Start Bertans right now

[DAF86]

What the heck, it worked with DJ.

He's the other promising guy we have to save our near future. Besides that it makes sense to start him for the following reasons:

-Shooting. The current starting lineup (Murray, Green, Anderson, Aldridge, Gasol) only has one high volume three point shooter: Danny. Switching Bertans for Gasol would bring more balance to the SL on that regard.

-A more rational rotation. The only two true bigmam worth a shit are Gasol and Aldridge. Splitting them up will help keep the rotations reasonable and avoid playing Lauvergne.

-Offense in general. That's were we are most hurting and metrics wise Bertans is one of our best offensive players. Having him play more should help us there.

-Anderson and Dejounte can make up for Bertans' lack of rebounding.

-Keep shaking things up and prepare for the future.

[dabom]

:lol

[cjw]

You underrate Gasol’s defensive and rebounding impact in the SL. But it may make sense against teams that play smaller.

You can also start LMA and Gasol and still stagger minutes. Lauvergne will not play in the playoffs save for moments where they need to use fouls ...

[marinoman]

Against the rockets and warriors I think it’s a good move, against most other teams i wouldnt

[duncan2k5]

Completely agree and have been saying this since before the season started... Seeing that I've been right about everything I've said so far this year, even though the criticism, I would hope we make this move

[dabom]

Completely agree and have been saying this since before the season started... Seeing that I've been right about everything I've said so far this year, even though the criticism, I would hope we make this move

:lol

[Em-City]

Gasol's high low game with LA seems to be one of the primary success areas for the offense at the moment. Probably shouldn't be overlooked

[Arcadian]

This is probably necessary in today's NBA where some teams start 4 wing players and a stretch big...and it solves the problem of having only 2 centers on the roster. Pau should play well in a second unit with Mills and Manu.

[duncan2k5]

Gasol's high low game with LA seems to be one of the primary success areas for the offense at the moment. Probably shouldn't be overlooked

Not enough... Two successful high low passes a game shouldn't determine whether one needs to start or not... We should play Gasol till he is 50 because he can high low pass? Bertans has the athleticism and footspeed to guard on switches (which pop loves to do, and the elite teams like Houston and Golden State intentionally do because they know they can exploit Gasol)

[duncan2k5]

Not to mention it opens up the floor for DJ to wreak havoc on drives

[DAF86]

And let's not forget Bertans isn't too shabby of a passer either.

[dabom]

I like the concept OP.

[dabom]

Only would work with DM on the lineup.

[Stabula]

Sadly the Spurs offense is at its best with both Gasol and Aldridge on the floor at the same time.

[spurraider21]

he's a good fit alongside murray fwiw

[SAGirl]

It has the potential to save Aldridge some minutes of wear and tear. He is playing really long minutes most games anyways and asked to post up and body up both on offense and defense (rebounding and blocking bigs out). Even staggering him with Gasol isn’t saving or sparing his body some and Gasol himself has been playing through some wrist pain.

I thought b4 the season started that there was a chance Rudy would be starting too, b4 it became known injuries would rule the day.

One side effect of the injuries is that this team is not the initial team Pop planned to play. I think Davis also fits in a slightly faster style better than Gasol and with the Spurs missing some scorers right now in Rudy and Kawhi who can easily score in half court sets they are pushing the pace more which suits Dejounte.

Davis physically would have to hold up though.

[SAGirl]

he's a good fit alongside murray fwiw
Anderson too. He gets shots assisted from him almost every game they play together.

[SAGirl]

Also his shooting would need to become more regular. He’s playing every game now and is more prone to 1-7 than 6-7 shooting nights from 3. Gasol is a more versatile scorer, a better passer rebounder and rim protector... but the faster pace is better for everyone else. They hadn’t scored this much in a while and that was with Davis and Danny both having cold shooting nights.

[jermaine]

Bertans is underrated on here!!! He can pass, defend, rebound pretty damn well. He sure as fuck can move his feet 10 times better that Pau!

[r0drig0lac]

good to see that people are seeing the light, the gravity of Bertans is a factor that can not be despised in a team so inept offensively

[jermaine]

I've been seeing it myself. Like DM, he needs reps. I just hope when Rudy comes back, Bertans don't get shelved. No knock on Gay, but I think Davis is a better fit.

[boutons_deux]

Gasol's high low game with LA seems to be one of the primary success areas for the offense at the moment. Probably shouldn't be overlooked

Pau throws nearly as many bad passes as good

[tholdren]

Not to mention it opens up the floor for DJ to wreak havoc on ball movement and turn it over more than he assists

[duncan2k5]

Sadly the Spurs offense is at its best with both Gasol and Aldridge on the floor at the same time.

we only know that because thats how it usually is...we havent tried the alternative long enough

[cd98]

People are forgetting that Cavs are horrible at defense. Everyone ‘s stats were inflated.

[Seventyniner]

Murray is close enough to Parker for the move to make sense. Bertans is nowhere near Gasol in terms of impacting the game.

[jermaine]

Dafuq... You're talking about Pau from his Laker Yrs right!?! I know you're not speaking of the Pau who don't even try once he's beat.. just stands there like WTF.

[Play Boban]

Our whole starting lineup is going to consist of D-League All-Stars besides LA soon, isn’t it? Maybe we should bring Jimmer over from China and have him start, too?

[Phenomanul]

Dafuq... You're talking about Pau from his Laker Yrs right!?! I know you're not speaking of the Pau who don't even try once he's beat.. just stands there like WTF.

And yet he LEADS the team in assists.

That's nothing to scoff at.

I think they should both get minutes. Matchups and projected pace would determine who would start.

[Mr. Body]

Who needs rebounds? Great idea.

[SpursforSix]

Our whole starting lineup is going to consist of D-League All-Stars besides LA soon, isn’t it? Maybe we should bring Jimmer over from China and have him start, too?

Can we trade Mills for him?

[BD24]

Loved the starting lineup last night. Think we should roll with it for awhile. Getting Murray and Bertans much neeeded PT. On top of that Fatheads and Murray’s great rebounding for their positions makes up for Bertans lack of rebounding for a 4. Think the group compliments each other nicely

[DAF86]

Who needs rebounds? Great idea.


-Anderson and Dejounte can make up for Bertans' lack of rebounding.

[TheGreatYacht]

No.

[pad300]

Bertans is underrated on here!!! He can pass, defend, rebound pretty damn well. He sure as fuck can move his feet 10 times better that Pau!

WTF?

[8FOR!3]

Bertans can pull up over people from 3, he was doing it to LeBron before LeBron started closing out harder.

[Ice009]

Yeah, I was wondering what Jermaine was on about when he mentioned Davis rebounds pretty darn well. LOL. I wanted to kill Davis in one of the Spurs recent loses where he could barely get 1 rebound in the game.

[jermaine]

Yeah, I was wondering what Jermaine was on about when he mentioned Davis rebounds pretty darn well. LOL. I wanted to kill Davis in one of the Spurs recent loses where he could barely get 1 rebound in the game.

I'm not saying he's the best, but I like his effort. Lol I'm starting to feel Davis an Kyle should be untouchable.. Esp with this nigga Kawhi being a lil bitch!

[spurraider21]

he's a great fit when we have both Murray and Anderson on the floor tbh

[-21-]

I have serious concerns about Bertans' defense and rebounding (also LMA plays best when paired with Gasol) but at this point I don't mind trying it out for a few games. If it doesn't work out, just plug Gasol back in.

BTW if Kawhi returns, I think it would be wise to try a Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5.

[spurraider21]

Last year Gasol didn't complain about coming off the bench when Dedmon was hot. I don't see why it would suddenly become a non-starter for him now.

The only question is if Pop would go forward with it, or if LMA would take issue with it.

The Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5 would make a ton of sense rotation wise, too. We're already pretty cluttered at the 3/4 with Kawhi/Anderson/Bertans/Gay and we're thin at center, so having Gasol off the bench makes sense

[Proxy]

Murray, DG, Kawhi, LMA, and Bertans as the SL with TP, Manu, Kyle, Gay, and Gasol off the bench sounds conceptually.

[Stabula]

Bertans should stay on the bench IMO. Gasol can also shoot the three but pairs better with Aldridge and provides more in terms of playmaking, PnR, and passing.

[bklynspursfan]

Last year Gasol didn't complain about coming off the bench when Dedmon was hot. I don't see why it would suddenly become a non-starter for him now.

The only question is if Pop would go forward with it, or if LMA would take issue with it.

The Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5 would make a ton of sense rotation wise, too. We're already pretty cluttered at the 3/4 with Kawhi/Anderson/Bertans/Gay and we're thin at center, so having Gasol off the bench makes sense

I would probably have Bertans in that starting 5 vs Anderson just because we would need the spacing, especially now that Murray is starting. Gasol does make sense off the bench though. He's been pretty good overall, but I wouldn't be surprised if Pop makes that change. He took a bit to change it last year but he eventually started Dedmon.

[Play Boban]

Can we trade Mills for him?

That would be an upgrade tbh.

[spurraider21]

I would probably have Bertans in that starting 5 vs Anderson just because we would need the spacing, especially now that Murray is starting. Gasol does make sense off the bench though. He's been pretty good overall, but I wouldn't be surprised if Pop makes that change. He took a bit to change it last year but he eventually started Dedmon.
i dont think spacing is really that big an issue since LMA prefers to camp outside anyway, so its not like the paint is going to be cluttered. Aldridge pulling opposing bigs out also gives murray the ability to cut off-ball

[BD24]

I have serious concerns about Bertans' defense and rebounding (also LMA plays best when paired with Gasol) but at this point I don't mind trying it out for a few games. If it doesn't work out, just plug Gasol back in.

BTW if Kawhi returns, I think it would be wise to try a Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5.
Bertans defense isn't terrible. Its not great, but he has pretty good lateral movement. You don't have as many traditional 4s these days so him getting pushed around by some big bruiser downlow isnt as much of a concern.

I really like that lineup you propose when Kawhi returns.

[Dex]

Last year Gasol didn't complain about coming off the bench when Dedmon was hot. I don't see why it would suddenly become a non-starter for him now.

The only question is if Pop would go forward with it, or if LMA would take issue with it.

The Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5 would make a ton of sense rotation wise, too. We're already pretty cluttered at the 3/4 with Kawhi/Anderson/Bertans/Gay and we're thin at center, so having Gasol off the bench makes sense

This is my concern. We all know LMA doesn't like to play center. Being paired with Pau takes some of that pressure off of him. Also, he and Pau have been working well together in the high-low situations, and those easy buckets keep him going.

