1st Presidential Debate Blog

[sook]

:lmao

The bottom line is Jesus was a champion of the outcasts and the poor. Conservatives don't hold this section of our society in high regard at all.

me and madhatter have significant;y opposing views when it comes to b-ball.

But hes hit the nail on the head and is completely in line what the way i feel.

But could you do so w.o insulting the other person :hat:toast

[T Park]

This fucking thread is turning into crap, which is a shame, because it was incredibly resreshing to have a debate with two intelligent candidates for once.

I apologize for being apart of it.

I agree, from what I'm watching, I'm falling into the category of, if either wins, eh I guess I'll be ok.

I just prefer McCain cause I'll save money in taxes :lol

[TheMadHatter]

I'm pretty drunk and fucking around with tpark and the rest of the conservatives. I enjoy watching their responses, it's fascinating analyzing how they think.

[Mr. Peabody]

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=42382



Enjoy...no interviewer necessary.

Is it a youtube or are you trying to embed a different kind of video?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm pretty drunk and fucking around with tpark and the rest of the conservatives. I enjoy watching their responses, it's fascinating analyzing how they think.

You can't really blame them. You'd be scared too if you lived in Alaska where Putin rears his ugly head and goes.

[T Park]

I'm a conservative and I don't one bit "not hold" the poor and outcasts of our society in high regard. My business goes to shelters and hires the homeless, the most downtrodden of homeless with now where to go and trys to get them on their feet, give them money,a job, a uniform, free room and board.

Small business owners like myself are 100% champions of the poor and outcasts and try to hire them ourselves.

I'm not a champion of a party that wants to raise my taxes and regulate and punish me into next week.

[MannyIsGod]

Man that fucking Putin picture is still cracking me up.

[ChumpDumper]

You can't really blame them. You'd be scared too if you lived in Alaska where Putin rears his ugly head and goes.I seriously thought she was high when she said that.

[Cry Havoc]

From digg.com:

"Obama should have opened the debate with, 'Glad you could make it.'"

:lmao

[Spurminator]

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=42382



Enjoy...no interviewer necessary.

OMG they cut the whole interview! You can't see anything! :lol

[T Park]

From digg.com:

"Obama should have opened the debate with, 'Glad you could make it.'"

:lmao


:lol

I would've laughed at that

[ChumpDumper]

OMG they cut the whole interview! You can't see anything! :lolHe's right!

Conspiracy!!!!1111!!!!!!11!11!!!!

[T Park]

Anyone know when the next debate will be held? I will try and make an effort to watch that one. Didn't get to watch this one tonight live.

[bobbyjoe]

I actually thought McCain scored better on Iraq than he should have given how Obama is on the popular side of the argument of whether we should have gone in the first place. When McCain called him out for being surprised about the success of the surge, Obama failed to address the point, instead going back to how the decision to invade was a bad one.

The thing is, the next President isn't going to be charged with deciding whether or not the War in Iraq was a good idea. He's going to have to find a way to finish the job.

I think most rational, unbiased people realize that the larger issue is that if the ill-fated War was avoided in the first place, the surge would have been a moot point.

Obama drove that home pretty well.

Does a surge make up for the fact that the War with Iraq strengthened Iran by weakening Iraq, strengthened Al Qaeda by preventing the US from devoting adequate resources to Afghanistan (the true epicenter of terrorism along with Pakistan), $1 Trillion dollars, and 4,500 American lives and 30 K Americans injured?

I think a vast majority of Americans would answer an affirmative "NO" to that question.

McCain has a habit of focusing on smaller issues ($18 B of earmark spending when our budget DEFICIT this year was freaking $500B; a temporarily successful surge in Iraq in an ill-fated, ill-conceived, very poor return on investment War) and missing the larger picture.

It's pretty disturbing to keep him talking on and on about earmarks when they represent such a microscopic percentage of the federal budget. Obama called him out on this but should have expanded further on it to really expose McCain's short-sightedness on this issue.

[Purple & Gold]

These results on these polls tell me one of two things:

1) People are pissed at McCain for trying to chicken out of the debate and swung to Obama before the debate even began, and were seeing it through blue tinted glasses

- or -

2) The war in Iraq is even more unpopular than advertised, and people are supporting Barack for the way he killed McCain on the war in that one statement shown in the video above.

I honestly thought McCain did very well on the debate, but the American people disagree.

I'd go with #2. People are pissed about Iraq. He can't get away from it fast enough. His only defense is the surge and then Obama just points to why there wasn't a surge in Afghanistan.

I thought McCain did a good job. He could have easily been buried tonight because of the economy, but wasn't. That in itself is a win for him. I thought Obama did well and showed his knowledge on foreign affairs. Other than Iraq and talking with leaders of hostile countries without preconditions, their positions are very similar. I was also impressed with what McCain said about never doing torture again. But I don't think he did enough to paint himself as a maverick. He's tied to closely to Bush with Iraq and his 90% voting record.

[Anti.Hero]

.

[Spurminator]

I think most rational, unbiased people realize that the larger issue is that if the ill-fated War was avoided in the first place, the surge would have been a moot point.

Obama drove that home pretty well.

Yes but it was not avoided and thus is not a moot point. The next President is going to inherit this ill-fated war and he's not going to get us out by saying he didn't vote for it in the first place.

But I do agree that most people who are voting based on Iraq will vote based on the overall war and not the success of the surge.

[Mr. Peabody]

OMG they cut the whole interview! You can't see anything! :lol

It was probably an interview where Palin solved the crisis in the economy, formulated a new strategy (or tactic [?]) for the Iraq War, and proposed a new source of alternative energy.

Damn you liberal media!

[ChumpDumper]

Yes but it was not avoided and thus is not a moot point. The next President is going to inherit this ill-fated war and he's not going to get us out by saying he didn't vote for it in the first place.I thought it tied into future decisions regarding places like Iran, etc. If McCain was wrong in Iraq....that kind of thing.

[T Park]

Yes but it was not avoided and thus is not a moot point. The next President is going to inherit this ill-fated war and he's not going to get us out by saying he didn't vote for it in the first place.

Agreed.

