season ejaculation thread.

[Cry Havoc]

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

Because pace of game doesn't matter.

You're dumb.

[midnightpulp]

Um...no.

Number of 20 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist, 2 block games:



KG was never "Great" at one category but he was "really good" at all categories. Hes easily the most versatile big man ever to play the game. Kevin Love's forte is rebound and hes a "pretty good" scorer but he'll never come close to KG.

See how easy it is (Lebron, KG etc) to find a "niche" in which a player is number one when that player is TRULY great?

Interesting that KG doesnt need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan even though he played most of his career in the 2000s (as opposed to the stat-padding 80s), with no dominant point guard etc.

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, mother er?

[TDfan2007]

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

"he averages more assists, so he's a better passer."

you want to compare rebounds, look at rebound RATE, which takes pace into account. Passing is a more subjective quality, in that stats can be deceiving. You only get an assist if the guy makes a shot, and the NBA doesn't track those hockey assists, which Timmy had loads off after kicking the ball out of double teams.

[TDfan2007]

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, mother er?

Either he doesn't get it, or he's trolling. Either way you can't argue a point much better than this.

[midnightpulp]

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, mother er?

Let's pop scoring up to 25.

25, 15, 3blocks on 50% shooting is indeed a "big game," no matter what your personal definition is.

Duncan still comes in 3rd.

http://bkref.com/tiny/64yYT

And doubles Barkley up.

[midnightpulp]

And the nail in the coffin for this Barkley fanboy:

http://bkref.com/tiny/rj7mq

Duncan has 14 "big games" in the playoffs (the real season) to Barkley's ZERO.

Even Lamar Odom managed to do so something Barkley couldn't

[spurraider21]

I think Duncan is #1 all time in finals game with at least 21, 20, 10, and 8 blocks tbh. case closed. GOAT

[midnightpulp]

Anyhow, DSF. I hope you "get it" now.

"Big game" is an arbitrary definition relative to the era, team, situation, etc.

I'd consider a 20-10 game from Marc Gasol a "bigger game" than a 25-12 game from David Lee.

Comparing players via "big games" (which itself relies on a arbitrary definition) is probably the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this forum. I hope you learned the error of your ways and seek to become less re ed in the future.

[Latarian Milton]

duncan doesn't dominate the game in one thing or two, he dominates it as a whole imho. he usually makes more invisible impact on the game than what you can see he do on the court, and always ensures his team get the best possible result. the influence of players like duncan and battier can only be measured when they're off the court imho

[Thread]

^I still remember Battier and his 2 inch thick "STOP KOBE" binder in the Summer of '09.

tee, hee.

[ambchang]

LOL! Im "defining the criteria"? I didnt know it wasnt common knowledge what cons utes a "great game" (points, rebounds, blocks, shoot well etc). Ive used criteria to factor in shooting percentage. I'll use any "criteria" you want. Duncan is consistently behind Shaq, Barkley, Malone and Hakeem.

And no, I didnt say Howard > Hakeem. I said said howard had more big games according to one particular query (i dont even know which one youre talking about). But who cares? Hakeem will have more games than Howard in almost other relevant queries used to judge an big man's individual performance.

Im not cherry-picking a single query. Ive listed a dozen. Duncan's been labeled "boring" his entire career and the stats back that narrative up.

Since when were those common knowledge? And what does it show anyways? Using your own criteria, you have Dwight Howard > Hakeem. In fact, using your own criteria of 40 points and 10 rebounds, Antawn Jamison > Chris Webber, Paul Pierce, Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, and Kevin Garnett. This in and of itself shows that the criteria used showed nothing at all.

If you want to say that Duncan is boring, that is fine by me, but that’s not what you said in your first post, you said

Its a good think Duncan lists himself as a power forward because he was never even CLOSE to as dominant as Shaq. As far as forwards go, he has "the rings" but really never matched Barkley in terms of talent or the long term consistency of Malone. You can understand why hes always labeled "boring" when he really never really had the "big" games as often as his peers.

You explicitly said Duncan never matched Barkley and Malone or long term consistency of Malone right after listing the “findings”. You even right out said that him being labelled as boring isn’t much of an issue, and that you used those criteria to “prove” Barkley, Malone and Shaq > Duncan.

Way to backtrack.

And way to skirt the Jordan issue. Where is your response on that? To begin with, the qualifier that kept Duncan below Jordan was the 40 points. In fact, the 40 points has NOTHING to do with a “big man” criteria. Jordan > Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Barkley, Robinson, Nowitzki as big man? That’s what your criteria said, and we know how monumentally stupid that idea is.

[ambchang]

The point of this thread was Duncan hasnt had many "big games". Even in Harlem Heats queries, all of the results produce values of "2 times", "3 times" etc.

These are called "outliers" or "anomalies". Thats why theres so few. Shaq/Barkley etc have so many more 30/15 games than Duncan because they were so much more dominant/consistent than Duncan night after night.

Likewise Duncan's "Versatility" is a joke compared to KG (who blows away everyone in the points, rebounds, blocks and assists) but he wont show up in any of Harlem Heats results because he played in so few playoff games.

Given that 30/15 games aren't typical of a player's performance (unless you are Wilt or Kareem), those are what you could call "outlier" games. Saying that Malone and Barkley had more outlier games than Duncan does not equate to them being more dominant, it just showed that they had more flashes of brilliance under unqualified cir stances. In other words, it said nothing.

[da_suns_fan]

Let's pop scoring up to 25.

25, 15, 3blocks on 50% shooting is indeed a "big game," no matter what your personal definition is.

Duncan still comes in 3rd.

http://bkref.com/tiny/64yYT

And doubles Barkley up.

You still dont get it.

Why is Duncan STILL ONLY THIRD?

Barkley is NUMBER ONE in 20/20 games. NUMBER ONE in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

Likewise, Im not surprised that you use blocks to filter out barkley and malone since they werent centers and didnt usually get a lot blocks.

However, increasing the number of assists filters out Duncan extremely quick. When it comes to "passing" PFs, theres KG, Barkley and everyone else.

The fact is if you treat Duncan as a center, Shaq and Hakeem will usually be way ahead of him. If you treat him as a PF, then Barkley, Malone and sometimes even KG will be ahead of him.