I don't think moving Pau to the bench is the answer...I think finding another big that is not Joffrey fucking Lauvergne makes more sense.

[bklynspursfan]

i dont think spacing is really that big an issue since LMA prefers to camp outside anyway, so its not like the paint is going to be cluttered. Aldridge pulling opposing bigs out also gives murray the ability to cut off-ball

Kawhi and LMA sometimes operate in the post, I just think the more spacing, the better chance of getting some ball movement going again. Anderson/Murray out there isn't ideal, as they both tend to either not shoot, or hesitate. Having as much shooting firepower as possible around Kawhi/LMA would open things up much more. Plus I think Anderson's defense would be needed much more with that 2nd unit.

[SAGirl]

I have serious concerns about Bertans' defense and rebounding (also LMA plays best when paired with Gasol) but at this point I don't mind trying it out for a few games. If it doesn't work out, just plug Gasol back in.

BTW if Kawhi returns, I think it would be wise to try a Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge starting 5.
my concerns with Bertans are mostly whether his body can really handle the physicality. He's a strong dude mentally and he competes... but he's really light and gets pushed out of plays on defense often... he really cannot handle contact that much which hurts him rebounding as well.

Watch this play right here... nice play from the steal by Kyle to the fast break Davis runs ending on a Dejounte dunk.. however, watch at the end how the smallest contact with Lebron sends Davis flying 5 feet. He's having his knee wrapped in the bench and frankly I am not sure how much of the physicality his body can handle. He is really light.

Here is the play:
955999844631539712

I think Pop is getting a lot more comfortable playing him though and he's also getting his opportunity to show up. Next game against Memphis pop is resting Lamarcus. Davis will have his opportunities to make his case.

956263313435963392

[Proxy]

This is my concern. We all know LMA doesn't like to play center. Being paired with Pau takes some of that pressure off of him. Also, he and Pau have been working well together in the high-low situations, and those easy buckets keep him going.

I don't think moving Pau to the bench is the answer...I think finding another big that is not Joffrey fucking Lauvergne makes more sense.

why not plug Bertans in at the 5 like Bonner/Bobo used to with Timmy at the 4

space it out for Murray and Kawhi to slash, 3 long range threats to throw it out to and get the ball moving. 3 old European tosbs off the bench together

[spurraider21]

Kawhi and LMA sometimes operate in the post, I just think the more spacing, the better chance of getting some ball movement going again. Anderson/Murray out there isn't ideal, as they both tend to either not shoot, or hesitate. Having as much shooting firepower as possible around Kawhi/LMA would open things up much more. Plus I think Anderson's defense would be needed much more with that 2nd unit.
that's a fair point... second unit with parker/manu/gasol would probably need help

[Dex]

why not plug Bertans in at the 5 like Bonner/Bobo used to with Timmy at the 4

space it out for Murray and Kawhi to slash, 3 long range threats to throw it out to and get the ball moving. 3 old European tosbs off the bench together

Not sure Bertans can hang with other starting centers. He gets pushed around inside and is a horrible rebounder for his size.

Bobo at least had the base to root guys out of the paint, and even he wasn't great on the boards.

Bonner should have never been a starting center.

[spurraider21]

my concerns with Bertans are mostly whether his body can really handle the physicality. He's a strong dude mentally and he competes... but he's really light and gets pushed out of plays on defense often... he really cannot handle contact that much which hurts him rebounding as well.

Watch this play right here... nice play from the steal by Kyle to the fast break Davis runs ending on a Dejounte dunk.. however, watch at the end how the smallest contact with Lebron sends Davis flying 5 feet. He's having his knee wrapped in the bench and frankly I am not sure how much of the physicality his body can handle. He is really light.

Here is the play:
955999844631539712

:lol his foot clearly gets tangled, though. keep a close eye on the replay. he got tripped, he didnt get sent flying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtAuT3xalYQ

[Dex]

Also worth noting that Gasol is actually shooting the three better (41.4%) than Bertans (38.4%) right now, albeit on about 1 less attempt per game. He also brings a lot more to the table in other areas (passing, rebounding, etc.)

[SAGirl]

:lol his foot clearly gets tangled, though. keep a close eye on the replay. he got tripped, he didnt get sent flying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtAuT3xalYQ
Good catch.. I hadn't seen the replay, but that was just a recent and glaring example... have seen him get pushed out of place enough to know he is very light and that is what affects his rebounding and rim defense. He is getting tested though, so we shall see.

[Seventyniner]

Also worth noting that Gasol is actually shooting the three better (41.4%) than Bertans (38.4%) right now, albeit on about 1 less attempt per game. He also brings a lot more to the table in other areas (passing, rebounding, etc.)

This. For being a shooting specialist, Bertans is not very good. Though he does take a good number of threes several feet behind the line, including (what seems like) quite a few bailout shots when the shot clock is running down.

Does NBA.com have shot data by distance broken down into just-behind-the-line threes and those further back?

[SAGirl]

This is my concern. We all know LMA doesn't like to play center. Being paired with Pau takes some of that pressure off of him. Also, he and Pau have been working well together in the high-low situations, and those easy buckets keep him going.

I don't think moving Pau to the bench is the answer...I think finding another big that is not Joffrey fucking Lauvergne makes more sense.

I have been in favor of that too and mentioned it in the trade deadline thread. They really should clear up the guard clutter they have as well.

[bklynspursfan]

that's a fair point... second unit with parker/manu/gasol would probably need help

Yea, especially Pau haha. Our 2nd units defense hasn't been great anyway the last few years, so any help there is a plus

[objective]

I think it's worth a try.

His defense has really improved leaps and bounds. He keeps in front of drivers and stays vertical, and people just miss against him the last month or so.

He's almost becoming an anti-Bonner. Opponents see him and go right at him probably moreso than they would another player, except they're missing against Bertans.

[pad300]

:lol his foot clearly gets tangled, though. keep a close eye on the replay. he got tripped, he didnt get sent flying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtAuT3xalYQ

You know what is really disappointing about this clip - nobody went to help Bertans up.

You were right there Murray, he's your teammate and you're supposed to be leading. Davis did you a favour, effectively screening Lebron out of the play for you to dunk, so go help him up...

[Proxy]

Not sure Bertans can hang with other starting centers. He gets pushed around inside and is a horrible rebounder for his size.

Bobo at least had the base to root guys out of the paint, and even he wasn't great on the boards.

Bonner should have never been a starting center.

Bertans needs to spend the summer getting a Bobo ass

[DAF86]

why not plug Bertans in at the 5 like Bonner/Bobo used to with Timmy at the 4

space it out for Murray and Kawhi to slash, 3 long range threats to throw it out to and get the ball moving. 3 old European tosbs off the bench together

Boris and Bonner never played the 5 alongside Duncan. C'mon now. :lol

[Seventyniner]

Looks like Pop reads ST.

[DAF86]

956357785398079488

This is what happens when you gain confidence through extended playing time.

[vander]

This is what happens when you gain confidence through extended playing time.

on the other hand he's down below 38% from 3 and is passing up 3's

[DAF86]

Davis showing he's not a one trick pony. Just 1/6 shooting from 3 but showing other things.

[DAF86]

on the other hand he's down below 38% from 3 and is passing up 3's

He will get some 5/7 games soon enough to get his % back to normal.

[HarlemHeat37]

Davis showing he's not a one trick pony. Just 1/6 shooting from 3 but showing other things.

This is true..it's tough to judge these role players in that regard when this team struggles to create looks with its lack of creators(even worse with Kawhi out), though..

This isn't Houston, where their role players shoot 10 wide open 3s per game:lol

[tholdren]

This is true..it's tough to judge these role players in that regard when this team struggles to create looks with its lack of creators(even worse with Kawhi out), though..

This isn't Houston, where their role players shoot 10 wide open 3s per game:lol

When has kl been a playmaker?

[HarlemHeat37]

When has kl been a playmaker?

He isn't great, but at least he draws attention from the opposing defense..the hope was that he was going to continue growing in that area as he matured, this season could have been another leap..

[SAGirl]

Davis showing he's not a one trick pony. Just 1/6 shooting from 3 but showing other things.
Yup I think they must have told him not to settle for the 3 so much tspecially if his shot is going to be contested with a guy nearby. He’s fearless taking those shots that’s what he has to be guarded closely but at the same time his shooting % was suffering. I think him being more aggressive getting to the rim is per the coaches request. It has worked out quite well. His hooting hopefully bounces back with better shot selection. I hope he doesn’t develop Danny’s yips though.

[BackHome]

To want him to start taking it to the rim he is able to score or make a easy pass to set someone to score. In the beginning I think all they told him was to focus on defense and then he got better and started to hit the threes now I think they telling him they want to see his mid range game. The good thing is he is getting consistent minutes and like Mustard he is also is getting better

[alpha_HaZE]

What the heck, it worked with DJ.

He's the other promising guy we have to save our near future. Besides that it makes sense to start him for the following reasons:

-Shooting. The current starting lineup (Murray, Green, Anderson, Aldridge, Gasol) only has one high volume three point shooter: Danny. Switching Bertans for Gasol would bring more balance to the SL on that regard.

-A more rational rotation. The only two true bigmam worth a shit are Gasol and Aldridge. Splitting them up will help keep the rotations reasonable and avoid playing Lauvergne.

-Offense in general. That's were we are most hurting and metrics wise Bertans is one of our best offensive players. Having him play more should help us there.

-Anderson and Dejounte can make up for Bertans' lack of rebounding.

-Keep shaking things up and prepare for the future.

As others, am sure, have mentioned, DJ plays better defense than the man he is replacing and is a much better rebounder. I am not sure you can say either for Dedmon. His rebounding sucks! It's actually worse than DJ's teams gets second and third opportunities with him on the court, and there are games when he goes cold from the 3 point line. And if he does that, there is no way we win. And if he doesn't, better hope the other team does not abuse us on the boards. I know he is getting better on defense, but he is not there yet and definetely not at Dejounte's level, so PLEASE do not compare the two. They are very different players!

[r0drig0lac]

This is what happens when you gain confidence through extended playing time.

he probably read ST, and saw that it was being compared to rubbish as Bonner

[DJR210]

Who needs rebounds? Great idea.

