ESPN: Spurs Emerging as Favorites to Sign Kevin Martin

[Kawhitstorm]

Playoff bonus is almost worthless unless its the finals. IIRC, playoff bonus is about 100k for a finals appearance. 10k for first round, 15k for 2nd round and around 30k for confrence finals.
Don't forget those sponsorship check though......Boban is out there eating.:wakeup

[ceperez]

Timberwolves arent competing with spurs anytime soon plus we probably won't keep him. This is a leap year guys so we have till Tuesday to hear something

Timberwolves are trying to get the maximum from the buyout. Martin is owed $7m next year and a player option of $7.3m year after next. They likely want a discount on that player option.

Martin has got to think that if at 33 years old, he can get a decent gig next year and the following. A good performance with a championship team pays dividends. Just ask Cojo, Baynes and Belinelli.

[Kawhitstorm]

Martin has got to think that if at 33 years old, he can get a decent gig next year and the following. A good performance with a championship team pays dividends. Just ask Cojo, Baynes and Belinelli.

Jamal Crawford got the MLE under the old CBA at the same point of his career so it shouldn't be a problem unless he wets the bed like 2013 Stephen Jackson.:lol

[will_spurs]

Timberwolves are trying to get the maximum from the buyout. Martin is owed $7m next year and a player option of $7.3m year after next. They likely want a discount on that player option.

Martin has got to think that if at 33 years old, he can get a decent gig next year and the following. A good performance with a championship team pays dividends. Just ask Cojo, Baynes and Belinelli.

K-Mart is not in the same league as second unit guys like CoJo, Baynes or Beli. He's a borderline All-Star who got paid over $10 million per season...

If he's after money he'll get it from the Timberwolves in one way or another (either through a well negotiated buyout or just by collecting the $15m they owe him). I don't think he cares much about "dividends" down the road. He's just another veteran chasing a ring to wrap up his career.

[ceperez]

K-Mart is not in the same league as second unit guys like CoJo, Baynes or Beli. He's a borderline All-Star who got paid over $10 million per season...

If he's after money he'll get it from the Timberwolves in one way or another (either through a well negotiated buyout or just by collecting the $15m they owe him). I don't think he cares much about "dividends" down the road. He's just another veteran chasing a ring to wrap up his career.

He's being paid $7m a year, last time I looked Cojo, Belinelli and Baynes were making that kind of money.

I agree, he's a better player than any of these 3 and he knows that.

The question he has to ask himself is will he stay in limbo with the Wolves or will he sign with a contender and possibly make a difference. That's the $7.3m question and obviously it is a no-brainer even if he walks away from $7.3m.

[Mel_13]

Timberwolves are trying to get the maximum from the buyout. Martin is owed $7m next year and a player option of $7.3m year after next. They likely want a discount on that player option.

Martin has got to think that if at 33 years old, he can get a decent gig next year and the following. A good performance with a championship team pays dividends. Just ask Cojo, Baynes and Belinelli.

He's owed the remainder of this year's salary and has a player option for next season.

[will_spurs]

He's being paid $7m a year, last time I looked Cojo, Belinelli and Baynes were making that kind of money.

Yeah so my point was that he doesn't need a stint with the Spurs to cash in later... he already has that contract right now.

Realistically speaking he's owed about $9 or $10m from the Wolves, so that's what they have to lose if they don't buy him out. I imagine he gets $5m from them + whatever he can have the Spurs pay him for this season and next. Financially speaking I imagine it's going to be a wash for him.

This being said I think he's just made negotiations with the Wolves tougher for himself by admitting he wants to go and play for a contender... I don't see what he gets from this.

[Chinook]

K-Mart is not in the same league as second unit guys like CoJo, Baynes or Beli. He's a borderline All-Star who got paid over $10 million per season...

Joseph is a significantly better player than Martin at this point. He and Beli are comparable, and Baynes is worse. There's a reason why Minny is entertaining buying him out of a $7-Million option. Neither side believes he's worth that much money.

[MaNu4Tres]

Joseph is a significantly better player than Martin at this point. He and Beli are comparable, and Baynes is worse. There's a reason why Minny is entertaining buying him out of a $7-Million option. Neither side believes he's worth that much money.

I think the reason Minny is entertaining buying him out is because a player like him has no use to a team that's rebuilding. Smart to shave off finances that are allocated towards personnel that has no value towards rebuilding.

Some may say, "Well his experience is valuable to the younger players moving forward." You can get experience for a lot cheaper than 7 million.

[Atl Spur]

CoJo is not better than Kevin Martin .......... better defender and that's about it!

[Atl Spur]

Getting to the free throw line in the playoffs is truly a weapon......

[ismael-robert]

All buyouts want to be on contenders thats why they drop by mar 1

[MaNu4Tres]

Getting to the free throw line in the playoffs is truly a weapon......

That is true, however Martin has been one of the worst perimeter defenders at the wing for years now.

I'm not sure I'd like Martin on the Spurs. Spurs are better off giving Kyle all those minutes Martin would receive.

Have a feeling Pop would be playing the wrong guy if Martin does come to SA.

[rasuo214]

He's being paid $7m a year, last time I looked Cojo, Belinelli and Baynes were making that kind of money.

I agree, he's a better player than any of these 3 and he knows that.

The question he has to ask himself is will he stay in limbo with the Wolves or will he sign with a contender and possibly make a difference. That's the $7.3m question and obviously it is a no-brainer even if he walks away from $7.3m.


Really comes down to does he think he can bank more by coming off the bench for the Spurs or some other contender vs sitting a bunch of games for the Wolves. A good playoff run could net him another decent payday to finish off his career. Especially when you consider the cap goes up significantly so a lot teams will have money to spend and that's when teams are more likely to overpay (look at what the Mavs did with Wes Mathews after Deandre rejected them).

[will_spurs]

All buyouts want to be on contenders thats why they drop by mar 1

a) smart players (and agents) like to keep options open
b) there are contenders and "contenders"... it's not really the same going to the Spurs or to the Heat.

Getting bought out simply means keeping open the possibility of being on a playoffs roster. A player's value to more than half the teams in the league would seriously drop if said player can't play in the playoffs.

[Chinook]

I think the reason Minny is entertaining buying him out is because a player like him has no use to a team that's rebuilding. Smart to shave off finances that are allocated towards personnel that has no value towards rebuilding.

Some may say, "Well his experience is valuable to the younger players moving forward." You can get experience for a lot cheaper than 7 million.

He's been awful this year. Pretty much career lows in every advanced or rate stat since his rookie year. I don't think people have realized this. Minny definitely wants to get the young guys minutes. But to be clear, it's not JUST because of that.

[Chinook]

CoJo is not better than Kevin Martin .......... better defender and that's about it!

I don't think you've seen much basketball this year. Martin's been abysmal, and Joseph's been a primary reason for Toronto's surge.

[MaNu4Tres]

He's been awful this year. Pretty much career lows in every advanced or rate stat since his rookie year. I don't think people have realized this. Minny definitely wants to get the young guys minutes. But to be clear, it's not JUST because of that.

I do realize he's overrated. However, I just think 7 million in today's NBA economy is a fair price for a player like Martin.

I actually hope he doesn't sign w/ SA so Pop doesn't reduce Anderson's minutes.

Not that I agree with this, but knowing Pop, once Manu comes back, Anderson likely doesn't see any minutes if Martin comes to SA.

[Chinook]

I do realize he's overrated. However, I just think 7 million in today's NBA economy is a fair price for a player like Martin.

I actually hope he doesn't sign w/ SA so Pop doesn't reduce Anderson's minutes.

Once Manu comes back, Anderson likely doesn't see any minutes if Martin comes to SA.

Martin will be the worst Spurs outside Miller if he's signed. Again, he's been really, really, really bad.

[ceperez]

Martin will be the worst Spurs outside Miller if he's signed. Again, he's been really, really, really bad.

I haven't really watched him play, but can he be really worse than a 39 year old Andre Miller?

[will_spurs]

I don't think you've seen much basketball this year. Martin's been abysmal, and Joseph's been a primary reason for Toronto's surge.

Yet their stats are eerily similar despite K-Mart playing 5 fewer mpg.

Anyway his 3p shooting (37%) and FT (88%) are just right where they've always been. K-Mart, if he signs, would definitely be used as a Manu insurance, kinda combo PG-SG. As with all the vets, his task would be quite limited: don't make stupid mistakes, don't turn the ball over, don't take bad shots, don't pass up on an open 3. It's not rocket science but that's where experience shines.

[Emperor]

Martin will be the worst Spurs outside Miller if he's signed. Again, he's been really, really, really bad.

Let's not forget Boris Diaw wasn't all too great when he was with Charlotte, and although Martin isn't as versatile, as long as he is capable of atleast hitting a few good shots for us in playoffs, what more can we ask? Same thing with Miller.

[Chinook]

Yet their stats are eerily similar despite K-Mart playing 5 fewer mpg.

They're only similar if you squint and eliminate everything that makes Joseph better.


Anyway his 3p shooting (37%) and FT (88%) are just right where they've always been.

Yet his TS% is lower than it's been every year but his rookie season. Could it be the 38 percent he's shooting from two?


K-Mart, if he signs, would definitely be used as a Manu insurance, kinda combo PG-SG.

Martin has 2.8 assists per 100 possessions this year. To reference, Green has 3.6 ap100. They better not let that dude play point.


As with all the vets, his task would be quite limited: don't make stupid mistakes, don't turn the ball over, don't take bad shots, don't pass up on an open 3. It's not rocket science but that's where experience shines.

Martin would have the worst A/TO of any Spur outside Boban and Simmons. He can only spot up from the left wing, which is nice, but the Spurs already have guys who shoot best from there. He's a known playoff choker, so I don't know that he has great playoff experience to draw from. And finally, the dude's a chucker. He's not Nick Young bad, but he would have the lowest eFG% out of any Spur this season.

[Chinook]

Let's not forget Boris Diaw wasn't all too great when he was with Charlotte, and although Martin isn't as versatile, as long as he is capable of atleast hitting a few good shots for us in playoffs, what more can we ask? Same thing with Miller.

Diaw was always a Spur at heart. He just isn't consistently professional enough to play non-Spurs basketball. His usage percentage this season would be fifth-highest on the Spurs, fourth if you disregard Boban. And this is with him being really inefficient if the whistle isn't going for him.

[TheDoctor]

He's been awful this year.
This isn't completely true. K-Mart had a very good start to the season. All changed after he suffered an injury (mid December I think) which sidelined him for 4-5 games. By the time he came back, the Wolves had decided to start Wiggins at the 2, which cut K-Mart's minutes to not playing him at all. This was a Front Office decision in favor of a "we need to start developing the young guys" vision.

[Chinook]

This isn't completely true. K-Mart had a very good start to the season. All changed after he suffered an injury (mid December I think) which sidelined him for 4-5 games. By the time he came back, the Wolves had decided to start Wiggins at the 2, which cut K-Mart's minutes to not playing him at all. This was a Front Office decision in favor of a "we need to start developing the young guys" vision.

That doesn't explain why his efficiency and advanced stats make him out to be a dumpster fire.

[ceperez]

That doesn't explain why his efficiency and advanced stats make him out to be a dumpster fire.

It is hard to explain why PATFO signed up Andre Miller. If they sign K-mart, then obviously they've got info that says he'll be worth a roster spot.