They have to say how they finish it, how to wrap it up, and whats next.

[Spurminator]

I thought it tied into future decisions regarding places like Iran, etc. If McCain was wrong in Iraq....that kind of thing.

I agree, but Obama brought up his opposition to the war as a rebuttal to McCain referencing his opposition to the surge. To me, it wasn't a relevant response at that time (although I'm not sure what would have been.)

Of course it's absolutely fair (and essential) for Obama to point out McCain's support of the invasion and his own opposition.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes but it was not avoided and thus is not a moot point. The next President is going to inherit this ill-fated war and he's not going to get us out by saying he didn't vote for it in the first place.

But I do agree that most people who are voting based on Iraq will vote based on the overall war and not the success of the surge.

I have issues with saying the Surge is the reason that Iraq is better today. Not only that but we'd been hearing they needed more troops for the longes ttime before the Surge.

I dunno, there's something to be said for owning up to what you support and McCain has to do that with the war. If the American people can get over that because they feel he's attoned for it then thats fine. But he's not doing much attoning, imo.

[Purple & Gold]

I'm sick and tired of people like you doing this bullshit with religon. Cut it the fuck out.



Yeah I've heard of Medicare and its a pathetic wastefull government porkbarrel quagmire. If Government was efficient and well versed in what they did I would be for it. BUT government is a wastefull freaking joke. Red tape, wasted time, beuracracy all that BS. NO, My health and my doctor's visits should not be run through the goddamn government. NO NO NO.


Keep the personal BS to yourself. Your the one that started the insult horseshit.

Seriously your an idiot and a waste. You only care about your doctor's visits and your health. Fuck everybody else. Pathetic.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree, but Obama brought up his opposition to the war as a rebuttal to McCain referencing his opposition to the surge. To me, it wasn't a relevant response (although I'm not sure what would have been.)Probably none. Obama missed an opportunity to say the Iraqis actually wanted a timeline for withdrawal, though. He could have also brought up McCain's 100-year quip and asked him if there were any actual benchmarks that would trigger withdrawal.

[Purple & Gold]

I'm a conservative and I don't one bit "not hold" the poor and outcasts of our society in high regard. My business goes to shelters and hires the homeless, the most downtrodden of homeless with now where to go and trys to get them on their feet, give them money,a job, a uniform, free room and board.

Small business owners like myself are 100% champions of the poor and outcasts and try to hire them ourselves.

I'm not a champion of a party that wants to raise my taxes and regulate and punish me into next week.


:sleep :sleep :sleep


I call bullshit cause you want them to fend for their own dr's visits.

[T Park]

Seriously your an idiot and a waste. You only care about your doctor's visits and your health. Fuck everybody else. Pathetic.

More adult responses. I never said fuck everybody else.
I said, the government has no business in involving itself in the lives of people to the extent of controlling their health care.

[T Park]

:sleep :sleep :sleep


I call bullshit cause you want them to fend for their own dr's visits.


So I should have to pay for people other than myself, and other than my workers healthcare? I don't believe so.

You can call me all kinds of names in the book, I just don't think fundamentally I should pay for other people's healthcare. Thats all.

[Mr. Peabody]

Ha. The Huffington Post actually has debate reviews from Nora Ephron, Bob Barr, Sheryl Crow, Adam McKay, Roseanne Barr, Chris Durang, Paul Reiser, Marian Wright Edelman, etc. linked on the home page of the site.

So....if you're undecided and you want to know what Roseanne Barr or Sheryl Crow thought of the debate to help you decide, that'd be your place.

[Mr. Peabody]

WTF?!?! The Huffington Post actually has debate reviews from Nora Ephron, Bob Barr, Sheryl Crow, Adam McKay, Roseanne Barr, Chris Durang, Paul Reiser, Marian Wright Edelman, etc. linked on the home page of the site.

So....I guess if you're undecided and you want to know what Roseanne Barr or Sheryl Crow thought of the debate to help you decide, that'd be your place.

[T Park]

I have issues with saying the Surge is the reason that Iraq is better today. Not only that but we'd been hearing they needed more troops for the longes ttime before the Surge.
I dunno, there's something to be said for owning up to what you support and McCain has to do that with the war. If the American people can get over that because they feel he's attoned for it then thats fine. But he's not doing much attoning, imo.


Which McCain said he was saying IIRC.

[T Park]

Ha. The Huffington Post actually has debate reviews from Nora Ephron, Bob Barr, Sheryl Crow, Adam McKay, Roseanne Barr, Chris Durang, Paul Reiser, Marian Wright Edelman, etc. linked on the home page of the site.

So....if you're undecided and you want to know what Roseanne Barr or Sheryl Crow thought of the debate to help you decide, that'd be your place.


Good god..

What makes these people experts or voices of intelligence on Presidential debates?

[Spurminator]

I think Townhall has a link to Kid Rock's post debate analysis.

[Purple & Gold]

More adult responses. I never said fuck everybody else.
I said, the government has no business in involving itself in the lives of people to the extent of controlling their health care.

So you would rather have many people have no healthcare as long as it isn't you. Very Christian of you. :toast

[T Park]

I think Townhall has a link to Kid Rock's post debate analysis.

What no link to "voteordie.com" and PDiddy's analysis?

Damn.

[whottt]

OMG they cut the whole interview! You can't see anything! :lol

omHUsRTYFAU


Fixed.

[T Park]

So you would rather have many people have no healthcare as long as it isn't you. Very Christian of you. :toast


Ah more assaults on my religous views.


Gotta love it.

I never said that again, quit twisting my words.

[Purple & Gold]

So I should have to pay for people other than myself, and other than my workers healthcare? I don't believe so.

You can call me all kinds of names in the book, I just don't think fundamentally I should pay for other people's healthcare. Thats all.

It's the natural progression of things and will happen whether you don't like it or not. Thats all.

[Purple & Gold]

Ah more assaults on my religous views.


Gotta love it.

Gotta love your hypocrisy.

[whottt]

Is it a youtube or are you trying to embed a different kind of video?



No it was youtube, but there was a combination of my wireless keyboard and anti-virus running...

[T Park]

Gotta love your hypocrisy.

