RICHARD JEFFERSON opts OUT!!

[texbound]

i still dont know why he isnt slotted into the salary for when he was a first round draft pick.


is it because he stayed in europe?


still i thought signing a first rounder brought along different 'rules' than second rounders or free agents.

Splitter finally could be poised to jump to the NBA: He can opt out of his deal in Spain this summer, and because he's three years removed from being drafted, he is eligible to be paid like an NBA free agent. Splitter will likely ask capped-out San Antonio to pay him the full mid-level exception, and he'll be worth every penny considering how desperately it needs him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/nba/06/18/rights.held/index.html#ixzz0sOV0CaV7

[dastrey]

How on earth are we going to replace his 9 points a game and terrible defensive rotations?!?

[EricB]

Yeah, and RJ's jumpshot was soooo money, right?

Good riddance. RJ sucked. Stick any Austin Toro in that spot, and he'll match RJ's numbers at a fraction of the price, and we're going to need that dough.

Yeah annnny Austin Toro.

Yup.

:lol

You people are unreal.

[Agloco]

Pop may not have a choice....... also, if we do sign Splitter, he is another young, inexperienced guy.

Hardly in the same sense as a Hairston, Anderson, Jerrels or Gee would be. It's a much sharper curve for those guys and they'll be play a position by committee that will demand solid performances from them regardless of circumstance. Splitter, on the other hand, will have McDyess and Blair to back him up.

[benefactor]

DPG with no love. :lol
Humor me. I've been up at ten till four the last two mornings in a row on consecutive 12hr shifts. I'm skimming and taking in about every third post.

[EricB]

that bench is garbage. tp and manu would be dead by christmas.

But we have Hairston!!!!

[Kindergarten Cop]

I look at this as a positive as it now gives the Spurs room to really do a trade.

But RJ's expiring contract was one of our best trade chips, so unless the Spurs do a sign and trade I don't really see how it affects their ability to do a trade.

[The Franchise]

James Anderson better be able to shoot the ball at the NBA level.


Couple that with Splitter arriving and finding a suitable point guard and some bench depth and this team could be ok as it is now.

I still fully believe this is your starting lineup next year:


C Splitter
PF Duncan
SF Manu
SG Hill
PG Parker

Top reserves:

Anderson
Blair
McDyess
(add in a wing)
(add in a point)


I'd take my chances with that as long as everyone stays healthy. If they dont then it really doesnt matter anyway.

Manu at sf and Hill at sg for the entire season is a recipe for disaster (and injury). You would be better served calling the remains of T-mac.

[Agloco]

I still fully believe this is your starting lineup next year:


C Splitter
PF Duncan
SF Manu
SG Hill
PG Parker

Top reserves:

Anderson
Blair
McDyess
(add in a wing)
(add in a point)



That's just depressing really.

[dbestpro]

Conspiracy Theory

Could RJ opting out be part of an elaborate plan to trade Parker. The team Parker goes to agrees to take RJ at a reduced annual salary to give Spurs cap relief and replace the SF and PG positions of the Spurs? RJ and TP in NY?

[Das Texan]

that bench is garbage. tp and manu would be dead by christmas.

that bench is dependent on anderson being an nba player.


and finding a wing and a point. Hopefully Temple could be that point. Surely there are enough options for a second wing on the team as it is or on the scrap heap.


you get a 5th big somewhere that is useful, maybe ian or maybe something else, who knows.

I dont see all the doom and gloom that most others see. It solves one major problem many saw with the Hill/Parker situation. Now you can start them both.

[DPG21920]

Humor me. I've been up at ten till four the last two mornings in a row on consecutive 12hr shifts. I'm skimming and taking in about every third post.

Them was just jokes.

[ohmwrecker]

Where did I say he was worthless? I said his production would not be hard to replace and if the Spurs could get a better fit, even with less overall talent, it would be a net gain.

Looks like you have nothing of significance to add.

Jesus . . . There is no way a tandem of Hairston/Gee is going to be good enough. We have (hopefully) the MLE going to Splitter. Which leaves the LLE to sign a free agent SF.

Do you honestly think the Spurs can find a FA SF better than RJ for the LLE?

[DPG21920]

Yeah annnny Austin Toro.

Yup.

:lol

You people are unreal.

Why are you forgetting the Spurs have the LLE to spend and possible trade scenarios?

[vander]

I hope all the hatred from the fans didn't factor into his decision, a GM willfully signed that contract, and other GM's willfully traded for him.

RJ I hope this decision works out for you :toast

[DPG21920]

Jesus . . . There is no way a tandem of Hairston/Gee is going to be good enough. We have (hopefully) the MLE going to Splitter. Which leaves the LLE to sign a free agent SF.

Do you honestly think the Spurs can find a FA SF better than RJ for the LLE?

Yes. With regards to fit. Not overall basketball talent.

[EricB]

Jesus . . . There is no way a tandem of Hairston/Gee is going to be good enough. We have (hopefully) the MLE going to Splitter. Which leaves the LLE to sign a free agent SF.

Do you honestly think the Spurs can find a FA SF better than RJ for the LLE?

Of course!!!

Its like NBA 2k whatever

just sign this guy and wha la its automatically better!

[Brazil]

The real panic mode would be:
- RJ leaves, no S&T
- Splitter not coming
- Pop doesn't trust Anderson and play him during garbage time
- Masterpiece is resigned
- Mason / Bonner still play 15 mn a game
- Hairston is our starting SF and Udoka is the back up
- At the end of the season TP signs with the lakers

[Zero_Twilight]

What about James Gist?

[bdictjames]

So can we sign Stoudemire?

[EricB]

Why are you forgetting the Spurs have the LLE to spend and possible trade scenarios?


The thought of a veteran like James Jones just makes me Giddy!!!

[Mugen]

the timing is the worst part of this situation especially if RJ caught RC with his thumb in his ass (not literally :toast )

[ohmwrecker]

Why are you forgetting the Spurs have the LLE to spend and possible trade scenarios?

Yeah, because the Spurs had so many willing trade partners at the deadline last season.

[024]

spurs better not give jefferson more than $8 million a year if they planned on giving him a more cap friendly contract.

[DPG21920]

The thought of a veteran like James Jones just makes me Giddy!!!

Yet RJ did :lol. I guess you missed last season. Getting a guy like JJ plus adding in younger guys might not improve the team over RJ, but it does not make the Spurs significantly worse if at all.

Certainly nothing to panic over imo.

[Brazil]

But we have Hairston!!!!

:lmao

[benefactor]

Them was just jokes.
Again...humor me. :)

[coyotes_geek]

that bench is garbage. tp and manu would be dead by christmas.

Yep. This team didn't have enough NBA talent on it to begin with. Losing RJ and replacing him with d-leaguers is nothing other than a step in the wrong direction.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, because the Spurs had so many willing trade partners at the deadline last season.

Spurs will have plenty of trade partners if they want to. Spurs have tradeable assets for bigger and smaller moves.

[ohmwrecker]

Yes. With regards to fit. Not overall basketball talent.

How do you know that RJ wouldn't have integrated himself better this season? It's more likely than a new player learning the system from scratch.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Another thing that I see everyone assuming in this thread is that Splitter will use up all of the MLE that the Spurs have to offer. I remember reading a few weeks ago a solid argument from Bruno (who appears to really know his stuff) stating that this is not the case. I realize that you cannot combine the exceptions, but this would open up a bit more space for the Spurs to offer FAs.

Anyways, is it really a given that it will take the full MLE to sign Splitter?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yep. This team didn't have enough NBA talent on it to begin with. Losing RJ and replacing him with d-leaguers is nothing other than a step in the wrong direction.

How many minutes do you foresee James Anderson getting next season?

[ohmwrecker]

Spurs will have plenty of trade partners if they want to. Spurs have tradeable assets for bigger and smaller moves.

Who? Hairston and Gee? Temple? This theory of yours has a pretty weak foundation.

[scottspurs]

Surely the Spurs FO had a plan in case this happened. I don't see why people are freaking out one way or the other. If he doesn't want to be here let him go. Better that than a guy on the roster just collecting a pay check not giving a damn about winning a ring. Yeah it sucks that you lose $15 mil of trade asset, but I trust the FO. They will have plan.

[bigfan]

12 ppg last season. We can get that out of one of our many scrubs. Adios RJ and dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[ulosturedge]

The real panic mode would be:
- RJ leaves, no S&T
- Splitter not coming
- Pop doesn't trust Anderson and play him during garbage time
- Masterpiece is resigned
- Mason / Bonner still play 15 mn a game
- Hairston is our starting SF and Udoka is the back up
- At the end of the season TP signs with the lakers


Lets stay away from the doomsday scenarios for now :(

[DPG21920]

How do you know that RJ wouldn't have integrated himself better this season? It's more likely than a new player learning the system from scratch.

Because the system and RJ are not changing. Someone who is a better fit (better 3 PT shooter and/or defender) can come in right away and do better (see RMJ in his first year).

I don't see RJ integrating himself any better because he was such a bad fit.

[ohmwrecker]

Anyways, is it really a given that it will take the full MLE to sign Splitter?

Seems to be the conventional wisdom.

[rayray2k8]

:lol @ the panic princesses

RJ didn't add points (9 points per game at 33 per in the playoffs), didn't add defense, didn't add hustle, didn't do much of anything. He wasn't who the Spurs turned to for points when the big 3 weren't clicking, it was Hill.

Who cares so much about 9 ppg in the playoffs with mediocre defense and zero floor spacing? Laugh at guys like Hairston and Anderson all you want, but I'm confident they could do similar but with more hunger and hustle.

Besides . . .

For all we know, this could be the move that helps the Spurs sign Splitter.

With RJ on the books, that makes every dollar they offered Splitter x2 due to the tax, and for all we know was the biggest hurdle in the negotiations, cheaping out on Splitter due to not wanting to effectively pay about 11.5 million a year for him. That's a lot of money in this economy for the league's poorest owner whose fortunes are tied to a struggling construction industry. This is the same team after all that cheaped out on Scola and didn't even want to give him Bonner money. Only after getting humiliated in the first round did the Spurs and Holt come to their senses.

Now that the tax is no longer an obstacle, they can offer Splitter the full MLE for effectively half the cost of what it would have been with RJ.

Spurs with Splitter and no RJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spurs with just 30 year-old RJ's 9 points, uninspired play, and lazy defense and no Splitter.

The only downside is that it gives Pop an excuse to bring back THE CENTERPIECE.

This is where the spurs stand. I'm more worried about getting Splitter than whatever RJ decides to do and how it affects the spurs.

And i think you're referring to Eric B btw.

Some of the spurs posters are starting to shit on him. :lol
Jefferson was worthless in the Suns series, but with him opting out, that does leave the spurs having to fill in another hole in the summer.

But for now, spurs MUST sign Splitter.

[DPG21920]

Who? Hairston and Gee? Temple? This theory of yours has a pretty weak foundation.

Parker, Hill, Blair. Whatever direction they want to take the team (Rebuild, tweak...) they have options. And yes, the guys you mentioned with partially/unguaranteed contracts are assets.

[coyotes_geek]

How many minutes do you foresee James Anderson getting next season?

With RJ, or a legitimate NBA starting SF replacement acquired in an S&T for RJ, probably 10-15. Without, 20-25.

[TDMVPDPOY]

James gists looms

[ohmwrecker]

Because the system and RJ are not changing. Someone who is a better fit (better 3 PT shooter and/or defender) can come in right away and do better (see RMJ in his first year).

I don't see RJ integrating himself any better because he was such a bad fit.

Roger Mason Jr?! That's your example? The dude had half a decent year for the Spurs at best. I saw flashes of RJ integrating into the system last season.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Seems to be the conventional wisdom.