Some good indicators (1) good size at 6'7" (2) career 38.5% from 3 and 87% from FT (3) averaged over 20ppg most of his career. Spurs already have LMA who is underwelming, I don't see how Martin will hurt the team.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

It is hard to explain why PATFO signed up Andre Miller. If they sign K-mart, then obviously they've got info that says he'll be worth a roster spot.

Some good indicators (1) good size at 6'7" (2) career 38.5% from 3 and 87% from FT (3) averaged over 20ppg most of his career. Spurs already have LMA who is underwelming, I don't see how Martin will hurt the team.

Problem with LMA isn't LMA. It's Duncan. Duncan plays close to the paint and crowds LMA out of his sweet spots. That is why you have seen a drop in his stats since Duncan has returned. But on the flip side, the SPurs are a better defensive team with Duncan.

Martin is a defensive liability. Yes, he is a good 3 pt shooter, who can provide spacing. Plus he has better handles than Green and possibly even Kawhi. So Martin comes with a lose some give some tag. If he signs with the Spurs, it will be interesting to see how Pop uses him.

[will_spurs]

They're only similar if you squint and eliminate everything that makes Joseph better.

2pt FG%. That's about it. Unless you consider something to the tune of 1 apg to be a game-changer.


Yet his TS% is lower than it's been every year but his rookie season. Could it be the 38 percent he's shooting from two?

The Spurs don't have enough players shooting 3s, why should we worry about his 2pt FG%? Plus it's a fluke so far, could be he fell off a cliff, could just be an aberration.


Martin has 2.8 assists per 100 possessions this year. To reference, Green has 3.6 ap100. They better not let that dude play point.

As if assists were relevant for a PG in the Spurs system. As I said, it's just a question of being able to protect the ball. If you've been watching Spurs games since Manu's injury, every time Tony isn't on the floor the Spurs seem to be playing "who can throw the shittiest pass?"

None of the guards/wings on the current Spurs team has any handles except Tony and Manu.


Martin would have the worst A/TO of any Spur outside Boban and Simmons.

Interestingly you have to bring A/TO to the conversation instead of just looking at TO... I wonder why. He turns the ball over once in 20 minutes on average.

I'm not saying he's a great fit or even that I want him on the team, especially if Miller passes his physical. I think the Spurs played the deflection game once more, showing interest in K-Mart while aiming for Miller all along. Actually I don't think the Spurs are really interested in him, so I don't care much to know if he gets a buyout or not. But for a washed-up player I'm sure he can still contribute a thing or two.

[ceperez]

Problem with LMA isn't LMA. It's Duncan. Duncan plays close to the paint and crowds LMA out of his sweet spots. That is why you have seen a drop in his stats since Duncan has returned. But on the flip side, the SPurs are a better defensive team with Duncan.

Martin is a defensive liability. Yes, he is a good 3 pt shooter, who can provide spacing. Plus he has better handles than Green and possibly even Kawhi. So Martin comes with a lose some give some tag. If he signs with the Spurs, it will be interesting to see how Pop uses him.

LMA came in also with similar reputation as a poor defender. At 6'7" and having decent quickness, KMart have decent defense.

I'm just saying that the argument that K.Mart isn't worth it is total B.S. given that the Spurs are paying him next to nothing.

[Brazil]

Diaw was always a Spur at heart. He just isn't consistently professional enough to play non-Spurs basketball. His usage percentage this season would be fifth-highest on the Spurs, fourth if you disregard Boban. And this is with him being really inefficient if the whistle isn't going for him.

Answering a bit of that post and your replies to will_Spurs

Spurs would not use Martin the same way Minny is using him tbh... I don't see how his stats or his horrible season help here to understand what he could bring to the Spurs. It's a silly talk right there.

Compare David West stats in 14-15 and 15-16... dude was shooting .471 he is now .575 if you go TS% he was .5 and now he is .6... What matters in Mart case is his 3P% globally, we don't care about FTs and FTAs he won't have PT to pile up that stat. Same with his .38 on 2 pts, you think Pop is gonna let him take those mid range jumpers when his squad is already full of reliable mid range shooters ? Mart is a 22 mpg player with Minny, he would probably be a 10-15 mpg player for the Spurs to bring some 3s threat that's about it.

I'm not saying that he is a good player or denying his poor season so far but let's not dismiss his signing based on stats and usage while playing for Minny.

He can handle the ball and shoot 3s, Spurs won't ask him to be a playmaker and efficient scorer, just a 10 mn dude shooting 3s and capable to handle the ball.

[Chinook]

Plus he has better handles than Green and possibly even Kawhi.

Handles or not, Martin is shooting 38 percent from two this season, which would be the worst out of any Spur (yes, even worse than Green). While he hasn't been that bad for most of his career, he has been really awful at shooting from the right side of the floor inside the arc. People underestimate how limited Martin actually is.

[ceperez]

Answering a bit of that post and your replies to will_Spurs

Spurs would not use Martin the same way Minny is using him tbh... I don't see how his stats or his horrible season help here to understand what he could bring to the Spurs. It's a silly talk right there.

Compare David West stats in 14-15 and 15-16... dude was shooting .471 he is now .575 if you go TS% he was .5 and now he is .6... What matters in Mart case is his 3P% globally, we don't care about FTs and FTAs he won't have PT to pile up that stat. Same with his .38 on 2 pts, you think Pop is gonna let him take those mid range jumpers when his squad is already full of reliable mid range shooters ? Mart is a 22 mpg player with Minny, he would probably be a 10-15 mpg player for the Spurs to bring some 3s threat that's about it.

I'm not saying that he is a good player or denying his poor season so far but let's not dismiss his signing based on stats and usage while playing for Minny.

He can handle the ball and shoot 3s, Spurs won't ask him to be a playmaker and efficient scorer, just a 10 mn dude shooting 3s and capable to handle the ball.

I agree! Lot's of people arguing against this are likely brain dead.

KMart will be asked to shoot the wide open 3, not run plays. There are plenty of playmakers on the team already!

Honestly, I think if we get KMart, that'll put us over the hump over GSW. KMart is big enough to cover Livingston, which I honestly think is one of the biggest threats of GSW.

[cutewizard]

Hope we get him

[Atl Spur]

It's funny how some believe their opinion is gold! Martin has specific skills the spurs can use in pressure packed situations; shooting open jumpers in the spurs system vs. having to create your own in other systems will definitely yield more positive results one can only hope.

[San Antonio Slayer]

I lost the main point in all these posts...Has Martin already been waived by the Wolves?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Handles or not, Martin is shooting 38 percent from two this season, which would be the worst out of any Spur (yes, even worse than Green). While he hasn't been that bad for most of his career, he has been really awful at shooting from the right side of the floor inside the arc. People underestimate how limited Martin actually is.

Minny system or lack their of, vs. the Spurs system. Only have to look at players like Neal, Beli, etc. to see how much of an impact open shots really help a players FG%.

Martin is limited but he is also a good shooter. He is basically Beli 2.0. If Spurs sign ok, if not ok. It just give Pop another shooter to work with.

[dunkman]

K-Mart is a great shooter, the Spurs had to let Belli go to sign LMA. This is the chance to replace him. His defense won't be so important as he will be a reserve for the Spurs going against second string players, which within the Spurs system should increase his TS. However, it takes time to learn how to play for Pop. Not sure if K-Mart can have any impact for the team this season.

[cd98]

Why all the nonsense. Getting Martin for the league minimum is a no-brainer.

[Chinook]

Spurs would not use Martin the same way Minny is using him tbh...

Compare David West stats in 14-15 and 15-16... dude was shooting .471 he is now .575 if you go TS% he was .5 and now he is .6... .

People always assume a Spurs bump, as if the system magically makes them better players. I imagine if the Spurs do want to sign Martin and give him minutes, they would give him the Beli touches. The issue is that he isn't a great spot-up guy unless he's on the left wing, and that limits his usefulness to the team (Spurs players in general already crowd the left side of the floor too much). Not to mention that his lower release point makes him less effective coming off screens (especially on the right side of the floor).

West was just in a bad position last year where he had to do it all while also coming back from an injury. In fact, in Indy in general West had to do too much, take too many shots. In SA, he's bee more selective about the long-twos he shoots. And he's getting more high-lows being on the court with Duncan and Diaw so much. He's just a much better offensive fit than Martin.


What matters in Mart case is his 3P% globally, we don't care about FTs and FTAs he won't have PT to pile up that stat. Same with his .38 on 2 pts, you think Pop is gonna let him take those mid range jumpers when his squad is already full of reliable mid range shooters ?

I totally think the two-pointers and free throws matter. As I said, he'll be coming in the Beli role. There were better spot-up guys to get, of they could just play Butler. They want someone who isn't just going to sit in the (left) corner and not put pressure on the defense. On paper, Martin can do a lot more with the ball than Green can. But in practice, his game is a little antiquated.


I'm not saying that he is a good player or denying his poor season so far but let's not dismiss his signing based on stats and usage while playing for Minny.

He has a career full of reasons to dismiss his signing. But his stats from this season show why he's not as good as people remember him being. I'm not against bringing him in (even proposed trading for him in a salary dump this off-season if the Spurs lost Manu and Tim. But he's not a rotation player right now.


He can handle the ball and shoot 3s, Spurs won't ask him to be a playmaker and efficient scorer, just a 10 mn dude shooting 3s and capable to handle the ball.

He can physically hold onto a basketball, if that's what you mean. If you're asking him to be a worse version of Butler, I mean, you've already got Butler.

[ceperez]

He's owed the remainder of this year's salary and has a player option for next season.

you are right. its $7.3m next year. so it can cost Minny $7.3m or a lot less if he's waived.

[Chinook]

It's funny how some believe their opinion is gold!

You being chief among them. You clearly are consulting no resources if you believe Kevin Martin is great at shooting open shots in pressure situations.

[ceperez]

He can physically hold onto a basketball, if that's what you mean. If you're asking him to be a worse version of Butler, I mean, you've already got Butler.

There indeed is an argument to be made of having Martin over Butler. There is however no argument if we are talking here about Bonner.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

There indeed is an argument to be made of having Martin over Butler. There is however no argument if we are talking here about Bonner.

Miller and Martin vs. Ray and Bonner. Let me think about this for a minute. Bonner looks done. And with Butler and Anderson showing they can play the 4 as well, the Spurs have 5 guys in front of Bonner. He will get waived and join the FO if the Martin is waived and the Spurs sign him.

I am not a big fan of Martin, but he will provide that outside shooter the Spurs need since Beli has left. The guys is only 33.

[NameLess Scrub]

Miller and Martin vs. Ray and Bonner. Let me think about this for a minute. Bonner looks done. And with Butler and Anderson showing they can play the 4 as well, the Spurs have 5 guys in front of Bonner. He will get waived and join the FO if the Martin is waived and the Spurs sign him.

I am not a big fan of Martin, but he will provide that outside shooter the Spurs need since Beli has left. The guys is only 33.

That's like 33teen in Spurs system :lol

[DJR210]

The Prodigal Son stays in SA.. Bonner is about to sign a 4 year lifetime achievement contract with the Spurs, he ain't going anywhere.

