The Last Dance documentary

[ambchang]

Jordan’s 3 percentage went up during the shortened line era and went back to a shitty 29% when the NBA went back to the regular 3 pt line :lmao


He was shooting in the mid 30s in 92-93. Not steph curry but it was decent especially in those days.

[FrostKing]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BadFirmCuckoo-max-1mb.gif

ambchang in this thread

[Neo.]

As the entire perimeter defense is changed?

Drexler Payton penny and hill are on the same level with the wades and pierces of the world.

Ever wonder why perimeter play is so dominant now? Rule changes.

we already been over this

everyone still handchecks

and what used to be illegal defenses now allows gameplans never allowed previously. Never heard TMac complain about being handchecked. But he wanted zone defense abolished because it stifled scoring.

can't just say that rule changes are the sole and only reason for better perimeter play, that's just ignorant and completely stupid.

[Neo.]

The point was that terry wasn’t much better than Starks or Ehlo and he outplayed Lebron whole Jordan destroyed the other two on a regular basis.

Starks made the all star team. Was strong on defense.

Terry was a good scorer.

Ehlo was a good defender and smart shooter.

They are all role players.

Hm well if he outplayed lebron who is a top 5 player ever, while the other guys got destroyed by a top 5 player ever, sounds like Terry > starks and ehlo

:toast thanks

[FrostKing]

Hm well if he outplayed lebron who is a top 5 player ever, while the other guys got destroyed by a top 5 player ever, sounds like Terry > starks and ehlo

:toast thanks
Lebron is a Top 5 player since the 1990s

Ever? Top 12

[Neo.]

Lebron is a Top 5 player since the 1990s

Ever? Top 12

literally retarded lol

[FrostKing]

literally retarded lol
For example Hakeem

James needs more than 1 extra title to be fully ahead

[Neo.]

For example Hakeem

James needs more than 1 extra title to be fully ahead

lol please explain this one

[FrostKing]

lol please explain this one
Hakeem's status is cemented. Lebron still has the potential to be regarded as the superior player.

Would I pick Lebron over Hakeem in a close out game tomorrow? At this moment no.

[lefty]

Hakeem > Joirdan

[Killakobe81]

Jordan’s three got progressively better later in his career.

It’s not like the three is such a disgustingly difficult shot to make for nbaers. Brook Lopez and Lamarcus Aldridge is getting better through time.

As for defense there are still the Marco bellenellis and James Hardens of the world. You guys make it sound like the league is covered with prime Kawhi.

Besides I still consider rodman and Pippen better than every single wing defender in the league today. And then there’s Gary Payton as well.

Sure but he was dominant without it and was gifted at attacking the rim, hitting the midrange etc. Just saying it's speculation... And if that was his only weakness even in 2019-2020 nba who cares? His PER, wins shares, offensive rating are all elite for almost any Era...

And yes there are crummy defenders in the modern NBA but the athleticism and all around skill level is higher. Doesn't mean it's better in loved the mid 80's and early 90's but most of the specialist types in the NBA that can only shoot are pretty much mocked (hello, Bryn Forbes) or regulated to Kyle Korver roles... In MJ Era those guys played significant roles and MJ abused them just like he did good defensive guys like DJ Majerle or Dumars...there is no need to be dishonest about it. Better superstar talent back then ...but three and D pace and space has regulated Shannon Brown types (no three some D) and Korver (3 and no D) to end of the bench... Korver would be a significant player at his current age in the 80s on the right team.

[FrostKing]

Hakeem > Joirdan
https://i.ibb.co/jHL8W9j/81-NXb-WRsv1-L-SL1500.jpg

[FrostKing]

Episode III and IV

I expect Rodman back story with Detroit Pistons journey. I want to see Jordan in the locker room especially after playoff loses. The building blocks of what was molded into a Bully in the Eastern Conference

Episode Four is Phil. Not discussed here but debating with Bull fans, some agree that this doc is too hard on Krause. Phil successfully built an 'us vs them' rivalry between the players and Management. Bulls acquired Kukoc, Harper, Kerr, and Longley in 1993+, thus the franchise was still on the upswing thanks to Krause.

[Neo.]

Hakeem's status is cemented. Lebron still has the potential to be regarded as the superior player.

Would I pick Lebron over Hakeem in a close out game tomorrow? At this moment no.

please explain how more than 1 additional championship is what would cement lebron over hakeem

[lefty]

https://i.ibb.co/jHL8W9j/81-NXb-WRsv1-L-SL1500.jpg

:lol that’s rich coming from the guy who is bent on defending 1 player all the time

[FrostKing]

please explain how more than 1 additional championship is what would cement lebron over hakeem
Eye test

Hakeem had the more dominant peak and was better defensively.
Like I stated, LeBron still has the possibility to firmly over jump Hakeem but until he does so...

[lefty]

Episode III and IV

I expect Rodman back story with Detroit Pistons journey. I want to see Jordan in the locker room especially after playoff loses. The building blocks of what was molded into a Bully in the Eastern Conference

Episode Four is Phil. Not discussed here but debating with Bull fans, some agree that this doc is too hard on Krause. Phil successfully built an 'us vs them' rivalry between the players and Management. Bulls acquired Kukoc, Harper, Kerr, and Longley in 1993+, thus the franchise was still on the upswing thanks to Krause.

Yeah they are too harsh on him
I feel bad for his family dude is dead and they are still pounding on him

Jordan and Jackson are certified pieces of shit

[FrostKing]

Yeah they are too harsh on him
I feel bad for his family dude is dead and they are still pounding on him

Jordan and Jackson are certified pieces of shit
Maybe I wasn't paying attention but I feel you've been holding this in. Good for you let it all out.


https://youtu.be/iLFwTqdsuxw

[Dirks_Finale]

Hakeem's status is cemented. Lebron still has the potential to be regarded as the superior player.

Would I pick Lebron over Hakeem in a close out game tomorrow? At this moment no.

This.

Hakeem obliterating MVP D-rob in 1995 did it for me. His back to back is more impressive than Lebron's accomplishments, TBH. Didn't ring chase by leaving to build super friends teams....even won it all as a damn 6 seed.

[lefty]

This.

Hakeem obliterating MVP D-rob in 1995 did it for me. His back to back is more impressive than Lebron's accomplishments, TBH. Didn't ring chase by leaving to build super friends teams....even won it all as a damn 6 seed.

But it wasn’t as easy to go switch teams

Jordan and any other ringless star would have pulled the trigger if they could

[Neo.]

Eye test

Hakeem had the more dominant peak and was better defensively.
Like I stated, LeBron still has the possibility to firmly over jump Hakeem but until he does so...

rofl ok so basically you dont know what youre talking about

[FrostKing]

rofl ok so basically you dont know what youre talking about
Formulate a counter point before you @ again.

[Neo.]

Formulate a counter point before you @ again.

there's no counter point needed. you literally had no point.

[FrostKing]

there's no counter point needed. you literally had no point.
Still no counter point

I'll see you during our show buddy

[Dirks_Finale]

But it wasn’t as easy to go switch teams

Jordan and any other ringless star would have pulled the trigger if they could

Valid point on it being more difficult to bolt.

But Jordan was incredibly loyal to Phil. Plus, beating your rivals, not joining them, was a thing back then. Can't see him pulling a Lebron.

[lefty]

Valid point on it being more difficult to bolt.

But Jordan was incredibly loyal to Phil. Plus, beating your rivals, not joining them, was a thing back then. Can't see him pulling a Lebron.
He wasn’t going to bolt on Phil, that team was good lol
But if he could have during his first seasons he would have; he was constantly throwing the FO under the bus

When Lebron joined Miami, Jordan said he wouldn’t have done it but then he paused and say : “but it’s a possibility these kids have today...”

Can’t blame Lebron for bolting tbh

[FrostKing]

He wasn’t going to bolt on Phil, that team was good lol
But if he could have during his first seasons he would have; he was constantly throwing the FO under the bus

When Lebron joined Miami, Jordan said he wouldn’t have done it but then he paused and say : “but it’s a possibility these kids have today...”

Can’t blame Lebron for bolting tbh
I do not judge him for leaving. His performance in Miami is just supbar.

James winning in LA (or any other city) would be impressive. Put James into the GOAT conversation for me because he would have guided three separate cities.

[Dirks_Finale]

Forget Jordan for a moment, would Larry or Magic have done it? Would Isaiah team up with those guys to try and take down Jordan? I don't see it in any scenario. That wasn't the mentality then.


He wasn’t going to bolt on Phil, that team was good lol
But if he could have during his first seasons he would have; he was constantly throwing the FO under the bus

When Lebron joined Miami, Jordan said he wouldn’t have done it but then he paused and say : “but it’s a possibility these kids have today...”

Can’t blame Lebron for bolting tbh

[Dirks_Finale]

I do not judge him for leaving. His performance in Miami is just supbar.
.

I don't either-- it's how he did it that makes him look like a total d-bag.

Durbeta pretty much topped everyone with the ultimate, feminine sports moment of the century by going to GSW. Dwarfing Lebron's decision and virtually erasing it from our memories.

[FrostKing]

As I have became more of a conservative in life and career, it drew me to MJ. He is college educated conservative black southern.

[ambchang]

we already been over this

everyone still handchecks

and what used to be illegal defenses now allows gameplans never allowed previously. Never heard TMac complain about being handchecked. But he wanted zone defense abolished because it stifled scoring.

can't just say that rule changes are the sole and only reason for better perimeter play, that's just ignorant and completely stupid.

And yet all offences went from inside to outside.