To be fair, wouldn't you say that it was "conventional wisdom" that there was less than a 1% chance of RJ opting out of $15M this upcoming year before the news broke?

[coyotes_geek]

Another thing that I see everyone assuming in this thread is that Splitter will use up all of the MLE that the Spurs have to offer. I remember reading a few weeks ago a solid argument from Bruno (who appears to really know his stuff) stating that this is not the case. I realize that you cannot combine the exceptions, but this would open up a bit more space for the Spurs to offer FAs.

Anyways, is it really a given that it will take the full MLE to sign Splitter?

It's a given that whatever would be left over from the MLE isn't going to be enough to acquire a legitimate starter to replace RJ.

[team-work]

The Spurs need not to find another former All-Star SF. They just need someone who can mesh with the team. If Parker stays, it seems logical to go back to the formula of surrounding TP & TD (and Splitter if he comes) with spot-up shooters who can defend, rather than asking Parker to adjust and become a pass-first PG.

[DPG21920]

Roger Mason Jr?! That's your example? The dude had half a decent year for the Spurs at best. I saw flashes of RJ integrating into the system last season.

RMJ had a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better first year than RJ did. Way better. Not surprising because he could shoot.

A half decent year is better than the sparse "flashes" you saw. Spurs won about the same amount of games the year before RJ.

The only difference in the playoffs was a healthy Manu and Hill getting more time.

[Vertical]

Congrats Spurs...

[Agloco]

12 ppg last season. We can get that out of one of our many scrubs. Adios RJ and dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Got damn the stupid is just oozing out of the cracks tonight. Really? Any random scrub can average 12 ppg? :rolleyes

[Das Texan]

This is where the spurs stand. I'm more worried about getting Splitter than whatever RJ decides to do and how it affects the spurs.

And i think you're referring to Eric B btw.

Some of the spurs posters are starting to shit on him. :lol
Jefferson was worthless in the Suns series, but with him opting out, that does leave the spurs having to fill in another hole in the summer.

But for now, spurs MUST sign Splitter.



Splitter was a must sign when word leaked he wanted to really come over this year. Signing Splitter solves a major hole for this team and may allow for the Spurs to get back to playing Spurs basketball at least in a roundabout way.

[TDMVPDPOY]

we lack a sf, makes trading parker to the pacers for granger + ford is real sense

or to memphis for gay + conley....do it

[ohmwrecker]

Parker, Hill, Blair. Whatever direction they want to take the team (Rebuild, tweak...) they have options. And yes, the guys you mentioned with partially/unguaranteed contracts are assets.

Trading Parker, Hill or Blair will just create another hole in the roster and no one is interested in our "partially/unguaranteed contracts".

[angelbelow]

The real panic mode would be:
- RJ leaves, no S&T
- Splitter not coming
- Pop doesn't trust Anderson and play him during garbage time
- Masterpiece is resigned
- Mason / Bonner still play 15 mn a game
- Hairston is our starting SF and Udoka is the back up
- At the end of the season TP signs with the lakers

lol panic mode would be an understatement if all these points were to happen.

[coyotes_geek]

Got damn the stupid is just oozing out of the cracks tonight. Really? Any random scrub can average 12 ppg? :rolleyes

No kidding.

[UnWantedTheory]

The thing is that pile of dog shit may be valuable for others, specially since it's a expiring.

Fertilizer for future growth.

[ducks]

splittler needs to be signed for a 3 year deal so spurs have full bird rights
or can spurs get him to accept half the mle and option out after 2 years? then get paid
spurs then have some money to get a sf

[Das Texan]

The real winner tonight though is Peter Holt


I'm sure he is doing doughnuts in his Holt equipment tonight.

[ducks]

splittler needs to be signed for a 3 year deal so spurs have full bird rights
or can spurs get him to accept half the mle and option out after 2 years? then get paid
spurs then have some money to get a sf

[DPG21920]

Trading Parker, Hill or Blair will just create another hole in the roster and no one is interested in our "partially/unguaranteed contracts".

Link? I keep giving you plausible answers. You give nothing of substance. I don't think trading one of those guys necessarily creates another hole (obviously if they are trading TP they are rebuilding so the point is moot there).

But Spurs have a decent amount of guards. Moving Hill, while he is a very good player, for a something of value, could again be a net gain.

[Agloco]

To be fair, wouldn't you say that it was "conventional wisdom" that there was less than a 1% chance of RJ opting out of $15M this upcoming year before the news broke?

Considering that a max contract under the new CBA was rumored to be around 8-10 million per, no. Makes sense for RJ to secure a 3-4 year deal around 6-7 mill per now. Under the new umbrella he'd command around 3 per max, assuming he had a decent season in the upcoming year.

[scottspurs]

I think it will be a lost easier to convince a free agent SF to sign for the LLE now that their assured the starting job with RJ gone. I believe this opens things up a little bit for the spurs.

[ohmwrecker]

RMJ had a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better first year than RJ did. Way better. Not surprising because he could shoot.

A half decent year is better than the sparse "flashes" you saw. Spurs won about the same amount of games the year before RJ.

The only difference in the playoffs was a healthy Manu and Hill getting more time.

How many ppgs, rbds and blocks did RMJ average that year? The only reason everybody is so down on RJ is that his production per $$$ ratio wasn't equitable. Not really his fault that. He doubled Bowen's offensive production in his last two years AND out-rebounded AND averaged more blocks than Oberto and Thomas.

[Buddy Holly]

Really?

Other teams banging down the door for Malik Hairston are they?

No, I think they're banging on the door for the cleverly sarcastic wit of yours.

[Agloco]

How many minutes do you foresee James Anderson getting next season?

20-ish during the regular season. If he proves to be a sharpshooter, then Pop will extend those minutes through the playoffs. If he's pedestrian, Pop will reduce his minutes to around 10-12, as per standard playoff rookie protocol (see DeJuan Blair).

[TwelveGs210]

Ok..question..if the Spurs clear the 15 mil off the books, couldn't holt just go right back into the luxury tax if he chose? I mean, if he was already facing the chance of having to pay his sorry ass this year, then why not go like 10 Mil back into it and get something with value? This of course unless there is some kind of regulation about doing this kind of thing.

[SpursTillTheEnd]

eric b i bet you where one of the people who thinks dairy queen is better then whataburger, shut the hell up hariston>rj

[DPG21920]

How many ppgs, rbds and blocks did RMJ average that year? The only reason everybody is so down on RJ is that his production per $$$ ratio wasn't equitable. Not really his fault that. He out doubled Bowen's offensive production in his last two years AND out-rebounded AND averaged more blocks than Oberto and Thomas.

Yeah, and the Spurs still won the same amount of games and ended up getting swept by the Suns. He was a terrible fit and if you can't see that, then I don't know what to say.

Feel free to have your opinion and freak out. I don't see this as a big deal basketball wise. I see it as a great deal financially for the team. Thats it.

We will see how things play out.

[TDMVPDPOY]

splittler needs to be signed for a 3 year deal so spurs have full bird rights
or can spurs get him to accept half the mle and option out after 2 years? then get paid
spurs then have some money to get a sf

MLE value sounds about right for his price anyway since top3 lottery picks earn that much anyway...i see nothing wrong if he thinks his worth MLE since he was projected to be a lottery top3 pick had he declared a few years earlier...

anyway splitter at MLE is better then what we spend on rasho when he was a FA 7-8m a season for clumsy looking guy on the court....

[Kamala]

What a total bust the Jefferson move turned out to be. I would have never imagined this last summer. I can't believe he opted out of the 15 million. Fawk this is shocking!

[Buddy Holly]

The thought of a veteran like James Jones just makes me Giddy!!!

Let's be honest, a picture of a cheeseburger and a side of fries makes you giddy.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Considering that a max contract under the new CBA was rumored to be around 8-10 million per, no. Makes sense for RJ to secure a 3-4 year deal around 6-7 mill per now. Under the new umbrella he'd command around 3 per max, assuming he had a decent season in the upcoming year.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense now to consider it, but virtually everyone (posters/pundits/talking heads/etc) was saying that there was no way in hell that Jefferson walks away from $15M/yr before he announced it this evening - heck, some are questioning whether he'll make $15M for the remainder of his career.

[SpursTillTheEnd]

lmao buddy holly nigga clownin

[ohmwrecker]

Link? I keep giving you plausible answers. You give nothing of substance. I don't think trading one of those guys necessarily creates another hole (obviously if they are trading TP they are rebuilding so the point is moot there).

If we are rebuilding then . . . sure trade TP. Maybe Tim and Manu can retire and the Spurs can be a perennial bottom dwelling lottery team for years to come. Why even bother signing Splitter? Fuck it, right?

[Agloco]

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense now to consider it, but virtually everyone (posters/pundits/talking heads/etc) was saying that there was no way in hell that Jefferson walks away from $15M/yr before he announced it this evening - heck, some are questioning whether he'll make $15M for the remainder of his career.

Oh, he'll do that and then some. By today's salary scale, most teams would be willing to blow the MLE on him (6.5 mil approx). The unknowns of the future landscape are causing more players to opt out than "conventional wisdom" would usually dictate (see Dirk, etc, etc.). Players want security, RJ is no different.

[DesignatedT]

1 hour sons.

[ohmwrecker]

Yeah, and the Spurs still won the same amount of games and ended up getting swept by the Suns. He was a terrible fit and if you can't see that, then I don't know what to say.

Feel free to have your opinion and freak out. I don't see this as a big deal basketball wise. I see it as a great deal financially for the team. Thats it.

We will see how things play out.

First, I'm not freaking out, I am being realistic. I am willing to listen to ideas that make just a little bit of sense, but I am not getting that from you.

Secondly, it does nothing for the team financially but take them out of the luxury tax, which they will probably have to get right back into if they hope to compete at the same level this season.

[DPG21920]

If we are rebuilding then . . . sure trade TP. Maybe Tim and Manu can retire and the Spurs can be a perennial bottom dwelling lottery team for years to come. Why even bother signing Splitter? Fuck it, right?

What are you going on about? The Spurs have different options no matter how they want to proceed. They should still sign Splitter and try to win now. Losing RJ does not hurt that very much if at all imo for the reasons I have outlined.

[Kindergarten Cop]

1 hour sons.

What's going to be difficult is that we likely won't hear anything until July 8th at the earliest, which is when FAs can begin officially signing. I hope I'm wrong and we know what will happen much sooner than that.:depressed

[DPG21920]

First, I'm not freaking out, I am being realistic. I am willing to listen to ideas that make just a little bit of sense, but I am not getting that from you.

:lol Ok.


Secondly, it does nothing for the team financially but take them out of the luxury tax, which they will probably have to get right back into if they hope to compete at the same level this season.

It does help the Spurs. Maybe if you read it from Timvp's post on how (a while back) you will love it.

[Agloco]

Ok..question..if the Spurs clear the 15 mil off the books, couldn't holt just go right back into the luxury tax if he chose? I mean, if he was already facing the chance of having to pay his sorry ass this year, then why not go like 10 Mil back into it and get something with value? This of course unless there is some kind of regulation about doing this kind of thing.

Official Info:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Talk about the Spurs specific situation:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125187

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol a lot of overreacting IMO..this could be bad, but it's not a panic situation..let it play out first..I didn't read past the 2nd page, so I'll probably repeat some points that others have made..

I thought Jefferson would work out due to the fact that he shot a great % from 3s in the previous season(I assumed it wasn't an anomaly) and the fact that he was once a good defender(I assumed he could still be one with a reduced offensive role)..I was very wrong..

Jefferson had a disgustingly bad 13 PER this season, which shows his statistical output..his efficiency wasn't bad, but he shot 31% from 3, which won't work in this system(or any system in the NBA where you aren't one of the main options, TBH)..