We just need Murray to average 18 boards

[DAF86]

As others, am sure, have mentioned, DJ plays better defense than the man he is replacing and is a much better rebounder. I am not sure you can say either for Dedmon. His rebounding sucks! It's actually worse than DJ's teams gets second and third opportunities with him on the court, and there are games when he goes cold from the 3 point line. And if he does that, there is no way we win. And if he doesn't, better hope the other team does not abuse us on the boards. I know he is getting better on defense, but he is not there yet and definetely not at Dejounte's level, so PLEASE do not compare the two. They are very different players!

Yeah, so? Bertans plays infinite better offense than Murray. And? :lol

It's about cohesion and hability to complement each other. Murray makes up for Bertans' lack of rebounding, Bertans makes up for Murray's lack of shooting.

[Seventyniner]

Yeah, so? Bertans plays infinite better offense than Murray. And? :lol

It's about cohesion and hability to complement each other. Murray makes up for Bertans' lack of rebounding, Bertans makes up for Murray's lack of shooting.

You can't look at that in a vacuum. Switching Murray and Bertans's placement on the defensive glass requires Bertans to get back on defense in transition much more often. He is a decent shotblocker but I don't want him being tasked with transition defense all the time.

What would make up for Bertans being a bad rebounder is playing next to a good rebounding big. Fortunately he almost always does.

What would make up for Murray being a poor shooter is being good at finishing at the rim. Otherwise you're just playing 4 on 5 too often.

[BillMc]

Davis isn't a good rebounder this is true. Still, I think its been a little over emphasized. Watch a game and you see Davis is often way out on the perimeter and has clearly been told to get back in transition as his first priority. So, its sort of natural that he won't get a lot of boards. Could he better certainly but that's not quite the complete picture. He's not a traditional big that lives in the paint and bullies his way to boards.

[SAGirl]

It's just very unlikely the team "benches" Pau... I know coming off the bench or starting doesn't matter, but the team has won a lot of games with Pau starting and he's playing well.

If Pau was not playing well (kinda like Tony who had like 10 bad games in a row and the team was losing) then that is different. I think in light of Tony's poor play lately, Pop decided wth? We might as well start Dejounte and see what we really have there.... It also was preceded by a series of games where the team in general (davis included fwiw) was shooting poorly and they clawed back into games and made the games really close on the back of really stout defense of which Dejounte was a big part. So bottom line, Dejounte showed the team had better chances to win games with him playing than with him not playing.

In Davis case is not that clear, bc Pau has been playing well. (unlike Tony who was playing really poorly and he gave his own statement to the press saying he was not 100% and also that he had hit a kind of wall.) It's not that easy to bench a vet that is playing well in favor of someone who is playing well only lately.

TL: DR --> My point is that I just don't see Pop going for this unless Pau was sucking first.

Still think Davis is making a good case for his playing time regardless, which is what matters. If team isn't doing well with Pau, Pop can always get Bertans in the game earlier. That is easier to do.

I know Chinook would bring up the point about alternating Pau and LMA and how difficult that is, but he has played that way the entire season.

[Seventyniner]

There's also the age difference. Murray still has lots of chances to improve, while Bertans is several years older.

But yeah, your point that Pau is playing much better than Tony is definitely the lion's share of the reason.

[SAGirl]

DAvis adds a layer offensively that the slowish combo of Pau and LMA don't have. He's capable of plays in transition, and has shown to be more dynamic than a spot up shooter. Think he deserves playing time for sure IMO.

If surrounded by good defensive players (notice he's done well with Murray/Anderson/Danny) he will be fine. If surrounded by bad defensive players, he's going to be in trouble... notice at times when the bench had the bad defensive combinations of Patty/Forbes or Patty/Tony and even Patty/Forbes/Manu with Davis, they gave up leads all the way back to the Portland game, and Hawks games.

It is worth noting Davis is an offensive player that needs to be surrounded by good defensive players to win games. He complements Murray and Anderson well bc these two are good defensive players but offensively challenged. Anyways, I think he's earned his playing time and we shall see what happens. Still think Pop doesn't bench Pau unless they started losing games. This might not be fully settled if Pau cannot handle some matchups coming up.

[DAF86]

What's with the obsession of Keeping Pau on the starting lineup when we know that come playoffs time against the Rockets or Warriors we are going to have to get him come off the bench?

[SAGirl]

There’s really not much more to say. Dqvis played well in the 2 games he started and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pop continue to put him in situations to see how he handles it.

The Pau subject is a subject that’s interesting on his own without any pro-Davis agenda. He’s important to the team on rim protection and rebounding (besides what he does offensively).

There are matchups that are not good for him and there’s a possibility he doesn’t play well against some teams. This year he really was able to exploit small teams like Portland and he really lit them up (teams Davis played poorly against btw)... there are many games the team would have lost had Pau not played well.

Some really challenging teams are soon to come up and I wouldn’t be surprised to see CIA POp lineups that give opportunities to Davis to get him tested. Pau is going to have his own challenge dealing with those teams.

[DenialTwist]

Pop will handicap the team in the playoffs if they have to play the Thunder or Pelicans in the first round and if they get past either of those teams it will be worse against the Rockets or Warriors. Pau Gasol is unplayable against the teams the Spurs have to worry about. Can you imagine Pau guarding Steven Adams, Cousins, KD or Draymond? That is a nightmare.

[Ice009]

Pop will handicap the team in the playoffs if they have to play the Thunder or Pelicans in the first round and if they get past either of those teams it will be worse against the Rockets or Warriors. Pau Gasol is unplayable against the teams the Spurs have to worry about. Can you imagine Pau guarding Steven Adams, Cousins, KD or Draymond? That is a nightmare.

Do you think the Spurs with a healthy Kawhi can beat the Pelicans or Thunder?

I was looking at the standings earlier today, and if the playoffs started now, the Spurs would be playing the Pelicans. I'm not sure that I'd like that match-up. The Spurs have usually had problem with them when it was Davis alone in the front court. Not sure how they'd fare with both Davis and Cousins to go against.

[r0drig0lac]

Do you think the Spurs with a healthy Kawhi can beat the Pelicans or Thunder?

I was looking at the standings earlier today, and if the playoffs started now, the Spurs would be playing the Pelicans. I'm not sure that I'd like that match-up. The Spurs have usually had problem with them when it was Davis alone in the front court. Not sure how they'd fare with both Davis and Cousins to go against.

Kawhi 2017 playoffs? certainly
he was the best player in the world in this period

[cutewizard]

Kawhi 2017 playoffs? certainly
he was the best player in the world in this period


Kevin Durant says ......hi!

[r0drig0lac]

Kevin Durant says ......hi!

wut?


28/8/4 in 53/45/93
carrying a team with old Parker as his second best player, I'm sure he would do even better playing with the two best shooters in history and several elite defenders

[Ice009]

Kevin Durant says ......hi!

Kawhi was the best player on the planet during the playoffs last season up until the point he was knocked out of the playoffs. After he was permanently knocked out of the playoffs, KD took over, but up until that point Kawhi was definitely playing better overall than anyone else. He was playing insane basketball.

Anyway, after watching this game, even with a healthy Kawhi, I don't see the Spurs getting out of the first round. With the current seeding match-ups, I think the New Orleans front court will wreck the Spurs and OKC has a big 3 with firepower that I don't think the Spurs can match - too many scrubs on the Spurs. If the Spurs win the first round, it'd probably be with Kawhi playing at an amazing level and dragging them out. If Kawhi's not healthy, they'll be out quickly.

[Seventyniner]

Kawhi was the best player on the planet during the playoffs last season up until the point he was knocked out of the playoffs. After he was permanently knocked out of the playoffs, KD took over, but up until that point Kawhi was definitely playing better overall than anyone else. He was playing insane basketball.

Anyway, after watching this game, even with a healthy Kawhi, I don't see the Spurs getting out of the first round. With the current seeding match-ups, I think the New Orleans front court will wreck the Spurs and OKC has a big 3 with firepower that I don't think the Spurs can match - too many scrubs on the Spurs. If the Spurs win the first round, it'd probably be with Kawhi playing at an amazing level and dragging them out. If Kawhi's not healthy, they'll be out quickly.

Guess you weren't watching the Pelicans/Rockets game then.

[TheGreatYacht]

Send this deformed faggot back to Yugoslavia and his fluffers can Robin Williams themselves

[Ice009]

Guess you weren't watching the Pelicans/Rockets game then.

No I wasn't. I posted a few minutes after reading about Cousins' injury in another thread. Terrible, terrible news for New Orleans. Man, he was playing so well. Will he ever get back to that level? I guess he will have to talk to Rudy Gay about rehab. Has he had any major injuries before? I always remember him being quite durable, then again, I never watched or followed the Kings so I don't know his injury history.

[Hoops Czar]

Guess you weren't watching the Pelicans/Rockets game then.
Their front court will still wreck the Spurs.

[Ice009]

Their front court will still wreck the Spurs.

Well I did also mention the other day that with Davis alone they used to give us trouble.

Who else have they got these days?

[r0drig0lac]

Their front court will still wreck the Spurs.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bertans played possibly the worst game a Spur has played this season, last night. This faggot doesn't belong in the rotation much less starting :lmao DAF86

[Raven]

.. pass.

[DAF86]

Bertans played possibly the worst game a Spur has played this season, last night. This faggot doesn't belong in the rotation much less starting :lmao DAF86

Yeah, because of one game he doesn't deserve to play. :lol

BTW, your boy Tony sure did great, bh.

[dabom]

Yeah, because of one game he doesn't deserve to play. :lol

BTW, your boy Tony sure did great, bh.

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Bertans shitting the bed tonight. Hard.

[tholdren]

Lol bertans

[TheGreatYacht]

:lmao

Throw this dumpster fire thread right next to dabom's "Bertans is legit" thread

[HarlemHeat37]

I like Bertans as a 4th big or situational piece, he's too limited as a starter..Pau was fucking pathetic tonight, too, tbh..with Joffrey as the only other option, they're just gonna have to load up on Gay/Kawhi/Anderson as the 4 when the games matter..

[SuperCam]

:lmao

Throw this dumpster fire thread right next to dabom's "Bertans is legit" thread

imagine making a pitch to a star free agent that this retard is going to be one of your main rotation teammates while half the teams in the west have multiple all stars :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

imagine making a pitch to a star free agent that this retard is going to be one of your main rotation teammates while half the teams in the west have multiple all stars :lol
:lmao

"We got culture with locker room guys like Patty and Pau, young studs like Hilliard White & Blossomgame, not so 3 & not a lot of D guys like Danny and Kyle, and we got BP3 who does whatever it is that guy does"

[SAGirl]

I like Bertans as a 4th big or situational piece, he's too limited as a starter..Pau was fucking pathetic tonight, too, tbh..with Joffrey as the only other option, they're just gonna have to load up on Gay/Kawhi/Anderson as the 4 when the games matter..
True.
I keep thinking Spurs are screwed if Pau doesn't play better, by all metrics he's been the second best player in the team and when that is Pau Gasol and he's situational, it's not a good thing.