[ambchang]

Hm well if he outplayed lebron who is a top 5 player ever, while the other guys got destroyed by a top 5 player ever, sounds like Terry > starks and ehlo

:toast thanks

Or maybe Lebron had a black mark in his career.

Just like Jordan couldn’t get through pistons until expansion broke them apart is a black mark in his career.

Difference is that you had to speak in absolutes and that somehow believe players suddenly got some type of genetic mutation that allowed them to become much better perimeter players.

[ambchang]

Sure but he was dominant without it and was gifted at attacking the rim, hitting the midrange etc. Just saying it's speculation... And if that was his only weakness even in 2019-2020 nba who cares? His PER, wins shares, offensive rating are all elite for almost any Era...

And yes there are crummy defenders in the modern NBA but the athleticism and all around skill level is higher. Doesn't mean it's better in loved the mid 80's and early 90's but most of the specialist types in the NBA that can only shoot are pretty much mocked (hello, Bryn Forbes) or regulated to Kyle Korver roles... In MJ Era those guys played significant roles and MJ abused them just like he did good defensive guys like DJ Majerle or Dumars...there is no need to be dishonest about it. Better superstar talent back then ...but three and D pace and space has regulated Shannon Brown types (no three some D) and Korver (3 and no D) to end of the bench... Korver would be a significant player at his current age in the 80s on the right team.

I don’t necessarily agree with all this. Lou Williams is a scoring speciality ang he’s getting better in the new era. Hi reddick has been going strong in the new era. I’d say due to the new defensive rules it’s less important to be good on d. Sure the true turnstiles can’t play in this era but they couldn’t play in any era to begin with. Andrew gaze never made it. Oscar Schmidt never made it.

The most impact is actually on big stiffs in this era as bigs have to be mobile on the perimeter, something which wasn’t necessary I years past.

[lefty]

Forget Jordan for a moment, would Larry or Magic have done it? Would Isaiah team up with those guys to try and take down Jordan? I don't see it in any scenario. That wasn't the mentality then.

No because they were already on stacked teams

As for Magic specifically, he said that if the Bulls drafted him instead of thr Lakers in 79, he would stay 1 more year in college because he wanted to play with Kareem in Los Angeles.
(As opposed to try to build something in Chicago)

Ultimately L.A drafted him

But yeah,

Magic wanted to team up

[ambchang]

I personally think it’s silly to think players didn't bolt because “this is the way”. What the hell is this? Mandalorian?

How convenient for Lee Alcindor waiting to join a large city that embraced the Muslim community when he chose the second most storied franchise at that point?

Magic went on record to say he didn’t want to play for the bulls.

Kobe forced the trade to LA

Shaq quit Orlando the second he hand the chance.

Steve Franck’s forced his way out of Vancouver.

Carter left Toronto, so did stoudemire and bosh

Face it, no player wants to carry a crap team to the promised land the most difficult way possible, and most players want to go to a big market.

[Killakobe81]

I don’t necessarily agree with all this. Lou Williams is a scoring speciality ang he’s getting better in the new era. Hi reddick has been going strong in the new era. I’d say due to the new defensive rules it’s less important to be good on d. Sure the true turnstiles can’t play in this era but they couldn’t play in any era to begin with. Andrew gaze never made it. Oscar Schmidt never made it.

The most impact is actually on big stiffs in this era as bigs have to be mobile on the perimeter, something which wasn’t necessary I years past.

Thats disrespectful to Sweet Lou who can't play defense, but is an all around fine scorer not just a spot up shooter...plus he is a decent play maker when not hunting shots he is way more valuable overall than Reddick korver or the Wedman types of yesteryear

[FrostKing]

Rodman > Lebron

At this rate

[140]

GOAT doc tbh

[lefty]

:lol cool but it further proves how shitty the 80s-90s were tbh

[FrostKing]

I had a feeling episodes 3 & 4 would eclipse #1/2 and they did

DA BULLS!

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1254609361860726784

[HarlemHeat37]

As much as I dislike Jordan, it's a great doc. These first 4 are the worst episodes, too, it only gets better later IMO.

They get into Jordan's actions killing his father and his goal to primarily appeal to Caucasians in the next 2 episodes.

[Dirks_Finale]

I personally think it’s silly to think players didn't bolt because “this is the way”. What the hell is this? Mandalorian?

How convenient for Lee Alcindor waiting to join a large city that embraced the Muslim community when he chose the second most storied franchise at that point?

Magic went on record to say he didn’t want to play for the bulls.

Kobe forced the trade to LA

Shaq quit Orlando the second he hand the chance.

Steve Franck’s forced his way out of Vancouver.

Carter left Toronto, so did stoudemire and bosh

Face it, no player wants to carry a crap team to the promised land the most difficult way possible, and most players want to go to a big market.

With the exception of Rodman who was merely using a gimmick of supposed bisexuality to profit from it, guys back then were just more macho. There was ego involved and it was about beating the pistons, not joining them. Today they are metrosexual, wear skinny jeans and are offended by everything.

Another factor is the sense of loyalty that existed to the city and fans. And it's something that spilled over into the next era as Duncan and Dirk never even entertained the idea of leaving...Sorry, but Tim was never going to Orlando, it was a power play move. The game evolved and players came to the stark realization that the owners are not loyal to you, so take care of yourself.

[Dirks_Finale]

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1254609361860726784

Overall it's been excellent. Seriously, I am watching it and the next thing I know, the credits are rolling and it's over. Feels like each episode lasts like 5 minutes. No dull moments.

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/espn/status/1254614206487429134

[Pelicans78]

LOL lefty with the Ls in this thread.

[lefty]

With the exception of Rodman who was merely using a gimmick of supposed bisexuality to profit from it, guys back then were just more macho. There was ego involved and it was about beating the pistons, not joining them. Today they are metrosexual, wear skinny jeans and are offended by everything.

Another factor is the sense of loyalty that existed to the city and fans. And it's something that spilled over into the next era as Duncan and Dirk never even entertained the idea of leaving...Sorry, but Tim was never going to Orlando, it was a power play move. The game evolved and players came to the stark realization that the owners are not loyal to you, so take care of yourself.
I have a bridge to sell you

[lefty]

LOL lefty with the Ls in this thread.
:lol sorry to burst your bubble
Truth hurts but you will eventually accept that the NBA is better today

[MultiTroll]

Forget Jordan for a moment, would Larry or Magic have done it? Would Isaiah team up with those guys to try and take down Jordan? I don't see it in any scenario. That wasn't the mentality then.
Larry had great players around him and the FO kept em coming with trades and drafts.
Magic had the same along every conceivable advantage.

If Bird lost Parish and McHale to cancer and Magic lost Kream and Worthy to AIDs would they then consider going to another team with a super star in place?
Yes.

[Pelicans78]

:lol sorry to burst your bubble
Truth hurts but you will eventually accept that the NBA is better today

The NBA is shittier than ever. It may have been flawed back then but it’s not any better now with small ball, everyone shooting threes, big men with no offensive game and only used in pick n rolls offensively and rim protection on defense, super teams, low ratings, Trae Young an All-Star lol, guys faking injuries for a whole season because they hate where they play. Plenty of more examples of how shitty the league still is, but I don’t have all night to post it.

[Dirks_Finale]

Let's imagine Lebron playing all those years vs bad boy pistons and Larry's Celtics. Does he make it out of the eastern conference even once? Very likely he tries to team up with Tim Duncan out west. And recruit like 3 other big names to join him. Always crying for more help.

[Dirks_Finale]

I have a bridge to sell you

Did you build it using all Lebron's bricks in the finals?

[Dirks_Finale]

:lol sorry to burst your bubble
Truth hurts but you will eventually accept that the NBA is better today

:lol

[lefty]

Did you build it using all Lebron's bricks in the finals?

Good one

[lefty]

Let's imagine Lebron playing all those years vs bad boy pistons and Larry's Celtics. Does he make it out of the eastern conference even once? Very likely he tries to team up with Tim Duncan out west. And recruit like 3 other big names to join him. Always crying for more help.

Jordan won jack and shit before Pippen , Phil Jackson, Celtiics / Lakers getting older and beat up and Stern changing the rules for Demar DeJordan

[Pelicans78]

Lebron won jack before DWade, Kobe/Shaq couldn’t win without Phil, KD couldn’t win without the Warriors, the Warriors couldn’t beat a healthy Cavs team, begged to KD to come. All this stuff is nothing new. Today’s NBA is as bad as baseball.

[FrostKing]

Let's imagine Lebron playing all those years vs bad boy pistons and Larry's Celtics. Does he make it out of the eastern conference even once? Very likely he tries to team up with Tim Duncan out west. And recruit like 3 other big names to join him. Always crying for more help.
The East was North-East focused. You also had Barkley in Philadelphia.

East had Bird vs Dr.J to the thank for the hard play setting the tone.


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mKjGFuaxL._AC_.jpg

[FrostKing]

Bulls. Such Excellence. Our 1920's Bronx Bombers. I was in the middle school when 90s occurred

[lefty]

Lebron won jack before DWade, Kobe/Shaq couldn’t win without Phil, KD couldn’t win without the Warriors, the Warriors couldn’t beat a healthy Cavs team, begged to KD to come. All this stuff is nothing new. Today’s NBA is as bad as baseball.

Lebron took a shitty Cavs teams to the Finals, MJ could never

Lebron also faced better teams in the Finals than Jordan did

[Pelicans78]

Lebron took a shitty Cavs teams to the Finals, MJ could never

Lebron also faced better teams in the Finals than Jordan did

That shitty Cavs team wouldn’t have competed with the Eastern powers in the 80s. Those Pistons Lebron beat were a shell of themselves especially with Ben Wallace gone.