In the playoffs, he had a horrid 10 PER, while shooting 20% from 3s..the other team purposely left him open, as Jarred Dudley admitted, and it really hurt the Spurs offense..

How did he make up for it?..he didn't, really IMO..he was a decent rebounder, 2nd best wing rebounder on the team behind Hairston(statistically)..defensively?..he was usually horrible..he had some games where he played good help D, and he had some games where he played good individual D(usually on big SG/SF types like Pierce and Joe Johnson), but he was usually pretty bad..he missed an amazing amount of rotations, and he often didn't provide any energy for the Spurs..

In regards to creating offense, 70% of his points were assisted..an extremely high number for a wing player..the only players that created less offense for the Spurs this season were Bonner, McDyess and Bogans..

Jefferson had more FGA outside of 10+ feet than he did inside, which speaks on how poor of a fit he is..with this team, he has to spend a lot of time outside of his comfort zone..to allow Jefferson to get in a comfort zone, it requires him to have the ball in his hands a lot, which isn't a possibility for a team that wants to win more than 30 games..

So basically, for the Spurs, Richard Jefferson was a role player that couldn't shoot and couldn't defend..how does that make any sense?..it's not difficult to find an upgrade over that..



So potential negatives that could come out of this:

-Spurs re-sign Jefferson for longer..this would be horrible and wouldn't make any sense for the Spurs..

-The Spurs won't find a better talent..this is a given, it will have to be accepted..the Spurs won't find a guy with more talent or with a bigger name than Jefferson..

-It creates a bigger question mark for a position that already had plenty of question marks to begin with..

-No ability for a trade at the deadline..

Potential positives:

-It forces the Spurs' FO to be aggressive..

-It makes room for a possible better fit, which would come in the form of shooting + defending, which isn't that difficult to find..anybody that can play D and shoot 30+ % from 3 is an upgrade over Jefferson..

-This could lead to a S&T..


If Hairston and/or Gee can shoot 30%+ from 3, they are upgrades over Jefferson from a fitting standpoint..if the Spurs get a Barnes or James Jones type, they would pretty much be an instant upgrade over Jefferson from a fit-standpoint..

I don't think some people understand how bad Jefferson was this season..

RJ has the better peak ability than anybody the Spurs could potentially acquire(outside of a trade), but from a consistency standpoint, it would be difficult to NOT find an upgrade..if the Spurs can get a good defensive wing, which isn't difficult to find(as long as they aren't looking for 30+ year olds), it's an upgrade over Jefferson from a fit-standpoint..Jefferson didn't consistently give the Spurs anything..

[jesterbobman]

I haven't read the whole thread, but the big winner is Holt's chequebook. It does however, put us into a bit of a limbo situation, as we don't have a competent SF without him, and our MLE will probably be used on Tiago. We don't have a way of replacing RJ without a Sign and trade, because as much as he was overpaid for his production, it was still better than what we could get with the LLE.

[DPG21920]

I'm not too worried about the situation the Spurs find themselves in. If RJ didn't fit in the locker room or if they believe he's a horrible fit, they have a good chance to S&T him. If RJ leaves and the Spurs have to replace him with a minimum-type player, at least that player will either be a better shooter or defender than RJ.

The main problem with RJ is his defense and shooting are weakspots ... and those are the two areas the Spurs need their small forward to stand out. If Splitter comes and TP regains his footing, the Spurs can cover the points they'll miss out with RJ leaving. In that sense, a role player who can either defend or shoot lights out isn't a bad option.

Now if the Spurs miss out on Splitter, I'll really start to worry. No Splitter and no RJ and the Spurs might as well start rebuilding.


First, I'm not freaking out, I am being realistic. I am willing to listen to ideas that make just a little bit of sense, but I am not getting that from you.

Secondly, it does nothing for the team financially but take them out of the luxury tax, which they will probably have to get right back into if they hope to compete at the same level this season.

There, Timvp said something similar. Does that comfort you, or is he not making any sense?

[ohmwrecker]

Losing RJ does not hurt that very much if at all imo for the reasons I have outlined.

How does losing your starting SF and a tradeable asset for nothing not hurt just a little? Even the biggest RJ hater has got to admit that this was worst case scenario type of situation.

[DPG21920]

:lol a lot of overreacting IMO..

I thought Jefferson would work out due to the fact that he shot a great % from 3s in the previous season(I assumed it wasn't an anomaly) and the fact that he was once a good defender(I assumed he could still be one with a reduced offensive role)..I was very wrong..

Jefferson had a disgustingly bad 13 PER this season, which shows his statistically output..his efficiency wasn't bad, but he shot 31% from 3, which won't work in this system(or any system in the NBA where you aren't one of the main options, TBH)..

In the playoffs, he had a horrid 10 PER, while shooting 20% from 3s..the other team purposely left him open, as Jarred Dudley admitted, and it really hurt the Spurs offense..

How did he make up for it?..he didn't, really IMO..he was a decent rebounder, 2nd best wing rebounder on the team behind Hairston(statistically)..defensively?..he was usually horrible..he had some games where he played good help D, and he had some games where he played good individual D(usually on big SG/SF types like Pierce and Joe Johnson), but he was usually pretty bad..he missed an amazing amount of rotations, and he often didn't provide any energy for the Spurs..

In regards to creating offense, 70% of his points were assisted..an extremely high number for a wing player..the only players that created less offense for the Spurs this season were Bonner, McDyess and Bogans..

Jefferson had more FGA outside of 10+ feet than he did inside, which speaks on how poor of a fit he is..with this team, he has to spend a lot of time outside of his comfort zone..to allow Jefferson to get in a comfort zone, it requires him to have the ball in his hands a lot, which isn't a possibility for a team that wants to win more than 30 games..



So potential negatives that could come out of this:

-Spurs re-sign Jefferson for longer..this would be horrible and wouldn't make any sense for the Spurs..

-The Spurs won't find a better talent..this is a given, it will have to be accepted..the Spurs won't find a guy with more talent or with a bigger name than Jefferson..

-It creates a bigger question mark for a position that already had plenty of question marks to begin with..

-No ability for a trade at the deadline..

Potential positives:

-It forces the Spurs' FO to be aggressive..

-It makes room for a possible better fit, which would come in the form of shooting + defending, which isn't that difficult to find..anybody that can play D and shoot 30+ % from 3 is an upgrade over Jefferson..

-This could lead to a S&T..

How people don't see this is beyond me. I get their concerns, but to completely dismiss this is being over emotional and freaking out.

[DPG21920]

How does losing your starting SF and a tradeable asset for nothing not hurt just a little? Even the biggest RJ hater has got to admit that this was worst case scenario type of situation.

1) He is still a tradeable asset.

2) This is far from the worst case scenario.

3) I am not saying it might not hurt a little, I just think it has little bearing on anything overall and I see potential to come out better.

[Harry Callahan]

Dick just became Derek Anderson 2.0. The Spurs did a sign and trade with him and got the great Steve Smith. Scumbag.

[ohmwrecker]

There, Timvp said something similar. Does that comfort you, or is he not making any sense?

I'm not really looking for comfort, but no, it doesn't. I'm not really a blind worshiper of Timvp. I don't think the situation is hopeless either. You are right, there are options and scenarios that could turn this into a positive deal, but solutions like having Malik fucking Haiston as the starting SF is just absurd.

[ohmwrecker]

Your ability to quote people who are more articulate than you is not impressive.

[timtonymanurich]

How on earth are we going to replace his 9 points a game and terrible defensive rotations?!?


LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT!!!! :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

[DPG21920]

Your ability to argue while bringing nothing to the table is even more impressive. LMAO at the more articulate comment. I have laid it out in plain English for you, but you are in panic mode so you choose to ignore it.

I have answered every single one of your little shots and questions with the same exact stuff people are commenting on. They have said nothing more than I have really.

[ohmwrecker]

1) He is still a tradeable asset.

Well, he could be, but it's not a sure thing.


2) This is far from the worst case scenario.

As of right now, it is. It could turn into something better, but I'm not talking about "what ifs" right now


3) I am not saying it might not hurt a little, I just think it has little bearing on anything overall and I see potential to come out better.

You may be right . . . I see the potential too, but I didn't see anything worthwhile coming from your end. It's possible I missed something.

[ezau]

It's time to get somebody who fits. Fuck RJ and his overpaid ass.

[DPG21920]

If we are rebuilding then . . . sure trade TP. Maybe Tim and Manu can retire and the Spurs can be a perennial bottom dwelling lottery team for years to come. Why even bother signing Splitter? Fuck it, right?


How does losing your starting SF and a tradeable asset for nothing not hurt just a little? Even the biggest RJ hater has got to admit that this was worst case scenario type of situation.




First, I'm not freaking out, I am being realistic. I am willing to listen to ideas that make just a little bit of sense, but I am not getting that from you.

Secondly, it does nothing for the team financially but take them out of the luxury tax, which they will probably have to get right back into if they hope to compete at the same level this season.


Here is someone I am quoting that is definitely not more articulate than I am.

[Waps1980]

We'll just have to clear out bonner and mason to get under the cap.
Guys like Hairston, Tample and the like were more value on the court anyway.
And with Anderson filling a 3 point spot and surely no worse than bonner at a pressure 3.
This will free up a further 7 mill for us.

Does this work or don't I know what I'm talking about?

[rayray2k8]

34 pages of this shit?? :wow
This will look silly on us if it turns out to be a good thing for the spurs. :lol Fill in your prediction here ______________________________.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not really looking for comfort, but no, it doesn't. I'm not really a blind worshiper of Timvp. I don't think the situation is hopeless either. You are right, there are options and scenarios that could turn this into a positive deal, but solutions like having Malik fucking Haiston as the starting SF is just absurd.

Who cares who they start? If Anderson plays 20 mpg and Hairston plays 11 (a whopping 5 more than last season) then you have replaced RJ's minutes.

Really what we need from the 3 position is perimeter defense and 3 point shooting. Thats my main concern here because while Hairston is a better defender in pretty much every way than RJ, he was putrid from 3.

Anderson is not a noted defender but I would think that they can replace RJs 13 pts and 4 rpg per 36 mins.

[DPG21920]

Well, he could be, but it's not a sure thing.

How was it a sure thing with him here? Are you sure other teams would want him? Because you said teams did not want our unguaranteed contracts. Would the Spurs be willing to take on a longer contract, because "conventional" wisdom says that is what they would get for RJ.




As of right now, it is. It could turn into something better, but I'm not talking about "what ifs" right now

Umm, yes you are. This is all hypothetical. Just like your RJ morphing into a better fit next year scenario.



You may be right . . . I see the potential too, but I didn't see anything worthwhile coming from your end. It's possible I missed something.

You just said you could see the potential. Which is exactly what I have said. LOL you.

[johnnySpurs]

It's official. God is a Spurs fan.

[admiralsnackbar]

How was it a sure thing with him here?

Because there are always mis-managed teams that want emergency cap- relief, and expiring albatross contracts are the best way to get that.

[TD 21]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnuKqUuykq3gaNrF_YZGZh68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

[timtonymanu]

34 pages of this shit?? :wow
This will look silly on us if it turns out to be a good thing for the spurs. :lol Fill in your prediction here ______________________________.

Last year posters thought the RJ trade would be successful. It wasnt.
This year posters (myself included) are freaking out because RJ opted out. Maybe it will work out for this team.

Reverse jinxing at its best.

[spectator]

Who cares who they start? If Anderson plays 20 mpg and Hairston plays 11 (a whopping 5 more than last season) then you have replaced RJ's minutes.