[Brazil]

People always assume a Spurs bump, as if the system magically makes them better players. I imagine if the Spurs do want to sign Martin and give him minutes, they would give him the Beli touches. The issue is that he isn't a great spot-up guy unless he's on the left wing, and that limits his usefulness to the team (Spurs players in general already crowd the left side of the floor too much). Not to mention that his lower release point makes him less effective coming off screens (especially on the right side of the floor).

West was just in a bad position last year where he had to do it all while also coming back from an injury. In fact, in Indy in general West had to do too much, take too many shots. In SA, he's bee more selective about the long-twos he shoots. And he's getting more high-lows being on the court with Duncan and Diaw so much. He's just a much better offensive fit than Martin.

:lol I have never said Spurs system will magically change shooting % or tranform a donkey into a horse, not sure why you are bringing up that shit here. I used West as an example of how it is misleading to use present stats for this kind of signing to evaluate how good or bad a player will be. West is shooting better because his usage is down, Spurs don't need him to carry scoring load so yeah shoot selection is gonna be better... nothing magical or the "system" in that. Point is if you went last year West shooting % sucks so he is not a good signing road last year, you would have been a fool.

Comparaison with Beli touches is fine tho. I'm fine with last sentences :lol that's exactly my point. That's where KMart is too this year with Minny.




I totally think the two-pointers and free throws matter. As I said, he'll be coming in the Beli role. There were better spot-up guys to get, of they could just play Butler. They want someone who isn't just going to sit in the (left) corner and not put pressure on the defense. On paper, Martin can do a lot more with the ball than Green can. But in practice, his game is a little antiquated.

Of course they matter but you don't take him for that in this stage of his career. For 10 mpg again it's not a big deal, with minny he has to create a bit for himself, SA won't ask him to do that. His FGAs will be mostly assisted. As a whole less FGAs, lower usage, more assisted = better FG%. For the record for me Mart < Beli.



He has a career full of reasons to dismiss his signing. But his stats from this season show why he's not as good as people remember him being. I'm not against bringing him in (even proposed trading for him in a salary dump this off-season if the Spurs lost Manu and Tim. But he's not a rotation player right now.

His stats from this season are totally irrelevant except for 3 pts. I'm talking here on offense, on defense no need to check out stats to know he sucks. Used 10 - 15 mpg for shooting 3s with second unit he is a rotation player for the Spurs and more than that for most nba teams.


He can physically hold onto a basketball, if that's what you mean. If you're asking him to be a worse version of Butler, I mean, you've already got Butler.

I don't ask anything tbh... I did not follow him at all this season and Idgaf tbh I'm just pointing out you cannot evaluate his potential impact based on his current performance... If signed by Spurs his role, touches, responsabilities will change drastically

[ceperez]

Miller and Martin vs. Ray and Bonner. Let me think about this for a minute. Bonner looks done. And with Butler and Anderson showing they can play the 4 as well, the Spurs have 5 guys in front of Bonner. He will get waived and join the FO if the Martin is waived and the Spurs sign him.

I am not a big fan of Martin, but he will provide that outside shooter the Spurs need since Beli has left. The guys is only 33.

Miller replaced Ray already. That's a done deal.

The open question is who Martin replaces.

[HarlemHeat37]

Martin is fine as a 9th or 10th man, tbh, playing the role Barbosa plays for the Warriors..

Anybody calling him a "borderline All-Star" is insane, though:lol..it's 2016..

NBA fans and media always overrate players that have name recognition, it's very common, especially with buyout candidates..it's the only pro sport that suffers from name recognition bias, since it's a "faces and names" league..some people here still think Andre Miller can contribute, for instance, because they liked his game 5 years ago:lol

It's probably the same fans that wanted Danny Granger or Caron Butler playing ahead of Kawhi and DG a few years ago(look up the thread, there was a lot of this:lol)..

[ceperez]

Martin is fine as a 9th or 10th man, tbh, playing the role Barbosa plays for the Warriors..

Anybody calling him a "borderline All-Star" is insane, though:lol..it's 2016..

NBA fans and media always overrate players that have name recognition, it's very common, especially with buyout candidates..it's the only pro sport that suffers from name recognition bias, since it's a "faces and names" league..some people here still think Andre Miller can contribute, for instance, because they liked his game 5 years ago:lol

It's probably the same fans that wanted Danny Granger or Caron Butler playing ahead of Kawhi and DG a few years ago(look up the thread, there was a lot of this:lol)..

Well PATFO apparently believes Miller can still play. That is a shocker, but we will have to see!

[HarlemHeat37]

Well PATFO apparently believes Miller can still play. That is a shocker, but we will have to see!

Not necessarily, probably just a mentor/coaching move, sitting at the end of the bench with Bonner IMO..they didn't really have anything to lose, McCallum is atrocious..

[Chinook]

:lol I have never said Spurs system will magically change shooting % or tranform a donkey into a horse, not sure why you are bringing up that shit here.

Because that's pretty much what you're saying. Martin is a surprisingly limited spot-up shooter. Him playing on the Spurs isn't going to make him a better one, just like it didn't for Jimmer. Like Jimmer, Martin is a guy who shoots better when he's not being assisted, because he's better at making space for himself than he is at using the space an offense gives him.


West is shooting better because his usage is down, Spurs don't need him to carry scoring load so yeah shoot selection is gonna be better... nothing magical or the "system" in that. Point is if you went last year West shooting % sucks so he is not a good signing road last year, you would have been a fool.

West is shooting better because he's getting more touches around the rim. He's also able to pass to other guys this year instead of doing it all himself. However, West is an elite mid-range shooter, and that's been clear his whole career. He's also been a HoVG player who was just getting too old for this shit. Martin is like an average three-point shooter (his 37 percent is below the Spurs' 40 percent) who is only really a decent scorer when he has the ball in his hands. The best you can hope for is his OKC form to come back. The fact that he is having a bad season with a much better Wolves team doesn't bode well for that, though.


Of course they matter but you don't take him for that in this stage of his career. For 10 mpg again it's not a big deal, with minny he has to create a bit for himself, SA won't ask him to do that. His FGAs will be mostly assisted. As a whole less FGAs, lower usage, more assisted = better FG%. For the record for me Mart < Beli.

His stats from this season are totally irrelevant except for 3 pts. I'm talking here on offense, on defense no need to check out stats to know he sucks. Used 10 - 15 mpg for shooting 3s with second unit he is a rotation player for the Spurs and more than that for most nba teams.

I feel like you're missing the whole picture of Martin trying to focus on three-pointers. It's the same shit people were doing with Jimmer. Martin isn't that great of a spot-up guy because of his awkward release. It almost completely pushes him out of the corner (only 15 percent of his shots from there this year, which would put him behind only Manu and Diaw for guys who spot up from that range). Combine that with his inability to play well from the right side, and you get a guy who doesn't help you out like you think he does.


I did not follow him at all this season and Idgaf tbh I'm just pointing out you cannot evaluate his potential impact based on his current performance...

There's a difference between saying, "Martin is not a better player than Joseph", and "Martin can't help the Spurs." Martin isn't a good player, and his stats do show that. But he could turn it around. The only reason to believe he can though is because you believe the Spurs system will make him better than he actually is.

[Chinook]

Martin is fine as a 9th or 10th man, tbh, playing the role Barbosa plays for the Warriors..

Anybody calling him a "borderline All-Star" is insane, though:lol..it's 2016..

NBA fans and media always overrate players that have name recognition, it's very common, especially with buyout candidates..it's the only pro sport that suffers from name recognition bias, since it's a "faces and names" league..some people here still think Andre Miller can contribute, for instance, because they liked his game 5 years ago:lol

It's probably the same fans that wanted Danny Granger or Caron Butler playing ahead of Kawhi and DG a few years ago(look up the thread, there was a lot of this:lol)..

Buyout candidates are usually not very good players. If Martin were good, Minny would want to keep him. He's signed to a contract that's great for a rotation player. But he's not really a rotation player right now.

[HarlemHeat37]

Buyout candidates are usually not very good players. If Martin were good, Minny would want to keep him. He's signed to a contract that's great for a rotation player. But he's not really a rotation player right now.

I think people's perception, especially here, is skewed because of Diaw's contributions as a buyout player, obviously ignoring the circumstances around why he was struggling prior to joining the Spurs..

[benefactor]

And finally, the dude's a chucker. He's not Nick Young bad, but he would have the lowest eFG% out of any Spur this season.
...which is why they are looking at him. Pop loves him a designated chucker.:lol

[Chinook]

I think people's perception, especially here, is skewed because of Diaw's contributions as a buyout player, obviously ignoring the circumstances around why he was struggling prior to joining the Spurs..

ESPECIALLY the buyout candidates with another year on their deals. To make it worse, he may not even get bought out because he doesn't want to give up that option year. How many red flags do you need?

[Chinook]

...which is why they are looking at him. Pop loves him a designated chucker.:lol

Sure seems to. Speaking of which, I wonder if Neal considered a buyout. He'd be a much better fit than Martin would. Hell, he'd've been better than Miller too.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Buyout candidates are usually not very good players. If Martin were good, Minny would want to keep him. He's signed to a contract that's great for a rotation player. But he's not really a rotation player right now.

That's is not always the case. When decent players do get bought it usually several reasons are in play. Younger players (high draft picks) that said team wants to develop (Martin), could be a salary dump (Johnson), injury prone (Varajeo) or overweight (Diaw, just joking).

And if you look at the most efficient season for Martin it was when he came off the bench for OKC, and OKC more than likely would have made the WCF finals had WB not gotten injured in the 1st round, which we all were happy about. So Martin has proven he can be good rotational player if he is on a team that provides him spacing. Shot .426 from 3 that year. The best mark in this career.

[AlexJones]

it's the only pro sport that suffers from name recognition bias
existent in hockey and baseball too

If the NBA were like the NFL, last year Pop would've given Tony Parker the Randy Moss treatment tbh

[Chinook]

That's is not always the case. When decent players do get bought it usually several reasons are in play ... that said team wants to develop (Martin),

Really, no. It's because he sucks. The Wolves aren't the Sixers. They love having vets on their team.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Really, no. It's because he sucks. The Wolves aren't the Sixers. They love having vets on their team.

I wouldn't say he sucks as much as I would say he has been playing poorly this year. He has shown he is capable of playing better than he has this year. I don't really care for Martin, but I could see the Spurs wanting him to add another shooter to the roster. Bonner looks done, really strained his muscle playing 3 minutes in a game. I would waive Bonner to sign Martin at this point.

At the league minimum, Martin is not a bad guy to have on the back end of the roster.

[Mel_13]

Really, no. It's because he sucks. The Wolves aren't the Sixers. They love having vets on their team.

I don't believe the Wolves have any real interest in buying out Martin. I'm convinced that all the chatter is coming from Martin's side. If I'm Minny, I wouldn't give Martin a dime for his 2016-17 option, and I'd bet that their unwillingness to do so accounts for the lack of movement.

[Chinook]

I don't believe the Wolves have any real interest in buying out Martin. I'm convinced that all the chatter is coming from Martin's side. If I'm Minny, I wouldn't give Martin a dime for his 2016-17 option, and I'd bet that their unwillingness to do so accounts for the lack of movement.

Yeah. And Martin is desperately trying to get some of that money because he knows he's not worth $7 Million on the open market anymore.