We really won't get a grasp for the team until Kiwi/Rudy get healthy and start playing.

[DAF86]

Bertans did a lot better than the starter, tbh.

What's the point of starting a 7 foot tortoise if he can't event post up guards? :lol

[Ice009]

If the Spurs can include him in a trade package at the deadline that will bring back a rotation player, I would definitely do that.

[MaNu4Tres]

If the Spurs can include him in a trade package at the deadline that will bring back a rotation player, I would definitely do that.

Or if he can help shed Pattys' deal tbh..

[Play Boban]

Is this a klan thread tbh?

[Play Boban]

Send this deformed faggot back to Yugoslavia and his fluffers can Robin Williams themselves

He is from a former Socialist Republic of the USSR. Get your facts straight. :blah

[weeks]

Yeahhh nah I'd rather have a healthy gay.
Pau used to take that top 3 with total confidence. Now I'm not seeing him even try it

[sasaint]

If the Spurs can include him in a trade package at the deadline that will bring back a rotation player, I would definitely do that.

This!


Or if he can help shed Pattys' deal tbh..

Or this!

But we all know it will be "C. None of the above."

[TheGreatYacht]

:lmao DAF86 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11102)

1 rebound as the starting Center and was absolutely cancerous all night until he got Pity garbage time free throws

[HarlemHeat37]

He has the worst shot selection since Gary Neal, tbh..

[TheGreatYacht]

^ yup. Sadly there's never been a shot he didn't like.

He's just around the league average in 3p% so it's not like his shooting is worth keeping on the court in spite of the many, many, many flaws he has. Was overrated around here when he was a stash so I'm not surprised folks still rate him. If he was a darker tone he would've been hated like Austin Daye

[SAGirl]

no one mentioned anything but he tweaked an ankle.
apparently it was nothing and he played the rest of the game through it, but who knows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=aigVXcR-xIw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=aigVXcR-xIw

[Raven]

... that went well...

[venitian navigator]

He's been good at defense in these last games, this one included. I frankly don't understand why we didn't call his number more in a game where he should have had a big advantage against any big guarding him (Gobert and Favors). Never seen a good screen made for him...

[TheGreatYacht]

He's been good at defense in these last games, this one included. I frankly don't understand why we didn't call his number more in a game where he should have had a big advantage against any big guarding him (Gobert and Favors). Never seen a good screen made for him...
Started off the post bad and it somehow got worse

[Ice009]

He's been good at defense in these last games, this one included. I frankly don't understand why we didn't call his number more in a game where he should have had a big advantage against any big guarding him (Gobert and Favors). Never seen a good screen made for him...

Why the hell do the Spurs not run plays or set screens like the Celtics used to do with Ray Allen to get their best shooters shots? Pop seems to be more good to great, doesn't matter who the player is taking the shot. How about not having shit shooters take shots and actually work to get your good shooters open shots?

[DAF86]

Glad Pop made the move, I hope he sticks with it. It will pay off on the long run.

[objective]

For the people who think Bertans is crap or a crap fit as a starter ...

You might be right.

But Bertans is only making 1.3 million.

RC signed Pau to 3 years and $48 knowing full well he was really a bench player against GS and likely Houston. They knew Dedmon started after Pau became healthy again.

Bertans starting even one game over a healthy Pau is an indictment of the front office.

[Seventyniner]

Bertans might not even be in the rotation if the team is fully healthy.

[TheGreatYacht]

Don't let the Super Bowl distract you from the fact this dude is god awful and might be the worst 6'10 rebounder of all time

[SAGirl]

For the people who think Bertans is crap or a crap fit as a starter ...

You might be right.

But Bertans is only making 1.3 million.

RC signed Pau to 3 years and $48 knowing full well he was really a bench player against GS and likely Houston. They knew Dedmon started after Pau became healthy again.

Bertans starting even one game over a healthy Pau is an indictment of the front office.
I agree with you on this too.

I think Bertans needs to improve his shot selection. We know he can shoot and ocassionally get so hot you can allow him heat check shots but him taking clearly contested jumpers is a bad idea. He's now shooting 36% or something from 3 which for a specialist like him is not a good %. I believe that would improve if he took better shots... I am not ready to indict him on just this one game. He wasn't impressive. I did like his rotations on defense and his effort and i prefer him a lot over the midget munchkin lineups which I hate. But him being a better option than Pau Gasol is just an indictment of Pau and his deal.. and as you said it was predictable.

Beyond that... look at them start 2 guys still in their rookie deals and a guy in basically a minimum deal. These guys (the young guys) are due to get paid any way you look at it. What happens when both DAvis and Kyle want to get paid? They are let go on what will turn out to be really moderate sums much like JSimms and Dedmon to keep the overpaid guys who are in the bench...

[SAGirl]

Bertans might not even be in the rotation if the team is fully healthy.
Pop's love for munchkin lineups will ensure that is the case.

[Seventyniner]

Pop's love for munchkin lineups will ensure that is the case.

Bertans doesn't play much like a big at all compared to Kawhi, Gay, and Anderson.

[TheGreatYacht]

Munchkin lineups > Any starting lineup with Bertans and Fathead in it

[SAGirl]

Munchkin lineups > Any starting lineup with Bertans and Fathead in it
no way.
you will continue to lose games that way.

[Chinook]

Bertans seems like a necessary starter with Kyle and Murray in the SL. I was actually fine that he was aggressive. Davis, Danny and Bryn should be taking a page out of Houston's playbook and take any open three they find. It's not like the team is going to get a better shot. I've said many times that guys don't have enough 3/10 or 4/13 games on the team. Throw it up, and let Aldridge and Murray go get them.

[ceds]

At worst he fills the Bonner role....I'm pretty sure he is a long term piece

[TheGreatYacht]

no way.
you will continue to lose games that way.
Starting lineups with Bertans and Fathead in em will continue to put the team in huge deficits

[palangi]

Why the hell do the Spurs not run plays or set screens like the Celtics used to do with Ray Allen to get their best shooters shots? Pop seems to be more good to great, doesn't matter who the player is taking the shot. How about not having shit shooters take shots and actually work to get your good shooters open shots?

Because wee are more worried about posting up LMA

[SAGirl]

Bertans seems like a necessary starter with Kyle and Murray in the SL. I was actually fine that he was aggressive. Davis, Danny and Bryn should be taking a page out of Houston's playbook and take any open three they find. It's not like the team is going to get a better shot. I've said many times that guys don't have enough 3/10 or 4/13 games on the team. Throw it up, and let Aldridge and Murray go get them.
Bertans can improve his shot selection and Pop can also call plays to get him shots...

[SAGirl]

Starting lineups with Bertans and Fathead in em will continue to put the team in huge deficits
No way either. They started off well, scoring with no problems, but in a few possssions Danny threw a bad pass to Bertans in a corner that he mishandled, Bertans felt free to take a heavily contestes shot with a guy right in his grill and Murray allowed Rubio to get hot, Aldridge missed a shot and bam. They were actually subbed out really early and the bench was worse. They have to figure it out.

I am Not sure Bertans will work out as a starter. I just said I am not ready to throw in the towel on the basis of one game.

[Down Under]

He's a shocking rebounder obviously, but his job is to come off screens and hit 3's anytime he's open - with his length & quick release he's impossible to block. He can't start though, obviously with his defense.

[r0drig0lac]

Because wee are more worried about posting up LMA

1st option, all start, etc etc...

[Seventyniner]

Bertans seems like a necessary starter with Kyle and Murray in the SL. I was actually fine that he was aggressive. Davis, Danny and Bryn should be taking a page out of Houston's playbook and take any open three they find. It's not like the team is going to get a better shot. I've said many times that guys don't have enough 3/10 or 4/13 games on the team. Throw it up, and let Aldridge and Murray go get them.

To Bertans "open" means "has the ball".

[DAF86]

3 blocks tonight.

Shooting, passing, speed, hops, athleticism, blocks. What's not to like? I don't know why some folks are so down on him.

Pop needs to start have him finish games when he's playing well, like today.

[Atl Spur]

Tony must go, patty, joff, Danny all must go! I like Bertans.......

[Atl Spur]

Oh yeah Pau too

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol I hope OP wanted to start him to get the tank going, because.....

[TheGreatYacht]

One of the worst posters of all time :lmao

After the failure that was your BP3 blessing, now you had to watch your boy get donkey fucked by Big dick Randle smh

[TheGreatYacht]

Watching the game yesterday reminded me of the night Bynum took Blair's manhood and any future he had in the NBA. I don't think he can look at his wife the same ever again. It was tough to watch.

[jermaine]

Watching the game yesterday reminded me of the night Bynum took Blair's manhood and any future he had in the NBA. I don't think he can look at his wife the same ever again. It was tough to watch.

What happened to him?

[TheGreatYacht]

What happened to him?
To who? The night Bynum dropped 16 & 30 on Blair, completely burying him in the doghouse forever or Randle dropping a 25 piece on Bertans while making him look like a red headed step child with 4 fingers and no shoulders?

[TimDunkem]

It's sad when your backup pf makes you miss a washed up David Lee.

[jermaine]

It's sad when your backup pf makes you miss a washed up David Lee.

Our entire roster makes you miss David Lee, an Dewayne Dedmon too!!

[cd021]

It's sad when your backup pf makes you miss a washed up David Lee.
Yeah Lee definitely wasn't washed. He's streets ahead of Joff and could actually help this team.

[cd021]

To who? The night Bynum dropped 16 & 30 on Blair, completely burying him in the doghouse forever or Randle dropping a 25 piece on Bertans while making him look like a red headed step child with 4 fingers and no shoulders?

Weirdly enough, Blair stayed in the NBA longer than Bynum after that game's embarrassment . Bynum only played 56 more games two seasons while Blair hung on as a deep bench player.

[DAF86]

TheGreatFag :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

FAP86 :lol

Always fun to bump your shit posts. Just stop firing takes bruh, you're a walking L.

[DAF86]

Sure thing son. :lol

[Play Boban]

:wow

[DAF86]

FAP86 :lol

Always fun to bump your shit posts. Just stop firing takes bruh, you're a walking L.