Lebron couldn’t beat the Magic lol. Lebron let Dwight Howard outplay him in that series lol. Losing to the Mavs after joining with Wade/Bosh. On his 4th team now because he’s miserable just like most of today’s stars.

[FrostKing]

Lebron took a shitty Cavs teams to the Finals, MJ could never

Lebron also faced better teams in the Finals than Jordan did
What is your obsession with Lebron? Anti-Kobe/MJ?

[FrostKing]

MJ destroying Isaiah. Brutal.

And MJ is right he kissed ass 3 losses in a row

[lefty]

That shitty Cavs team wouldn’t have competed with the Eastern powers in the 80s. Those Pistons Lebron beat were a shell of themselves especially with Ben Wallace gone.

Lebron couldn’t beat the Magic lol. Lebron let Dwight Howard outplay him in that series lol. Losing to the Mavs after joining with Wade/Bosh. On his 4th team now because he’s miserable just like most of today’s stars.

The East was crap when Jordan got there

[lefty]

MJ destroying Isaiah. Brutal.

And MJ is right he kissed ass 3 losses in a row
I guess he was mad a midget destroyed him for 3 straight seasons

Demar Dejordan is a salty spiteful bald dude, nothing new

[LakerHater]

https://abs.twimg.com/hashflags/TheLastDance2020/TheLastDance2020.png

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron took a shitty Cavs teams to the Finals, MJ could never

Lebron also faced better teams in the Finals than Jordan did

You are referring to 2007. Lebrons major accomplishment that year was beating a declining pistons team. If you don't think Jordan could have done the same then I will be selling your bridge back to you lol.

And btw, that Lebron in that series looked Jordan-esque. Refused to lose. But then after that series he lost to soft Dwight in 2009 and got outscored by a bench player in the 2011 Finals. Things that would have never happened to Jordan.

[basquetbol]

Who was LeBron playing in the East?

:lol Gilbert Arenas
:lol Jason Kidd Nets

show me which of those teams were as Good as the Celtics and Pistons?

What does LeBron James have to do with Jordan having a playoff record of 1-9, never making it out of the first round before Pippen, an all time great defender became a Bull? Jordan couldn't be bothered to win two games in ten chances. The greatest ever could not put his team on his back and will them to victory, winning two games out of ten?

[lefty]

You are referring to 2007. Lebrons major accomplishment that year was beating a declining pistons team. If you don't think Jordan could have done the same then I will be selling your bridge back to you lol.

And btw, that Lebron in that series looked Jordan-esque. Refused to lose. But then after that series he lost to soft Dwight in 2009 and got outscored by a bench player in the 2011 Finals. Things that would have never happened to Jordan.
:lol Jordan got outscored by Jehovah Witness Danny Ainge in an elimination game

:lol That’s worse

[lefty]

The NBA is shittier than ever. It may have been flawed back then but it’s not any better now with small ball, everyone shooting threes, big men with no offensive game and only used in pick n rolls offensively and rim protection on defense, super teams, low ratings, Trae Young an All-Star lol, guys faking injuries for a whole season because they hate where they play. Plenty of more examples of how shitty the league still is, but I don’t have all night to post it.
Well to be fair back in the days the game favoured big men more than perimeter players, today it’s the other way around, so fair is fair.

And super teams have always existed

There hasn’t any been balance so far, the NBA has to figure it out

I do agree on Trae Young though, stat padder with a WNBA shooting form :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

XWLseQTDLdw

Nigga got worked over by a prison muscle power bottom

[Michael Jordan.]

Made this nigga look like he had a post game

[Michael Jordan.]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/94443366_4163970050294977_1768512110511259648_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQk66OnJgnvnRdtnDl0myOSyo5Z8oMsqVxr2Lln9Hww xbvnX0qT4u24AeUO0MmUPA8EB7EyfBDStkuMv3OTZEsCh&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&_nc_tp=14&oh=a3c35a58400eb00c1ebe3ef4cf7a2db0&oe=5ECCB7DC:lmao beating to 41-41 teams and considering that dragging his team anywhere

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron failed to beat a guy like Dwight who apparently likes to get his cheekbones blowed out.

SAAWFT era. And it's only gotten worse and turned into scrimmages instead of actual basketball games.


:lol Jordan got outscored by Jehovah Witness Danny Ainge in an elimination game

:lol That’s worse

[lefty]

Lebron failed to beat a guy like Dwight who apparently likes to get his cheekbones blowed out.

SAAWFT era. And it's only gotten worse and turned into scrimmages instead of actual basketball games.

At least Dwight was athletic :lol

:lol Ainge wouldn’t even make a HS team today

[Michael Jordan.]

At least Dwight was athletic :lol

:lol Ainge wouldn’t even make a HS team today
And Dwight Had no skills. Just dunking. And still waxed LeBron’s ass. Lest we Forget LeBron’s defense that series. All Orlando’s wings shot damn near 50 percent from 3. Lol LeBron

[Michael Jordan.]

At least Dwight was athletic :lol

:lol Ainge wouldn’t even make a HS team today
And Dwight Had no skills. Just dunking. And still waxed LeBron’s ass. Lest we Forget LeBron’s defense that series. All Orlando’s wings shot damn near 50 percent from 3. Lol LeBron

[Michael Jordan.]

:lmao 2007 East only had two 50 win teams, and one team under .500 making the playoffs

[Michael Jordan.]

Damn. Bron shot 41% from the floor and 28% from three that 07 playoff “run” :lmao

[Neo.]

And yet all offences went from inside to outside.


Or maybe Lebron had a black mark in his career.

Just like Jordan couldn’t get through pistons until expansion broke them apart is a black mark in his career.

Difference is that you had to speak in absolutes and that somehow believe players suddenly got some type of genetic mutation that allowed them to become much better perimeter players.

I literally never said anything along those lines at all. While you are the one who has repeatedly said that the sole reason for the league to be more perimeter oriented is due to rule changes. That's been the only absolute in our entire debate about this. I've said many times that rule changes absolutely had an influence, it just wasn't the sole influence, and imo not even the main influence. The main influence was everyone wanting to "be like Mike". Then players and coaches realized that running every offense through the post might actually not be the most effective offense. There were a number of different factors that led to it, not just rule changes.

[ambchang]

Thats disrespectful to Sweet Lou who can't play defense, but is an all around fine scorer not just a spot up shooter...plus he is a decent play maker when not hunting shots he is way more valuable overall than Reddick korver or the Wedman types of yesteryear

Sure but he’s still a one dimensional player. Can he be a decent play maker? Sure. Is he? No. He’s a chucker.

[ambchang]

I literally never said anything along those lines at all. While you are the one who has repeatedly said that the sole reason for the league to be more perimeter oriented is due to rule changes. That's been the only absolute in our entire debate about this. I've said many times that rule changes absolutely had an influence, it just wasn't the sole influence, and imo not even the main influence. The main influence was everyone wanting to "be like Mike". Then players and coaches realized that running every offense through the post might actually not be the most effective offense. There were a number of different factors that led to it, not just rule changes.

I said it was the main reason. Not sole reason.m
And yes everybody wanted to be like mike so the league changed the rules to speed that up.
Check the year the perimeter illegal rules changed (00-01). Pretty much all notable perimeter player had a major increase in scoring that year. Stackhouse, Pierce, Iverson, Kobe, tmac, carter, Allen. 7 of the top ten scorers that year were wing players and 1 of the remaining 3 bigs are known to operate in the perimeter (Antawn Jamison) only Shaq (monster) and Weber (still has terrific perimeter skills) were true bigs.

The previous year? Only 5 out of the top 10.

So it’s pretty obvious the rule changes had a huge impact on perimeter scoring.

[lefty]

And Dwight Had no skills. Just dunking. And still waxed LeBron’s ass. Lest we Forget LeBron’s defense that series. All Orlando’s wings shot damn near 50 percent from 3. Lol LeBron
Well he was still the best Center in the NBA back then

[Dirks_Finale]

Oh come on. He's a fiery version of Kyle Korver who made an all star team this past decade.


At least Dwight was athletic :lol

:lol Ainge wouldn’t even make a HS team today

[FrostKing]

Oh come on. He's a fiery version of Kyle Korver who made an all star team this past decade.
Ainge a little better than Korver. Their two highest scoring seasons - Korver 14 & 12 and Ainge - 18 & 17

[lefty]

:lmao that dumbass David Aldridge saying no one before Scottie picked Magic full court

[Dirks_Finale]

Not only that, dude could get under anyone's skin which is an underrated asset...
Ainge a little better than Korver. Their two highest scoring seasons - Korver 14 & 12 and Ainge - 18 & 17

[Killakobe81]

Sure but he’s still a one dimensional player. Can he be a decent play maker? Sure. Is he? No. He’s a chucker.

Trez would disagree he has fed him some ray dunks... He does shoot to much but they have developed a nice pnr game.

[Michael Jordan.]

Well he was still the best Center in the NBA back then
LeBron got his ass waxed by a nigga who grabs other men’s crotches

[dbreiden83080]

Loving the Doc so far.. The Jordan GOAT Talk does get annoying with the whole 6/6 titles argument.. Lets be honest, Jordan did get lucky to play in the 90's.. Because in the 80's you had the 76ers, Celts, Lakers, Pistons all historically great teams playing in the decade. By 1990 all those teams got old.. Ewing and the Knicks, Reggie and the Pacers, Barkley and the Suns, Blazers with Clyde, not the same..