How am I a hypocrit, I'm a christian, therefore I have to be Liberal?

What kind of bullshit is that?

[T Park]

It's the natural progression of things and will happen whether you don't like it or not. Thats all.

?

What kind of retort is that. Its gonna happen whether you like it or not so get used to it.

[Anti.Hero]

Jesus Christ was a community organizer. Pontious Pilot was a governor.

[TheMadHatter]

T Park represents what's wrong with those who were born into money. They simply lack the capacity to understand the plights of ordinary citizens.

Healthcare SHOULD be a right for all Americans. The notion that you can't receive medical treatment because you are poor is absolutely ludicrous. On some level you have to be about more than money, excess, and greed as a human being else you are missing the point of being human. I don't envy the man making over $250k who has no regard for human life other than himself. That represents to me a man who's values aren't worth a cent.

[TheMadHatter]

TPark if you really are a Christian you would never question universal healthcare. Jesus would never oppose universal healthcare. If you oppose Jesus on so fundamental an issue you aren't much of a Christian IMHO.

[T Park]

I'm done arguing with such ludicrous statements.

[Purple & Gold]

?

What kind of retort is that. Its gonna happen whether you like it or not so get used to it.

It's the natural progression of things it will happen eventually. I guess you could always refuse to pay your taxes like the other revolutionaries though.

[TheMadHatter]

I'm done arguing with such ludicrous statements.

Would Jesus oppose universal healthcare?

[TheMadHatter]

It's the natural progression of things it will happen eventually. I guess you could always refuse to pay your taxes like the other revolutionaries though.

He's conservative, it's ok they're all a little slow. The bottom line is conservatives have always been on the wrong side of history:

Civil Rights movement, women's rights, gay rights......it doesn't really matter. They will always lose in the end, it's just a matter of how long they can delay progress.

[T Park]

TPark if you really are a Christian you would never question universal healthcare. Jesus would never oppose universal healthcare. If you oppose Jesus on so fundamental an issue you aren't much of a Christian IMHO.


Wow.

I, this is one of the most asinine things I've ever witnessed on here.

[Purple & Gold]

TPark if you really are a Christian you would never question universal healthcare. Jesus would never oppose universal healthcare. If you oppose Jesus on so fundamental an issue you aren't much of a Christian IMHO.

I agree. I don't see how a Christian could oppose universal healthcare. Goes against it entirely.

[Purple & Gold]

He's conservative, it's ok they're all a little slow. The bottom line is conservatives have always been on the wrong side of history:

Civil Rights movement, women's rights, gay rights......it doesn't really matter. They will always lose in the end, it's just a matter of how long they can delay progress.

Pretty much and once it's implemented it just can't be unimplemented. I figure within 10 years we will have universal healthcare. Maybe sooner.

[baseline bum]

Healthcare SHOULD be a right for all Americans. The notion that you can't receive medical treatment because you are poor is absolutely ludicrous.

Totally agree... what if police service was based on how much money you have? Could you imagine if the police took 2 hours to come if someone gets shot on Vernon... oh wait, bad example.

[TheMadHatter]

Like I said before, the problem with people like TPark is that they were born into money. They have little capacity to understand what ordinary people go through in their every day lives. The fact that they want everyone to pay for their own health care, without any regard for how ridiculous our health care system is, exemplifies this.

What's worse is TPark considers himself Christian, while holding onto selfish views that are in direct opposition to Christ's teachings.

[T Park]

Like I said before, the problem with people like TPark is that they were born into money. They have little capacity to understand what ordinary people go through in their every day lives. The fact that they want everyone to pay for their own health care, without any regard for how ridiculous our health care system is, exemplifies this.

What's worse is TPark considers himself Christian, while holding onto selfish views that are in direct opposition to Christ's teachings.


I was not born into fucking money.

[T Park]

:lol

Hey Baseline, isn't Frank Luntz the guy Penn and Teller called a douchebag? :lol


Watching him on Fox News right now its funny looking back on that episode and seeing him now.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm done arguing with such ludicrous statements.

Yes, thank you for arguing with such ludicrous statements and completely ignoring posts that were made with actual effort. :rolleyes

[T Park]

Yes, thank you for arguing with such ludicrous statements and completely ignoring posts that were made with actual effort. :rolleyes

Yes the calling me a hypocritcal christian were made with great effort.

[baseline bum]

:lol

Hey Baseline, isn't Frank Luntz the guy Penn and Teller called a douchebag? :lol


Watching him on Fox News right now its funny looking back on that episode and seeing him now.

:lmao

If9EWDB_zK4

yeah

[T Park]

:lmao

I KNEW IT!!

:lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Yes the calling me a hypocritcal christian were made with great effort.

Wow. You cannot possibly respond to what I said more poorly. Perhaps if you wouldn't get sucked into flamewars you would understand my statement.

[T Park]

Wow. You cannot possibly comprehend and respond to what I said in a worse fashion.


:lol

I'm sorry for being soooooooooooo far inferior to you.


Pardont he hell out of me.

[Cry Havoc]

:lol

I'm sorry for being soooooooooooo far inferior to you.


Pardont he hell out of me.

Be more defensive. Please. Because it's my fault that you're fighting with trolls.

[T Park]

Be more defensive. Please. Because it's my fault that you're fighting with trolls.


Never said it was, but your affirming that you agree with "trolls"

What does that say?

[dg7md]

Is it just me, or did anyone else cringe when McCain referred to himself as a "maverick"? Even if he was, you don't say that about yourself.

[Purple & Gold]

Never said it was, but your affirming that you agree with "trolls"

What does that say?

:lmao :lmao Just answer me this question. Would Jesus himself be for or against everybody having access to dr's without having to be financially ruined?

[TheMadHatter]

Hey TFat answer the question.

Would Jesus be opposed to every American receiving healthcare regardless of their incomes?

[Cry Havoc]

Never said it was, but your affirming that you agree with "trolls"

What does that say?

Please show me where I stated that. I said you AREN'T responding to people putting effort into their posts because you're too busy fighting with the idiots who are challenging your Christianity. But you can keep putting words in my mouth if you'd like.