Really what we need from the 3 position is perimeter defense and 3 point shooting. Thats my main concern here because while Hairston is a better defender in pretty much every way than RJ, he was putrid from 3.

Anderson is not a noted defender but I would think that they can replace RJs 13 pts and 4 rpg per 36 mins.

anderson also appeared to be able to create his own shot in college. idk how that transitions to the nba, but i can vividly remember my feeling of despair when rj would go 1 on 1 and brick a tough shot. let's face it - rj can not create his own shot.

[DPG21920]

Because there are always mis-managed teams that want emergency cap- relief, and expiring albatross contracts are the best way to get that.

So you are saying the Spurs were going to take on a long term contract for sure? Most people think not.

[ohmwrecker]

Here is someone I am quoting that is definitely not more articulate than I am.

That first comment was obvious sarcasm and I don't think your block quoting me back to myself is helping your articulation argument, but whatever makes you feel good, man.

I was one of the first people on the thread (while everyone was blindly celebrating) to bring some reality to this deal. So, I think I did bring something to the table. I understand that there are scenarios that may take place that could turn this into a positive for the Spurs. However, nobody knows at this point, what that will be.

I'm not in panic mode. That is a pretty wild assumption on your part.

[Agloco]

We'll just have to clear out bonner and mason to get under the cap.


They're FA's, nothing to clear out here.



Guys like Hairston, Tample and the like were more value on the court anyway.


I disagree, but that's a matter of opinion.



And with Anderson filling a 3 point spot and surely no worse than bonner at a pressure 3.


Bonner was a 4....... Anderson is a 2. Different positions, but yeah hopefully Anderson can bury a few when they matter.



This will free up a further 7 mill for us.


How do you figure?



Does this work or don't I know what I'm talking about?

An A for effort........ :toast

[admiralsnackbar]

let's face it - rj can not create his own shot.

Which is why a S&T with him is an overblown asset. His value is way, way down.

[Agloco]

Who cares who they start? If Anderson plays 20 mpg and Hairston plays 11 (a whopping 5 more than last season) then you have replaced RJ's minutes.

Really what we need from the 3 position is perimeter defense and 3 point shooting. Thats my main concern here because while Hairston is a better defender in pretty much every way than RJ, he was putrid from 3.

Anderson is not a noted defender but I would think that they can replace RJs 13 pts and 4 rpg per 36 mins.

Too bad the two guys you just described are 2's. Not smart for a small team looking for some size now is it?

[murpjf88]

If Jefferson leaves, I would be happy going after Salmons.

[admiralsnackbar]

So you are saying the Spurs were going to take on a long term contract for sure? Most people think not.

No offense, but speaking for "most people" seems like little more than a rhetorical trick. We did it with RJ, and I think we'd do it again with the right player.

[DPG21920]

If Jefferson leaves, I would be happy going after Salmons.

They can't unless Splitter turns them down. Even then. No chance.

[DesignatedT]

If Jefferson leaves, I would be happy going after Salmons.

we have no money............................................. .......

[DPG21920]

No offense, but speaking for "most people" seems like little more than a rhetorical trick. We did it with RJ, and I think we'd do it again with the right player.

It is far from certain the Spurs could move RJ. From both sides.

[murpjf88]

They can't unless Splitter turns them down. Even then. No chance.

Too expensive? Wouldn't Rj free up cash?

[eyeh8u]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 437

thats alot

[ohmwrecker]

How was it a sure thing with him here? Are you sure other teams would want him? Because you said teams did not want our unguaranteed contracts. Would the Spurs be willing to take on a longer contract, because "conventional" wisdom says that is what they would get for RJ.
Well, it's better than him opting out for nothing at all, right? You have to agree with that?





Umm, yes you are. This is all hypothetical. Just like your RJ morphing into a better fit next year scenario.

I only said that it was more or just as likely as a brand new LLE level player being integrated.



You just said you could see the potential. Which is exactly what I have said. LOL you.

Yes, I do. None of which involve Hairston/Gee swing rotation or a LLE level player being a starter, however.

[Agloco]

If Jefferson leaves, I would be happy going after Salmons.

And they do this how?

[admiralsnackbar]

It is far from certain the Spurs could move RJ. From both sides.

Perhaps. It is even further certain now.

[ElNono]

I'm actually happy about this news. Sure, if we can do a S&T, great.

RJ was simply not a good fit, and 12 points & 4 rebounds in 30 mins is not an insurmountable production. Plus we would have wasted half a season showcasing him so we could trade his ass for something unknown. At least now we have more flexibility going forward, and a full season to work a few guys into the position.

Good riddance, RJ.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Too bad the two guys you just described are 2's. Not smart for a small team looking for some size now is it?

Hairston has played the three pretty much his entire Spurs career. He is 6-6 220. Anderson is 6-6 210.

In comparison Ime Udoka who played the three for us went 6-6 215.

They are all swingmen.

[ceperez]

Too bad the two guys you just described are 2's. Not smart for a small team looking for some size now is it?

Unfortunate, the only other guy is Alonzo Gee, he's more of a SF (though claims to be a guard) however he's only 6'6" and probably has as reliable a 3 point shot as Hairston.

Definitely need a guy like Posey, able to defend Dirk at the perimeter, able to hit the wide open 3. RJ could never fit this needs, however are there other Free Agents out there that fit this description?

[AFBlue]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnuKqUuykq3gaNrF_YZGZh68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

Yeesh.

[ohmwrecker]

Hairston has played the three pretty much his entire Spurs career. He is 6-6 220. Anderson is 6-6 210.

In comparison Ime Udoka who played the three for us went 6-6 215.

They are all swingmen.

Udoka?! Yikes! This is just out of control.

[spectator]

has alonzo gee done anything at nba level or is this discussion based on d-league stats/performance? there are a lot of players who perform at d-league level who have no business in the nba. coby karl and ian come to mind.

[ohmwrecker]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnuKqUuykq3gaNrF_YZGZh68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

This is the best possible thing that could happen. Especially if it leads to a S&T.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Udoka?! Yikes! This is just out of control.

Are you daft? I am talking about what we have used at the three in the past. Even with Bowen who went 6-7 200, they would routinely put him on 2s and leave Manu or whoever else on the opponents 3s.

The point is that this idea that 6-6 215ish is too small to play the 3 in the Spurs system is flat ass wrong.

[intlspurshk]

Now trading TP make sense if he brings Rudy, Batum or Danny Granger and a 2nd tier PG
This should not be considered a rebuilding move

However, if SPURS keep TP, then let's sign Dorrell Wright. He is very close to a Bruce Bowen clone player (play defense and shot 3). Hopefully, Heats does not have time to negotiate contract with him while recruiting big FA

The worst move is to resign RJ w/o a sign and trade

[Waps1980]

They're FA's, nothing to clear out here.
Bonner was a 4....... Anderson is a 2. Different positions, but yeah hopefully Anderson can bury a few when they matter.
How do you figure?
An A for effort........ :toast
If Splitter comes we won't have such a need for Bonner he really only plays like a 4 in defense anyway.
on espn if the salary's are correct Bonner=3.256mill Mason=3.78mill

[buttsR4rebounding]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnuKqUuykq3gaNrF_YZGZh68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

This is exactly what's happening. I'll bet he signs a three year deal around $10 million a year to coincide with Manu's deal. That's like getting him for slightly more than the MLE the last 2 years and lowers the luxury tax hit this year by 5 to 6 million almost paying for one of those years. Everyone gets something out of that. Then they both come off the books at the same time. Timmy probably retires, Splitter is ready for a bigger contract if he pans out, etc.

[MaNu4Tres]

People really under rate the production he brought to the Spurs as the 4th option.

Sure he wasn't the "picture perfect fit", and sure he didn't average the 20 points he averaged in Milwaukee, but those 20 points per game was impossible to produce with the scarce amount of opportunities he had playing behind the big 3.

Even if he was the 4th option, he still scored in double digits in 58 games last year (more than 15 points per game in 32 outings). And was instrumental in many victories, even in the playoffs.

About his defense, I know he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the defensive end, but the guy showed progress as the season progressed; not so much on the ball, but off the ball; especially in putting in the effort and contesting shots around the rim more effectively than any big man outside of Duncan. I'm not saying he was Dikembe Mutombo by any means; but he was progressively active in this regard, especially in the last few months of the season.

Overall saying he didn't do anything is foolish to say.

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.

There were other reasons why the Spurs failed when it was all said and done. Most notably, the lack of having an established clear cut 5th wing ( part of it was Pop's fault) and the lack of interior defense that doomed the Spurs in the end. Not so much Jefferson.

Pop stubbornly made the wrong choice for the team by investing in the wrong players (Mason, Bogans) all damn year. Even when these two players were atrocious for the last 3 months of the season, Pop didn't budge and stubbornly played the law of averages game. In the end, Pop put the team in a very vulnerable position from a depth standpoint by stubbornly giving Mason and Bogans the responsibility as the 5th wing. It made no sense to do this and still doesn't til this day.

As a result of Mason and Bogans maintaining their atrocious status, the Spurs back court and Jefferson were forced way too many minutes and it showed in their 4th quarter execution down the stretch ( even in the Dallas series ).

Pop should have given more responsibility and prepared Hairston or Temple somewhere in the last 2 months of the regular season, when Mason and Bogans were consistently horrid. (Believe it or not, Hairston and Temple had more productive minutes than Mason and Bogans did all season; even if they played less minutes. )

If Hairston or Temple would have panned out as a 5th wing, Spurs could have stretched their bench enough, which would've given Manu more gas at the end of games to " go for the throat", and Hill wouldn't have had as big of a responsibility offensively ( because of Manu and Tony having less but more efficient minutes, and more efficient touches). But Pop was too stubborn to find this out.

By no means am I blaming the year on Popovich, but he certainly could have made different decisions in regards of the rotation that could have put the Spurs in a better position to compete in the playoffs. Many people just point at R.J and blame him. I couldn't disagree more.

Hopefully now Splitter can come in to help the interior defense and hopefully Spurs can find a respectable replacement for R.J via trade ( less likely) or for the LLE. If not then I hope Hairston, Gee and Anderson are ready to contribute.

[TD 21]

Everyone assuming Jefferson is gone shouldn't get their hopes up just yet. As I was alluding too earlier, there's a good chance Jefferson, like Davis in '08, did this knowing what he's doing and not just on a whim or because he wasn't thrilled with the situation last season.

Watch the Spurs sign him to a 3 year/$24 million dollar contract.

[ohmwrecker]

Are you daft? I am talking about what we have used at the three in the past. Even with Bowen who went 6-7 200, they would routinely put him on 2s and leave Manu or whoever else on the opponents 3s.

The point is that this idea that 6-6 215ish is too small to play the 3 in the Spurs system is flat ass wrong.

It's too small NOW is the point. The spurs desperately need some length at that spot. How is that not obvious?

[Mel_13]

Everyone assuming Jefferson is gone shouldn't get their hopes up just yet. As I was alluding too earlier, there's a good chance Jefferson, like Davis in '08, did this knowing what he's doing and not just on a whim or because he wasn't thrilled with the situation last season.

Watch the Spurs sign him to a 3 year/$24 million dollar contract.

Assuming that the Spurs stay under the luxury tax in 2010-11, converting 1yr/15M to 3yrs/24M would represent a huge savings for the Spurs. Even at 4yrs/32M, it's close to cost neutral.

[DesignatedT]

I sure hope he resigns for 3 years. that would be a great move IMO.

[ohmwrecker]

Finally! People are starting to make some sense.

[UnWantedTheory]

Got damn the stupid is just oozing out of the cracks tonight. Really? Any random scrub can average 12 ppg? :rolleyes

My thoughts exactly.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's too small NOW is the point. The spurs desperately need some length at that spot. How is that not obvious?