[Neo.]

Pretty much all notable perimeter player had a major increase in scoring that year. Stackhouse, Pierce, Iverson, Kobe, tmac, carter, Allen.

:lmao yeah im sure it had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were all in the first five years of their career and had no natural growth as players, or had nothing to do with coaches recognizing their development and giving them an even more increased role in the offense

[FrostKing]

Loving the Doc so far.. The Jordan GOAT Talk does get annoying with the whole 6/6 titles argument.. Lets be honest, Jordan did get lucky to play in the 90's.. Because in the 80's you had the 76ers, Celts, Lakers, Pistons all historically great teams playing in the decade. By 1990 all those teams got old.. Ewing and the Knicks, Reggie and the Pacers, Barkley and the Suns, Blazers with Clyde, not the same..
If Jordan didn't exist then Ewing has atleast 1 ring, same with Barkley and Malone might have a few. Shaq possibly remains in Orlando.

I think a specific couple teams were above and beyond - 1986 Celtics or 1987 Lakers but I am not sure the rest should be considered superior. Maybe the East as a whole was stronger

[ambchang]

Trez would disagree he has fed him some ray dunks... He does shoot to much but they have developed a nice pnr game.

That’s why I said he can but he just isn’t.

His game reminds me of vinnie Johnson. Just that Lou can actually play make but chose not to while vinnie can’t even do it properly.

[ambchang]

:lmao yeah im sure it had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were all in the first five years of their career and had no natural growth as players, or had nothing to do with coaches recognizing their development and giving them an even more increased role in the offense

SHow me a single other year where all perimeter or inside players suddenly has a dramatic increase in scoring.

And first five years? Is that some sort of magic cut off? How did you come up with five years?

And you need a few more emojis to cover you just ignoring the rest of the post.

[lefty]

If Jordan didn't exist then Ewing has atleast 1 ring, same with Barkley and Malone might have a few. Shaq possibly remains in Orlando.

I think a specific couple teams were above and beyond - 1986 Celtics or 1987 Lakers but I am not sure the rest should be considered superior. Maybe the East as a whole was stronger

If Stern didn’t exist other players would have a ring

[FrostKing]

If Stern didn’t exist other players would have a ring
Stern had a vicious post game

[dbreiden83080]

If Jordan didn't exist then Ewing has atleast 1 ring, same with Barkley and Malone might have a few. Shaq possibly remains in Orlando.

I think a specific couple teams were above and beyond - 1986 Celtics or 1987 Lakers but I am not sure the rest should be considered superior. Maybe the East as a whole was stronger

Ewing who I loved had 2 years with no Jordan in the way, and still did not get it done. Needed 7 and a bad call to beat the Bulls in 94..

[lefty]

Ewing who I loved had 2 years with no Jordan in the way, and still did not get it done. Needed 7 and a bad call to beat the Bulls in 94..

Cool the refs helped Jordan vs NY in 92 amd 93

[FrostKing]

Cool the refs helped Jordan vs NY in 92 amd 93
:lol

Everyone is aware of your narrative

[lefty]

:lol

Everyone is aware of your narrative
I know it’s hatd to accept your idol was really a flawed manufactured star
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug :lol

[Neo.]

SHow me a single other year where all perimeter or inside players suddenly has a dramatic increase in scoring.

nope, don't care enough to research it tbh. you win this one :toast to your victory. congrats, you have apparently proven that rule changes are bar none the biggest reason perimeter play is superior these days, as it is based off of the stats of young developing star perimeter players who's stats improved. and it certainly accounts for the fact that some of the players you mentioned actually had bigger increases in scoring in previous years, or that ray allen actually had a scoring decrease the year of the rule change even though you claimed he had a "major" and "dramatic" increase. job well done sir.


And first five years? Is that some sort of magic cut off? How did you come up with five years?

the point was it was still early in their careers, a time when players have still not reached their prime and we're still developing as players. oops sorry it was stacks 6th year :rolleyes


And you need a few more emojis to cover you just ignoring the rest of the post.

um ok? :lmao :lmao :lmao enjoy

[ambchang]

If Stern didn’t exist other players would have a ring

:lol. Funny because it’s true.

[ambchang]

nope, don't care enough to research it tbh. you win this one :toast to your victory. congrats, you have apparently proven that rule changes are bar none the biggest reason perimeter play is superior these days, as it is based off of the stats of young developing star perimeter players who's stats improved. and it certainly accounts for the fact that some of the players you mentioned actually had bigger increases in scoring in previous years, or that ray allen actually had a scoring decrease the year of the rule change even though you claimed he had a "major" and "dramatic" increase. job well done sir.



the point was it was still early in their careers, a time when players have still not reached their prime and we're still developing as players. oops sorry it was stacks 6th year :rolleyes



um ok? :lmao :lmao :lmao enjoy

Your emojis are tough to argue against.

And your passive aggressive response is even harder.

That said, we all know that a bunch of half a dozen perimeter players who entered the league at different times and are at different ages all suddenly decided to increase their scoring average by half a dozen points all in the same year. Just because. And it just happens to coincide with one of the most significant perimeter rule changes in the last thirty years. When a player like Marbury, in his seventh year in the league would get a career high inpojnts with a two point jump from the previous year. Similar to Glenn Robinson. Or jalen rose. Or nick van exel. Jason kidd.

Was it universal for every perimeter player? Of course not. But the trend was quite clear.

[dbreiden83080]

Cool the refs helped Jordan vs NY in 92 amd 93

Charles Smith made a fucking layup in 93 Knicks at least have a game 7 at MSG..

[lefty]

Charles Smith made a fucking layup in 93 Knicks at least have a game 7 at MSG..

Doesn’t excuse all the bailing out

[Neo.]

And your passive aggressive response is even harder.

rofl you of all people crying about passive aggressive responses


That said, we all know that a bunch of half a dozen perimeter players who entered the league at different times and are at different ages all suddenly decided to increase their scoring average by half a dozen points all in the same year. Just because.

Kobe - 96 draft - 22yo - 6 ppg jump
Iverson - 96 draft - 25yo - 2.7 ppg jump
Pierce - 98 draft - 23yo - 5.8 ppg jump
McGrady - 97 draft - 21yo - 11.4 ppg jump
Carter - 98 draft - 24yo - 1.9 ppg increase
Stackhouse - 95 draft - 26yo - 6.2 ppg increase
Allen - 96 draft - 25yo - 0.1 ppg decrease

seems like some pretty inconsistent increases, certainly not all a half dozen point increases. and yes, they all entered at such different times, pretty much all within the same 3 year span, all of whom were in development stages of their career as they were still in the first 5 years of their long HOF careers, with the exception of stackhouse who came a whopping 1 year earlier and wasnt quite HOF material like the rest but still a very talented scorer. oh and their ages were all still fairly young and generally close as well.

regardless

im certain tmacs increase had nothing to do with leaving a team that already had vince carter on the wing scoring 26 a game, and going to a team where he could be the #1 scoring option, especially after Grant Hill's career was basically ruined due to injury

speaking of grant hill, im sure his departure from detroit, losing his 26 ppg, and not replacing him with another strong scorer didn't have much effect on why stackhouse's scoring increased

of course the departure of glen rice also couldn't have had any bearing on kobes scoring increase either

iverson had the wonderful pleasure of playing with toni kukoc and larry hughes, a couple decent wing scorers. but hughes was traded away late in the previous year, while kukoc was traded halfway through the 00-01 year. nah, im sure each of their 10-12 ppg contributions didn't need to be replaced by AI taking a couple extra shots. it was definitely the rule changes that helped AI score 2.7 more ppg.

and we've clearly established that its far too illogical to think an exceptionally talented scorer like paul pierce could have a massive scoring increase in his third year in the league, as he has been developing as a player and the coach decided to give him a bigger share of offense

so yep, the single biggest reason for the scoring increases can only logically be chalked up to the rule changes. well done.

[dbreiden83080]

I saw Thomas on ESPN, and he still doesn’t understand why so many players from that time, Fucking hated his guts. Still hate his guts. Clueless. He was classless then. And he still is now. His excuse for not shaking hands is complete bullshit. Just shake their fucking hands and walk off the court like a champion you idiot.

[Dirks_Finale]

I saw Thomas on ESPN, and he still doesn’t understand why so many players from that time, Fucking hated his guts. Still hate his guts. Clueless. He was classless then. And he still is now. His excuse for not shaking hands is complete bullshit. Just shake their fucking hands and walk off the court like a champion you idiot.

He's such a dirt bag. He even tries to take credit for the 2nd bulls three peat because they had Rodman and 2 detroit scrubs on their roster. As if that was some sort springboard that catapulted them to the title. Nevermind that they had already won 3 without a Detroit influence on their team.

And he is more educated now and attempts to make his baloney sound more palatable and intellectual. Sorry, we already know who you are.