Sup faggot?

[SAGirl]

Had a good game. Hopefully he doesn’t stay in the doghouse.

[spurs10]

Had a good game. Hopefully he doesn’t stay in the doghouse. Ruff!

[Spurtacular]

Bertans too much of a noob on defense (highlight plays excluded).

[DAF86]

Pop might go this route on game 3, imho.

[DAF86]

My man looking good on both ends of the floor, tbh.

[Stabula]

Bertans flashing his true potential tbh

[SpurSpike]

I like that he always plays with an attitude and fearless with the 3's has flashed quite a few tricks people may not expect around the paint.

Hes kind of like our ginger Durant!

[Archie Moses]

I like that he always plays with an attitude and fearless with the 3's has flashed quite a few tricks people may not expect around the paint.

Hes kind of like our ginger Durant!

Except he's not a snake.

*make slithers noise here*

[SwansonInSibagat]

Well, I do start him in 2K. Him and Jakob.

[Chinook]

He did look really good, especially on D. But nah, he should be on the bench for the time being. He and Poeltl go really well together. Still am partial to White/Belinelli/Gay/Bertans/Poeltl. Though had Pop run Mills/White/Belinelli/Bertans/Poeltl, it would also work. I'd just want another go-to option there.

[kobyz]

still fools gold

[Seventyniner]

He did look really good, especially on D. But nah, he should be on the bench for the time being. He and Poeltl go really well together. Still am partial to White/Belinelli/Gay/Bertans/Poeltl. Though had Pop run Mills/White/Belinelli/Bertans/Poeltl, it would also work. I'd just want another go-to option there.

The new Splitter/Bonner pairing?

[superbigtime]

Bertans fan right here.

[playbonner15]

The new Splitter/Bonner pairing?
:bobo

[Chinook]

The new Splitter/Bonner pairing?

Yes. That whole bench is a good model for the second unit. Mills or Beli as Neal, White as Manu, and Gay as Jack.

[SAGirl]

Yes. That whole bench is a good model for the second unit. Mills or Beli as Neal, White as Manu, and Gay as Jack.
Gay should continue to start for the moment unless someone can unseat him (unlikely, my candidate would be Bertans but it's basically speculation whether he can do it, very limited samples of him at SF and even less or none as starting SF).

They got Marco and Mills for bench scoring, paid a pretty penny, they should not need to send their only starting quality forward there.

Whether the SL stays as they are, I truly don't know, but if their bench has troubles they should explore other avenues first b4 sending Gay there. Swapping Gasol and Poltl could be an idea... there's definitely other things I'd try first.

[ceperez]

Gay should continue to start for the moment unless someone can unseat him (unlikely, my candidate would be Bertans but it's basically speculation whether he can do it, very limited samples of him at SF and even less or none as starting SF).

They got Marco and Mills for bench scoring, paid a pretty penny, they should not need to send their only starting quality forward there.

Whether the SL stays as they are, I truly don't know, but if their bench has troubles they should explore other avenues first b4 sending Gay there. Swapping Gasol and Poltl could be an idea... there's definitely other things I'd try first.

Both Gay and Bertans can stretch the flaw. Gay however can post up his man.

I see the two interchangeable pieces in the lineup is at SF and at C. SF - Gay or Bertans, C - Poetl or Gasol.

A 2nd lineup with White, Mills, Belinelli, Bertans, Poetl or White, Mills, Bertans, Cunningham, Poetl has no player that can post up or no player that can individually create their own offense (verdict still out on White if he can do this).

Walker may be a player that create his own offense. We won't know that until he learns the Spurs system first!

[Seventyniner]

Yes. That whole bench is a good model for the second unit. Mills or Beli as Neal, White as Manu, and Gay as Jack.

I totally read that last part as "Gay ass Jack". Had to do a double take.

[XDT76]

Both Gay and Bertans can stretch the flaw. Gay however can post up his man.

I see the two interchangeable pieces in the lineup is at SF and at C. SF - Gay or Bertans, C - Poetl or Gasol.

A 2nd lineup with White, Mills, Belinelli, Bertans, Poetl or White, Mills, Bertans, Cunningham, Poetl has no player that can post up or no player that can individually create their own offense (verdict still out on White if he can do this).

Walker may be a player that create his own offense. We won't know that until he learns the Spurs system first!

In my opinion if Gasol goes to reserves, Bertans should go to SL. If Jakob goes to SL he will jam up the offense on the inside, Bertans can help space the floor. With Gasol in the reserves he can help to be a secondary playmaker.

[cd021]

I am becoming increasingly curious about a Murray, DDR, Gay, Bertans and LMA starting lineup.

Bertans pulls his man out of the paint allowing for easier penetration and more space for LMA to work down low.

White, Mills, Belinelli, Gasol and Poeltl unit would likely be fine. They would have plenty of shooting and Gasol could be more useful in that role.

[ceperez]

I am becoming increasingly curious about a Murray, DDR, Gay, Bertans and LMA starting lineup.

Bertans pulls his man out of the paint allowing for easier penetration and more space for LMA to work down low.

White, Mills, Belinelli, Gasol and Poeltl unit would likely be fine. They would have plenty of shooting and Gasol could be more useful in that role.

Bertans instead of a center will definitely open up the paint for everyone to operate in. Sounds promising to me.

The 2nd unit with two bigs will just pound the smaller teams. Mills and Belinelli aren't good penetrators anyway, so who cares if the paint is clogged.

[BackHome]

I like him playing with JB as he can handle the ball and make the pass to a cutting Poetl for easy baskets.

[R. DeMurre]

It's incredible to think back on Bertans as an overlooked barely discussed throw in of the George Hill/Kawhi trade. I like Hill, but Bertans could potentially be a player equal to him on his own.... that was amazing work by the front office.

[R. DeMurre]

It's incredible to think back on Bertans as an overlooked barely discussed throw in of the George Hill/Kawhi trade. I like Hill, but Bertans could potentially be a player equal to him on his own.... that was amazing work by the front office.

And if you follow the evolution of the trade, the Spurs gave up George Hill and now have Bertans, Poeltl, DeRozan, and likely a late first round draft pick. That's an incredible haul.

[MaNu4Tres]

Bertans should start over Gasol.

Here are some stats last year when he played 20+ minutes in 23 games last season:

23 Games/20+ minutes:
Avg. 11 points 4 rebounds, 2 assists on 45% shooting 37% from 3.

Advanced:

When Bertans played 20-29 minutes ( 19 games), he was a +7.2 rating (Spurs were a +7.2 when he was on the court per 100 possessions).

When Bertans played 30-39 minutes (4 games), he had a +9.3 rating (Spurs were +9.3 when he was on the court per 100 possesions).

[monkeypunk]

Bertans should start over Gasol.

Here are some stats last year when he played 20+ minutes in 23 games last season:

23 Games/20+ minutes:
Avg. 11 points 4 rebounds, 2 assists on 45% shooting 37% from 3.

Advanced:

When Bertans played 20-29 minutes ( 19 games), he was a +7.2 rating (Spurs were a +7.2 when he was on the court per 100 possessions).

When Bertans played 30-39 minutes (4 games), he had a +9.3 rating (Spurs were +9.3 when he was on the court per 100 possesions).

Well, those are compelling numbers.

I think he'll start at the 3 at some point when Jakob takes Pau's spot with LMA at the 4.

Bertans is an old school Euro player, used to having batteries thrown at him during games and tough as nails. We need dudes not scared to mix it up but more so, just not scared.

Would have been nice to keep Kyle but Bertans fits more of a need with his 3 and I do think his % can and will go up as he builds more chemistry, guys figure out his spots and get him the ball there.

[TheGreatYacht]

This faggot shrinks under pressure each time. Him as a starter continues to be fucking horrendous.

[Mr. Body]

He's so bad.

[SAGirl]

He has indeed been bad in preseason aside from the first game against the Heat. Team needs him so he’s going to play. Hopefully he gets it together.

[BackHome]

Pop needs to help his confidence by not pulling his ass for every little mistake. He needs to know he is going to play every game if he is hitting three he plays a lot if he is cold then not so much.

[Dhbsr555]

But he plays d and that’s what matters

[ceperez]

He has indeed been bad in preseason aside from the first game against the Heat. Team needs him so he’s going to play. Hopefully he gets it together.

The only real time I've seen him useful is when he's playing well with Forbes. Forbes is so much more effective on catch and shoot, and Bertans has found him several times on a kick and drive.

He doesn't move or shoot as well on the move as Belinelli. This is in fact his real problem. There is someone else on the team that fills his role much better!

[TheGreatYacht]

But he plays d and that’s what matters
:lmao

[DAF86]

This guy needs to be a top 5 player for us to surpass expectations.

For that to happen Pop needs to losen up his leash a bit more and give him more minutes. Cunningham has no business getting any amount of rotation minutes over Davis.

[FkLA]

There's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't average 20-25 mpg this year. I was pissed at Pop only playing him for that one five minute stretch in the first half.

[TheGreatYacht]

Played great tonight. Not a fan of him starting at all, but he definitely needs to play over Brandon P-Cunningham.

[r0drig0lac]

Played great tonight. Not a fan of him starting at all, but he definitely needs to play over Brandon P-Cunningham.

lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

Still not a fan of him starting. He was making me re-think my stance with his good play in his 10-15min energy role, but tonight erased all of that. He was awful tonight just like he is every time he starts.

[DAF86]

Mi nigga starting and making the Spurs get W's :hat

[TheGreatYacht]

Forgot to mention he got benched in the second half by Pop in favor of Rudy and it worked out great :tu

[BackHome]

Yeah it looks like he is not going to be able to adjust to the NBA had high hopes but he needs to be much more consistent

[Chinook]

I think he has a role in the NBA, but it would be similar to the one Forbes is supposed to have. Bertans is a good shooter when his feet are set, so bringing him for certain situations to hit threes is something he'll be able to do no matter how rocky anything else is. But he needs to play with an edge. I thought he did so last year during his high moments, but he's not doing it now. Maybe it's the money? Either way, if he can't do more than the aforementioned latter-day-Bonner role, then he should be paid about half of what he's making. The contract the team gave him suggests they at least want him in the rotation full time.

[RC_Drunkford]

I'd trade him at this point. 7 million is too much, we can get a better player for that money

[kobyz]

I would not start him even in the d league, i think you can find a bunch of better player than him in the d league...