WTF are you talking about. We have never had a 6-9 235 3 ever. Elliott was 6-8 sure but he was only 205.

In our system its all about perimeter defense and spacing the floor with an outside shot. Your length bullshit is just bullshit.

[Spursfan092120]

This is the best possible thing that could happen. Especially if it leads to a S&T.
This +10000

[Mel_13]

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year.

Only if you assume that the Bowen/Oberto/Thomas contracts wouldn't have been used to acquire a different player.

[ace3g]

question about sign and trades: Can 2 players sign new contracts then be traded for each other? for example: RJ signs then is traded for John Salmons who signs a new contract?

[Agloco]

Hairston has played the three pretty much his entire Spurs career. He is 6-6 220. Anderson is 6-6 210.

In comparison Ime Udoka who played the three for us went 6-6 215.

They are all swingmen.

Has Anderson played the three in college? Hairston needs a jumper regardless of his position.

My point is that they're not fit to play the three in one manner or another. Certainly not for a team that is serious about making a deep playoff run.

[ohmwrecker]

WTF are you talking about. We have never had a 6-9 235 3 ever. Elliott was 6-8 sure but he was only 205.

In our system its all about perimeter defense and spacing the floor with an outside shot. Your length bullshit is just bullshit.

Times change, bubba. Hey, if you want to go at the Lakers with 6'6" rookies and D-leaguers . . . Well, good luck with that.

[jag]

The Spurs need not to find another former All-Star SF. They just need someone who can mesh with the team. If Parker stays, it seems logical to go back to the formula of surrounding TP & TD (and Splitter if he comes) with spot-up shooters who can defend, rather than asking Parker to adjust and become a pass-first PG.

This is a great post that i didn't see anyone else give props too.

I agree completely...losing RJ isn't the end of the world, but the spurs could have added a 3-point shooter who spread the floor without losing RJ. The spurs could have made a lot of moves and improved while allowing RJ to come off th bench. Now, you possibly lose the guy and get nothing in return.

Then you get a bunch of guys in here saying "dont freak out, we got Hairston, gee and Anderson and the LLE." cool.

If RJ continued playing like ass, you keep him on the bench...then you play Anderson, hairston, or whoever you signed in the offseason. Now you don't even have the option of trying to work RJ into a team he was going into his second year with.

The Spurs are better with RJ than they are without RJ while receiving nothing in return. Pretty simple stuff. JJ reddick isn't signing for the LLE.

[Mel_13]

question about sign and trades: Can 2 players sign new contracts then be traded for each other? for example: RJ signs then is traded for John Salmons who signs a new contract?

As long as the numbers are close enough to work under the CBA, yes.

[AFBlue]

This is the best possible thing that could happen. Especially if it leads to a S&T.

A sign-and-trade is the only thing that makes sense. After the season RJ had, I just can't see the Spurs rewarding him with a long-term contract...even if it is for significantly less per year.

[jag]

People really under rate the production he brought to the Spurs as the 4th option.

Sure he wasn't the "picture perfect fit", and sure he didn't average the 20 points he averaged in Milwaukee, but those 20 points per game was impossible to produce with the scarce amount of opportunities he had playing behind the big 3.

Even if he was the 4th option, he still scored in double digits in 58 games last year (more than 15 points per game in 32 outings). And was instrumental in many victories, even in the playoffs.

About his defense, I know he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the defensive end, but the guy showed progress as the season progressed; not so much on the ball, but off the ball; especially in putting in the effort and contesting shots around the rim more effectively than any big man outside of Duncan. I'm not saying he was Dikembe Mutombo by any means; but he was progressively active in this regard, especially in the last few months of the season.

Overall saying he didn't do anything is foolish to say.

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.

There were other reasons why the Spurs failed when it was all said and done. Most notably, the lack of having an established clear cut 5th wing ( part of it was Pop's fault) and the lack of interior defense that doomed the Spurs in the end. Not so much Jefferson.

Pop stubbornly made the wrong choice for the team by investing in the wrong players (Mason, Bogans) all damn year. Even when these two players were atrocious for the last 3 months of the season, Pop didn't budge and stubbornly played the law of averages game. In the end, Pop put the team in a very vulnerable position from a depth standpoint by stubbornly giving Mason and Bogans the responsibility as the 5th wing. It made no sense to do this and still doesn't til this day.

As a result of Mason and Bogans maintaining their atrocious status, the Spurs back court and Jefferson were forced way too many minutes and it showed in their 4th quarter execution down the stretch ( even in the Dallas series ).

Pop should have given more responsibility and prepared Hairston or Temple somewhere in the last 2 months of the regular season, when Mason and Bogans were consistently horrid. (Believe it or not, Hairston and Temple had more productive minutes than Mason and Bogans did all season; even if they played less minutes. )

If Hairston or Temple would have panned out as a 5th wing, Spurs could have stretched their bench enough, which would've given Manu more gas at the end of games to " go for the throat", and Hill wouldn't have had as big of a responsibility offensively ( because of Manu and Tony having less but more efficient minutes, and more efficient touches). But Pop was too stubborn to find this out.

By no means am I blaming the year on Popovich, but he certainly could have made different decisions in regards of the rotation that could have put the Spurs in a better position to compete in the playoffs. Many people just point at R.J and blame him. I couldn't disagree more.

Hopefully now Splitter can come in to help the interior defense and hopefully Spurs can find a respectable replacement for R.J via trade ( less likely) or for the LLE. If not then I hope Hairston, Gee and Anderson are ready to contribute.

[mosdef17]

I can't believe everyone that is happy with RJ opting out, do you not realise how big of a trade chip we just lost? This is the WORST thing that could happen. People are saying its good because we can do a sign and trade. A sign and trade?! So, what? We sign RJ for 5 years $40m and someone is going to want that?? His trade value is at it's LOWEST EVER. Before he opted out the only thing he had going for him was he was able to save teams a lot of money. Now we are at the cap and can't sign anyone except Tiago for the MLE. Him opting out means we are very limited in what we can do this summer. We have 0 tradeable assets that we are willing to let go.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Has Anderson played the three in college? Hairston needs a jumper regardless of his position.

My point is that they're not fit to play the three in one manner or another. Certainly not for a team that is serious about making a deep playoff run.

Anderson can shoot (and rebound for that matter) and Hairston can defend. RJ did neither.

[Agloco]

Assuming that the Spurs stay under the luxury tax in 2010-11, converting 1yr/15M to 3yrs/24M would represent a huge savings for the Spurs. Even at 4yrs/32M, it's close to cost neutral.

Are they able to do this with his bird rights or something? I don't follow......do they have his bird rights? :( Confused as hell right about now. :lol

[UnWantedTheory]

eric b i bet you where one of the people who thinks dairy queen is better then whataburger, shut the hell up hariston>rj

That has to be one of the most idiotic comparisons I have come across.

[SequSpur]

I can't believe everyone that is happy with RJ opting out, do you not realise how big of a trade chip we just lost? This is the WORST thing that could happen. People are saying its good because we can do a sign and trade. A sign and trade?! So, what? We sign RJ for 5 years $40m and someone is going to want that?? His trade value is at it's LOWEST EVER. Before he opted out the only thing he had going for him was he was able to save teams a lot of money. Now we are at the cap and can't sign anyone except Tiago for the MLE. Him opting out means we are very limited in what we can do this summer. We have 0 tradeable assets that we are willing to let go.

When parker went out RJ dropped 20 a game and the spurs actually beat good opponents...it's to bad the fuckin spurstalk retards can't see that shit but yet they compare bogans and bonner to fuckin hall of famers...

i liked RJ, shit...he brought the dunk back into the spurs...i shouldn't expect any difference of opinion hear...most of you like that pussy ball.

[ohmwrecker]

Anderson can shoot (and rebound for that matter) and Hairston can defend. RJ did neither.

I see . . . Anderson, who has yet to play in an NBA game and Hairston, who could not get playing time behind RMJ, Bogans and Matt fucking Bonner are better options than Richard Jefferson. Genius.

[Mel_13]

Are they able to do this with his bird rights or something? I don't follow......do they have his bird rights? :( Confused as hell right about now. :lol

Yes, they have his full Bird Rights and can sign him to any sized contract from the minimum to the maximum.

[jag]

Anderson can shoot (and rebound for that matter) and Hairston can defend. RJ did neither.

I wasn't aware Anderson was a sniper from downtown...his stats say otherwise. Isn't that what the spurs really need? RJ had a midrange game, that wasn't the issue. So tell me what Anderson does better than RJ.

And Bogans can play D.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aije5AsvnhNeyZEso0XYzL68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

[024]

i suggested a trade of jefferson to the bucks for salmons in a S&T but realized jefferson came from the bucks.

[Agloco]

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.



I'm thinking the only way the Spurs would have rubbed one out last year, or in any season for that matter is if they won the title. Hell, I'd have rubbed one out if they did that......

[ohmwrecker]

I can't believe I just participated in a thread where I agreed with EricB (sort of) and SequSpur.

[Mel_13]

a S&T of salmons for jefferson with each an $7-8 million salary seems reasonable. bucks get a scorer and the spurs get a better fitting SF. i doubt salmons is on top of any lists. not many teams out there will give him above the MLE.

Pretty sure the Bucks don't want RJ back.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

WTF are you talking about. We have never had a 6-9 235 3 ever. Elliott was 6-8 sure but he was only 205.

In our system its all about perimeter defense and spacing the floor with an outside shot. Your length bullshit is just bullshit.

Fucking A. We need a three man taller than 6'6" in today's game. Or you can plan on a short post-season (if we even get there).

[Agloco]

Yes, they have his full Bird Rights and can sign him to any sized contract from the minimum to the maximum.

Ahhhh ok. I'm finally beginning to understand this mess now. Takes a bit for the gears to begin turning nowadays.Thanks again. :toast

[ace3g]

WojYahooNBA

Y! Sports Free Agency Buzz: AInge dangling 'Sheed's contract in trade talks, Pop personally handling RJ workouts: http://tinyurl.com/256fylq

[ace3g]

WojYahooNBA

Y! Sports Free Agency Buzz: AInge dangling 'Sheed's contract in trade talks, Pop personally handling RJ workouts: http://tinyurl.com/256fylq

[ElNono]

I can't believe everyone that is happy with RJ opting out, do you not realise how big of a trade chip we just lost? This is the WORST thing that could happen. People are saying its good because we can do a sign and trade. A sign and trade?! So, what? We sign RJ for 5 years $40m and someone is going to want that?? His trade value is at it's LOWEST EVER. Before he opted out the only thing he had going for him was he was able to save teams a lot of money. Now we are at the cap and can't sign anyone except Tiago for the MLE. Him opting out means we are very limited in what we can do this summer. We have 0 tradeable assets that we are willing to let go.

The only way we were trading him was next January, IMO. Which means we would have wasted half a season trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and getting some unknown talent in return.
Furthermore (and please correct me if I'm wrong), keeping those $15 million in the books basically strained whatever possibility we had of keeping Tony around in the long run.

Trades are not a sure thing either. We had nearly $10 million in tradeable expiring in the last trade deadline and we ended up not trading anybody and having to release Finley instead.

[My Fault]

Are they able to do this with his bird rights or something? I don't follow......do they have his bird rights? :( Confused as hell right about now. :lol

Yes, they have bird rights on RJ so they are able either sign him to another deal or use him as a S&T.

[Agloco]

I can't believe I just participated in a thread where I agreed with EricB (sort of) and SequSpur.

:lol

I've agreed with Eric B on many occasions (which frightens me to no end really), but SequSpur? lol @ myself I guess.