[lefty]

Oh please

Jordan was not any better
Bird has esteanged kids

Actually they are probably worse thsn Thomas

Isiah is the one who convinced other all stars that Magic should play in the 92 ASG when most players were afraid to get anywhere near him

The « Jordan Freeze » game? That was such BS, watch the game and you can see Isiah was actually trying to involve MJ.
Besodes, Demar DeJordan was a rookie, he wasn’t going to get a lot of touches that night

The walk off? :lol at people who talk about respect, especially DemarcDeJordan.
Up 3-0 , knowing Detroit was done, the Bulls badmouthed the Pistons in the press.
Pistons were dirty, I get that, but they were still the 2 time defending champs.
If Isiah shook hands with those hypocrites that would have been the ultimate cuck move

The truth is that Demar DeJordan is salty that he got his ass handed to him by a midget 3 straight years on national TV :lol

But they won’t show that in TLD because insecure salty Jordan decided what footage made the cut :lol

[FrostKing]

Oh please

Jordan was not any better
Bird has esteanged kids

Actually they are probably worse thsn Thomas

Isiah is the one who convinced other all stars that Magic should play in the 92 ASG when most players were afraid to get anywhere near him

The « Jordan Freeze » game? That was such BS, watch the game and you can see Isiah was actually trying to involve MJ.
Besodes, Demar DeJordan was a rookie, he wasn’t going to get a lot of touches that night

The walk off? :lol at people who talk about respect, especially DemarcDeJordan.
Up 3-0 , knowing Detroit was done, the Bulls badmouthed the Pistons in the press.
Pistons were dirty, I get that, but they were still the 2 time defending champs.
If Isiah shook hands with those hypocrites that would have been the ultimate cuck move

The truth is that Demar DeJordan is salty that he got his ass handed to him by a midget 3 straight years on national TV :lol

But they won’t show that in TLD because insecure salty Jordan decided what footage made the cut :lol
Pistons probably thought they would be back to contend. Instead they were out of the league within a few seasons.

That humbled most except Laimbeer. Bad Boys did not age well and their 2-peat is arguably underrated considering their '88 performance

[lefty]

Pistons probably thought they would be back to contend. Instead they were out of the league within a few seasons.

That humbled most except Laimbeer. Bad Boys did not age well and their 2-peat is arguably underrated considering their '88 performance
Yeah I think they should have won in 88
Fuck that injury abd that suspicious call at the end of gane 6

[JamStone]

I’m obviously biased, but anyway...

Isiah was wrong for walking out, kind of. But the Michael comments the night before do give context. Michael did interviews before game 4 saying smugly the Pistons were bad for basketball and did not deserve to ever be champions, insulting the team, the players, the city. That obviously didn’t sit well with the Pistons. And why would it? A person bad mouths you, calls you names, discredits your value, then beats your ass, and you’re supposed to play nice? Oh, are they not supposed to be the “bad boys” anymore? When they lose, they should act like good guys? Makes sense. No not really.

Also often ignored is that a couple Pistons players actually did shake hands. I believe guys like Dumars and Salley... I think. Not positive who for sure, but a couple did. Doesn’t get mentioned the way “oh but McHale shook Isiah’s hand” does.

Sure Isiah was bitter. And sure he probably should still have been the bigger person and congratulate Michael. But the story is warped to color Isiah as the unreasonable villain and Jordan the blameless, righteous victim. Nah, son. They were both dicks. They were both assholes. They were both egomaniacs. They were both to blame. But one is regarded in a much better light by the majority of both the media and most fans and by history, and that’s how the story will be remembered and told. Especially since one of them is still crying about “but he was such a meanie to me when I was about to become the bestest ever” 30 years later.

Michael will forever hate Isiah and the Pistons because they were the team with a star in Isiah who actually got the best of him during his prime. He has no problem being friends with Charles. Charles couldn’t beat him. Magic is cool. Michael won a championship off of him. He doesn’t speak badly of the Knicks or the Davis Boys with the Pacers and how they were base for basketball employing very similar physical play because they didn’t stop Michael and the Bulls. Stockton and Malone, Oakley, who does he speak badly of the way he does Isiah? Isiah and the Pistons actually derailed and held off Michael’s ascension to ultimate greatness. And because Isiah and a few others didn’t shake his hand, congratulate him, and kiss his ass like every other star in the NBA ultimately did, Michael will hold his grudge forever. It’s even beyond the high school coach that cut him a short a freshman.

Isiah is an unapologetic megalomaniac. And so is Michael. But Michael is also a fucking crazy sociopath.

[FrostKing]

I’m obviously biased, but anyway...

Isiah was wrong for walking out, kind of. But the Michael comments the night before do give context. Michael did interviews before game 4 saying smugly the Pistons were bad for basketball and did not deserve to ever be champions, insulting the team, the players, the city. That obviously didn’t sit well with the Pistons. And why would it? A person bad mouths you, calls you names, discredits your value, then beats your ass, and you’re supposed to play nice? Oh, are they not supposed to be the “bad boys” anymore? When they lose, they should act like good guys? Makes sense. No not really.

Also often ignored is that a couple Pistons players actually did shake hands. I believe guys like Dumars and Salley... I think. Not positive who for sure, but a couple did. Doesn’t get mentioned the way “oh but McHale shook Isiah’s hand” does.

Sure Isiah was bitter. And sure he probably should still have been the bigger person and congratulate Michael. But the story is warped to color Isiah as the unreasonable villain and Jordan the blameless, righteous victim. Nah, son. They were both dicks. They were both assholes. They were both egomaniacs. They were both to blame. But one is regarded in a much better light by the majority of both the media and most fans and by history, and that’s how the story will be remembered and told. Especially since one of them is still crying about “but he was such a meanie to me when I was about to become the bestest ever” 30 years later.

Michael will forever hate Isiah and the Pistons because they were the team with a star in Isiah who actually got the best of him during his prime. He has no problem being friends with Charles. Charles couldn’t beat him. Magic is cool. Michael won a championship off of him. He doesn’t speak badly of the Knicks or the Davis Boys with the Pacers and how they were base for basketball employing very similar physical play because they didn’t stop Michael and the Bulls. Stockton and Malone, Oakley, who does he speak badly of the way he does Isiah? Isiah and the Pistons actually derailed and held off Michael’s ascension to ultimate greatness. And because Isiah and a few others didn’t shake his hand, congratulate him, and kiss his ass like every other star in the NBA ultimately did, Michael will hold his grudge forever. It’s even beyond the high school coach that cut him a short a freshman.

Isiah is an unapologetic megalomaniac. And so is Michael. But Michael is also a fucking crazy sociopath.
No one is making Isiah out to be a criminal. Okay to admit he was/is the lesser man. To me just illustrators how close knit the Pistons were.

On the court Isiah was an elite guard. Superior to Stockton and I'd like to see face Curry

[JamStone]

Would Michael ever admit he was wrong for his comments the night before that was likely the primary reason for the no handshake walkoff the following night?

No. Neither one is going to admit to being wrong. That’s how egomaniacs think and act. But Isiah will be the one who gets criticized for not admitting blame.

That’s fine, except one guy is still crying about it and holding a grudge 30 years later.

[Dirks_Finale]

They definitely had 88 taken from them. Thought they were the better team that year.


Pistons probably thought they would be back to contend. Instead they were out of the league within a few seasons.

That humbled most except Laimbeer. Bad Boys did not age well and their 2-peat is arguably underrated considering their '88 performance

[Dirks_Finale]

Both of them had massive egos.

And Jordan was right, Detroit took things too far. And he wasn't only one saying it and to this day, everybody still knows it.

"Those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you play the pistons you got to call home and tell your family you love them, just in case you never saw them again"

-Barkley at 9:45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYpnTVkupsQ

[Killakobe81]

No one is making Isiah out to be a criminal. Okay to admit he was/is the lesser man. To me just illustrators how close knit the Pistons were.

On the court Isiah was an elite guard. Superior to Stockton and I'd like to see face Curry

Agree on superior to Stockton... Isiah used to get in Dat ass.. So much so dirty ass Malone had to save him by busting Thomas in the head and it required like twenty stitches. Thomas may be a dick but he is underrated... He was like AI's blueprint with better vision and a more consistent jumper not as fast or athletic but Isiah had handles for his Era...

[lefty]

Would Michael ever admit he was wrong for his comments the night before that was likely the primary reason for the no handshake walkoff the following night?

No. Neither one is going to admit to being wrong. That’s how egomaniacs think and act. But Isiah will be the one who gets criticized for not admitting blame.

That’s fine, except one guy is still crying about it and holding a grudge 30 years later.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/RS26SZVbcRjy0/source.gif

[lefty]

Both of them had massive egos.

And Jordan was right, Detroit took things too far. And he wasn't only one saying it and to this day, everybody still knows it.

"Those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you play the pistons you got to call home and tell your family you love them, just in case you never saw them again"


Barkley hurt himself by being too fat

Fuck that bitter fake tough guy

He's mad because Rodman Mahorn and Laimber manhandled him :lol

Even guards would get in his face and he would do nothing ; Maxwell, Spree and Tim Hardaway talked shit to him all day long

Fucking choker, Jordan bought him bling bling in the middle of the 93 Finals and it was over from there :lol

[JamStone]

Both of them had massive egos.

And Jordan was right, Detroit took things too far. And he wasn't only one saying it and to this day, everybody still knows it.

"Those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you play the pistons you got to call home and tell your family you love them, just in case you never saw them again"

-Barkley at 9:45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYpnTVkupsQ

Pistons gave hard fouls. And didn’t apologize for it. They hardly were the first or most egregious. But that’s how history will remember them, because that’s the narrative. And that’s fine. But just so you get a better idea of the whole truth about it...

Before the Pistons were contenders in the mid to late 80s, every team was delivering dirty, hard fouls. That was commonplace. Even the golden boy Larry Bird and his Celtics, even the smiling Magic and his showtime Lakers. Are you too young to remember a Rambis clothesline or a Robert Parish fully cocked swinging punch?