[Coach X]

Times goes by and Spurs doesn't realize Davis Bertans can't be a PF in the NBA. He's a wing and he's been it all his career preNBA.

Just in this last game, compare his minutes at PF vs his minutes at SF next to Rudy Gay (PF) at the end of the 3rd quarter (Gasol-Gay-Bertans-DeRozan-Mills vs Williams-Kuzma-Stevenson-Hart-Rondo):
- DB Defending Kuzma: Rondo scores a three, Mills misses an off the cut blank lay-up from Gasol, Williams score rolling after side p&r with Rondo assisting, Gay and1 taking his own rebound after 1on1.
- Then KCP subs Kuzma: Belli takes him, Bertans takes Hart in the perimeter and Gay takes Stevenson (being able of helping inside and rebounding, where Rudy is effective in D). The quarter finishes with 4 consecutive stops and Bertans sits after 15" of the fourth.

Bertans is quick for his size, agile but not strong. As a helper, his body can't absorb the contact of a strong penetrator or a post player. He's not a good rim protector as an interior helper but he's an effective second helper coming from outside or behind. He can't block or box out a PF or a C facing them 1on1, but he can block and rebound above the rim when he's coming from outside. Davis is fast enough running the court, agile enough to escape from screens and his range and wingspan are useful bothering shooters. With San Antonio playing with one or two bigs (plus Gay) protecting the paint, the problem of Davis being beaten in 1on1 is less worrying than him having to be the helper. As I've said, he can contribute more to the team defense as an SF than as PF.

Offensively, there is no doubt what's his role and how can he fit into the system. He's a good fit to Aldridge inside game, DeRozan penetrations or Gay mid-range 1on1.
I thought PATFO offered Davis a new contract (and let go Anderson) willing to give him regular minutes at the SF position. Davis hasn't had any continuity as a Spurs and I'm still expecting Popovich to give him a real chance of showing what he can do. I will keep believing in Bertans until he's allowed to play in his position 10-15 consecutive games. Give him consistently just 15min/game in his position and finally we all will find out if he's a useful player or garbage.

Popovich doesn't need to make any big change, simply assign correct defensive matchups that will help your team defense instead of exposing your players' weaknesses.

[Chinook]

Bertans isn't a wing. He's not that agile and doesn't consistently move his feet well. He needs to be able to play with other forwards and be able to move back and forth between positions with those guys. Otherwise, what you're describing as putting him in a good position is really just hiding him. Checking Josh Hart is not a sign that one is a good wing defender.

[skookumchuck]

Times goes by and Spurs doesn't realize Davis Bertans can't be a PF in the NBA. He's a wing and he's been it all his career preNBA.

Just in this last game, compare his minutes at PF vs his minutes at SF next to Rudy Gay (PF) at the end of the 3rd quarter (Gasol-Gay-Bertans-DeRozan-Mills vs Williams-Kuzma-Stevenson-Hart-Rondo):
- DB Defending Kuzma: Rondo scores a three, Mills misses an off the cut blank lay-up from Gasol, Williams score rolling after side p&r with Rondo assisting, Gay and1 taking his own rebound after 1on1.
- Then KCP subs Kuzma: Belli takes him, Bertans takes Hart in the perimeter and Gay takes Stevenson (being able of helping inside and rebounding, where Rudy is effective in D). The quarter finishes with 4 consecutive stops and Bertans sits after 15" of the fourth.

Bertans is quick for his size, agile but not strong. As a helper, his body can't absorb the contact of a strong penetrator or a post player. He's not a good rim protector as an interior helper but he's an effective second helper coming from outside or behind. He can't block or box out a PF or a C facing them 1on1, but he can block and rebound above the rim when he's coming from outside. Davis is fast enough running the court, agile enough to escape from screens and his range and wingspan are useful bothering shooters. With San Antonio playing with one or two bigs (plus Gay) protecting the paint, the problem of Davis being beaten in 1on1 is less worrying than him having to be the helper. As I've said, he can contribute more to the team defense as an SF than as PF.

Offensively, there is no doubt what's his role and how can he fit into the system. He's a good fit to Aldridge inside game, DeRozan penetrations or Gay mid-range 1on1.
I thought PATFO offered Davis a new contract (and let go Anderson) willing to give him regular minutes at the SF position. Davis hasn't had any continuity as a Spurs and I'm still expecting Popovich to give him a real chance of showing what he can do. I will keep believing in Bertans until he's allowed to play in his position 10-15 consecutive games. Give him consistently just 15min/game in his position and finally we all will find out if he's a useful player or garbage.

Popovich doesn't need to make any big change, simply assign correct defensive matchups that will help your team defense instead of exposing your players' weaknesses.
Too much quality and factual truth in this post - spurstalk :bobo

[Coach X]

Bertans isn't a wing. He's not that agile and doesn't consistently move his feet well. He needs to be able to play with other forwards and be able to move back and forth between positions with those guys. Otherwise, what you're describing as putting him in a good position is really just hiding him. Checking Josh Hart is not a sign that one is a good wing defender.
I'm not saying he's a stopper or the next Danny Green. Just saying he can play better defense in his natural position. Minutes vs Hart are just an example. We barely have seen Bertans playing next to two bigs or a big+Gay like many other wings. Not trying to hide him, just giving him a fair environment for the player he is like any other player has.

I firmly believe he's a wing more than a forward. And his career in the NBA is up to that. I don't think he can play the 4 in the NBA unless he earns muscle and becomes a different player.

[BackHome]

He is never going to be a PF full time most of the time he should be at SF position. One thing I would like to see him do more is inside stuff he has decent handles and can do back door dunks or fake pump and then drive for lay up.

[spurraider21]

:lol "future all star"

[RC_Drunkford]

Bertans need to find a in between game on offense. Midrange and driving to the hoop. On defense he's not physical enough to be a PF, he can't deal with contact and that makes him a weak rebounder. He's also too slow to defend athletic NBA wings and gets often caught out of position so they drive by him. He needs to work on his defensive stance and positioning on the perimeter or bulk up and get physical to play PF. At this point I would trade him

[spurraider21]

i wouldn't trade him though. i dont think we'd get much back for him and at worst he'll be an expiring deal we can throw around in the summer

he's overpaid for his role... 7 mil for a reserve shooting specialist is steep, but he can still find ways to contribute imo. early to be giving up on him. he's actually knocking down his shots at a high clip so far, so there's that

[DAF86]

Everybody's so quick to dismiss this guy. :lol Give him 10/15 straight as the starter, let him gain some confidence and consistent minutes for once in his NBA career and then let's see if he's up to it or not.

Pop keeps fucking up with his minutes and role non-stop, I'm sure that if Pop displayed the same type of confidence in Bertans, than he did with guys like Forbes or Murray, Bertans would be confident enough to unleash his full potential. This guy has one of biggest ceilings on this roster, it would be a mistake to keep treating him like a 9th or 10th guy.

[ceperez]

Everybody's so quick to dismiss this guy. :lol Give him 10/15 straight as the starter, let him gain some confidence and consistent minutes for once in his NBA career and then let's see if he's up to it or not.

Pop keeps fucking up with his minutes and role non-stop, I'm sure that if Pop displayed the same type of confidence in Bertans, than he did with guys like Forbes or Murray, Bertans would be confident enough to unleash his full potential. This guy has one of biggest ceilings on this roster, it would be a mistake to keep treating him like a 9th or 10th guy.

I don't know about upside here. He's got more mobility and hops than Matt Bonner. What I don't see is variety and creativity in his play.

[BackHome]

You can see it in his play he looks like he doesn’t want to make a mistake. He needs to be like Manu and just play and Pop has to treat him like Forbes and just leave him in there if he misses a defensive assignment.

We not close to winning a championship so find out before next draft what we have in him. He should be getting twenty minutes a game nothing less. If he sucks well then draft his replacement or try to trade him

[DAF86]

I don't know about upside here. He's got more mobility and hops than Matt Bonner. What I don't see is variety and creativity in his play.

He's an underrated rim protector and passer, but his best atributte by far is his quick shooting coming off screens. He's not a Bonner that could only shoot spot ups. When Bertans is feeling it, he can light it up in a hurry. He can go in some of those Klay Thompson flurries where he doesn't need to be well established to hit 3's. Pop needs to show a little more patience with Bertans to see if he can gain the confidence that allows him to translate what he did in Europe to the NBA.

[ceperez]

You can see it in his play he looks like he doesn’t want to make a mistake. He needs to be like Manu and just play and Pop has to treat him like Forbes and just leave him in there if he misses a defensive assignment.

We not close to winning a championship so find out before next draft what we have in him. He should be getting twenty minutes a game nothing less. If he sucks well then draft his replacement or try to trade him

I agree that he looks like he doesn't want to make a mistake.

[ceperez]

He's an underrated rim protector and passer, but his best atributte by far is his quick shooting coming off screens. He's not a Bonner that could only shoot spot ups. When Bertans is feeling it, he can light it up in a hurry. He can go in some of those Klay Thompson flurries where he doesn't need to be well established to hit 3's. Pop needs to show a little more patience with Bertans to see if he can gain the confidence that allows him to translate what he did in Europe to the NBA.

What is needed to get him comfortable.

Forbes seem to be comfortable now, but he's got the luxury of bringing the ball up and sometimes calling his own plays.

The only time Davis can call a play is when he drives to the basket avoiding a closeout. He doesn't seem to have the option to hog the ball like the other players.

[Chinook]

Davis' problem is that he doesn't try hard enough most of the time. Guards can box out, so there's no justification for Bertans not getting it done there. I do think a number of players are teeing off on him in a way that should be against the rules. Like I think it was the game against Indy where a player just straight up two-hand shoved Bertans to the ground and got away with it. Davis has to fight back there. He's never going to get away from having to hold his own against NBA strength and athleticism. It's never going to be okay how bad he is at rebounding. If the team has to play a second big and bench a perimeter play to get Bertans on the floor, then it really decentivizes playing Davis at all outside of certain situations.

[DAF86]

These are the types of things Bertans can do when playing with confidence:

CzBtYutMyLc

But I guess that teaching him a lesson and yanking him at every little missed defensive rotation is better than trying to build his confidence.

[Mugen]

Yeah, I'm with DA on this one. I like Bertans starting next to Cunningham tbh. Mostly because I like the semblance of defense that Dante provides in the SL coupled with Rudy being better utilized off the bench.