[Cry Havoc]

Night everyone. In the future I will be as inflammatory as possible, since that's what everyone seems to respond to on these threads.

[T Park]

Is it just me, or did anyone else cringe when McCain referred to himself as a "maverick"? Even if he was, you don't say that about yourself.

Agreed, that is very "toot the horn" esque.

[T Park]

Please show me where I stated that. I said you AREN'T responding to people putting effort into their posts because you're too busy fighting with the idiots who are challenging your Christianity. But you can keep putting words in my mouth if you'd like.

Apologies I misunderstood your comment.

[Findog]

Is it just me, or did anyone else cringe when McCain referred to himself as a "maverick"? Even if he was, you don't say that about yourself.

POW 9.11 EARMARK MAVERICK POW 9.11 EARMARK MAVERICK POW 9.11 EARMARK MAVERICK POW 9.11 EARMARK MAVERICK

[Shastafarian]

Where'd Shasta go? Still googling Kissinger?

No I went to sleep. I'm touched to know you were thinking about me.

[JoeChalupa]

Morning Joe rocks!!

[Shastafarian]

Morning Joe rocks!!

I tried watching Fox and Friends. I just can't. It's quite possibly the dumbest/worst political show on television.

[Yonivore]

Well, I went to bed but, wanted to post this (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/fact-check-kiss.html), this morning:


"Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality," Kissinger said in statement issued by the McCain campaign.
I think that about nails down whether or not Obama was lying.

[01.20.09]

You forgot to post this part:

While it appears Kissinger and Senator Barack Obama disagree on what level those talks should occur, they do agree talks should begin, in Kissinger's words, “at a very high level” and without preconditions.

During the debate, McCain said that Kissinger would not endorse Obama's position that he would meet on a presidential level with leaders of enemy countries. "I guarantee you he would not say that," McCain said of Kissinger.

Obama took issue with McCain's characterization of the former top diplomat's position, but just last week Kissinger said that, while he broadly agrees on the need to negotiate with Iran, he "preferred doing it at the secretary of state level."

When asked if high level talks with Iran should begin right out of the box, Kissinger replied "Initially, yes."

[Shelly.]

Well, I went to bed but, wanted to post this (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/fact-check-kiss.html), this morning:


I think that about nails down whether or not Obama was lying.


lie stats

Obama 1

McCain 20

[Shelly.]

Saying Tpark is a Cristian is like putting lipstick on a pig.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/pig.jpg

[2centsworth]

lie stats

Obama 1

McCain 20

lie stats

Obama 5000

McCain 2


See we win!

[JoeChalupa]

Can't wait for the VP debate.

[T Park.]

Saying Tpark is a Cristian is like putting lipstick on a pig.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/pig.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/tpark-sucks-pig.jpg

[Mog]

Dam I came in here to talk politics and it smells like burnt bacon and pork skins! Did Tpark get his ass fried again?

[Yonivore]

You forgot to post this part:

While it appears Kissinger and Senator Barack Obama disagree on what level those talks should occur, they do agree talks should begin, in Kissinger's words, “at a very high level” and without preconditions.

During the debate, McCain said that Kissinger would not endorse Obama's position that he would meet on a presidential level with leaders of enemy countries. "I guarantee you he would not say that," McCain said of Kissinger.

Obama took issue with McCain's characterization of the former top diplomat's position, but just last week Kissinger said that, while he broadly agrees on the need to negotiate with Iran, he "preferred doing it at the secretary of state level."

When asked if high level talks with Iran should begin right out of the box, Kissinger replied "Initially, yes."
No, we discussed and it's not relevant to the specific lie Obama is accused of making. In fact, the Kissinger statement I posted this morning specifically refutes Obamas claim that Kissinger agreed with his earlier campaign promise that he, as President, would meet with Ahmadinejad, without preconditions.

That was a lie. Kissinger made no such statement.

And, Shelly, what were McCain's "20" lies?

[Shastafarian]

No, we discussed and it's not relevant to the specific lie Obama is accused of making. In fact, the Kissinger statement I posted this morning specifically refutes Obamas claim that Kissinger agreed with his earlier campaign promise that he, as President, would meet with Ahmadinejad, without preconditions.

That was a lie. Kissinger made no such statement.

And, Shelly, what were McCain's "20" lies?

Well here's something. It's not a bald-faced lie, but it is being intellectually dishonest.

McCain stated that Obama "voted..to increase taxes on people who make as little as $42,000 a year..."

A TV spot claims Obama once voted for a tax increase "on people making just $42,000 a year." That's true for a single taxpayer, who would have seen a tax increase of $15 for the year[...]A family of four with income up to $90,000 would not have been affected.

So it's not a lie. But it's a sensationalist answer.

[Findog]

Well, I went to bed but, wanted to post this (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/fact-check-kiss.html), this morning:


I think that about nails down whether or not Obama was lying.

No, Kissinger is just issuing a lifeline to McCain on this one.

[Yonivore]

No, Kissinger is just issuing a lifeline to McCain on this one.
No, and you can't come up with anything, other than Obama's lie last night, where Kissinger said -- or it is claimed he said -- he supports Obama's plan to, as President of the United States, sit down with our enemies...without conditions.

Do I need to go find the Obama quote where he said it, was asked if he meant that as President he would do that, and he said, yes?

[Findog]

No, and you can't come up with anything, other than Obama's lie last night, where Kissinger said -- or it is claimed he said -- he supports Obama's plan to, as President of the United States, sit down with our enemies...without conditions.

Do I need to go find the Obama quote where he said it, was asked if he meant that as President he would do that, and he said, yes?

Kissinger wants McCain to win and is willing to amend his previous position to support his friend. It's as simple as that. Obama didn't distort his previous comment about talking to Iran.

[Yonivore]

Kissinger wants McCain to win and is willing to amend his previous position to support his friend. It's as simple as that. Obama didn't distort his previous comment about talking to Iran.
Show me where Kissinger agrees that the President of the United States should meet with our enemies without preconditions? When did Kissinger say that?

[Shastafarian]

Show me where Kissinger agrees that the President of the United States should meet with our enemies without preconditions? When did Kissinger say that?