And if it it was just Detroit or that they took it too far, did you really not watch or remember the Knicks against the Bulls in 1992? Riley’s Oakley, Mason, X and company beat up Jordan worse in that playoff series than the Pistons ever did. Seriously. The stuff the Knicks were doing made the Pistons “Jordan Rules” seem like hugs and kisses by comparison. We never seem to hear those Knicks teams mentioned how badly they tried to hurt people, and Jordan in particular. In fact, the no lay-ups rule was Pat Riley’s invention, if I recall correctly. The froncourt of Dale Davis and Antonio Davis was built for that purpose specifically, to injure and maim drivers and slashers and players named Michael who were the face of the league. Do they get put in the same “they were bad for basketball” barrel as the Pistons? Do you recall Karl Malone’s elbow delivered onto Isiah Thomas’s eye that required 40 stitches? You may have seen a replay before but you won’t hear it mentioned too much, because Isiah doesn’t revisit it ten, twenty, thirty years later to cry about it. In the 80s and 90s, teams had guys like Oakley, Davis, Davis, Buck Williams, Mark West, heck Will Perdue and Bill Wennington whose sole purpose was to be an enforcer in the paint and deliver hard and sometimes dirty fouls to discourage drives and slashes. Guys got elbowed, tripped, clotheslined, tackled, undercut, kicked, punched, poked in the eye, grabbed by the nuts, choked out. And if you think it was just the Pistons or they were the worst of the bunch, you didn’t really watch 80s, 90s basketball.

Detroit were culprits, sure. They absolutely took part in the dirty and hard, physical play. Most teams did, even the good teams, even the posterboy teams, like the Celtics and their rich history and the showtime Lakers, and even the untouchable Michael and his Bulls. That’s right, Michael hated how the Pistons played so much, they started to play like them. Even added a once hated Dennis Rodman to solidify that style in the second three peat. That’s how basketball was played.

The Pistons were hated because they weren’t one of the chosen cities, chosen organizations, rich with history and legacy. They were hated because they unpretentiously and unapologetically embraced the “bad boy” persona, took on the Raiders style when Al Davis sent gear for them to rock, and ran ad campaigns with Laimbeer and Mahorn to flaunt it. They didn’t play politics in the media, downplaying the thuggish style of play. They didn’t worry about fans booing them. And they didn’t let the perception change the way they played. And they won championships with that style. And some people and some players and some fans despised them for it.

Those Bad Boy Pistons and most of their fans are cool with playing the villain role, being hated and despised. Just realize the actual whole truth is not often told.

[FrostKing]

Barkley hurt himself by being too fat

Fuck that bitter fake tough guy

He's mad because Rodman Mahorn and Laimber manhandled him :lol

Even guards would get in his face and he would do nothing ; Maxwell, Spree and Tim Hardaway talked shit to him all day long

Fucking choker, Jordan bought him bling bling in the middle of the 93 Finals and it was over from there :lol
Barkley or Malone

Take your pick

[Dirks_Finale]

Yes, I watched a lot of 80's and 90's basketball, Jamstone. It was very physical, especially in comparison to this hands off era. That is what Barkley is saying in the video I posted. That Lebron wanted no part of that physical era. He talked about the handchecking with 2 hands being allowed on a nightly basis which is what I have talked about in the forum for months now.

The other teams were physical, the Pistons were just more frequent and more flagrant with it. The Knicks tried and failed to play Piston ball to beat the Bulls. They were just as bad and flagrant after Detroit faded. And we know why they did it -- -because the only way they had a prayer at beating Jordan is to go with what worked in the past , but I think nobody really cares because they have the empty trophy case in that era

The physicality then was a result of teams that pretty much hated each other. And you would see it boil over from time to time with the Lakers or Celtics. With Detroit it was a constant slugfest that uglied up the game to the point where the NBA decided to start officiating it more tightly. Well, those guys and the Knicks. They realized the Pistons started a trend.



Pistons gave hard fouls. And didn’t apologize for it. They hardly were the first or most egregious. But that’s how history will remember them, because that’s the narrative. And that’s fine. But just so you get a better idea of the whole truth about it...

Before the Pistons were contenders in the mid to late 80s, every team was delivering dirty, hard fouls. That was commonplace. Even the golden boy Larry Bird and his Celtics, even the smiling Magic and his showtime Lakers. Are you too young to remember a Rambis clothesline or a Robert Parish fully cocked swinging punch?

And if it it was just Detroit or that they took it too far, did you really not watch or remember the Knicks against the Bulls in 1992? Riley’s Oakley, Mason, X and company beat up Jordan worse in that playoff series than the Pistons ever did. Seriously. The stuff the Knicks were doing made the Pistons “Jordan Rules” seem like hugs and kisses by comparison. We never seem to hear those Knicks teams mentioned how badly they tried to hurt people, and Jordan in particular. In fact, the no lay-ups rule was Pat Riley’s invention, if I recall correctly. The froncourt of Dale Davis and Antonio Davis was built for that purpose specifically, to injure and maim drivers and slashers and players named Michael who were the face of the league. Do they get put in the same “they were bad for basketball” barrel as the Pistons? Do you recall Karl Malone’s elbow delivered onto Isiah Thomas’s eye that required 40 stitches? You may have seen a replay before but you won’t hear it mentioned too much, because Isiah doesn’t revisit it ten, twenty, thirty years later to cry about it. In the 80s and 90s, teams had guys like Oakley, Davis, Davis, Buck Williams, Mark West, heck Will Perdue and Bill Wennington whose sole purpose was to be an enforcer in the paint and deliver hard and sometimes dirty fouls to discourage drives and slashes. Guys got elbowed, tripped, clotheslined, tackled, undercut, kicked, punched, poked in the eye, grabbed by the nuts, choked out. And if you think it was just the Pistons or they were the worst of the bunch, you didn’t really watch 80s, 90s basketball.

Detroit were culprits, sure. They absolutely took part in the dirty and hard, physical play. Most teams did, even the good teams, even the posterboy teams, like the Celtics and their rich history and the showtime Lakers, and even the untouchable Michael and his Bulls. That’s right, Michael hated how the Pistons played so much, they started to play like them. Even added a once hated Dennis Rodman to solidify that style in the second three peat. That’s how basketball was played.

The Pistons were hated because they weren’t one of the chosen cities, chosen organizations, rich with history and legacy. They were hated because they unpretentiously and unapologetically embraced the “bad boy” persona, took on the Raiders style when Al Davis sent gear for them to rock, and ran ad campaigns with Laimbeer and Mahorn to flaunt it. They didn’t play politics in the media, downplaying the thuggish style of play. They didn’t worry about fans booing them. And they didn’t let the perception change the way they played. And they won championships with that style. And some people and some players and some fans despised them for it.

Those Bad Boy Pistons and most of their fans are cool with playing the villain role, being hated and despised. Just realize the actual whole truth is not often told.

[Dirks_Finale]

I'm no Barkley apologist, but are we forgetting he had the height of a 2 guard and managed to out board 7 foot centers on a nightly basis? He did more with less.


Barkley hurt himself by being too fat

Fuck that bitter fake tough guy

He's mad because Rodman Mahorn and Laimber manhandled him :lol

Even guards would get in his face and he would do nothing ; Maxwell, Spree and Tim Hardaway talked shit to him all day long

Fucking choker, Jordan bought him bling bling in the middle of the 93 Finals and it was over from there :lol

[FrostKing]

Yes, I watched a lot of 80's and 90's basketball, Jamstone. It was very physical, especially in comparison to this hands off era. That is what Barkley is saying in the video I posted. That Lebron wanted no part of that physical era. He talked about the handchecking with 2 hands being allowed on a nightly basis which is what I have talked about in the forum for months now.

The other teams were physical, the Pistons were just more frequent and more flagrant with it. The Knicks tried and failed to play Piston ball to beat the Bulls. They were just as bad and flagrant after Detroit faded. And we know why they did it -- -because the only way they had a prayer at beating Jordan is to go with what worked in the past , but I think nobody really cares because they have the empty trophy case in that era

The physicality then was a result of teams that pretty much hated each other. And you would see it boil over from time to time with the Lakers or Celtics. With Detroit it was a constant slugfest that uglied up the game to the point where the NBA decided to start officiating it more tightly. Well, those guys and the Knicks. They realized the Pistons started a trend.
Knicks really needed an Isiah. Too much responsibility on Starks as the main shooter. That is why 1992 Knicks with prime Xavier might have been the best.

[Killakobe81]

Pistons gave hard fouls. And didn’t apologize for it. They hardly were the first or most egregious. But that’s how history will remember them, because that’s the narrative. And that’s fine. But just so you get a better idea of the whole truth about it...

Before the Pistons were contenders in the mid to late 80s, every team was delivering dirty, hard fouls. That was commonplace. Even the golden boy Larry Bird and his Celtics, even the smiling Magic and his showtime Lakers. Are you too young to remember a Rambis clothesline or a Robert Parish fully cocked swinging punch?

And if it it was just Detroit or that they took it too far, did you really not watch or remember the Knicks against the Bulls in 1992? Riley’s Oakley, Mason, X and company beat up Jordan worse in that playoff series than the Pistons ever did. Seriously. The stuff the Knicks were doing made the Pistons “Jordan Rules” seem like hugs and kisses by comparison. We never seem to hear those Knicks teams mentioned how badly they tried to hurt people, and Jordan in particular. In fact, the no lay-ups rule was Pat Riley’s invention, if I recall correctly. The froncourt of Dale Davis and Antonio Davis was built for that purpose specifically, to injure and maim drivers and slashers and players named Michael who were the face of the league. Do they get put in the same “they were bad for basketball” barrel as the Pistons? Do you recall Karl Malone’s elbow delivered onto Isiah Thomas’s eye that required 40 stitches? You may have seen a replay before but you won’t hear it mentioned too much, because Isiah doesn’t revisit it ten, twenty, thirty years later to cry about it. In the 80s and 90s, teams had guys like Oakley, Davis, Davis, Buck Williams, Mark West, heck Will Perdue and Bill Wennington whose sole purpose was to be an enforcer in the paint and deliver hard and sometimes dirty fouls to discourage drives and slashes. Guys got elbowed, tripped, clotheslined, tackled, undercut, kicked, punched, poked in the eye, grabbed by the nuts, choked out. And if you think it was just the Pistons or they were the worst of the bunch, you didn’t really watch 80s, 90s basketball.