[024]

Pretty sure the Bucks don't want RJ back.
yeah, i just remembered that. jefferson was a prolific scorer on the bucks. if he goes back and gets the same 20 pts a game for $8-9 million, everyone will be happy.

[OrEmuN]

Question:

This may be irrelevant if RJ resigns with a longer, smaller contract but just curious to know. Assuming that there are teams who are interested in RJ, why would these teams want to do a sign-and-trade with us since RJ is opting out ?

To my understanding, we own the birds rights to RJ. However, RJ will be a FA and as such, teams with cap space can sign RJ without a S&T with us. I cannot fathom how would they do a sign & trade unless they are trying to get rid of some bloated contracts which we will not want anyway

For teams over the cap, they can offer the MLE to RJ if he accepts. Unless they are willing to pay RJ more than the MLE, they will not require a S&T.

As such, from the above breakdown, am I right to say that S&T option is severely limited to over-capped teams who are offering more than MLE for RJ ?

[EricB]

:lol

I've agreed with Eric B on many occasions (which frightens me to no end really), but SequSpur? lol @ myself I guess.


It shouldn't.

:) Im a nice guy! :)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fucking A. We need a three man taller than 6'6" in today's game. Or you can plan on a short post-season (if we even get there).

We got to the second round last year with a 6-7 3 and our 3 previous championships were with a 6-7 3.

Its about perimeter defense and the 3-ball not length.

[MaNu4Tres]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aije5AsvnhNeyZEso0XYzL68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

I hope this is the case.

I'd much rather have Jefferson for 4 years at 32 million than having James Jones starting for the Spurs next year.

[Vinnie_Johnson]

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

[Creation88]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aije5AsvnhNeyZEso0XYzL68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

this would be the worst fucking thing to happen to this franchise since the Richard Jefferson trade.

[TD 21]

People really under rate the production he brought to the Spurs as the 4th option.

Sure he wasn't the "picture perfect fit", and sure he didn't average the 20 points he averaged in Milwaukee, but those 20 points per game was impossible to produce with the scarce amount of opportunities he had playing behind the big 3.

Even if he was the 4th option, he still scored in double digits in 58 games last year (more than 15 points per game in 32 outings). And was instrumental in many victories, even in the playoffs.

About his defense, I know he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the defensive end, but the guy showed progress as the season progressed; not so much on the ball, but off the ball; especially in putting in the effort and contesting shots around the rim more effectively than any big man outside of Duncan. I'm not saying he was Dikembe Mutombo by any means; but he was progressively active in this regard, especially in the last few months of the season.

Overall saying he didn't do anything is foolish to say.

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.

There were other reasons why the Spurs failed when it was all said and done. Most notably, the lack of having an established clear cut 5th wing ( part of it was Pop's fault) and the lack of interior defense that doomed the Spurs in the end. Not so much Jefferson.

Pop stubbornly made the wrong choice for the team by investing in the wrong players (Mason, Bogans) all damn year. Even when these two players were atrocious for the last 3 months of the season, Pop didn't budge and stubbornly played the law of averages game. In the end, Pop put the team in a very vulnerable position from a depth standpoint by stubbornly giving Mason and Bogans the responsibility as the 5th wing. It made no sense to do this and still doesn't til this day.

As a result of Mason and Bogans maintaining their atrocious status, the Spurs back court and Jefferson were forced way too many minutes and it showed in their 4th quarter execution down the stretch ( even in the Dallas series ).

Pop should have given more responsibility and prepared Hairston or Temple somewhere in the last 2 months of the regular season, when Mason and Bogans were consistently horrid. (Believe it or not, Hairston and Temple had more productive minutes than Mason and Bogans did all season; even if they played less minutes. )

If Hairston or Temple would have panned out as a 5th wing, Spurs could have stretched their bench enough, which would've given Manu more gas at the end of games to " go for the throat", and Hill wouldn't have had as big of a responsibility offensively ( because of Manu and Tony having less but more efficient minutes, and more efficient touches). But Pop was too stubborn to find this out.

By no means am I blaming the year on Popovich, but he certainly could have made different decisions in regards of the rotation that could have put the Spurs in a better position to compete in the playoffs. Many people just point at R.J and blame him. I couldn't disagree more.

Hopefully now Splitter can come in to help the interior defense and hopefully Spurs can find a respectable replacement for R.J via trade ( less likely) or for the LLE. If not then I hope Hairston, Gee and Anderson are ready to contribute.

I agree with most of this, but not the two parts in bold...

1) Whenever people bring this up, they forget about the part where if said player wasn't in that spot, someone else would have been, so at minimum a percentage of his production would have been there. He's not a player like Duncan or Ginobili, who's contributions go beyond the stat sheet.

2) At no point last season did I feel Jefferson played too many minutes. When he was acquired, I thought he'd play the type of minutes Hill was playing in the second half of last season.


Assuming that the Spurs stay under the luxury tax in 2010-11, converting 1yr/15M to 3yrs/24M would represent a huge savings for the Spurs. Even at 4yrs/32M, it's close to cost neutral.

Yeah, I know. I could see the Spurs grudginly going to 4 years too, because if he is going to re-sign it was probably agreed to beforehand, in which case I could see him asking for 4 years. I'd imagine the Spurs are probably trying to get away with 3. If they go to 4 though, then maybe they get him for $28 million total instead of 32? Jefferson's agent is probably looking for something in the ballpark of what Marion got from the Mavs last season.

I'll say this in Jefferson's defense. He seems genuine in the sense that he cares enough to put in the hard work to improve next season and going forward if he's back. He's not a shot creator and doesn't have great lateral quickness, but he's still athletic enough overall and talented enough to be a better player in this league than he's shown in recent years (at least theoretically). Clearly, the Spurs see that in him, which is why Pop is working him out and why they might re-sign him to a multi-year deal, despite him coming off a mediocre season.

[jag]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aije5AsvnhNeyZEso0XYzL68vLYF?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz063010

Marcus Bryant called that move. It's pretty much what i hoped for because it makes no sense for Jefferson to leave that much money on the table with no plan. If this happens, you'll have about 5-10 geniuses in here upset that Hairston or [unnamed d-leaguer] won't be starting.


this would be the worst fucking thing to happen to this franchise since the Richard Jefferson trade.

[franceout]

According to hoopshype, spurs currently have 52million on book, and the cap is projected to be 56, and so spurs 4million under cap. I dont know how does it works, can they sign some one using the 4mililion cap and then sign another one using MLE?

[Creation88]

*takes down names of Richard Jefferson supporters so he can make them eat crow when RJ splooges all over this franchise if he resigns*

[4>0rings]

We got to the second round last year with a 6-7 3 and our 3 previous championships were with a 6-7 3.

Its about perimeter defense and the 3-ball not length.
Lakers won because of length this year, and they will likely win it next year because of it. If we don't stick a decent 7 footer alongside Duncan, the Spurs have no chance.

[ajballer4]

Question:

This may be irrelevant if RJ resigns with a longer, smaller contract but just curious to know. Assuming that there are teams who are interested in RJ, why would these teams want to do a sign-and-trade with us since RJ is opting out ?

To my understanding, we own the birds rights to RJ. However, RJ will be a FA and as such, teams with cap space can sign RJ without a S&T with us. I cannot fathom how would they do a sign & trade unless they are trying to get rid of some bloated contracts which we will not want anyway

For teams over the cap, they can offer the MLE to RJ if he accepts. Unless they are willing to pay RJ more than the MLE, they will not require a S&T.

As such, from the above breakdown, am I right to say that S&T option is severely limited to over-capped teams who are offering more than MLE for RJ ?

RJs gonna take more than MLE so teams over the cap interested would need a S&T.

[mosdef17]

The only way we were trading him was next January, IMO. Which means we would have wasted half a season trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and getting some unknown talent in return.
Furthermore (and please correct me if I'm wrong), keeping those $15 million in the books basically strained whatever possibility we had of keeping Tony around in the long run.

Trades are not a sure thing either. We had nearly $10 million in tradeable expiring in the last trade deadline and we ended up not trading anybody and having to release Finley instead.

That is a valid point, I just think once January rolls around he won't be traded either way because he will be playing good enough for us to keep or bad enough that no teams will want his fresh 4 year $30m salary or whatever he gets...

Last season I thought was a little difference because Pop wasn't going to trade Bonner, Finley, Mason in a package three for one because he liked Bonner and its hard to find a team that you can dump three players on and they dont go over the player maximum. If the team waives players to make room it costs them a lot of extra money. RJ was arguably the biggest trade chip in the NBA besides Troy Murphy

[ElNono]

Jefferson staying in S.A.?

Richard Jefferson’s decision to opt out of the final $15 million season of his contract might not be a sign he’s willing to leave the San Antonio Spurs.

Sources said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been personally working out Jefferson in San Antonio. The free-agent forward could re-sign with the team at a number that lowers the franchise’s luxury-tax hit while guaranteeing him more money on the back end of a multiyear contract.

I could see this happening too. A contract loaded on the back-end, which would make him a trade asset in 3/4 years. The thing is, by then the Spurs are going to be rebuilding, most likely. So, does a financial commitment like that makes sense?

[Creation88]

all you fucking retards suddenly caring for Richard Jefferson because you valued his CONTRACT have now morphed into you wanting him here long term!? WTF unbelievable

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lakers won because of length this year, and they will likely win it next year because of it. If we don't stick a decent 7 footer alongside Duncan, the Spurs have no chance.

Ron Artest is 6-7.

Splitter is the key to getting more length and we don't run the same system as the Lakers so who gives a shit.

[murpjf88]

I could see this happening too. A contract loaded on the back-end, which would make him a trade asset in 3/4 years. The thing is, by then the Spurs are going to be rebuilding, most likely. So, does a financial commitment like that makes sense?

In 3/4 years, he'd be worthless on the market.

[objective]

Trades are not a sure thing either. We had nearly $10 million in tradeable expiring in the last trade deadline and we ended up not trading anybody and having to release Finley instead.

Exactly. Trades are no guarantee for big expirings, and there have been plenty that have evaporated without a return. Raef Lafrentz and Wally Szczerbiak were huge expirings that couldn't get their teams anything, and they were on teams whose owners were willing to spend whatever it took. Those guys combined for about 26 million.

[ohmwrecker]

this would be the worst fucking thing to happen to this franchise since the Richard Jefferson trade.

You again?! I must say I admire your hard-headed persistence in the face of all that is logical and sensible.

[jag]

*takes down names of Richard Jefferson supporters so he can make them eat crow when RJ splooges all over this franchise if he resigns*

Please take down my name. Im not a "Hairston for starter" supporter or "[unnamed d-leaguer] for starter" supporter...so by default I'm a HUGE jefferson supporter. Have you ever looked around and wondered why everyone thinks you're an idiot?

[Creation88]

you think bringing back RJ long term is a GOOD thing?

[4>0rings]

Ron Artest is 6-7.

Splitter is the key to getting more length and we don't run the same system as the Lakers so who gives a shit.Lakers won because they had length on every team.

[ElNono]

That is a valid point, I just think once January rolls around he won't be traded either way because he will be playing good enough for us to keep or bad enough that no teams will want his fresh 4 year $30m salary or whatever he gets...

If we restructure his salary, sure.


Last season I thought was a little difference because Pop wasn't going to trade Bonner, Finley, Mason in a package three for one because he liked Bonner and its hard to find a team that you can dump three players on and they dont go over the player maximum. If the team waives players to make room it costs them a lot of extra money. RJ was arguably the biggest trade chip in the NBA besides Troy Murphy

We can gloss over this later, but yeah, it had more to do with what Pop considered to be the team he was going to roll with than anything else.
Ultimately that's the other thing. I rather have some development of players that are going to be here for the whole season than a guy that might leave before the stretch run, basically wasting the time you gave him for half a season.