[Chinook]

I wouldn't say he sucks as much as I would say he has been playing poorly this year. He has shown he is capable of playing better than he has this year. I don't really care for Martin, but I could see the Spurs wanting him to add another shooter to the roster. Bonner looks done, really strained his muscle playing 3 minutes in a game. I would waive Bonner to sign Martin at this point.

At the league minimum, Martin is not a bad guy to have on the back end of the roster.

I think Martin would be pretty decent as the main scorer on the bench (NOT the sixth man) whose job it is to just put up shots so starters can rest. That's similar to what Crawford does. In a lost year like next season would be without Tim and Manu (and especially if they take their money and go home), there are worst players to have. But he's not a guy you work into a championship system. He's just not.

[ceperez]

I don't believe the Wolves have any real interest in buying out Martin. I'm convinced that all the chatter is coming from Martin's side. If I'm Minny, I wouldn't give Martin a dime for his 2016-17 option, and I'd bet that their unwillingness to do so accounts for the lack of movement.

Wolves already telegraphing that they don't need Martin.
Martin wants buy out, but wants compensation for that player option.
I doubt he'll get it 'coz it'll look really ugly. Blackmailing a team isn't going to get you far in the future.
Martin is 33, his time is running out... he will fold.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I think Martin would be pretty decent as the main scorer on the bench (NOT the sixth man) whose job it is to just put up shots so starters can rest. That's similar to what Crawford does. In a lost year like next season would be without Tim and Manu (and especially if they take their money and go home), there are worst players to have. But he's not a guy you work into a championship system. He's just not.

I'll agree. I never said he was. I just said he is a good player to provide the Spurs spacing, mostly in the regular season. His defense is the reason I wouldn't want him in the playoffs. Hell, even old man Miller plays better D than Martin at this point. Gives another player for the Spurs to matchup other teams as well.

[Mel_13]

Wolves already telegraphing that they don't need Martin.
Martin wants buy out, but wants compensation for that player option.
I doubt he'll get it 'coz it'll look really ugly.
Martin is 33, his time is running out... he will fold.

How it looks is irrelevant. Minny simply has no financial reason to pay Martin for his option year.

I agree with you that Martin only gets the buyout if he folds on getting paid for the option.

[Ice009]

How much time is left before the buyout playoff eligibility deadline?

[Mel_13]

As far as the Martin the player goes, he helps the Spurs more than Bonner at this point. I wouldn't cut Butler to sign Martin, but Bonner has zero value as a player, so Martin would be an improvement.

[baseline bum]

11 pages over fucking Kevin Martin :lol

[Chinook]

As far as the Martin the player goes, he helps the Spurs more than Bonner at this point. I wouldn't cut Butler to sign Martin, but Bonner has zero value as a player, so Martin would be an improvement.

I would have cut Bonner over McCallum on the off chance that two of Parker, Mills and Miller got hurt or the even less likely possibility of Ray playing well enough to become an asset as an RFA next year.

[Mel_13]

How much time is left before the buyout playoff eligibility deadline?

The Wolves have to submit a waiver request by the time the league offices close tomorrow afternoon, IIRC. If that is done, he can be signed at any time before the end of the season and still be eligible for the playoffs.

[ceperez]

As far as the Martin the player goes, he helps the Spurs more than Bonner at this point. I wouldn't cut Butler to sign Martin, but Bonner has zero value as a player, so Martin would be an improvement.

Assuming Spurs have already sent out feelers to Martin, then you can pretty much assume they've already discussed this with Bonner. I would be surprised if they cut Butler. I would be shocked if they cut anyone else!

[$pursDynasty]

How much time is left before the buyout playoff eligibility deadline?
has to be done by Tuesday because he has to be on the roster by Wednesday to be playoff eligible which is the only reason you do this.

[TheDoctor]

11 pages over fucking Kevin Martin :lol

4 pages for me. Good thing about maxing out the number of posts per thread.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I would have cut Bonner over McCallum on the off chance that two of Parker, Mills and Miller got hurt or the even less likely possibility of Ray playing well enough to become an asset as an RFA next year.

Ray just didn't have the IQ to play in the Spurs system. That was my observation back in the preseason, which is why I was surprised the Spurs cut Jimmer over him. I just came to the summation that the Spurs kept Ray b/c he was younger and more athletic. With that said, I don't think Jimmer would have made a huge impact either this year, but I thought he was the better prospect to develop over Ray, just my opinion. Because if you look at the preseason tape, Jimmer was better than Ray, by a lot to be honest. Spurs have Manu and Anderson who can still handle the ball, along with Diaw. Ray's playmaking abilities were the worse on the team TBH.

I like the Miller pickup. The guy is a Great passer and will fit right in the Spurs system. Spurs have KA/Parker/Miller/Mills/Manu/Simmons at the guard option. That is not bad depth at this point.

[SpursFan86]

11 pages over fucking Kevin Martin :lol

Looks perfectly reasonable compared to the fucking 125+ page thread dedicated to Jimmer Fredette :lol

[baseline bum]

Looks perfectly reasonable compared to the fucking 125+ page thread dedicated to Jimmer Fredette :lol

That's just some dumbass trolling though. Martin was never shit even back in his Sacramento days.

[coachmac87]

Signing Martin is a no brainier. That's even if we cut Butler to get him..

Martin has his flaws but he's somebody who can drop 20pts any given night and that's huge coming off the bench. This team needs scorers more than anything right now and that's exactly what he is. There's zero risk in signing Martin..

I'd expect and prefer Bonner to get cut but if you're seriously choosing Rasual Butler over Kevin Martin you're a fucking idiot and even more of one if you're also second guessing the Spurs FO decisions

[Chinook]

Signing Martin is a no brainier. That's even if we cut Butler to get him..

Martin has his flaws but he's somebody who can drop 20pts any given night and that's huge coming off the bench. This team needs scorers more than anything right now and that's exactly what he is. There's zero risk in signing Martin..

I'd expect and prefer Bonner to get cut but if you're seriously choosing Rasual Butler over Kevin Martin you're a fucking idiot and even more of one if you're also second guessing the Spurs FO decisions

Thanks, Coach.

[Mel_13]

Thanks, Coach.

:lol

[benefactor]

has to be done by Tuesday because he has to be on the roster by Wednesday to be playoff eligible which is the only reason you do this.


The Wolves have to submit a waiver request by the time the league offices close tomorrow afternoon, IIRC. If that is done, he can be signed at any time before the end of the season and still be eligible for the playoffs.

[SpursFan86]

Chinook

Out of curiosity, what was your opinion of the Belinelli signing? Seems like Martin last year looked at least as good as Belinelli looked his last year in Chicago, and if Martin did come here, he'd likely be playing the same role as Belinelli did (although hopefully Pop wouldn't play Martin instead of Green like he did with Belinelli).

I don't think Martin is a very good player, but this team is sorely lacking in 3-point shooting. Martin is a career 38-39% 3-point shooter on respectable volume. Shot 40% on catch-and-shoot 3's last season. He's horrible defensively, but I have a hard time imagining him being any worse than Belinelli.

If the Spurs can replace Bonner with Martin, you do that for sure IMO. If he plays well for the rest of the regular season, give him 10-15 minutes a night in the playoffs. If he looks like shit, only use him in garbage time or when everyone else is shitting the bed. Regardless, I think Martin making an impact in the playoffs is more likely than Bonner doing so.

[$pursDynasty]

Signing Martin is a no brainier. That's even if we cut Butler to get him..

Martin has his flaws but he's somebody who can drop 20pts any given night and that's huge coming off the bench. This team needs scorers more than anything right now and that's exactly what he is. There's zero risk in signing Martin..

I'd expect and prefer Bonner to get cut but if you're seriously choosing Rasual Butler over Kevin Martin you're a fucking idiot and even more of one if you're also second guessing the Spurs FO decisions

Good point most of my memories of Martin were his failed attempt to replace Harden at OKC, that being said he is the type of player you need more of come playoff time a 2/3 that can score than a stretch 4, even tough three point shooting is at a premium, I am not sure Bonner is useful in a Dubs series.

[NASpurs]

F5

MEH.

F5

MEH.

...

[look_at_g_shred]

If martin was as shitty as alot of people are claiming, the spurs wouldn't be wanting to sign him. He obviously adds something to the team that we need and the FO recognizes that. Simmons and Butler don't offer the same offensive production.

[will_spurs]

Anybody calling him a "borderline All-Star" is insane, though:lol..it's 2016..

When I said he was a borderline All-Star I was looking back at his career, obviously not right now. But that was in the context of the discussion when I wanted to point out he already got paid in his prime and he's not after a paycheck right now.

[Boogie Munster]

So can we reserve spots on the river walk already for the championship parade?

[coachmac87]

Thanks, Coach.

Seriously convince me why any team would take Rasual Butler over Kevin Martin?

[Mel_13]

If martin was as shitty as alot of people are claiming, the spurs wouldn't be wanting to sign him. He obviously adds something to the team that we need and the FO recognizes that. Simmons and Butler don't offer the same offensive production.

Actually, there's no compelling evidence that the Spurs have any interest at all. Just some twittering attributed to 'sources'.

[$pursDynasty]

If martin was as shitty as alot of people are claiming, the spurs wouldn't be wanting to sign him. He obviously adds something to the team that we need and the FO recognizes that. Simmons and Butler don't offer the same offensive production.
but what production does Bonner give us, period? Besides corporate knowledge which he can share from the coaching side of the bench or front office. Let's just say Anderson, Simmons or especially Butler don't give us much it is still way more than Bonner has given us this season so if anyone must go it is him. He will still get his ring for this season should we win one, no place for sentimentality now.

[look_at_g_shred]

Actually, there's no compelling evidence that the Spurs have any interest at all. Just some twittering attributed to 'sources'.
you're probably right.

[benefactor]

If martin was as shitty as alot of people are claiming, the spurs wouldn't be wanting to sign him. He obviously adds something to the team that we need and the FO recognizes that. Simmons and Butler don't offer the same offensive production.
Pop has always had a soft spot for chuckers. Seems like that part of the Don Nelson influence always stuck with him.

[coachmac87]

Pop has always had a soft spot for chuckers. Seems like that part of the Don Nelson influence always stuck with him.

No. Pop always had something for a player who isn't afraid and has balls. Give me a player who thinks he's better than he really is over a player who's unsure if he even belongs...

[look_at_g_shred]

Perhaps I just want it to be true. Is just my opinion but I want Martin on the roster.

[HarlemHeat37]

No. Pop always had something for a player who isn't afraid and has balls. Give me a player who thinks he's better than he really is over a player who's unsure if he even belongs...

I'm fine with Martin as a deep bench guy, but if you're looking for a nigga with balls, it's not him:lol..he's as soft as they come..

[benefactor]

No. Pop always had something for a player who isn't afraid and has balls. Give me a player who thinks he's better than he really is over a player who's unsure if he even belongs...
:lol...what? Bonner literally only had one skill and Pop treated him like his long lost son for years. Gary Neal didn't make the team because he showed any kind of balls...it's because he shot and made a bunch of threes. Pop loves gunners and chuckers...maybe not as starters, but he's always had a one or two buried on the bench.

[coachmac87]

I'm fine with Martin as a deep bench guy, but if you're looking for a nigga with balls, it's not him:lol..he's as soft as they come..

You missed my point.