Detroit were culprits, sure. They absolutely took part in the dirty and hard, physical play. Most teams did, even the good teams, even the posterboy teams, like the Celtics and their rich history and the showtime Lakers, and even the untouchable Michael and his Bulls. That’s right, Michael hated how the Pistons played so much, they started to play like them. Even added a once hated Dennis Rodman to solidify that style in the second three peat. That’s how basketball was played.

The Pistons were hated because they weren’t one of the chosen cities, chosen organizations, rich with history and legacy. They were hated because they unpretentiously and unapologetically embraced the “bad boy” persona, took on the Raiders style when Al Davis sent gear for them to rock, and ran ad campaigns with Laimbeer and Mahorn to flaunt it. They didn’t play politics in the media, downplaying the thuggish style of play. They didn’t worry about fans booing them. And they didn’t let the perception change the way they played. And they won championships with that style. And some people and some players and some fans despised them for it.

Those Bad Boy Pistons and most of their fans are cool with playing the villain role, being hated and despised. Just realize the actual whole truth is not often told.

I love that Laimbeer is owning the handshake incident. Not sure why Isiah is Playing victim. He Pippen, MJ Laimbeer etc are all assholes. Own it. HOW can he say they would do it differently when Bill just said he wouldn't...

[Dirks_Finale]

Totally agree. When your best player is 7 foot center not named Anthony Davis and you need a bucket late, it can be real difficult to get that guy the ball in a sweet spot.


Knicks really needed an Isiah. Too much responsibility on Starks as the main shooter. That is why 1992 Knicks with prime Xavier might have been the best.

[Dirks_Finale]

I love that Laimbeer is owning the handshake incident. Not sure why Isiah is Playing victim. He Pippen, MJ Laimbeer etc are all assholes. Own it. HOW can he say they would do it differently when Bill just said he wouldn't...

Zeke played the victim on his racist comments he echoed from Rodman many years ago. Just who he is.

[lefty]

Barkley or Malone

Take your pick

Tim Duncan

[lefty]

I'm no Barkley apologist, but are we forgetting he had the height of a 2 guard and managed to out board 7 foot centers on a nightly basis? He did more with less.

I’m not questioning his talent and versatility
Fantastic player

But as I said a sore loser

At least he called out a ref one night in front of Jordan for his special treatment
Of course he got a T for that

[JamStone]

Just to be clear, I didn’t watch any of the Last Dance episodes and I don’t know all the subsequent quote from all parties since. The stuff I’ve said is from my own recollection and my own opinion without the context of the documentary or accompanying quotes.

As far as Isiah not owning up to not shaking hands, from what I’ve gathered, his regret is tied into his belief that it may be one of the things that kept him off the Dream Team, and maybe some of the negative backlash he received for it. If that wasn’t part of it, I don’t believe he’d show much if any regret. He’s still hurt over being left off of the Dream Team. So if that could have changed by shaking Michael’s hand, I’m assuming he would have. Laimbeer wasn’t going to be on the Dream team either way.

As far as co-signing Rodman, that has been addressed before, I believe even on the Bad Boys 30 for 30 as well. Isiah didn’t agree with Rodman. But Rodman was his teammate, Bird wasn’t. Not having Rodman’s back would have caused a rift in the lockerroom and caused emotional baggage onto a young Dennis, who we all know was emotionally unstable. As leader of those Pistons team, Isiah chose to have his young teammate’s back in order to show solidarity. Just like not shaking Michael’s hand, it was a wrong thing to do but was done for a reason. Rodman put all of his teammate’s in a pickle by making those comments, most of all Isiah because he was the leader and face of the Pistons.

[FrostKing]

Tim Duncan
Weak. You hungover today?

[lefty]

Knicks really needed an Isiah. Too much responsibility on Starks as the main shooter. That is why 1992 Knicks with prime Xavier might have been the best.
Yep
The Knicks were fine with Xman and Mark Jackson
The trade with the LAC was a downgrade

[lefty]

Weak. You hungover today?
Yes :lol

[FrostKing]

Yes :lol
Head spinning all night contemplating how to break MJ-Pippen-Rodman?

I'll give you your precious Lebron. What other 2 do you want

[Bill_Brasky]

Just to be clear, I didn’t watch any of the Last Dance episodes and I don’t know all the subsequent quote from all parties since. The stuff I’ve said is from my own recollection and my own opinion without the context of the documentary or accompanying quotes.

As far as Isiah not owning up to not shaking hands, from what I’ve gathered, his regret is tied into his belief that it may be one of the things that kept him off the Dream Team, and maybe some of the negative backlash he received for it. If that wasn’t part of it, I don’t believe he’d show much if any regret. He’s still hurt over being left off of the Dream Team. So if that could have changed by shaking Michael’s hand, I’m assuming he would have. Laimbeer wasn’t going to be on the Dream team either way.

As far as co-signing Rodman, that has been addressed before, I believe even on the Bad Boys 30 for 30 as well. Isiah didn’t agree with Rodman. But Rodman was his teammate, Bird wasn’t. Not having Rodman’s back would have caused a rift in the lockerroom and caused emotional baggage onto a young Dennis, who we all know was emotionally unstable. As leader of those Pistons team, Isiah chose to have his young teammate’s back in order to show solidarity. Just like not shaking Michael’s hand, it was a wrong thing to do but was done for a reason. Rodman put all of his teammate’s in a pickle by making those comments, most of all Isiah because he was the leader and face of the Pistons.

Honestly, MJ should fucking thank the Pistons for pushing him so hard. He wouldn't have become such a great player without them.

I just hate how biased the doc it. Making it seem like poor little Mike didn't provoke and attack people.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Isaiah Thomas spent his entire basketball career being coached by Bobby Knight and Chuck Daly, so of course he has a lot of pride for his team...too much, but it ain’t the worst thing an athlete can do.

[Capt Bringdown]

The Last Dance is a entertaining trip down memory lane.

And then:
Ken Burns Disparages Michael Jordan Docuseries: "Not the Way You Do Good Journalism" -->> (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ken-burns-slams-michael-jordan-docuseries-last-dance-1292707)
Ken Burns has serious reservations about ESPN docuseries The Last Dance, which focuses on Michael Jordan and his time with the Chicago Bulls.


Talking to The Wall Street Journal, the award-winning documentarian said he has no interest in the 10-part series and frowns upon Jordan's production company, Jump 23, being a partner in the effort.

"I find it the opposite direction of where we need to be going,” Burns told the WSJ. “If you are there influencing the very fact of it getting made, it means that certain aspects that you don’t necessarily want in aren’t going to be in, period."

I'm not a fan of Ken Burn's middle-brow film output, but he does have a point. Jordan has final say-so on what's in the film. That's significant.

It does kind of resonate as MJ/PJ puff piece, doesn't it? More of an infomercial than a documentary.
Maybe there is a no-holds barred documentary to be made about the Jordan years, but this ain't it.

It will be interesting to see how the film portrays Jordan's "retirement."

[scanry]

After watching the last dance, I find Jordan to be a sensitive little twat. His drive was otherworldly but his emotions were not. I don't think he would've been as successful as he was if they had social media in that era.

[Dirks_Finale]

After watching the last dance, I find Jordan to be a sensitive little twat. His drive was otherworldly but his emotions were not. I don't think he would've been as successful as he was if they had social media in that era.

He was extremely sensitive. I think Sports Illustrated had reported that MJ's fathers death could be related to his gambling debt. After that, he froze them out for the rest of his career. Journalists were terrified of offending him.

[daslicer]

After watching the last dance, I find Jordan to be a sensitive little twat. His drive was otherworldly but his emotions were not. I don't think he would've been as successful as he was if they had social media in that era.

I think he would have been as successful if he had social media in his era. Jordan was sick in the head and he would have used the insults he got on social media as motivation. Now I do believe he isn't as well liked if social media existed during his career.

[scanry]

I think he would have been as successful if he had social media in his era. Jordan was sick in the head and he would have used the insults he got on social media as motivation. Now I do believe he isn't as well liked if social media existed during his career.

I'm a big MJ fan but having seen more graceful great players since Michael retired makes me wonder basketball is not everything. I feel Duncan, Kobe and Lebron have had just as stellar a career Michael has had but it's always, was he greater than MJ?

Players need to move and be content with what they had achieved. Michael kept the documentary on ice for 20 years and only wanted to show the world (especially the millenials) after Lebron rang in 2016. That's insecurity right there.

[Bill_Brasky]

I'm a big MJ fan but having seen more graceful great players since Michael retired makes me wonder Basketball is not everything. I feel Duncan, Kobe and Lebron have had just as stellar a career Michael has had but it's always, was he greater than MJ?

Players need to move and be content with what they had achieved. Michael is not because he wanted to show the world only after Lebron rang in 2016.

Yep. Jordan's time is done and he can't accept it. So he suddenly is OK with releasing this footage and documentary now because
....Lebron is threatening to win a title with the Lakers.