[AFBlue]

I hope this is the case.

I'd much rather have Jefferson for 4 years at 32 million than having James Jones starting for the Spurs next year.

You want the Spurs to pay Jefferson $8M/yr until he's 34? Look, RJ leaving the Spurs with limited resources to backfill definitely hurts...but I think I'd rather have that than RJ in his 30s with declining athleticism and suspect skill.

[ohmwrecker]

all you fucking retards suddenly caring for Richard Jefferson because you valued his CONTRACT have now morphed into you wanting him here long term!? WTF unbelievable

Nobody "valued his contract", dummy. If we sign him to a long-term we can make his contract more appealing and trade him. Is it pointless to even try to explain anything to you?

[jag]

Ron Artest is 6-7.

Splitter is the key to getting more length and we don't run the same system as the Lakers so who gives a shit.

If the spurs had another Bruce Bowen your point would be valid.

[Creation88]

Nobody "valued his contract", dummy. If we sign him to a long-term we can make his contract more appealing and trade him. Is it pointless to even try to explain anything to you?

i don't think ANYONE can explain why a long term deal for an aged Richard Jefferson is a GOOD thing. you're fucking retarded if you think so.

[TD 21]

It's probably going to be similar to the McDyess deal. Probably a 4th year non guaranteed or partially guaranteed, so that it's worthwhile for him to have done this, but doesn't leave the team too hamstrung a few years from now and makes him a valuable trade asset in the last year of his deal.

[Creation88]

ohmwrecker

everyone just 5 hrs ago valued his expiring contract, idiot. read the thread.

[AFBlue]

At this point, the best scenario is RJ in a sign-and-trade to a team that misses out on the big FAs...take back a player and maybe even a trade exception for the difference.

[Dex]

Like it or not, Jefferson coming back is probably the best option.

As it stands, the Spurs have to fill the void at SF. They can do that four ways:
1) Offer Jefferson a new contract for a few years, at a slightly lower rate. Spurs can offer as much as they want because of RJs Bird Rights, so this is probably the best value the Spurs can get.
2) Use the LLE to sign a FA small forward. This is a possibility, but with the MLE already committed to Splitter, this would leave no money left for the Spurs to address any other needs such as another big or point guard (outside of minimum contracts, of course)
3) Sign some scrubs or bring in a groomer from the DLeague, and then distribute Jeffersons minutes between the wings. I think this works in theory for guys like Hairston, but other guys like Ginobili and Andersen don't really have the tools for SF.
4) Some unforeseeable sign and/or trade.

I'm sure the Spurs FO will be pulling the strings. But out of those options, I think the Spurs are probably going to get the most production out of Jefferson returning. I don't think they are necessarily rewarding Jefferson with a long contract, as much as Jefferson is putting them in a tough situation, but they still may need to bite the bullet.

[angelbelow]

Nobody "valued his contract", dummy. If we sign him to a long-term we can make his contract more appealing and trade him. Is it pointless to even try to explain anything to you?

just ignore him, hes a full time retard.

[Creation88]

At this point, the best scenario is RJ in a sign-and-trade to a team that misses out on the big FAs...take back a player and maybe even a trade exception for the difference.

a sign and trade IS the best option but who would want RJ long term? he was more valuable as an expiring deal then a long-term.

[Agloco]

*takes down names of Richard Jefferson supporters so he can make them eat crow when RJ splooges all over this franchise if he resigns*

Just make sure you spell it correctly, slappy.

[AFBlue]

Like it or not, Jefferson coming back is probably the best option.

As it stands, the Spurs have to fill the void at SF. They can do that four ways:
1) Offer Jefferson a new contract for a few years, at a slightly lower rate. Spurs can offer as much as they want because of RJs Bird Rights, so this is probably the best value the Spurs can get.
2) Use the LLE to sign a FA small forward. This is a possibility, but with the MLE already committed to Splitter, this would leave no money left for the Spurs to address any other needs such as another big or point guard (outside of minimum contracts, of course)
3) Sign some scrubs or bring in a groomer from the DLeague, and then distribute Jeffersons minutes between the wings. I think this works in theory for guys like Hairston, but other guys like Ginobili and Andersen don't really have the tools for SF.
4) Some unforeseeable sign and/or trade.

I'm sure the Spurs FO will be pulling the strings. But out of those options, I think the Spurs are probably going to get the most production out of Jefferson returning. I don't think they are necessarily rewarding Jefferson with a long contract, as much as Jefferson is putting them in a tough situation, but they still may need to bite the bullet.

I'd put it #3 behind, S&T for a different role player (#1) and letting him walk (#2). Honestly, what has Jefferson done to prove he deserves a long-term contract with the Spurs...even at half the cost per season?

[Creation88]

did i not watch the same Richard Jefferson that everyone else watched this year? because the one i saw couldn't play with Tim on the same court, wouldn't drive the basketball, had no lateral movement, and missed 16 rotations a game.

you guys are the worst flip floppers fans in the league.

we go from: Jefferson trade being awesome, to him sucking it up, to wanting him gone, to him opting out, to everyone wanting him back...long term.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lakers won because they had length on every team.

Again Ron Artest who started them for at the 3 was 6-7. When they talk about length its because with Bynum and Gasol they had two 7-footers and a 6-10 Odom coming off the bench.

Assuming Splitter comes then we get another 7 footer but if there are any 6-10 3/4s out there be sure to point them out.

And RJ is 6-7 anyway so its fucking moot anyway. We are not the Lakers nor have we won with a huge 3 in Pop's system ever.

[ohmwrecker]

i don't think ANYONE can explain why a long term deal for an aged Richard Jefferson is a GOOD thing. you're fucking retarded if you think so.

Aged? WTF? If any other team was interested in RJ as a FA they would sign him to a similar deal. Savvy? If we sign him to his fair market value then the Spurs can get something in return via trade instead of letting him walk.

Is any of this getting through?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If the spurs had another Bruce Bowen your point would be valid.

RJ or not there is no Bowen replacement so whats your point in the context of this discussion?

[Creation88]

who the fuck is gonna wanna trade for him coming off the worst season in his career? you're pipe dreams are laughable. you expect a demand that is not out there.

[AFBlue]

a sign and trade IS the best option but who would want RJ long term? he was more valuable as an expiring deal then a long-term.

Maybe no one, but he would definitely have more value in different systems (i.e. Knicks up-tempo offense). I bet there's someone out there (hometown Clippers?) willing to take him on for a few years.

[Creation88]

need i remind you that no one wanted him THIS past trade deadline. there was "no market"

[ohmwrecker]

And RJ is 6-7 anyway so its fucking moot anyway. We are not the Lakers nor have we won with a huge 3 in Pop's system ever.

RJ plays taller than 6'7" because he is athletic. I didn't see Sean Elliott or Ime Udoka or Bruce Bowen for that matter block shots and rebound like RJ.

[Agloco]

Aged? WTF? If any other team was interested in RJ as a FA they would sign him to a similar deal. Savvy? If we sign him to his fair market value then the Spurs can get something in return via trade instead of letting him walk.

Is any of this getting through?

Don't bother.......just be glad that you're on his list. :lol

[Dex]

I'd put it #3 behind, S&T for a different role player and letting him walk. Honestly, what has Jefferson done to prove he deserves a long-term contract with the Spurs...even at half the cost per season?

Well, I agree that a S&T is probably the best option; Spurs only do that if they get some benefit out of it. But that's dependent on some other team agreeing to it, and that remains to be seen in the cards.

[AFBlue]

need i remind you that no one wanted him THIS past trade deadline. there was "no market"

No market for a player making $13M then and $15M the next season. RJ at a lower number is probably more palatable to certain teams. I just wouldn't want it for the Spurs.

[Mel_13]

Honestly, what has Jefferson done to prove he deserves a long-term contract with the Spurs...even at half the cost per season?

We'll have to see the numbers on any new deal, but it's entirely possible that sufficient cost savings can be realized in year 1 to pay all or most of the costs in years 2 and 3. So it wouldn't be so much that he 'deserved' a long-term contract, but rather that the Spurs could have RJ for 3 years at the same cost as one year.

[AFBlue]

Well, I agree that a S&T is probably the best option; Spurs only do that if they get some benefit out of it. But that's dependent on some other team doing us a solid, and that remains to be seen in the cards.

"Solid" is in the eye of the beholder. If the Spurs get someone to take on RJ for multiple years, my assumption is that they're getting back a much less talented player (albeit one that has more value than current alternatives like Hairston/Gee or LLE pickup).

I need to think on the possibilities of this scenario, but I don't think it's improbable.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

RJ plays taller than 6'7" because he is athletic. I didn't see Sean Elliott or Ime Udoka or Bruce Bowen for that matter block shots and rebound like RJ.

Did you miss the part where we won championships with Bowen and Elliott?

I would prefer to keep RJ over the present alternative but this notion that RJ is going to be an assett as long as he misses 3s and rotations is asinine.

RJ can jump and hes fast in a straight line down the court but he was entirely too large at 235 and his lateral quickness or lack thereof was a liability.

In order for RJ to really take us over the hump he needs to hit his jumper and play perimeter defense. If he cannot we need to find someone who can or were not going anywhere

[AFBlue]

We'll have to see the numbers on any new deal, but it's entirely possible that sufficient cost savings can be realized in year 1 to pay all or most of the costs in years 2 and 3. So it wouldn't be so much that he 'deserved' a long-term contract, but rather that the Spurs could have RJ for 3 years at the same cost as one year.

If it's "6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other", where is the incentive for RJ to take that deal? There has to be some additional dollars on any contract he signs or he wouldn't have opted out...right?

[ss1986v2]

If it's "6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other", where is the incentive for RJ to take that deal? There has to be some additional dollars on any contract he signs or he wouldn't have opted out...right?

you have to factor in our tax savings into the equation as well.

[Ice009]

Who are the Spurs looking at for the LLE???

EricB said someone surprising according to his source. Anyone care to guess?

[Mel_13]

If it's 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, where is the incentive for RJ to take that deal? There has to be some additional dollars on any contract he signs or he wouldn't have opted out...right?

The money that the Spurs save in salary, luxury tax, and tax distribution in year 1 are used to pay all or most of the costs in years 2 and 3. RJ goes from 1yr/15M to say 3yrs/24M or perhaps a bit more, so there's his incentive.

[ohmwrecker]

Did you miss the part where we won championships with Bowen and Elliott?

Like I said before . . . different times. The good teams are ALL longer and more athletic AND they've figured out how to stop the Spurs. Or, at least slow us down.


I would prefer to keep RJ over the present.

RJ can jump and hes fast.

In order for RJ to really take us over the hump he needs to hit his jumper and play perimeter defense. If he cannot we need to find someone who can or were not going anywhere.

Then we are in agreement.

[AFBlue]

you have to factor in our taxing savings into the equation as well.

Who is "our" in this tax saving situation?

I see the incentive for the Spurs if it's a like-money contract, but I don't see why RJ does that deal. RJ opted out to either a) put himself in a better situation on a different team or b) make more money in the future than he would have made by taking the $15M and entering FA in 2011 with a possible lockout.

I don't see how he settles for a contract that pays him no more than he would have gotten for this year alone. Makes no financial sense.

[ohmwrecker]

I can't do this anymore. Goodnight all. Finger's crossed that this whole deal works out.

[Ice009]

How about adding some incentives in an RJ contract? Make it 8 million per season with some incentives if he does well.

[AFBlue]

The money that the Spurs save in salary, luxury tax, and tax distribution in year 1 are used to pay all or most of the costs in years 2 and 3. RJ goes from 1yr/15M to say 3yrs/24M or perhaps a bit more, so there's his incentive.