Of course you'd be fine to have a potentially 20pt scorer to come off the bench..whether he's the sixth or tenth man. He has upside as a scorer and his strengths is this teams weakness right now. It makes sense for the Spurs to be interested even if it's for cutting Butler.

[Chinook]

Seriously convince me why any team would take Rasual Butler over Kevin Martin?

Butler is a better player. Should be a simple as that, really.

[coachmac87]

Butler is a better player. Should be a simple as that, really.

Prove it

[coachmac87]

:lol...what? Bonner literally only had one skill and Pop treated him like his long lost son for years. Gary Neal didn't make the team because he showed any kind of balls...it's because he shot and made a bunch of threes. Pop loves gunners and chuckers...maybe not as starters, but he's always had a one or two buried on the bench.


Gary Neal did make the team because he had balls and wasn't afraid of anything and like I said thought he was better than he was.

Pop loved Bonner becaus he was an elite 3pt shooter who hustled and busted his ass every time he got on the floor. He's the type of player a coach would fall in love with. I've seen it time and time again.

[Robz4000]

Prove it

When's the last time you saw Martin play? Literally the only thing he does at an NBA level anymore is shoot.

[Chinook]

Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)

Out of curiosity, what was your opinion of the Belinelli signing? Seems like Martin last year looked at least as good as Belinelli looked his last year in Chicago, and if Martin did come here, he'd likely be playing the same role as Belinelli did (although hopefully Pop wouldn't play Martin instead of Green like he did with Belinelli).

I don't think Martin is a very good player, but this team is sorely lacking in 3-point shooting. Martin is a career 38-39% 3-point shooter on respectable volume. Shot 40% on catch-and-shoot 3's last season. He's horrible defensively, but I have a hard time imagining him being any worse than Belinelli.

If the Spurs can replace Bonner with Martin, you do that for sure IMO. If he plays well for the rest of the regular season, give him 10-15 minutes a night in the playoffs. If he looks like shit, only use him in garbage time or when everyone else is shitting the bed. Regardless, I think Martin making an impact in the playoffs is more likely than Bonner doing so.

I think that Pop might want Martin to be the new Beli. But I don't think Kevin can do it. They're completely different players. K-Mart is closer to Jimmer. Anyway, I wasn't a fan of the Beli signing because I thought Mills should get those minutes if Neal weren't being brought back. I don't think he was a huge success in SA, either. The best thing he had going for him is that he's awesome moving without the ball, and that's not Martin's strong suit.

Sure, you take him over Bonner. But you don't give him a rotation spot. The idea that he's getting 10-15 MPG is absurd to me, though I could totally see it happening.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

So can we reserve spots on the river walk already for the championship parade?
Does the San Francisco Bay count as a river?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

F5

MEH.

F5

MEH.

...
Dude, this isn't last July.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Prove it

Watch Basketball and anybody with an IQ over 75 could see Butler is playing much better than Martin right now. Butler has proven he can play the 4 in small ball lineups and is very effective against the 3. He was shutting down Iggy's ass when Pop actually played him against the Warriors.

I wouldn't even phantom the Idea of cutting Butler for Martin if I were in the Spurs FO. Bonner, any day of the week and have him join the staff.

[coachmac87]

When's the last time you saw Martin play? Literally the only thing he does at an NBA level anymore is shoot.

I've seen Martin drop 37. I've seen Butler block a shot..

Martin still has an legit NBA talent..like you said shooting.

[coachmac87]

Watch Basketball and anybody with an IQ over 75 could see Butler is playing much better than Martin right now. Butler has proven he can play the 4 in small ball lineups and is very effective against the 3. He was shutting down Iggy's ass when Pop actually played him against the Warriors.

I wouldn't even phantom the Idea of cutting Butler for Martin if I were in the Spurs FO. Bonner, any day of the week and have him join the staff.


Lmao Ok. Sooooo if Butler gets cut for Martin are you really going to second guess the FO? Like the FO doesn't know what they have in Butler? Or see what Martin has done this year?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Watch Basketball and anybody with an IQ over 75 could see Butler is playing much better than Martin right now. Butler has proven he can play the 4 in small ball lineups and is very effective against the 3. He was shutting down Iggy's ass when Pop actually played him against the Warriors.

I wouldn't even phantom the Idea of cutting Butler for Martin if I were in the Spurs FO. Bonner, any day of the week and have him join the staff.
So who do we put in when Ibaka is blocking every shot of ours in the paint? Diaw, the guy who gets the ball behind the 3 point line, pump fakes NO ONE and then drives halfway in and passes it back out? :lol

[coachmac87]

I'm not saying Martin is the savior and its a must signing.

But I'll argue all day and put up my basketball knowledge against anyone that says Butler is a better player than Martin

[look_at_g_shred]

How do we get Conley in FA? Assuming Manu doesn't come back.

[Robz4000]

I'm not saying Martin is the savior and its a must signing.

But I'll argue all day and put up my basketball knowledge against anyone that says Butler is a better player than Martin

What Butler brings to the Spurs is more valuable than whatever Martin would bring.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

I'm not saying Martin is the savior and its a must signing.

But I'll argue all day and put up my basketball knowledge against anyone that says Butler is a better player than Martin
TinMan is Manu insurance. He knows how to get to the rim and draw fouls, and shoots near 90% from the line. Not a bad three point shooter, either. In his prime with the Kings and Thunder, he was basically a poor man's Curry/Durant hybrid before Curry came to fame.

[Robz4000]

TinMan is Manu insurance. He knows how to get to the rim and draw fouls, and shoots near 90% from the line. Not a bad three point shooter, either. In his prime with the Kings and Thunder, he was basically a poor man's Curry/Durant hybrid before Curry came to fame.

:lmao

[UNT Eagles 2016]

How do we get Conley in FA? Assuming Manu doesn't come back.
S&T for parker and a 2nd rounder.

[Chinook]

Prove it

Pretty much every advanced stat favors Butler, as he's a non-chucker who plays defense.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

:lmao
No lie, though. He pissed me off whenever we had to play the Kings when all the focus was on Artest and Bonzi Wells. AND he was a very legit 3rd wheel in OKC, though not Harden he was an adequate replacement that year before Westbrook went down.

[coachmac87]

What Butler brings to the Spurs is more valuable than whatever Martin would bring.

Which is what? And chances are Spurs FO agrees with me.

The problem is y'all have seen Butler play with the Spurs and y'all haven't seen Martin play. But the upside is with Martin and its worth a shot to look at. His shooting alone brings more. Y'all guys are really defending a guy who hasn't played over 25mins in a game all season...

[Robz4000]

No lie, though. He pissed me off whenever we had to play the Kings when all the focus was on Artest and Bonzi Wells. AND he was a very legit 3rd wheel in OKC, though not Harden he was an adequate replacement that year before Westbrook went down.

Comparing him to Curry or Durant is like comparing UNT to MIT tbh. It's an insult.

[coachmac87]

Pretty much every advanced stat favors Butler, as he's a non-chucker who plays defense.

Damn. I guess the Spurs FO doesn't have access to that...

Wow maybe they don't know what they're doing...and posters on ST do?

[Chinook]

Lmao Ok. Sooooo if Butler gets cut for Martin are you really going to second guess the FO?

Shit yeah. Same way I second-guessed them guaranteeing Jimmer money. It's easy.

[benefactor]

Damn. I guess the Spurs FO doesn't have access to that...

Wow maybe they don't know what they're doing...and posters on ST do?
Why the fuck do you keep saying this? There is absolutely zero confirmation that they are interested or would cut Butler to add him.

[Robz4000]

Which is what? And chances are Spurs FO agrees with me.

The problem is y'all have seen Butler play with the Spurs and y'all haven't seen Martin play. But the upside is with Martin and its worth a shot to look at. His shooting alone brings more. Y'all guys are really defending a guy who hasn't played over 25mins in a game all season...

Everything on the other end tbh. Martin is a great shooter and might score 25 in a playoff game, but having someone who can score 10 points while shutting down an opposing team's best bench wing/smallball PF consistently while mentoring future Spurs players is much more valuable.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Comparing him to Curry or Durant is like comparing UNT to MIT tbh. It's an insult.
MIT kids are such snobby gooks. Oh lookey me I'm chinese american and got a >3.5 at MIT, I'm so fucking smart and you're an incompetent dumbass.


From what I've heard, MIT is extremely easy to get high grades in... they're very liberal there and pass pretty much everyone who gives a shit... the only thing is getting admitted, which only a select few do every year. Beyond basic credentials, it's mainly about whether or not the admissions committee likes your stupid tailored essay. It's chickenshit, I tell ya.



Back to the NBA... I said poor man's. He was painfully annoying in that he was super skinny (like Curry), liked to pull up and make random 3s (like Curry) and got so many of his points by driving, initiating contact by running into defenders and drawing fouls (like Durant). Pissed me off.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Everything on the other end tbh. Martin is a great shooter and might score 25 in a playoff game, but having someone who can score 10 points while shutting down an opposing team's best bench wing/smallball PF consistently while mentoring future Spurs players is much more valuable.
so we cut Andershit and have the best of both worlds for any given situation, too. Kawhi/Green/Manu/Martin/Butler/Simmons is a great wing rotation

[Robz4000]

so we cut Andershit and have the best of both worlds for any given situation, too. Kawhi/Green/Manu/Martin/Butler/Simmons is a great wing rotation

We cut Bonner tbh.

[Leetonidas]

coachmac87.... :lmao this is embarrassing

[coachmac87]

Why the fuck do you keep saying this? There is absolutely zero confirmation that they are interested or would cut Butler to add him.

I'm arguing that he's a better player than Butler

[Chinook]

Damn. I guess the Spurs FO doesn't have access to that...

Wow maybe they don't know what they're doing...and posters on ST do?

They apparently didn't with Jimmer. Keep sticking with your logical fallacies, btb.

[coachmac87]

coachmac87.... :lmao this is embarrassing

It must be. Might as well create my "going away thread".

[UNT Eagles 2016]

We cut Bonner tbh.
What if we have to face OKC in the 2nd round. Like I said, Diaw isn't going to pull Ibaka out of the paint. Diaw just pump fakes a ghost, takes a few dribbles in and passes back out tbh.

[Chinook]

I'm arguing that he's a better player than Butler

But you don't have the support that you're asserting you do. Nothing about the Spurs possibly being interested in Martin means they want to cut Butler for him. So you aren't making a cogent argument. You're just spewing butt-hurt and misused appeal to authority fallacies all over this page.

[coachmac87]

They apparently didn't with Jimmer. Keep sticking with your logical fallacies, btb.

Jimmie was a low risk. Just like signing Martin would be a low risk. Or trading a 2nd for Ray. All low risk with potential high rewards.

You can disagree with me all you want. But Spurs have interest in Martin...

[Chinook]

Jimmie was a low risk. Just like signing Martin would be a low risk. Or trading a 2nd for Ray. All low risk with potential high rewards.

None of that means people can't second-guess PATFO.


You can disagree with me all you want. But Spurs have interest in Martin...

I'm not disagreeing that there's a report of interest out. I'm not even asserting they aren't interested. But that doesn't mean Martin is a good player.

[Robz4000]

What if we have to face OKC in the 2nd round. Like I said, Diaw isn't going to pull Ibaka out of the paint. Diaw just pump fakes a ghost, takes a few dribbles in and passes back out tbh.