Show me where Obama claimed Kissinger said there should be meetings between the President of the US and Ahmadinejad without preconditions.

[Yonivore]

Show me where Obama claimed Kissinger said there should be meetings between the President of the US and Ahmadinejad without preconditions.
Did he, or did he not say that in response to McCain's revelation that he'd do just that?

Didn't he pull the, "Well, Henry Kissinger agrees with me," card? Weren't you watching with the rest of us?

[Shastafarian]

Did he, or did he not say that in response to McCain's revelation that he'd do just that?

Didn't he pull the, "Well, Henry Kissinger agrees with me," card? Weren't you watching with the rest of us?

Did he ever say Kissinger said it? You're dodging the question. In fact, after McCain said, "Dr. Kissinger has NEVER said there should be meetings without precondition between the president of the united states and ahmadinejad" you can hear Obama say, "of course not". What did he agree with him about?

[Findog]

Show me where Kissinger agrees that the President of the United States should meet with our enemies without preconditions? When did Kissinger say that?

Kissinger says we should talk to Iran. Obama agrees.

[Findog]

In any event, a big smile crossed my face when McCain said he's been friends with a war criminal for 35 years. I wouldn't brag about that.

[Yonivore]

Kissinger says we should talk to Iran. Obama agrees.
Ah, but Obama used Kissinger as cover in a response to McCain calling him out on his campaign rhetoric that he would meet with Ahmadenijad, without conditions.

It's either a lie or a misdirection (fancy name for a lie)

McCain called him out and he says that Kissinger agrees we should meet with Iran in an attempt to make it look like Kissinger agrees with what he said earlier in the campaign.

It's a lie.

[Yonivore]

In any event, a big smile crossed my face when McCain said he's been friends with a war criminal for 35 years. I wouldn't brag about that.
Bill Ayers is a self-avowed, unrepetent terrorist who wanted -- and regrets not doing more -- to kill Americans. That bothers me more than your not-widely held belief that Kissinger is a war criminal.

Have fun with that.

[Shastafarian]

Ah, but Obama used Kissinger as cover in a response to McCain calling him out on his campaign rhetoric that he would meet with Ahmadenijad, without conditions.

It's either a lie or a misdirection (fancy name for a lie)

McCain called him out and he says that Kissinger agrees we should meet with Iran in an attempt to make it look like Kissinger agrees with what he said earlier in the campaign.

It's a lie.

:lol you are such a hypocrite. It's not a lie. At worst he was using "Kissinger agrees with me" to reinforce his point that meetings with Iran should take place at any level.

[hypocriteafarian]

Ah, but Obama used Kissinger as cover in a response to McCain calling him out on his campaign rhetoric that he would meet with Ahmadenijad, without conditions.

It's either a lie or a misdirection (fancy name for a lie)

McCain called him out and he says that Kissinger agrees we should meet with Iran in an attempt to make it look like Kissinger agrees with what he said earlier in the campaign.

It's a lie.

That's pretty hypocritical. And my name is hypocriteafarian!!!

[Yonivore]

:lol you are such a hypocrite. It's not a lie. At worst he was using "Kissinger agrees with me" to reinforce his point that meetings with Iran should take place at any level.
In response to a specific criticism that, during his campaign, he has said that he, personally, would meet with our enemies, without preconditions, as President of the United States.

Yeah, it's a lie.

[Shastafarian]

In response to a specific criticism that, during his campaign, he has said that he, personally, would meet with our enemies, without preconditions, as President of the United States.

Yeah, it's a lie.

Not if he was using "Kissinger agrees with me" to reference preconditions, which I think he was.

[Yonivore]

Not if he was using "Kissinger agrees with me" to reference preconditions, which I think he was.
Think what you want... Here's what I think; most people watching think he was invoking Kissinger's agreement in hopes that it would validate his preposterous position that the President of the United States should sit down with our enemies without preconditions.

Kissinger must have felt that way or he would not have clarified it this morning.

[Shastafarian]

Think what you want... Here's what I think; most people watching think he was invoking Kissingers agreement in hopes that it would validate his preposterous position that the President of the United States should sit down with our enemies without preconditions.

Kissinger must have felt that way or he would have clarified it this morning.

Doesn't matter what we think in the end. We know who we're voting for. But it wasn't a lie.

[Al Gore]

I like the way Manny responded back to mouse very unbiased of him.

[Findog]

Bill Ayers is a self-avowed, unrepetent terrorist who wanted -- and regrets not doing more -- to kill Americans. That bothers me more than your not-widely held belief that Kissinger is a war criminal.

Have fun with that.

Bill Ayers once belonged to the Weathermen, a group that blew up a bunch of empty buildings. Good luck finding a quote from Obama where he expressed support for that. Henry Kissinger is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Nobody outside of knuckledragging retards thinks Kissinger is an honorable and decent man or innocent of war crimes. There's a reason why he can't leave the country.

[Yonivore]

Bill Ayers once belonged to the Weathermen, a group that blew up a bunch of empty buildings. Good luck finding a quote from Obama where he expressed support for that. Henry Kissinger is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Nobody outside of knuckledragging retards thinks Kissinger is an honorable and decent man or innocent of war crimes. There's a reason why he can't leave the country.
I think you just called Barak Obama a knuckledragging retard.

Like I said, Ayers -- in 2002 I believe -- expressed regret he didn't do more in his terrorist days.

http://www.moonbattery.com/Ayersflagdesecration.jpg


Bill Ayers once belonged to the Weathermen, a group that blew up a bunch of empty buildings.
Uh, not exactly...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/825/brianvmcdonnell1vm0.jpg
One of the forgotten victims of the Bill Ayers and Benardine Dorhn, Brain V. McDonnell, murdered policemen by the Weather Underground.


October 20, 1981 - Brinks robbery in which several members of the Weather Underground stole over $1 million from a Brinks armored car near Nyack, New York. The robbers murdered 2 police officers and 1 Brinks guard. Several others were wounded.

1981 "Guilty as hel*. Free as a bird. America is a great country," Ayers said when interviewed by David Horowitz.