Running a few plays for Bertans to start the game should also be a priority tbh, just so the defense has to account for him and get him confidence. Bertans definitely needs to toughen the F up and work on his cutting for layups (and not just fadeaway 3s) like Beli is so adept at.

[spurraider21]

These are the types of things Bertans can do when playing with confidence:

CzBtYutMyLc

But I guess that teaching him a lesson and yanking him at every little missed defensive rotation is better than trying to build his confidence.
the problem is he's not any better than marco is he's going to be a defensive sieve. sure, he's bigger than marco, and theoretically should be a stretch 4... but as chinook pointed out, he just gets annihilated on the boards and on D. so if you're just going to play him as a 3, then there isn't a huge benefit of playing him over a belinelli

i agree that bertans offers potential because he rim protects as a help defender whereas marco is completely useless on that end. but we need to see consistent effort from him or at least a semi decent ability to box out

[Chinook]

Hitting a bunch of threes is something a lot of players can do with confidence. Bryn has done it. So has Marco. I do think it's up to Pop to get the most out of his players, and he can't sit there blameless when guys aren't playing the right way. But the burden remains on Davis to be a more consistent player at his age than he has been so far. He's an adult who's been a professional for a decade. He shouldn't need a coach to tell him to try harder on defense, nor should he be worried about being benched.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bertans looks like he doesn't want to make a mistake?

That's the dumbest shit I've ever read on here. He's never seen a shot he doesn't like.... or a rebound he didn't hate.

[DAF86]

the problem is he's not any better than marco is he's going to be a defensive sieve. sure, he's bigger than marco, and theoretically should be a stretch 4... but as chinook pointed out, he just gets annihilated on the boards and on D. so if you're just going to play him as a 3, then there isn't a huge benefit of playing him over a belinelli

i agree that bertans offers potential because he rim protects as a help defender whereas marco is completely useless on that end. but we need to see consistent effort from him or at least a semi decent ability to box out


Hitting a bunch of threes is something a lot of players can do with confidence. Bryn has done it. So has Marco. I do think it's up to Pop to get the most out of his players, and he can't sit there blameless when guys aren't playing the right way. But the burden remains on Davis to be a more consistent player at his age than he has been so far. He's an adult who's been a professional for a decade. He shouldn't need a coach to tell him to try harder on defense, nor should he be worried about being benched.

His defensive struggles are being highly overblown. Over his NBA career he rates exactly as an average defender. With time, confidence, experience and a little more name recognition from refs and rivals he should easily become above average on that end. If you add to that fact, that he has been a net positive on offense in each and every season he has played with the Spurs, then there's just no reason to keep him in such a short leash.

[Chinook]

His defensive struggles are being highly overblown. Over his NBA career he rates exactly as an average defender. With time, confidence, experience and a little more name recognition from refs and rivals he should easily become above average on that end. If you add to that fact, that he has been a net positive on offense in each and every season he has played with the Spurs, then there's just no reason to keep him in such a short leash.

Bertans needs to play like an adult, not a kid. I agree he's not actually incapable of being a good defender (like Forbes, Davis actually had really good analytics last year), which is why I don't buy this idea that Bertans is playing out of position. His struggles this year are definitely and effort/confidence thing. The question really is what's the best path the team can take going forward. Bertans is a very good shooter, but the team isn't really hurting for shooting anymore, especially on the perimeter. Davis needs to add more as a PF, because that's a spot where he could really get minutes this year.

Could Pop giving Bertans a longer leash help? Maybe, but it should be noted that Davis wasn't benched after just one mistake last game. He was benched after several. The reason why Pop's hook was annoying with Green is because Danny would have a stretch where he'd be making good plays, then he'd make a mistake and get pulled. Then his backup (Neal, Beli, whomever) would come in and fuck up, and Pop would sit back like "Yep, I fixed that problem". Bertans, simply put, isn't that good, and he hasn't been that good when he's gotten the hook. The team has options for shooters and options for forwards now where they don't have to give Bertans a bunch of run hoping that he comes around. He doesn't realistically affect their ceiling if he can't at least box out.

[TD 21]

Bertans needs to play like an adult, not a kid. I agree he's not actually incapable of being a good defender (like Forbes, Davis actually had really good analytics last year), which is why I don't buy this idea that Bertans is playing out of position. His struggles this year are definitely and effort/confidence thing. The question really is what's the best path the team can take going forward. Bertans is a very good shooter, but the team isn't really hurting for shooting anymore, especially on the perimeter. Davis needs to add more as a PF, because that's a spot where he could really get minutes this year.

Could Pop giving Bertans a longer leash help? Maybe, but it should be noted that Davis wasn't benched after just one mistake last game. He was benched after several. The reason why Pop's hook was annoying with Green is because Danny would have a stretch where he'd be making good plays, then he'd make a mistake and get pulled. Then his backup (Neal, Beli, whomever) would come in and fuck up, and Pop would sit back like "Yep, I fixed that problem". Bertans, simply put, isn't that good, and he hasn't been that good when he's gotten the hook. The team has options for shooters and options for forwards now where they don't have to give Bertans a bunch of run hoping that he comes around. He doesn't realistically affect their ceiling if he can't at least box out.

They don't have many options at forward, especially with the 3 back court injuries limiting the amount they can play 3 guard/wing lineups. Sure, they'll fake it (if Poeltl continues to generally start) for spot minutes with Aldridge masquerading as one, but in matchups where they need multiple forwards together for significant minutes, Bertans has to play.

Even if they wanted him to, Gay's days as even a 30 mpg player are more than likely finished and Cunningham is too limited to average something like 25 mpg.

They also need as much volume 3-point shooting as possible. Being 1st in percentage doesn't mean much if you're 30th in attempts.

Only an archaic organization wouldn't see the value in a mobile 6'10'' guy, who can shoot off movement, pass off the dribble and protect the rim.

[DAF86]

Bertans needs to play like an adult, not a kid. I agree he's not actually incapable of being a good defender (like Forbes, Davis actually had really good analytics last year), which is why I don't buy this idea that Bertans is playing out of position. His struggles this year are definitely and effort/confidence thing. The question really is what's the best path the team can take going forward. Bertans is a very good shooter, but the team isn't really hurting for shooting anymore, especially on the perimeter. Davis needs to add more as a PF, because that's a spot where he could really get minutes this year.

Could Pop giving Bertans a longer leash help? Maybe, but it should be noted that Davis wasn't benched after just one mistake last game. He was benched after several. The reason why Pop's hook was annoying with Green is because Danny would have a stretch where he'd be making good plays, then he'd make a mistake and get pulled. Then his backup (Neal, Beli, whomever) would come in and fuck up, and Pop would sit back like "Yep, I fixed that problem". Bertans, simply put, isn't that good, and he hasn't been that good when he's gotten the hook. The team has options for shooters and options for forwards now where they don't have to give Bertans a bunch of run hoping that he comes around. He doesn't realistically affect their ceiling if he can't at least box out.

And yet with all those suppossed "several mistakes" Bertans still rates as an average defender and a net positive player all around. So he's either not making as many mistakes as he's assumed to make, or his contributions are so important that his mistakes aren't that relevant and should be overlooked a bit in favour of having him on the court more.

I'm just baffled at what is that Pop sees that he has no problem giving a limited guy like Forbes 35 minutes per game despite awful metrics in both offense and defense (untill this season, where he's being a plus on O. Not as much as Bertans though) but keeps treating a clearly more influential player like Bertans like a fucking scrub.

[Chinook]

They don't have many options at forward, especially with the 3 back court injuries limiting the amount they can play 3 guard/wing lineups. Sure, they'll fake it (if Poeltl continues to generally start) for spot minutes with Aldridge masquerading as one, but in matchups where they need multiple forwards together for significant minutes, Bertans has to play.

Even if they wanted him to, Gay's days as even a 30 mpg player are more than likely finished and Cunningham is too limited to average something like 25 mpg.

They also need as much volume 3-point shooting as possible. Being 1st in percentage doesn't mean much if you're 30th in attempts.

Only an archaic organization wouldn't see the value in a mobile 6'10'' guy, who can shoot off movement, pass off the dribble and protect the rim.

Bertans isn't getting many minutes because the team has options at forward. Are there minutes available? Yes, but not so many that he doesn't have to play well to earn them.

I agree about Gay, but between him, Cun small-ball and big-ball, there are players to fill the spots. As guys get back, that'll become even more apparent.

Their three-best players shoot a bunch of twos. They aren't going to shoot many more threes with Bertans in the lineup than not.

If Davis can't rebound, his height is meaningless. Shot-blocking wings don't have the same value as shot-blocking bigs, so if Bertans has to defend outside the paint, he won't be in position to block shots. He's mobile for a big, but not that mobile for a wing. So if the actual debate right now in the thread goes the way of the folks wanting Bertans to be a three and play on the perimeter, then he doesn't offer value, either to an archaic organization or a new-age one.

Can't blame Pop for this. He clearly loves him some stretch-fours. It's outright disingenuous to act like the Spurs are against shooting PFs. Davis has to do PF things to get the minutes though, not just shoot.

[Chinook]

And yet with all those suppossed "several mistakes" Bertans still rates as an average defender and a net positive player all around. So he's either not making as many mistakes as he's assumed to make, or his contributions are so important that his mistakes aren't that relevant and should be overlooked a bit in favour of having him on the court more.

Why do you keep averaging three years? He played plenty last year. This very thread talks about it. Pop gave him plenty of run when Bertans didn't play soft like he is now. But right now, Bertans isn't playing well. He is making mistakes. He's not grading out as an average defender this year. The team is struggling on the boards and not defending anyone with him this year. This year, the offense with him is worse with him on the court. This year's Bertans isn't playing well. That's why he's not getting minutes.


I'm just baffled at what is that Pop sees that he has no problem giving a limited guy like Forbes 35 minutes per game despite awful metrics in both offense and defense (untill this season, where he's being a plus on O. Not as much as Bertans though) but keeps treating a clearly more influential player like Bertans like a fucking scrub.

If you can't understand why Forbes is playing and not Bertans, I don't know what to tell you. It's really freaking obvious. Anyways, Bryn has better impact stats than Davis does. No idea where you're getting contrary information.

[DAF86]

Bertans isn't getting many minutes because the team has options at forward. Are there minutes available? Yes, but not so many that he doesn't have to play well to earn them.

I agree about Gay, but between him, Cun small-ball and big-ball, there are players to fill the spots. As guys get back, that'll become even more apparent.

Their three-best players shoot a bunch of twos. They aren't going to shoot many more threes with Bertans in the lineup than not.