Spurs won't be benching Duncan or LMA for Bonner, so it's a moot point.

[HarlemHeat37]

Butler has been a mentor to Anderson and Simmons, off the court, which is also a valuable trait, in addition to his solid on-court play, tbh..I dunno, I can't really see the Spurs cutting him when he's been such a class guy, so far, seems like a non-Spurs move..


If somebody gets cut, it has to be Bonner, at this point..all jokes aside, his injury seems serious, and he already looked finished as a player, last year..

Moot point, though, since this is all speculation..Martin may not even get bought out, and the Spurs may not actually be interested..

[coachmac87]

But you don't have the support that you're asserting you do. Nothing about the Spurs possibly being interested in Martin means they want to cut Butler for him. So you aren't making a cogent argument. You're just spewing butt-hurt and misused appeal to authority fallacies all over this page.


It comes down to 2 players Butler or Bonner. I'd cut Bonner over him but Id also cut Butler if it meant getting Martin.

Some people on this board wouldn't. Some think Butler is a better player. I disagree.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Spurs won't be benching Duncan or LMA for Bonner, so it's a moot point.
They can't play 48 minutes. D-Worst is unplayable against OKC, particularly if Diaw is also in the game. That leaves Boban and Bonner... I love Boban but I'm afraid guys would run circles around him.

[dunkman]

Has Woj confirmed this?

[Chinook]

It comes down to 2 players Butler or Bonner. I'd cut Bonner over him but Id also cut Butler if it meant getting Martin.

Some people on this board wouldn't. Some think Butler is a better player. I disagree.

That's fine, but you have zero evidence that the FO supports your view about Martin and Butler. That's only an issue because you're trying to say they do. And even if they did, that's not evidence that Martin is actually better than Butler. It's just an example of a logical fallacy.

[coachmac87]

None of that means people can't second-guess PATFO.



I'm not disagreeing that there's a report of interest out. I'm not even asserting they aren't interested. But that doesn't mean Martin is a good player.


I'm not saying Martin is a good player. But neither is Butler. Teams aren't scared of Butler or have to honor anything he brings to the court.

Martin dropped 37 this year. That's called upside...you can take chance on that if you can..even if it means cutting the well liked 14th man on the bench

[TheDoctor]

...But you don't give him a rotation spot. The idea that he's getting 10-15 MPG is absurd to me, though I could totally see it happening.

If for some reason we get K-Mart and Pop "absurdly" decides to give him a rotation spot (10-15mpg), what can we make from all of this? That Pop lost his mind?

[Robz4000]

They can't play 48 minutes. D-Worst is unplayable against OKC, particularly if Diaw is also in the game. That leaves Boban and Bonner... I love Boban but I'm afraid guys would run circles around him.

Bonner would get manhandled worse than West ever would trying to guard Penis Cancer, and West would have a much better chance abusing his awful defense in the post.

[Chinook]

I'm not saying Martin is a good player. But neither is Butler. Teams aren't scared of Butler or have to honor anything he brings to the court.

Martin dropped 37 this year. That's called upside...you can take chance on that if you can..even if it means cutting the well liked 14th man on the bench

And that's fine. But you get no support from that report of interest. If you liked Martin over Butler, no one is going to fight you. We'll disagree, because Martin sucks. But that's your opinion.

[Mel_13]

I'm not saying Martin is a good player. But neither is Butler. Teams aren't scared of Butler or have to honor anything he brings to the court.

Martin dropped 37 this year. That's called upside...you can take chance on that if you can..even if it means cutting the well liked 14th man on the bench

Even if I agreed with your valuation of Martin v. Butler, I would still second guess the FO if they kept Bonner over Butler.

[Chinook]

If for some reason we get K-Mart and Pop "absurdly" decides to give him a rotation spot (10-15mpg), what can we make from all of this? That Pop lost his mind?

Yep. Wouldn't be the first time.

[benefactor]

Has Woj confirmed this?
Waiting on Wojtek tbh

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Bonner would get manhandled worse than West ever would trying to guard Penis Cancer, and West would have a much better chance abusing his awful defense in the post.
even AnusCancer could block West's shot. He's probably like 7 inches taller than West, too. At least Bonner tries to impede big guys' attacks at the rim. West, on the other hand, is the French government to any offensive player's Hitler.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I'm not saying Martin is a good player. But neither is Butler. Teams aren't scared of Butler or have to honor anything he brings to the court.

Martin dropped 37 this year. That's called upside...you can take chance on that if you can..even if it means cutting the well liked 14th man on the bench

This tells me you don't watch too much of the actual games. Butler is probably the 2nd best man-to-man defender on this team after Kawhi. Butler is a very good defender and a decent offensive player. Martin vs. Butler defense is like night and day. And just for the record, I value shut down defense over chunking offense anyday of the week.

[apalisoc_9]

Butler has deceptive athletic ability and really is the third best rim protactor after Tim and Boban. Nice weapon to have.

[coachmac87]

This tells me you don't watch too much of the actual games. Butler is probably the 2nd best man-to-man defender on this team after Kawhi. Butler is a very good defender and a decent offensive player. Martin vs. Butler defense is like night and day. And just for the record, I value shut down defense over chunking offense anyday of the week.

Just stop. I watch more basketball than you think and it's not just Spurs basketball.

You're overrating Butler. I'm not saying anything about Martin other than he's better player then Butler is. Contract says so...

Think of it this way.. Start of the season Butler and Martin are available for league minimum. Who do Spurs sign? Martin...just like EVERY team in the NBA would

[coachmac87]

Butler has deceptive athletic ability and really is the third best rim protactor after Tim and Boban. Nice weapon to have.

Aldridge says hi

[Mel_13]

Just stop. I watch more basketball than you think and it's not just Spurs basketball.

You're overrating Butler. I'm not saying anything about Martin other than he's better player then Butler is. Contract says so...

Think of it this way.. Start of the season Butler and Martin are available for league minimum. Who do Spurs sign? Martin...just like EVERY team in the NBA would

:rolleyes

Contracts say Kobe is the best player in the NBA.

[coachmac87]

:rolleyes

Contracts say Kobe is the best player in the NBA.

Was that contract signed this summer?

[Mel_13]

Was that contract signed this summer?

Was Martin's?

[Beaverfuzz]

This tells me you don't watch too much of the actual games. Butler is probably the 2nd best man-to-man defender on this team after Kawhi. Butler is a very good defender and a decent offensive player. Martin vs. Butler defense is like night and day. And just for the record, I value shut down defense over chunking offense anyday of the week.

Exactly. Guy has no clue.

[Beaverfuzz]

Just stop. I watch more basketball than you think and it's not just Spurs basketball.

You're overrating Butler. I'm not saying anything about Martin other than he's better player then Butler is. Contract says so...

Think of it this way.. Start of the season Butler and Martin are available for league minimum. Who do Spurs sign? Martin...just like EVERY team in the NBA would


No one would sign Martin, guy is past his prime. I hope he fails his physical.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Just stop. I watch more basketball than you think and it's not just Spurs basketball.

You're overrating Butler. I'm not saying anything about Martin other than he's better player then Butler is. Contract says so...

Think of it this way.. Start of the season Butler and Martin are available for league minimum. Who do Spurs sign? Martin...just like EVERY team in the NBA would

No, the Spurs still sign Butler. It would mean not signing LMA. 1mil salary counting towards the books as opposed to 7mil. Obviously you are infatuated with Martin, but seriously dude, it's not like this guy was extremely high on the Market. Do you know that Martin has only made the playoffs TWICE. Why, because chunkers like him usually shot their team out of a victory as oppose to win games.

[coachmac87]

Was Martin's?

No but Butlers was...I can't recall the last time Butler was making 7M per

[coachmac87]

No, the Spurs still sign Butler. It would mean not signing LMA. 1mil salary counting towards the books as opposed to 7mil. Obviously you are infatuated with Martin, but seriously dude, it's not like this guy was extremely high on the Market. Do you know that Martin has only made the playoffs TWICE. Why, because chunkers like him usually shot their team out of a victory as oppose to win games.

You totally missed what I said.

[Chinook]

No but Butlers was...I can't recall the last time Butler was making 7M per

Got 'em, Coach.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

You totally missed what I said.

No I am not, you said the Spurs would sign Martin over Butler if he was available this past offseason. I say NO. Because he is so GREAT like you are making him out to be, there is no way he signs with the Spurs for the Vet min.

[Mel_13]

No but Butlers was...I can't recall the last time Butler was making 7M per

:lol

So past earnings predict present value? Again, by that logic, Kobe Bryant would be the best player in the NBA. You're already having a very hard time making your case, citing past earnings doesn't help you at all.

[coachmac87]

No, the Spurs still sign Butler. It would mean not signing LMA. 1mil salary counting towards the books as opposed to 7mil. Obviously you are infatuated with Martin, but seriously dude, it's not like this guy was extremely high on the Market. Do you know that Martin has only made the playoffs TWICE. Why, because chunkers like him usually shot their team out of a victory as oppose to win games.


I clearly said if they're both available for the minimum...Spurs would choose Martin. Just like every team in the NBA would

[coachmac87]

:lol

So past earnings predict present value? Again, by that logic, Kobe Bryant would be the best player in the NBA. You're already having a very hard time making your case, citing past earnings doesn't help you at all.


No. I'm talking current earnings..as in Butler is a minimum player. Martin would get more than the minimum if he was FA. Which would mean Martin is the better player..

Next..

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I clearly said if they're both available for the minimum...Spurs would choose Martin. Just like every team in the NBA would

Maybe so, but RIGHT NOW, the Spurs would sign Butler over Martin based on this year's results. Everyone isn't living in the past like you are.

[Mel_13]

No. I'm talking current earnings..as in Butler is a minimum player. Martin would get more than the minimum if he was FA. Which would mean Martin is the better player..

Next..

:lol

[Chinook]

:lol

Guess David Lee is a better player than West.

[coachmac87]

Seriously. It's not that complicated guys..

[Mel_13]

Seriously. It's not that complicated guys..

For nearly everyone here, it's not complicated at all.

[coachmac87]

Guess David Lee is a better player than West.

Oh like that's a fair comparison...

[BatManu20]

Random and off-topic, but Stephen A. Smith is reporting that Kyrie Irving is "not happy" in Cleveland

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Seriously. It's not that complicated guys..

Cut Bonner for Martin, if he does get bought out and Spurs do indeed have interest in signing him. Bonner can then take his appointed place in the Spurs front office. Simple as that.

[TheDoctor]

Random and off-topic, but Stephen A. Smith is reporting that Kyrie Irving is "not happy" in Cleveland

Kyrie to Spurs confirmed :wow

[coachmac87]

For nearly everyone here, it's not complicated at all.

Does Martin get more than Vets minimum next year as a FA? Yes

Is Butler out of the league after this season? Yes.

Next

[BillMc]

Kyrie to Spurs confirmed :wow
:lol

Do it RC!

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Random and off-topic, but Stephen A. Smith is reporting that Kyrie Irving is "not happy" in Cleveland

Who would be. Cleveland is like one of the most depressing big cities in America.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

[coachmac87]

Cut Bonner for Martin, if he does get bought out and Spurs do indeed have interest in signing him. Bonner can then take his appointed place in the Spurs front office. Simple as that.