Got it, but I still don't see it. All you're doing is spreading out the pain and paying less tax on a player that may well not be worth the $8M/yr you're throwing his way.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Like I said before . . . different times. The good teams are ALL longer and more athletic AND they've figured out how to stop the Spurs. Or, at least slow us down.



Then we are in agreement.

No were not. Miles is 6-6. Artest is 6-7, so are Pierce, Richardson, Marion and Wallace. Hill and Anthony go 6-8.

Pretty much the average 3 goes about 6-7 in the NBA.

Different times my ass.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We got to the second round last year with a 6-7 3 and our 3 previous championships were with a 6-7 3.

Its about perimeter defense and the 3-ball not length.

When's the last time we won a title?

That's what I thought.

The game has changed a bit in the last couple of years. James Anderson will be a nice player off the bench when we need scoring, or a nice spacer in the starting five allowing Manu to come off the bench.

Pretending that he'll be able to come in and guard the long SFs that are all over the league is comical.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

When's the last time we won a title?

That's what I thought.

The game has changed a bit in the last couple of years. James Anderson will be a nice player off the bench when we need scoring, or a nice spacer in the starting five allowing Manu to come off the bench.

Pretending that he'll be able to come in and guard the long SFs that are all over the league is comical.

Who are these huge 3s outside of Durant?

Artest? Pierce? Wallace? Richardson? Marion?

The teams in the conference finals say you are full of shit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Ron Artest is 6-7.

Splitter is the key to getting more length and we don't run the same system as the Lakers so who gives a shit.

Because we have to play defense on them too. This isn't rocket science.

[Whisky Dog]

I'm not too worried about the situation the Spurs find themselves in. If the Spurs value RJ and believe that he's a long-term fit, they'll have a good chance to re-sign him to a reasonable deal. If RJ didn't fit in the locker room or if they believe he's a horrible fit, they have a good chance to S&T him. If RJ leaves and the Spurs have to replace him with a minimum-type player, at least that player will either be a better shooter or defender than RJ.

The main problem with RJ is his defense and shooting are weakspots ... and those are the two areas the Spurs need their small forward to stand out. If Splitter comes and TP regains his footing, the Spurs can cover the points they'll miss out with RJ leaving. In that sense, a role player who can either defend or shoot lights out isn't a bad option.

Now if the Spurs miss out on Splitter, I'll really start to worry. No Splitter and no RJ and the Spurs might as well start rebuilding.


This is what I was thinking when I saw this thread. The Spurs don't need a big point scorer at the 3, if anything we found out that having a scorer there won't work if that's all he is. They need defense and a corner or wing spot up shooter. Might not be able to find both of those things in a barrel scraping effort, but if you can only find a guy who does one well which is the most important?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because we have to play defense on them too. This isn't rocket science.

Against who? I keep on hearing this bullshit but outside of Durant at 6-9 and Hill who has no hops at 6-8 there are no huge long ass 3s. Hill hardly qualifies as being long anyway.

[Mel_13]

Got it, but I still don't see it. All you're doing is spreading out the pain and paying less tax on a player that may well not be worth the $8M/yr your throwing his way.

Rough numbers.

For many years, the Spurs spent right up to the lux tax level and did all they could to avoid the tax. That first dollar over the tax is the most expensive because you forgo the luxury tax distribution check that goes to teams that stay below the tax. This check is for several million dollars.

So with RJ at 15M and Splitter for the MLE the Spurs were going to be way over the tax threshold again this season. A reasonable guess is that they would be 10M over the tax line.

So how much does that add to payroll compared to spending right up to, but not over, the tax line?

10M in additional salary
10M in tax
5M in tax distribution lost

If RJ accepts a back loaded deal that allows the Spurs to sign him and Splitter while staying under the tax, the Spurs have reduced their payroll expenses for 2010-11 by 25M. A large chunk of that money is then paid out to RJ in years 2, 3, and perhaps year 4 of his new contract.

Both sides win by sharing money saved by avoiding the tax and by collecting the tax distribution.

[spectator]

This is what I was thinking when I saw this thread. The Spurs don't need a big point scorer at the 3, if anything we found out that having a scorer there won't work if that's all he is. They need defense and a corner or wing spot up shooter. Might not be able to find both of those things in a barrel scraping effort, but if you can only find a guy who does one well which is the most important?

true dat

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

No were not. Miles is 6-6. Artest is 6-7, so are Pierce, Richardson, Marion and Wallace. Hill and Anthony go 6-8.

Pretty much the average 3 goes about 6-7 in the NBA.

Different times my ass.

You're right. James Anderson, all 6'6" of him, is a brilliant defensive matchup against a guy that's 6'10" like Lamar Odom. Let's see...

LeBron 6'8"
Rashard Lewis 6'10"
Artest 6'7" (still taller, and stronger)
Josh Smith 6'9"
Carmelo 6'8"
Caron Butler 6'7"
Kevin Durant 6'9"
Danny Granger 6'8"
Joe Johnson 6'7"
Paul Pierce 6'7"
Hedo Turkoglu 6'10"
Rudy Gay 6'8"
Buckets 6'8"
Boris Diaw 6'8"
Luol Deng 6'9"

Yep, bunch of short runts at the SF these days in the NBA.


And you want James Anderson at 6'6" to check all those guys, lol.

Or even better, former Austinite Malik Hairston :lmao

Wake the hell up.

[AFBlue]

Rough numbers.

For many years, the Spurs spent right up to the lux tax level and did all they could to avoid the tax. That first dollar over the tax is the most expensive because you forgo the luxury tax distribution check that goes to teams that stay below the tax. This check is for several million dollars.

So with RJ at 15M and Splitter for the MLE the Spurs were going to be way over the tax threshold again this season. A reasonable guess is that they would be 10M over the tax line.

So how much does that add to payroll compared to spending right up to, but not over, the tax line?

10M in additional salary
10M in tax
5M in tax distribution lost

If RJ accepts a back loaded deal that allows the Spurs to sign him and Splitter while staying under the tax, the Spurs have reduced their payroll expenses for 2010-11 by 25M. A large chunk of that money is then paid out to RJ in years 2, 3, and perhaps year 4 of his new contract.

Both sides win by sharing money saved by avoiding the tax and by collecting the tax distribution.

Tax is roughly how much over salary cap? Spurs would have to offer what to RJ in the first year(s) to avoid the tax?

BTW, I appreciate you breaking it down.

[Mel_13]

Tax is roughly how much over salary cap? Spurs would have to offer what to RJ in the first year(s) to avoid the tax?

BTW, I appreciate you breaking it down.

Tax level is about 12M above the salary cap.

With RJ off the books, they're roughly 16M below the tax. So 5.8M for the MLE and 1.4M for Anderson. That leaves about 9M to divide between RJ and some small filler contracts.

[AFBlue]

Tax level is about 12M above the salary cap.

With RJ off the books, they're roughly 16M below the tax. So 5.8M for the MLE and 1.4M for Anderson. That leaves about 9M to divide between RJ and some small filler contracts.

You're the woman!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're right. James Anderson, all 6'6" of him, is a brilliant defensive matchup against a guy that's 6'10" like Lamar Odom. Let's see...

LeBron 6'8"
Rashard Lewis 6'10"
Artest 6'7" (still taller, and stronger)
Josh Smith 6'9"
Carmelo 6'8"
Caron Butler 6'7"
Kevin Durant 6'9"
Danny Granger 6'8"
Joe Johnson 6'7"
Paul Pierce 6'7"
Hedo Turkoglu 6'10"
Rudy Gay 6'8"
Buckets 6'8"
Boris Diaw 6'8"
Luol Deng 6'9"

Yep, bunch of short runts at the SF these days in the NBA.


And you want James Anderson at 6'6" to check all those guys, lol.

Or even better, former Austinite Malik Hairston :lmao

Wake the hell up.

You can count out all the 6-7 because thats just stupid to say that an inch is all the difference in the world.

Lewis Smith and Diaw are PF.

So essentially we would have trouble defending the best 3s in the league like James, Granger, Durant and Anthony. Who would have every though?

The starting 3s on the CF teams were 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and 6-8.

Youre full of shit.

[DPG21920]

I still don't get it entirely from rj's side. Say he gets the 3 year 24 mil deal. That is 9 m more guaranteed. You are telling me that if he kept that 15m this year he would not get a contract next season as a fa worth 9m for the life of the contract?

[Mel_13]

I still don't get it entirely from rj's side. Say he gets the 3 year 24 mil deal. That is 9 m more guaranteed. You are telling me that if he kept that 15m this year he would not get a contract next season as a fa worth 9m for the life of the contract?

Let's wait and see. 4yrs/32M would certainly be attractive to him and would still be useful for the Spurs.

[DPG21920]

If he signs any thing less than or equal to 3/24 he made a poor financial decision. That would be masterful by the spurs. Although I hate the thought of 3 more years of rj.

[DaBears]

Can you say HELL YEAH...... This might be the first time in my Life as a die hard SPURS fan that i have been excited about a caliber star like JR wanting to leave SA..

This helps SA in so many ways, no more LUXURY TAX, and if i am not mistaken we can sign someone else now.. JR was making 15 mil , he passed on that so Spurs have like 10-12 mil to give and not be over the tax..

Confirmed on ESPN @12:16....NBA FASTBREAK

[MaNu4Tres]

Let's wait and see. 4yrs/32M would certainly be attractive to him and would still be useful for the Spurs.

This is a more realistic offer than 3 yr/24 million. IMO

[E-RockWill]

Tax level is about 12M above the salary cap.

With RJ off the books, they're roughly 16M below the tax. So 5.8M for the MLE and 1.4M for Anderson. That leaves about 9M to divide between RJ and some small filler contracts.

This. :toast

I say we throw that $9 mill to someone else, but I totally get the logic.

[Chieflion]

This is a more realistic offer than 3 yr/24 million. IMO

I think I posted that 4 years, 32 million somewhere earlier in this thread before.

Mel_13, you Spursreport member, you.

[chazley]

RJ's new deal will probably be one of these

2yr/22mil
3yr/30mil
4yr/36mil

and the deal will more than likely be backloaded big time. Rj and his agent are not stupid, and if he signs for anything less than those numbers he made a terrible decision to opt out.

[Mel_13]

I think I posted that 4 years, 32 million somewhere earlier in this thread before.

Mel_13, you Spursreport member, you.

:lmao

[Bruno]

What a big surprise. :wow

It could be a bad or good news for Spurs. If RJ just sign with another team, it will sucks for Spurs. If RJ, is S&T for something interesting or re-sign for a reasonable contract, it will be great.

RJ choice put a lot of uncertainties on what Spurs will do this summer.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You can count out all the 6-7 because thats just stupid to say that an inch is all the difference in the world.

Lewis Smith and Diaw are PF.

So essentially we would have trouble defending the best 3s in the league like James, Granger, Durant and Anthony. Who would have every though?

The starting 3s on the CF teams were 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and 6-8.

Youre full of shit.

:lol Every one of those 6'7" guys is bigger and stronger than James Anderson. You're a fucking idiot if you think Anderson could guard any of those guys on the low block.

You're also a retard for not comprehending that the game has changed since the Spurs last won a title. Lewis, Smith, and Diaw all run at the SF. You're wrong there. All drop to the 4 when their teams go "small", I'll give you that, but then we still don't have someone that can match up with them at that spot either.

Go beat off to your 6'5" small forward idea and call it a night.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Let's wait and see. 4yrs/32M would certainly be attractive to him and would still be useful for the Spurs.

Those are the numbers that I came up with for RJ's contract. I think both side win with this type of contract. Especially if Spurs get team option on fourth year.