[Ricardo Romo]

I have to give it up to Yonni he has made a huge comeback. If only he was a Democrat.

[Findog]

I think you just called Barak Obama a knuckledragging retard.

No, he was making the point that even a hardline hawk like Kissinger supports diplomacy with Iran.







One of the forgotten victims of the Bill Ayers and Benardine Dorhn, Brain V. McDonnell, murdered policemen by the Weather Underground.


October 20, 1981 - Brinks robbery in which several members of the Weather Underground stole over $1 million from a Brinks armored car near Nyack, New York. The robbers murdered 2 police officers and 1 Brinks guard. Several others were wounded.

What does any of that have to do with Barack Obama? Seriously? The two served together on the Woods Fund Board from 1999 until Obama left in 2002. Ayers had other contact with Obama as a resident of Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, hosting a meet-and-greet at his house to introduce Obama to his neighbors during Obama's first Illinois state Senate campaign in 1995, appearing on education panels together, and donating $200 to Obama's campaign in April 2001.

And guess what? I don't care about ANY OF THAT. Meanwhile, John McCain last night told an audience of 57 million Americans that he is a very dear friend of a war criminal responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

This election is too important to get mired down in stupid bullshit. If I thought McCain was right on the issues, I wouldn't hold his 35 year friendship with Kissinger against him. So I don't care that Barack Obama and Bill Ayers have crossed paths.

You guys are just pathetically grasping at straws.

[Yonivore]

No, he was making the point that even a hardline hawk like Kissinger supports diplomacy with Iran.

What does any of that have to do with Barack Obama? Seriously? The two served together on the Woods Fund Board from 1999 until Obama left in 2002. Ayers had other contact with Obama as a resident of Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, hosting a meet-and-greet at his house to introduce Obama to his neighbors during Obama's first Illinois state Senate campaign in 1995, appearing on education panels together, and donating $200 to Obama's campaign in April 2001.

And guess what? I don't care about ANY OF THAT. Meanwhile, John McCain last night told an audience of 57 million Americans that he is a very dear friend of a war criminal responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

This election is too important to get mired down in stupid bullshit. If I thought McCain was right on the issues, I wouldn't hold his 35 year friendship with Kissinger against him. So I don't care that Barack Obama and Bill Ayers have crossed paths.

You guys are just pathetically grasping at straws.
Ah, but that Ayers were the only Obama crony of questionable repute. Seems his past is full of radicals...distant and not so distant past.

Sorry, guilty by association.

So, give me a the name of a reputable associate of Obama's from his history...

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, guilty by association.Guilty of what?

[Biernutz]

Another Weatherman terrorist a player in Obama campaign
Communists, socialists, anarchists also part of political organization
Posted: September 26, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/0925markrudd.jpg
Former Weathermen member Mark Rudd JERUSALEM – One of the main founders of the Weathermen terrorist organization is a signatory to an independent organization acting to ensure the election of Sen. Barack Obama, WND has learned.
The group in question, Progressives for Obama (http://progressivesforobama.net/), also includes among its ranks many former members of the 1960s radical organization Students for a Democratic Society, from which the Weathermen splintered, as well as current and former members of other radical organizations, such as the Communist Party USA and the Black Radical Congress.
In its creed, first published in March in the Nation magazine, the Progressives for Obama founders state their organization descended from the "proud tradition of independent social movements that have made America a more just and democratic country."
Progressives for Obama stated it can help the Illinois senator's ascent to highest office by contributing funds, using the Internet to reach "millions of swing voters;" defending Obama against negative attacks and making its agenda known at the Democratic National Convention.
"Progressives can make a difference in close primary races like Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Oregon and Puerto Rico, and in the November general election," the founders state.

Story continues

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76234

[ChumpDumper]

Wow!

A signatory to an independent organization!

The October surprise came early!

It's all over!

[Findog]

Ah, but that Ayers were the only Obama crony of questionable repute. Seems his past is full of radicals...distant and not so distant past.

Sorry, guilty by association.

So, give me a the name of a reputable associate of Obama's from his history...

Oh yeah, Rezko hooked him up with a below market rate on a house. What does that have to do with Iraq, health care, the bailout, climate change, etc?

[Findog]

Guilty of what?

He's a scary, sinister Manchurian Negro!

[Biernutz]

Guilty of what?

say what?http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/SMILEYS%20%20222/teabag.gif

[AFBlue]

Kissinger says we should talk to Iran. Obama agrees.

You and Yoni are gettin wrapped around the axel...and for no good reason.

The truth:

Kissinger said that secretary-level meetings should occur between the US and Iran without pre-condition.

Obama used this fact to state that one of McCain's supporters suggested there should be talks without pre-condition. He never said that Kissinger was suggesting a President should meet without pre-condition.

However, Obama using it as a correlation with his position is intentionally misleading, because...

Obama stated in the YouTube debate that he, as President of the United States, would meet with the leaders of Iran, NK, and Venezuela without pre-condition.

He also did not state at the time that there would need to be "preparations", such as previous meetings with lower-level staff.

Bottom Line: It's a moot point. Kissinger said what he said, but it lended no credence to Obama's original statement that he would meet with other Presidents without pre-condition.

[ChumpDumper]

say what?http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/SMILEYS%20%20222/teabag.gifGuilty of teabagging you?

Can't argue with that. You seem to be the type that would be into it.

[Findog]

You and Yoni are gettin wrapped around the axel...and for no good reason.

The truth:

Kissinger said that secretary-level meetings should occur between the US and Iran without pre-condition.

Obama used this fact to state that one of McCain's supporters suggested there should be talks without pre-condition. He never said that Kissinger was suggesting a President should meet without pre-condition.

However, Obama using it as a correlation with his position is intentionally misleading, because...

Obama stated in the YouTube debate that he, as President of the United States, would meet with the leaders of Iran, NK, and Venezuela without pre-condition.

He also did not state at the time that there would need to be "preparations", such as previous meetings with lower-level staff.

Bottom Line: It's a moot point. Kissinger said what he said, but it lended no credence to Obama's original statement that he would meet with other Presidents without pre-condition.

that's fair. is it wrong to meet with dictators? Does that confer moral legitimacy on them? Shouldn't we try to resolve things with diplomacy first?