If Davis can't rebound, his height is meaningless. Shot-blocking wings don't have the same value as shot-blocking bigs, so if Bertans has to defend outside the paint, he won't be in position to block shots. He's mobile for a big, but not that mobile for a wing. So if the actual debate right now in the thread goes the way of the folks wanting Bertans to be a three and play on the perimeter, then he doesn't offer value, either to an archaic organization or a new-age one.

Can't blame Pop for this. He clearly loves him some stretch-fours. It's outright disingenuous to act like the Spurs are against shooting PFs. Davis has to do PF things to get the minutes though, not just shoot.

But he does, that's the thing. A simple Google search shows that Bertans is an impactful player that should be getting more minutes.

[Chinook]

But he does, that's the thing. A simple Google search shows that Bertans is an impactful player that should be getting more minutes.

No, he doesn't. That's actually the thing.

[DAF86]

Why do you keep averaging three years? He played plenty last year. This very thread talks about it. Pop gave him plenty of run when Bertans didn't play soft like he is now. But right now, Bertans isn't playing well. He is making mistakes. He's not grading out as an average defender this year. The team is struggling on the boards and not defending anyone with him this year. This year, the offense with him is worse with him on the court. This year's Bertans isn't playing well. That's why he's not getting minutes.

I'm using Bertans' entire career numbers because of sample size, but if you want, we can use this year's numbers.

Bertans BPM=2.8. The best mark on the entire team. Alongside DeRozan and Gasol the only three players to post positive numbers on this metric.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2019.html

[DAF86]

No, he doesn't. That's actually the thing.

Objective metrics say that he does.

[DAF86]

If you can't understand why Forbes is playing and not Bertans, I don't know what to tell you. It's really freaking obvious.

I'm not talking only about this season. I'm talking mostly about last season where Pop would rather play 3 or 4 guards lineups instead of playing Bertans.

This season too, I would rather see more Bertans and less Forbes/Mills pairings.


Anyways, Bryn has better impact stats than Davis does. No idea where you're getting contrary information.

Which impact stats?

[Chinook]

I'm using Bertans' entire career numbers because of sample size, but if you want, we can use this year's numbers.

Bertans BPM=2.8. The best mark on the entire team. Alongside DeRozan and Gasol the only three players to post positive numbers on this metric.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2019.html


Objective metrics say that he does.

This is where you run into bullshit. Bertans has awful on/offs, which are more stable and informative (especially right now) than BPM, which is just a statistical attempt to replicate RAPM. Right now, he's just coming in and shooting. That's an easy role to perform for him. That's why his individual marks are good. If you allow someone else to score, it doesn't really hurt your personal defensive rating. If you block a shot, your defensive rating gets boosted significantly more. If you make a three, you ORtg goes up. If you pass up a shot, the rating doesn't go down. Over a large sample size, BPM will shift a lot of that out. That's why plus-minus is a better stat than folks realize.

But in 78 minutes, it's not there yet. Despite whatever Bertans does, the Spurs are a bad defense with him and a less-bad defense without him. They're a good offense with him and a very good offense without him. That sample isn't definitive enough to say Bertans is good or bad, but it does explain why he's not playing. The team is just playing better ball without him. That's no one else's fault but his own.

[Chinook]

Which impact stats?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2019/on-off/

Should also be obviously why Bryn played so much last year with Parker, Murray and Green all missing time and Bryn out-shooting the rest of the team in a year where spacing was rare.

[kaji157]

This guy is on fire today 👆

[DAF86]

This is where you run into bullshit. Bertans has awful on/offs, which are more stable and informative (especially right now) than BPM, which is just a statistical attempt to replicate RAPM. Right now, he's just coming in and shooting. That's an easy role to perform for him. That's why his individual marks are good. If you allow someone else to score, it doesn't really hurt your personal defensive rating. If you block a shot, your defensive rating gets boosted significantly more. If you make a three, you ORtg goes up. If you pass up a shot, the rating doesn't go down. Over a large sample size, BPM will shift a lot of that out. That's why plus-minus is a better stat than folks realize.

But in 78 minutes, it's not there yet. Despite whatever Bertans does, the Spurs are a bad defense with him and a less-bad defense without him. They're a good offense with him and a very good offense without him. That sample isn't definitive enough to say Bertans is good or bad, but it does explain why he's not playing. The team is just playing better ball without him. That's no one else's fault but his own.

Well, that's why I used Bertans' entire career as sample. Season after season he proves to be a positive player, at some point you gotta look at that fact and realize that there might be something there.

[Chinook]

Well, that's why I used Bertans' entire career as sample. Season after season he proves to be a positive player, at some point you gotta look at that fact and realize that there might be something there.

The burden is on Bertans to play better, not on Pop to hope he does. This whole thread is testament to the fact that Bertans gets minutes when he plays well and doesn't when he plays poorly. For some reason, you've continued to interpret it in the irrational opposite way to assume that Bertans plays well when given minutes rather than him getting minutes when he plays well. The latter way is a case of actually managing a player well. The former would require Pop to constantly forget who's playing and overlook taking Bertans out despite apparently wanting to do so at the earliest opportunity.

[DAF86]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2019/on-off/

Should also be obviously why Bryn played so much last year with Parker, Murray and Green all missing time and Bryn out-shooting the rest of the team in a year where spacing was rare.

Over such a small sample size +/- it's a pretty shitty stat though. For example, Bertans offensive +/- numbers are all kinds of fucked up for playing garbage minutes alongside our third string scrubs.

[Chinook]

Over such a small sample size +/- it's a pretty shitty stat though. For example, Bertans offensive +/- numbers are all kinds of fucked up for playing garbage minutes alongside our third string scrubs.

Bert's on/offs are third-worst in the rotation behind Mills and Gasol. More likely that he's made players worse than they've made him worse.

[DAF86]

The burden is on Bertans to play better, not on Pop to hope he does. This whole thread is testament to the fact that Bertans gets minutes when he plays well and doesn't when he plays poorly. For some reason, you've continued to interpret it in the irrational opposite way to assume that Bertans plays well when given minutes rather than him getting minutes when he plays well. The latter way is a case of actually managing a player well. The former would require Pop to constantly forget who's playing and overlook taking Bertans out despite apparently wanting to do so at the earliest opportunity.

And who gets the burden when Mills does absolutely nothing but still gets 30 minutes?

Bertans has been playing just fine to get more minutes than he's getting, not just this season, but for the past 3 seasons. Pop just has a shorter leash with him than with other players, for some reason.

[Chinook]

And who gets the burden when Mills does absolutely nothing but still gets 30 minutes?

Can't use Mills as an excuse for everything.


Bertans has been playing just fine to get more minutes than he's getting, not just this season, but for the past 3 seasons. Pop just has a shorter leash with him than with other players, for some reason.

Another attempt at the same irrational interpretation. Bertans "plays so well" because when he doesn't play well, he's not in the game. He's constantly put in the best position to succeed. He excels in a situational role. I'm not against him getting minutes, but I understand why he gets benched.

[DAF86]

Can't use Mills as an excuse for everything.

I think this is the first time I mention Mills in 5 days or so.


Another attempt at the same irrational interpretation. Bertans "plays so well" because when he doesn't play well, he's not in the game. He's constantly put in the best position to succeed. He excels in a situational role. I'm not against him getting minutes, but I understand why he gets benched.

That's not how this works. The majority of the players that get "situational roles", don't post Bertans impact numbers.

[Chinook]

I think this is the first time I mention Mills in 5 days or so.

Doesn't matter. Mills has nothing to do with Bertans.


That's not how this works. The majority of the players that get "situational roles", don't post Bertans impact numbers.

You sure about that? Bonner always lead the team in impact stats. Regardless, it is the case with Bertans.

[DAF86]

Doesn't matter. Mills has nothing to do with Bertans.

It has to do with your premise of Pop handing out minutes because of merits though.


You sure about that? Bonner always lead the team in impact stats. Regardless, it is the case with Bertans.

First, Bonner always leading the team in impact stats is a lie. In fact, I doubt he ever did. Second, Bonner is just one example.

[Chinook]

It has to do with your premise of Pop handing out minutes because of merits though.

It's like wanting Pop to pay Simmons because he paid Mills. Bertans has to earn minutes from Pop even if Mills seemingly doesn't. No amount of bad play from Mills means Bertans should be allowed to play badly.


First, Bonner always leading the team in impact stats is a lie. In fact, I doubt he ever did. Second, Bonner is just one example.

It's not true in the very literal sense of Bonner leading the team in very impact stat every single season without fail. It is true in the sense that he had really good impact stats each year, to the point where folks would suggest that he invalidated the efficacy of those stats.

[SAGirl]

Is Davis trade ballast st this point? Pop obviously liked him he got paid a lot for a guy not getting minutes...
I am not sure what is going on with him.

(It seems Cunningham is making him less of a factor.)

[DAF86]

Folks can try to rationale this all they want, but Pondexter getting minutes over Bertans isn't justifiable, and it isn't on Bertans. Bertans hasn't played bad enough to warrant getting dog-house treatment in favour of a guy that looks like should be retired. It's clear that Pop has something particular with Davis. I'm not saying something personal, but something about Bertans' game that irks him in a special and odd way.

Now watch Bertans get some random minutes on the third where he obviously plays without any confidence whatsoever and folks using those minutes to justify Pop's decision.

[Chinook]

Folks can try to rationale this all they want, but Pondexter getting minutes over Bertans isn't justifiable.

It's easily justifiable. Bertans is guaranteed to be on the roster for at least a couple more months. Pon's guaranteed money is about to run out. Gotta give him some run before deciding how to handle his contract.

[skookumchuck]

It's easily justifiable. Bertans is guaranteed to be on the roster for at least a couple more months. Pon's guaranteed money is about to run out. Gotta give him some run before deciding how to handle his contract.

You easily use words like 'easily' when trying to make your point, yet there's no point of playing Pondexter outside of garbage time to see if he can even still jog up and down the court during an NBA game. Where as Davis, barring a trade, can and should be a rotation player. He's been playing poorly to start the season, especially given the fact that he has more tools than he's previously displayed for us and he obviously keeps on working on his game on both sides. But Pop's dead wrong on benching him like he has done, and if you thing that continuity doesn't affect some people(often, more talented than others) more than some, then you're dead wrong, too.

[DAF86]

Now watch Bertans get some random minutes on the third where he obviously plays without any confidence whatsoever and folks using those minutes to justify Pop's decision.

Called it.