That's the obvious choice. But I feel Spurs value somebody who's been with them a decade for somebody who's been here 6 months. The injury is an easy cop out for the Spurs but we will see

[timtonymanu]

Random and off-topic, but Stephen A. Smith is reporting that Kyrie Irving is "not happy" in Cleveland

:lol Cavs
:lol anyone that compared them to the Heatles

[Mel_13]

Does Martin get more than Vets minimum next year as a FA? Yes

Is Butler out of the league after this season? Yes.

Next

:lol

Melting down.

[Chinook]

Maybe so, but RIGHT NOW, the Spurs would sign Butler over Martin based on this year's results. Everyone isn't living in the past like you are.

You are trying to make Butler out to be an above-average perimeter defender, which he's never been. So there's probably room for compromise.

[benefactor]

:lol...oh you greys.

Never change.

[Chinook]

Oh like that's a fair comparison...

I mean, one got a min deal, the other got $18 Million this season.

[Hoops Czar]

Butler is only getting playing time because Simmons has been pretty bad and now, all of a sudden, he's the 2nd best man-to-man defender on the team. :lol Great, let's see if he can bump up his 2-3 minutes of medium leverage playing time per game to about 25 minutes and let's see how he does chasing Curry around the perimeter. Green can guard Shaun Livingston or Brandon Rush off the bench.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

:lol

Do it RC!
Trade deadline was 2 weeks ago.

[SpursforSix]

Trade deadline was 2 weeks ago.

we're talking about hypothetically for next year faggot

[BillMc]

Trade deadline was 2 weeks ago.

You thought I was serious?

[BatManu20]

The Raptors just waived Anthony Bennett. 1st overall pick just 3 years ago...

[timtonymanu]

:lol...oh you greys.

Never change.

[Chinook]

The Raptors just waived Anthony Bennett. 1st overall pick just 3 years ago...

CUT ANDERSON! /UTE2016

[coachmac87]

I mean, one got a min deal, the other got $18 Million this season.

By choice. And Lee didn't sign his deal this offseason.

Butler is a minimum player. Period.

Kevin Martin is more than a minimum player. Period

Y'all really tried to use West as a comparison???

[Chinook]

By choice. And Lee didn't sign his deal this offseason.

Butler is a minimum player. Period.

Kevin Martin is more than a minimum player. Period

Y'all really tried to use West as a comparison???

I mean, Lee did sign his Room Exception deal just a few days ago. Dallas literally played him $2 Million-plus for the remainder of the season.

[Mel_13]

By choice. And Lee didn't sign his deal this offseason.

Butler is a minimum player. Period.

Kevin Martin is more than a minimum player. Period

Y'all really tried to use West as a comparison???

You're the one that brought contract size into the discussion to try to prop up a failing case. Now you'll just have to live with the absurd conclusions that can be drawn from your flawed logic.

[coachmac87]

I mean, Lee did sign his Room Exception deal just a few days ago. Dallas literally played him $2 Million-plus for the remainder of the season.

But you're comparing him to West. Who did a very rare thing..that's a terrible comparison

[coachmac87]

You're the one that brought contract size into the discussion to try to prop up a failing case. Now you'll just have to live with the absurd conclusions that can be drawn from your flawed logic.

I brought up contract to show that Butler is a minimum player. Contract signed this summer. Martin isn't a minimum guy.

Next.

[coachmac87]

Y'all are the ones trying to use lame comparison instead of just admitting Kevin Martin is better than Rasual Butler...

But hey..y'all must know more then GMs cause your name is "bold" on Spurstalk

[Old School 44]

So did Kevin Martin get waived/bought out? Isn't today the deadline for him to be playoff eligible for any team that signs him?

[Mel_13]

I brought up contract to show that Butler is a minimum player. Contract signed this summer. Martin isn't a minimum guy.

Next.

This is what you said:


Just stop. I watch more basketball than you think and it's not just Spurs basketball.

You're overrating Butler. I'm not saying anything about Martin other than he's better player then Butler is. Contract says so...

Think of it this way.. Start of the season Butler and Martin are available for league minimum. Who do Spurs sign? Martin...just like EVERY team in the NBA would

Next

[monkeypunk]

So did Kevin Martin get waived/bought out? Isn't today the deadline for him to be playoff eligible for any team that signs him?

Midnight tonight, I think.

[Chinook]

But hey..y'all must know more then GMs cause your name is "bold" on Spurstalk

Look, man. We can't all be coaches like you.

[I. Hustle]

Y'all are the ones trying to use lame comparison instead of just admitting Kevin Martin is better than Rasual Butler...

But hey..y'all must know more then GMs cause your name is "bold" on Spurstalk

Now you're getting it, kiddo.

[timtonymanu]

So did Kevin Martin get waived/bought out? Isn't today the deadline for him to be playoff eligible for any team that signs him?

Tomorrow

[coachmac87]

I
This is what you said:



Next

It does. It says Butler is a minimum player..

Is that hard to understand?

You assumed I meant something else..

[timtonymanu]

Y'all are the ones trying to use lame comparison instead of just admitting Kevin Martin is better than Rasual Butler...

But hey..y'all must know more then GMs cause your name is "bold" on Spurstalk

You're reaching Jimmertacular levels of fail right now. Just admit your defeat, son, and move on.

[coachmac87]

Look, man. We can't all be coaches like you.

Obviously not. But I'd expect for y'all to at least make simple player evaluations..

[coachmac87]

You're reaching Jimmertacular levels of fail right now. Just admit your defeat, son, and move on.

Defeat on what?

[Mel_13]

I

It does. It says Butler is a minimum player..

Is that hard to understand?

You assumed I meant something else..

The words you used said you meant something else.

Even if we accept your new explanation, it still doesn't help your case.

We all know that Butler is a minimum player. That fact says absolutely nothing about his current value to the Spurs, or about his relative value to the Spurs compared to Martin potential value to the Spurs on Feb 29, 2016.

Next.

[coachmac87]

The words you used said you meant something else.

Even if we accept your new explanation, it still doesn't help your case.

We all know that Butler is a minimum player. That fact says absolutely nothing about his current value to the Spurs, or about his relative value to the Spurs compared to Martin potential value to the Spurs on Feb 29, 2016.

Next.


But what if Spurs cut Butler for Martin?

[Mel_13]

But what if Spurs cut Butler for Martin?

I've already expressed my opinion on that subject.

Next.

[Old School 44]

Midnight tonight, I think.


Tomorrow

Thanks...and my understanding is they don't necessarily have to sign with anybody by this deadline. They just need to be bought out/waived by this time to be playoff eligible for this year.

[coachmac87]

I've already expressed my opinion on that subject.

Next.

Oh you just couldn't admit that I was right?? lol

No hard feelings bro

[Mnky]

Defeat on what?

You can't argue with a fool. Even if you're 110% right, they wouldn't be able to comprehend it. People who declare themselves victor or use dismissal antics arnt here for discussion. Unless you want to see who can declare themselves the winner the "most" I'd suggest you move on... :lol
BTW, that's like 98% of spurstalk. The Junk DNA of the forum.

[Mel_13]

Thanks...and my understanding is they don't necessarily have to sign with anybody by this deadline. They just need to be bought out/waived by this time to be playoff eligible for this year.

Waivers must be requested by tomorrow's deadline. Clearing waivers, agreeing to buyout terms, and signing with a new team can all happen at a later date.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Oh you just couldn't admit that I was right?? lol

No hard feelings bro

You're right b/c The contract says so!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mel_13]

Oh you just couldn't admit that I was right?? lol

No hard feelings bro

:lol

The meltdown continues.

[coachmac87]

I'm not melting down. Lol I haven't even created a thread that I'm suspending myself from ST.

[coachmac87]

You can't argue with a fool. Even if you're 110% right, they wouldn't be ab
le to comprehend it. People who declare themselves victor or use dismissal antics arnt here for discussion. Unless you want to see who can declare themselves the winner the "most" I'd suggest you move on... :lol
BTW, that's like 98% of spurstalk. The Junk DNA of the forum.


I know. I've been posting since 06'...

I don't live here like most do.

[Mel_13]

That would be an epic meltdown. Yours is the garden variety.

[coachmac87]

That would be an epic meltdown. Yours is the garden variety.

Fair enough. I guess we will have to wait and see...

[Splits]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2562821/asiktrain_medium.gif

[ceperez]

Has he signed yet?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcSsUegUYAArrPX.jpg

[Brazil]

Because that's pretty much what you're saying. Martin is a surprisingly limited spot-up shooter. Him playing on the Spurs isn't going to make him a better one, just like it didn't for Jimmer. Like Jimmer, Martin is a guy who shoots better when he's not being assisted, because he's better at making space for himself than he is at using the space an offense gives him.

no that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying his usage rate will drop, he will have less touches assisted or not, naturally your shooting % is usually better because your shot selection is better (see Parker Tony for instance). I'm also saying his mid range jumpers inefficiency at .38 is irrelevant... You said he will play same role as Beli and I'm fine with that, Beli was shooting in average two mid range per game so yeah getting .38 out of them or .45 won't change much the outcome of a game. Then I'd be curious to see the numbers showing he is shooting better when not assisted, I believe if you make that call, you must have something to back it up.


West is shooting better because he's getting more touches around the rim. He's also able to pass to other guys this year instead of doing it all himself. However, West is an elite mid-range shooter, and that's been clear his whole career. He's also been a HoVG player who was just getting too old for this shit. Martin is like an average three-point shooter (his 37 percent is below the Spurs' 40 percent) who is only really a decent scorer when he has the ball in his hands. The best you can hope for is his OKC form to come back. The fact that he is having a bad season with a much better Wolves team doesn't bode well for that, though.

Or like West he is too old for 20 mpg and 9 FGAs per game. I just don't see how this logic would work for West but not for Mart. Parker is shooting better this year than previous years and he is not getting more lay ups than before, his role is just different with less load to carry and less minutes resulting in a better shot selection, less fatigue then better efficiency. Again I don't see why this could not apply for a guy like KMart.


I feel like you're missing the whole picture of Martin trying to focus on three-pointers. It's the same shit people were doing with Jimmer. Martin isn't that great of a spot-up guy because of his awkward release. It almost completely pushes him out of the corner (only 15 percent of his shots from there this year, which would put him behind only Manu and Diaw for guys who spot up from that range). Combine that with his inability to play well from the right side, and you get a guy who doesn't help you out like you think he does.

Not sure why bringing jimmer into that, different player, different role, different age, different everything actually. I'm fine with you saying dude sucks and he is not a good fit but bringing his FG% of his season with Minny is irrelevant.




There's a difference between saying, "Martin is not a better player than Joseph", and "Martin can't help the Spurs." Martin isn't a good player, and his stats do show that. But he could turn it around. The only reason to believe he can though is because you believe the Spurs system will make him better than he actually is.

No I believe the way Spurs will use him as low usage rate coming off the bench for 10/15 mpg ala Beli shooting 3s he could be useful for a vet min price. I also say who cares about his mid range JS for 2 FGAs ? I also say .37 is not a bad % from 3 even though it is inferior to team's average that has anyway a low % of 3s FGAs compared to previous seasons. Are you implying with the Spurs he could not average 2-3 FGAs at .37 and he will become TOV prone or something ? You take him because its cheap, because he can shoot 3s and you are lacking 3s and he can bring the ball to half court without losing it.