[Biernutz]

Still waiting for your snappy come back about Hussein's radical connections.

[ChumpDumper]

Still waiting for your snappy come back about Hussein's radical connections.Still waiting for someone to tell me what any of it means.

[Findog]

Still waiting for someone to tell me what any of it means.

Manchurian Negro!

[Purple & Gold]

Manchurian Negro!

Denzel?

[ChumpDumper]

No, the Manchurian candidate was a POW in Asia.

Wait a second....

[AFBlue]

that's fair. is it wrong to meet with dictators? Does that confer moral legitimacy on them? Shouldn't we try to resolve things with diplomacy first?

I think the "moral legitimacy" thing is a non-argument. We negotiate with China despite clear human rights violations because we have common interest.

I know the silent treatment isn't working, but I don't know that the President meeting with the leaders of those countries (essentially the polar opposite) is the right message either. To be viewed as "extending a hand" to brutal dictators is a bit of a stretch.

Still, if there's common interest I think an administration should be willing to swallow their "moral high standing" and engage in some form of diplomacy.

But that's just my take.

[Shastafarian]

No, the Manchurian candidate was a POW in Asia.

Wait a second....

:lol

[Findog]

I think the "moral legitimacy" thing is a non-argument. We negotiate with China despite clear human rights violations because we have common interest.

I know the silent treatment isn't working, but I don't know that the President meeting with the leaders of those countries (essentially the polar opposite) is the right message either. To be viewed as "extending a hand" to brutal dictators is a bit of a stretch.

Still, if there's common interest I think an administration should be willing to swallow their "moral high standing" and engage in some form of diplomacy.

But that's just my take.

I respect your takes. I'm not sure, but I think I saw you post elsewhere that you're a McCain supporter, if I'm not mistaken. Kudos on being civil and being interested in a discussion instead of the usual back and forth without bickering or name calling.

[Biernutz]

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/SMILEYS%20%20222/phill1234.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Still waiting for someone to tell me what any of it means.Still waiting. Posting an answer should be easier than creating and saving a stupid picture.

[Findog]

Still waiting. Posting an answer should be easier than creating and saving a stupid picture.

The best I could plausibly think of if I were to answer for them is that Obama MUST be concealing much more radical views than he lets on in his official capacity as the Dem nominee for President. And his association with such men is testament to a lack of character.

I think that's what they really believe, but they know they'll be laughed and mocked at for espousing it. It's ultimately the same thing as Kerry is a "flip flopper" (like he's the only politician who ever changed his mind) or Gore is a serial liar taking credit for the Internet and being the inspiration for a character in a novel. Putting the focus on things that don't matter, since they can't win on the issues.

[AFBlue]

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/SMILEYS%20%20222/phill1234.jpg

:lol

I'm laughing because I can hear Dr. Phil saying it in my mind...or maybe that's my impersonation of Dr. Phil saying it. Either way, funny as hell.

[AFBlue]

I respect your takes. I'm not sure, but I think I saw you post elsewhere that you're a McCain supporter, if I'm not mistaken. Kudos on being civil and being interested in a discussion instead of the usual back and forth without bickering or name calling.

Appreciate the kudos. I know it's not very often that civility or logic find their way into this forum. :lol

Yes I'm a McCain supporter and a registered Republican (required by Texas to vote in the primary), but I try to look at things as objectively as possible and am usually willing to concede points where they're due.

As for the next President, I'm optimistic whoever it is will be able to improve our standing in the world and make some headway with Iran, North Korea, and now Russia. I'm also hoping we don't have to put boots on the ground to resolve anything, but that may not totally be up to us.

Either way, our President needs to be ready...and it's just my opinion that McCain is better prepared to handle whatever may come.

[Yonivore]

Oh yeah, Rezko hooked him up with a below market rate on a house. What does that have to do with Iraq, health care, the bailout, climate change, etc?
Speaks to integrity. If he's willing to deal with dogs in his personal life...well, oh wait! He's already said he'd deal with dogs in his official capacity...without preconditions.

[Shastafarian]

And, Shelly, what were McCain's "20" lies?

Here's one.

SEN. MCCAIN: But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters. One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and Allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history -- still, to this day, and forever. And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy. Somehow we've lost that accountability.

I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission.

We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.

-- John McCain, presidential debate, Oxford, Miss., Sept. 26, 2008.

This is how John McCain kicked off the first debate, with two big misstatements of fact.

First of all, here is the second and thankfully unnecessary letter that General Eisenhower wrote on the eve of D-Day. As you can probably see, it concludes with the words, "If any blame is found attached to the attempt, it is mine alone." In other words, he never offered to resign. Where McCain got that idea from, I have no idea. Wasn't that remark prepared in advance?

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/McCain_doesnt_like_Ike_facts.html

There's also one in there about him saying he would ask the SEC Chairman to resign even though he ACTUALLY said he'd fire him (something the president can't do). But I figured you'd cop out and say, "he meant force a resignation idiot" so I didn't even bother copying and pasting that one.

[Hook Dem]

Maybe. Maybe he's just too old...

This is the kind of arrogance and disrespect the youth of our country displays after being told to do so by democratic talking points.

[boutons_]

Both Candidates Made Misstatements, But McCain's Were By A Mile


"I've put together a summary of the misstatements of fact in last night's debate as tracked by FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html).


The bottom-line is that while Obama did make a few mistakes, none were outright fabrications, and even when wrong, he was fairly close to being accurate.


McCain, on the other hand, delivered several whoppers that weren't even close to the truth.