[Brazil]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2562821/asiktrain_medium.gif

:lol this cracks me up every time

[TheDoctor]

Has he signed yet?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcSsUegUYAArrPX.jpg

Austin Daye? Spurs waived him last season.

[Darius Bieber]

Got until 12 AM EST for a buy out to occur.

[dabom]

no that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying his usage rate will drop, he will have less touches assisted or not, naturally your shooting % is usually better because your shot selection is better (see Parker Tony for instance). I'm also saying his mid range jumpers inefficiency at .38 is irrelevant... You said he will play same role as Beli and I'm fine with that, Beli was shooting in average two mid range per game so yeah getting .38 out of them or .45 won't change much the outcome of a game. Then I'd be curious to see the numbers showing he is shooting better when not assisted, I believe if you make that call, you must have something to back it up.



Or like West he is too old for 20 mpg and 9 FGAs per game. I just don't see how this logic would work for West but not for Mart. Parker is shooting better this year than previous years and he is not getting more lay ups than before, his role is just different with less load to carry and less minutes resulting in a better shot selection, less fatigue then better efficiency. Again I don't see why this could not apply for a guy like KMart.



Not sure why bringing jimmer into that, different player, different role, different age, different everything actually. I'm fine with you saying dude sucks and he is not a good fit but bringing his FG% of his season with Minny is irrelevant.





No I believe the way Spurs will use him as low usage rate coming off the bench for 10/15 mpg ala Beli shooting 3s he could be useful for a vet min price. I also say who cares about his mid range JS for 2 FGAs ? I also say .37 is not a bad % from 3 even though it is inferior to team's average that has anyway a low % of 3s FGAs compared to previous seasons. Are you implying with the Spurs he could not average 2-3 FGAs at .37 and he will become TOV prone or something ? You take him because its cheap, because he can shoot 3s and you are lacking 3s and he can bring the ball to half court without losing it.

https://m.popkey.co/7e8e08/rbdWv.gif

[Chinook]

Not sure why bringing jimmer into that, different player, different role, different age, different everything actually. I'm fine with you saying dude sucks and he is not a good fit but bringing his FG% of his season with Minny is irrelevant.

Honestly, this is the entire hangup. If you don't understand the specifics of Martin's game, then you don't really have an argument either way. You're only arguing generalities like that Martin will be better if he takes fewer shots or has someone give him good looks. And that's pretty much assuming the system would make him a good player. You can keep denying it and then just restating it in different words, but it's true.

Martin has mechanical issues that limit his effectiveness on offense. When he has the ball in his hands, he's able to compensate by getting his own shots, getting to the foul line, etc. But spotting up, he has trouble because there are certain spots on the floor where he literally can't get off his shot consistently. One of those spots is the corner, and it's miserable for a Spurs' player to not be able to slide to that corner three. That is how he's like Jimmer. Difference between them as shooters is that Martin's release is faster but also off to the side. Both are low in terms of where they hold the ball. So Jimmer has a crazy-low percentage of assisted threes. Martin is not nearly as bad, but he also has a whole side of the floor where he's a below-average shooter.

When you say, "Martin will be better when he can focus on spotting up," it's kinda like saying, "Danny will be better when he can focus on driving." It's not using him to his strengths. He's only a good spot-up guy from the left wing (and right wing every other year for some reason). So he'd be the guy entering the ball into the post. But his release is still slow, so rather than having Green or Mills use their gravity to discourage help on the post-up, you have Martin's much lower gravity. And because of that release, he'll find himself run off three-point line, which is where his two-point percentage and below average A:TO come in.

This just like Jimmer. People just assumed that having a high percentage meant he was a good spot-up guy. And he would fit the Spurs because, hell, the Spurs have spot-up guys, right? It's not that simple. It wouldn't surprise me at all if one of Martin's issues this season is that the guys around him are better and he's struggling as a lower option.

[Brazil]

https://m.popkey.co/7e8e08/rbdWv.gif

:cry thanks mate... appreciated

[dabom]

:cry thanks mate... appreciated

:cry
































:tu

[dabom]

chinook going in a tangent per par. :lmao

[BatManu20]

Damn 16 pages and counting. Solid :tu

[Brazil]

Honestly, this is the entire hangup. If you don't understand the specifics of Martin's game, then you don't really have an argument either way. You're only arguing generalities like that Martin will be better if he takes fewer shots or has someone give him good looks. And that's pretty much assuming the system would make him a good player. You can keep denying it and then just restating it in different words, but it's true.

Martin has mechanical issues that limit his effectiveness on offense. When he has the ball in his hands, he's able to compensate by getting his own shots, getting to the foul line, etc. But spotting up, he has trouble because there are certain spots on the floor where he literally can't get off his shot consistently. One of those spots is the corner, and it's miserable for a Spurs' player to not be able to slide to that corner three. That is how he's like Jimmer. Difference between them as shooters is that Martin's release is faster but also off to the side. Both are low in terms of where they hold the ball. So Jimmer has a crazy-low percentage of assisted threes. Martin is not nearly as bad, but he also has a whole side of the floor where he's a below-average shooter.

When you say, "Martin will be better when he can focus on spotting up," it's kinda like saying, "Danny will be better when he can focus on driving." It's not using him to his strengths. He's only a good spot-up guy from the left wing (and right wing every other year for some reason). So he'd be the guy entering the ball into the post. But his release is still slow, so rather than having Green or Mills use their gravity to discourage help on the post-up, you have Martin's much lower gravity. And because of that release, he'll find himself run off three-point line, which is where his two-point percentage and below average A:TO come in.

This just like Jimmer. People just assumed that having a high percentage meant he was a good spot-up guy. And he would fit the Spurs because, hell, the Spurs have spot-up guys, right? It's not that simple.

Untill recently you were only arguing KMart sucks look at his stats in Minny, that's the whole start of this conversation, you don't evaluate a fit of a player based on past stats if you hire him to play a whole different role in your team. I'm still waiting where I can see that he is better when not assisted than when assisted btw.

For the rest, I understood the first time, you don't like him neither the idea to sign him for a vet deal. I, for one, think he cannot be worst than Matty and for min vet you take him for a limited role even if he does not improve at all his shot selection which would be :rolleyes. Spurs could surely use a wing capable to hit some 3s rather than a PF capable to only hit some sandwich in his sofa.

[Dex]

Damn 16 pages and counting. Solid :tu

This is gonna become the new Jimmer Thread.

[dabom]

This is gonna become the new Jimmer Thread.

Gasol thread was like 20 pages a day. :lol

[Chinook]

Untill recently you were only arguing KMart sucks look at his stats in Minny, .

No, that's the only part you took issue with. You argued that those stats were not good enough to determine his success because he could be better in another role. I then pointed out that that wasn't the point of me bringing up his stats. I was comparing him to other players to say that he has been bad this season (first in relation to Joseph then in relation to Butler). I didn't project those stats to his time with the Spurs. But for the past three posts, I have pointed out that you thinking he'd be better in a spot-up role is against his nature. You brought up West, and I argued why that didn't matter. I brought up Jimmer, and you didn't understand/acknowledge what he had to do with the discussion with Martin and his expanded role.

In short, the stats show that Martin's been bad this year. A whole host of issues (his whole career, as I said early on in our discourse) is why he's not a great fit.


For the rest, I understood the first time, you don't like him neither the idea to sign him for a vet deal.

Then you clearly didn't understand. I have never spoken out against him getting signed. I did speak out against the idea that he would or should be handed a rotation spot. That has been a stance I have repeated over and over in this thread, along with the fact that Butler is better than Martin. If you want to actually know, read the thread. It's not THAT long.

[Beaverfuzz]

Fuck you
Kevin Martin
That is all

[Chinook]

People always assume a Spurs bump, as if the system magically makes them better players. I imagine if the Spurs do want to sign Martin and give him minutes, they would give him the Beli touches. The issue is that he isn't a great spot-up guy unless he's on the left wing, and that limits his usefulness to the team (Spurs players in general already crowd the left side of the floor too much). Not to mention that his lower release point makes him less effective coming off screens (especially on the right side of the floor).

West was just in a bad position last year where he had to do it all while also coming back from an injury. In fact, in Indy in general West had to do too much, take too many shots. In SA, he's bee more selective about the long-twos he shoots. And he's getting more high-lows being on the court with Duncan and Diaw so much. He's just a much better offensive fit than Martin.



I totally think the two-pointers and free throws matter. As I said, he'll be coming in the Beli role. There were better spot-up guys to get, of they could just play Butler. They want someone who isn't just going to sit in the (left) corner and not put pressure on the defense. On paper, Martin can do a lot more with the ball than Green can. But in practice, his game is a little antiquated.



He has a career full of reasons to dismiss his signing. But his stats from this season show why he's not as good as people remember him being. I'm not against bringing him in (even proposed trading for him in a salary dump this off-season if the Spurs lost Manu and Tim. But he's not a rotation player right now.



He can physically hold onto a basketball, if that's what you mean. If you're asking him to be a worse version of Butler, I mean, you've already got Butler.

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

[Beaverfuzz]

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

Martin blows chunks. Fuck this guy.

[sasaint]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2562821/asiktrain_medium.gif

:lmao So, did Mozgov pick up the spare?!?!

[ceperez]

:lmao So, did Mozgov pick up the spare?!?!

Mosgov? That's Asik!

[sasaint]

Mosgov? That's Asik!

So it is! Whoever... Hilarious!

[coachmac87]

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

No problem with saying Martin sucks...but saying Butler is the better player??:lmao

[TheDoctor]

This is why SpursTalk is the best Spurs forum/blog/community/whatever :king

[spurtech09]

By the comments in this thread Martin isn't signing with the Spurs?

[TheDoctor]

By the comments in this thread Martin isn't signing with the Spurs?

http://media.fyre.co/vbxNjraOTv22CYkQx6VX_This%20team%20is%20so%20dumb. gif

[spurtech09]

http://media.fyre.co/vbxNjraOTv22CYkQx6VX_This%20team%20is%20so%20dumb. gifHave nothing else better to do I guess?

[TD 21]

I see a lot of predictable over analysis, from the usual suspects, who automatically don't want any player in their 30's, that used to be a prominent name.

As usual, they're missing the point. It's not about wanting Martin; it's about this team's needs and him being the best possible solution.

Ginobili is going to be out a while longer, which will give them time to evaluate Martin (if/when he get's bought out and signed) and Anderson in the rotation simultaneously. No decision has to be made yet. It's something that can work itself out in time.

[spurtech09]

I see a lot of predictable over analysis, from the usual suspects, who automatically don't want any player in their 30's, that used to be a prominent name.

As usual, they're missing the point. It's not about wanting Martin; it's about this team's needs and him being the best possible solution.

Ginobili is going to be out a while longer, which will give them time to evaluate Martin (if/when he get's bought out and signed) and Anderson in the rotation simultaneously. No decision has to be made yet. It's something that can work itself out in time.+1

[cd98]

Tick tock...Sounds like Wolves want Kevin Martin to leave big bucks on the table. I wonder if a buyout will happen by tomorrow.

[Robz4000]

If Martin doesn't get a buyout I wouldn't be opposed to the Spurs going after Beno tbh.