First, Obama's misstatements:
Denied voting for a budget plan that called for a tax increase on people making $42K. He did vote for a budget resolution with such a recommendation, but even if it had passed, it would have not have had the force of law. Moreover, he does not support such a tax increase in his current plan.
Claimed Iraq has a $79 billion surplus, but that figure is outdated and the actually number is now closer to $60 billion.
Claimed 95% of "the American people" would see a tax cut under his plan when he should have said "95% of American families with children."
Claimed McCain's health care plan would levy taxes against employers on health care premiums when McCain would actually be taxing individuals.Second, McCain misstatements:
Denied Kissinger called for meetings with Iran without conditions, when Kissinger had made such a call.
Claimed Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen had criticized Obama's troop withdrawal plan when Mullen had not.
Claimed earmarks had tripled in the last five years when they have actually decreased.
Claimed U.S. pays $700 billion per year to buy oil from hostile nations when the actual figure is at most $359 billion.
Claimed Obama would hand the health care system to the federal government, which is false.
Claimed Dwight Eisenhower had penned a letter offering his resignation if Normandy had failed, but that didn't happen.Basically, when Obama erred, he was saying 2 + 2 = 4.01. When McCain erred, he was saying 2 + 2 = 4,000,001."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/27/both-candidates-made-miss_n_129932.html?view=print

=================

McMakesUpRandomShit continues to make up random shit and lie in the debate as he, lipstick pitbull bitch, and their ads do, refuting any comparison that says HUSSEIN is even within an order of magnitude of McSenile's volume of crap.

.

[Hook Dem]

Surprise...surprise...surprise! Democrats are supporting their candidate and Republicans are supporting theirs. It's funny how they come on here and try to get everyone to see their point of view. The truth of the matter is that minds are made up and they see this much like a football game. Nothing is solved here but making yourself feel better by running down the other candidate. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I used to be a democrat until I grew up and experienced life a little.

[Shastafarian]

Second, McCain misstatements:

* Denied Kissinger called for meetings with Iran without conditions, when Kissinger had made such a call.
* Claimed Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen had criticized Obama's troop withdrawal plan when Mullen had not.
* Claimed earmarks had tripled in the last five years when they have actually decreased.
* Claimed U.S. pays $700 billion per year to buy oil from hostile nations when the actual figure is at most $359 billion.
* Claimed Obama would hand the health care system to the federal government, which is false.
* Claimed Dwight Eisenhower had penned a letter offering his resignation if Normandy had failed, but that didn't happen.

These are the big ones IMHO.

[Shastafarian]

Surprise...surprise...surprise! Democrats are supporting their candidate and Republicans are supporting theirs. It's funny how they come on here and try to get everyone to see their point of view. The truth of the matter is that minds are made up and they see this much like a football game. Nothing is solved here but making yourself feel better by running down the other candidate. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I used to be a democrat until I grew up and experienced life a little.

So I guess all Democrats over the age of 35 are just dumb or what? Or are you trying to say everyone's experiences are different and lead them down different ideological paths?

[Hook Dem]

"Or are you trying to say everyone's experiences are different and lead them down different ideological paths?"..............[B]EXACTLY!B]

[Cry Havoc]

Surprise...surprise...surprise! Democrats are supporting their candidate and Republicans are supporting theirs. It's funny how they come on here and try to get everyone to see their point of view. The truth of the matter is that minds are made up and they see this much like a football game. Nothing is solved here but making yourself feel better by running down the other candidate. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I used to be a democrat until I grew up and experienced life a little.

But the independents on this board (I won't put myself into that category even though I am one, because I was not objectively watching the debate) such as DarkReign, Mr. Peabody, and several others have mostly stated that they thought Obama came off as a clear winner. Not everyone did, but the people who are regularly a part of the political forum at large and actively post here mostly go to Obama. That's the real measuring stick.

What pisses me off is that both sides of the fence are once again giving their political entities a 100% free pass to say whatever they want with support. With a few exceptions, it's only the independents on this board who are calling the candidates out for slip-ups and idiotic statements.

[AFBlue]

But the independents on this board (I won't put myself into that category even though I am one, because I was not objectively watching the debate) such as DarkReign, Mr. Peabody, and several others have mostly stated that they thought Obama came off as a clear winner. Not everyone did, but the people who are regularly a part of the political forum at large and actively post here mostly go to Obama. That's the real measuring stick.

What pisses me off is that both sides of the fence are once again giving their political entities a 100% free pass to say whatever they want with support. With a few exceptions, it's only the independents on this board who are calling the candidates out for slip-ups and idiotic statements.

FWIW, I thought each candidate handled their strength very well (Obama on Economy and McCain on Foreign Policy), but that Obama did a better job than expected on his weakness versus McCain. He showed a decent command of foreign policy and didn't look totally overmatched.

[Shastafarian]

FWIW, I thought each candidate handled their strength very well (Obama on Economy and McCain on Foreign Policy), but that Obama did a better job than expected on his weakness versus McCain. He showed a decent command of foreign policy and didn't look totally overmatched.

It should be noted that current President Zardari told Wolf Blitzer that he agrees with Obama's stance of "unwilling or unable". He says they are willing but he made a specific note of what Obama said. Yet McCain continues to attack Obama on what he has said. God I hate politicians.

[AFBlue]

It should be noted that current President Zardari told Wolf Blitzer that he agrees with Obama's stance of "unwilling or unable". He says they are willing but he made a specific note of what Obama said. Yet McCain continues to attack Obama on what he has said. God I hate politicians.

Political leverage so he can go into Kashmir "to chase down terrorists" without the support of the Indian government. Turnabout is fair play....




Just kidding...:lol

[Yonivore]

So I guess all Democrats over the age of 35 are just dumb or what? Or are you trying to say everyone's experiences are different and lead them down different ideological paths?
If you're young and conservative, you have no heart. If you're old and liberal, you have no brain.

You can pick where young becomes old.

[Yonivore]

Second, McCain misstatements:

* Denied Kissinger called for meetings with Iran without conditions, when Kissinger had made such a call.
* Claimed Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen had criticized Obama's troop withdrawal plan when Mullen had not.
* Claimed earmarks had tripled in the last five years when they have actually decreased.
* Claimed U.S. pays $700 billion per year to buy oil from hostile nations when the actual figure is at most $359 billion.
* Claimed Obama would hand the health care system to the federal government, which is false.
* Claimed Dwight Eisenhower had penned a letter offering his resignation if Normandy had failed, but that didn't happen.

These are the big ones IMHO.
Well, if those are the big ones, you've got nothing.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Yoni couldn't be more of a hypocrite if he tried.