[FrostKing]

Based on Pippen's late start in 1998 and eventual poor offensive showing forcing Kukoc in the 2nd fiddle role

Can understand Krause fear and honestly attempt at prolonging Jordan's peak. MJ had one of his finest seasons in 1998

[Neo.]

Both of them had massive egos.

And Jordan was right, Detroit took things too far. And he wasn't only one saying it and to this day, everybody still knows it.

"Those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you play the pistons you got to call home and tell your family you love them, just in case you never saw them again"

-Barkley at 9:45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYpnTVkupsQ

lol so dramatic, just to boost their own era :rolleyes

sure they were dirty as heck, and im sure a few were afraid of receiving a cheap shot here and there, but i guarantee not one person in the nba literally came remotely close to fearing for their lives in a highly controlled game of professional basketball

stuff like this is why younger generations lack respect for previous generations, when they wayyyyyy over-exaggerate crap like this to just to add to their own "mystique" and to crap on younger generations, instead of just being real about it.

[Dirks_Finale]

lol so dramatic, just to boost their own era :rolleyes

sure they were dirty as heck, and im sure a few were afraid of receiving a cheap shot here and there, but i guarantee not one person in the nba literally came remotely close to fearing for their lives in a highly controlled game of professional basketball

stuff like this is why younger generations lack respect for previous generations, when they wayyyyyy over-exaggerate crap like this to just to add to their own "mystique" and to crap on younger generations, instead of just being real about it.

Hyperbole to make a point. Which Barkley often does.

[lefty]

lol so dramatic, just to boost their own era :rolleyes

sure they were dirty as heck, and im sure a few were afraid of receiving a cheap shot here and there, but i guarantee not one person in the nba literally came remotely close to fearing for their lives in a highly controlled game of professional basketball

stuff like this is why younger generations lack respect for previous generations, when they wayyyyyy over-exaggerate crap like this to just to add to their own "mystique" and to crap on younger generations, instead of just being real about it.

Don’t you know????!!!!!!!!


Back in the day, you had machetes and chainsaw waiting for you near the basket.
You had to walk from city to city, planes are for pussies

[KobesAchilles]

It’s been pretty boring so far tbh. Just a lot of revisionist history going on. Can’t blame Mike for doing this to prop up his standings with the younger kids/players but man it makes it seem like Mike was the biggest victim of all time. Krause ended my dynasty :cry The Pistons were a buncha meanies :cry My GM didn’t want me to ruin my career my second year in the league :cry

Now I’m hearing all these things that Jordan had to “overcome.” Dude didn’t overcome shit. Krause was the best GM in the league. Pistons didn’t shake your hand and I have to hear you whine about it 30 years later? This doc better show Quitting like Pippen. Better show Mike getting stripped by Nick Anderson. Hell i knew this doc was shit when they made Krause seem like the bad guy in the first two episodes and didn’t say shit about the cheapest owner in all of sports.

[Dirks_Finale]

It’s been pretty boring so far tbh. Just a lot of revisionist history going on. Can’t blame Mike for doing this to prop up his standings with the younger kids/players but man it makes it seem like Mike was the biggest victim of all time. Krause ended my dynasty :cry The Pistons were a buncha meanies :cry My GM didn’t want me to ruin my career my second year in the league :cry

Now I’m hearing all these things that Jordan had to “overcome.” Dude didn’t overcome shit. Krause was the best GM in the league. Pistons didn’t shake your hand and I have to hear you whine about it 30 years later? This doc better show Quitting like Pippen. Better show Mike getting stripped by Nick Anderson. Hell i knew this doc was shit when they made Krause seem like the bad guy in the first two episodes and didn’t say shit about the cheapest owner in all of sports.

Valid point on Reinsdorf. He was whining because of Jordan's 30+ million asking price late in his career. Like seriously, Jordan made you and the NBA a large sum of money. Stfu and payup. Stop pinching pennies.

Then they get Rose and Reinsdorf predicts 5 more titles. Then karma came to collect and they are still bottom feeders 2 decades later.

[FrostKing]

Valid point on Reinsdorf. He was whining because of Jordan's 30+ million asking price late in his career. Like seriously, Jordan made you and the NBA a large sum of money. Stfu and payup. Stop pinching pennies.

Then they get Rose and Reinsdorf predicts 5 more titles. Then karma came to collect and they are still bottom feeders 2 decades later.
Reinsdorf is the mastermind in all this. Gets all the credit without any of the blame.

Jordan also signed a long contract that soon became obsolete. Data I saw: in 1996, (MJ + Pippen) were earning 1/5 of Ewing.

[ambchang]

I saw Thomas on ESPN, and he still doesn’t understand why so many players from that time, Fucking hated his guts. Still hate his guts. Clueless. He was classless then. And he still is now. His excuse for not shaking hands is complete bullshit. Just shake their fucking hands and walk off the court like a champion you idiot.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story?id=29104562&_slug_=isiah-thomas-regretful-bill-laimbeer-defiant-bulls-snub-1991-playoffs

Gotta love Laimbeer.

[ambchang]

rofl you of all people crying about passive aggressive responses



Kobe - 96 draft - 22yo - 6 ppg jump
Iverson - 96 draft - 25yo - 2.7 ppg jump
Pierce - 98 draft - 23yo - 5.8 ppg jump
McGrady - 97 draft - 21yo - 11.4 ppg jump
Carter - 98 draft - 24yo - 1.9 ppg increase
Stackhouse - 95 draft - 26yo - 6.2 ppg increase
Allen - 96 draft - 25yo - 0.1 ppg decrease

seems like some pretty inconsistent increases, certainly not all a half dozen point increases. and yes, they all entered at such different times, pretty much all within the same 3 year span, all of whom were in development stages of their career as they were still in the first 5 years of their long HOF careers, with the exception of stackhouse who came a whopping 1 year earlier and wasnt quite HOF material like the rest but still a very talented scorer. oh and their ages were all still fairly young and generally close as well.

regardless

im certain tmacs increase had nothing to do with leaving a team that already had vince carter on the wing scoring 26 a game, and going to a team where he could be the #1 scoring option, especially after Grant Hill's career was basically ruined due to injury

speaking of grant hill, im sure his departure from detroit, losing his 26 ppg, and not replacing him with another strong scorer didn't have much effect on why stackhouse's scoring increased

of course the departure of glen rice also couldn't have had any bearing on kobes scoring increase either

iverson had the wonderful pleasure of playing with toni kukoc and larry hughes, a couple decent wing scorers. but hughes was traded away late in the previous year, while kukoc was traded halfway through the 00-01 year. nah, im sure each of their 10-12 ppg contributions didn't need to be replaced by AI taking a couple extra shots. it was definitely the rule changes that helped AI score 2.7 more ppg.

and we've clearly established that its far too illogical to think an exceptionally talented scorer like paul pierce could have a massive scoring increase in his third year in the league, as he has been developing as a player and the coach decided to give him a bigger share of offense

so yep, the single biggest reason for the scoring increases can only logically be chalked up to the rule changes. well done.

Nobody said those factors didn't have impact, just that the perimeter defense rule changes were the main drivers.

And since we are talking about Grant Hill, 00 would've had one more perimeter top 10 scorer if he wasn't hurt. The league clearly went from a paint focused league to a perimeter oriented league that one single year. And why did you even bring up Glen Rice? The guy scored 16ppg the year before, and his place in the offense was filled in by Fox and Fisher.

You sound like that year was the only year marquee players had some half decent scoring teammates traded away.

[FrostKing]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yWz-EemQKbI/maxresdefault.jpg

[lefty]

Curry would averaged 70 ppg against those 90s Knicks

[Dirks_Finale]

:lol


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yWz-EemQKbI/maxresdefault.jpg

[Spurtacular]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yWz-EemQKbI/maxresdefault.jpg

I guarantee the foul was still called when Jordan drove to the rim and nobody touched him.

[Dirks_Finale]

Curry isn't even Mahmoud Abdul Rauf in that era. :lol

[Spurtacular]

Still haven't seen any of this. Not going out of my way to try to catch reruns either. ESPN listing it on demand?

[lefty]

I guarantee the foul was still called when Jordan drove to the rim and nobody touched him.

Yup

[ambchang]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29072209/the-scariest-game-ever-faced-chicago-bulls-talk-their-toughest-game-7

Confirmed:
1) Jordan can’t win without Pippen
2) when the opposition goes up, their main guys get foul trouble.

[FrostKing]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29072209/the-scariest-game-ever-faced-chicago-bulls-talk-their-toughest-game-7

Confirmed:
1) Jordan can’t win without Pippen
2) when the opposition goes up, their main guys get foul trouble.
Kukoc was the x-factor in that series/playoff run

[FrostKing]

WHAT TIME IS IT?

[FrostKing]

Episodes 5 and 6 were even better. This is gonna climax with Episode 10 isn't it.

[Dirks_Finale]

So far I am not seeing anything that makes me view Jordan any differently. It's exactly who I remember. A hyper ego-maniac that was trying to cut your heart out even if you were a 5 yr old kid or an 80 yr old man. He gave zero f#%ks.

[FrostKing]

So far I am not seeing anything that makes me view Jordan any differently. It's exactly who I remember. A hyper ego-maniac that was trying to cut your heart out even if you were a 5 yr old kid or an 80 yr old man. He gave zero f#%ks.
Michael was allowed certain leeways because of his IQ and strong family foundation. NBA/Bulls trusted he would not "cause chaos". But this also brought in a new level of the "Superstar Era"

[daslicer]

So far I am not seeing anything that makes me view Jordan any differently. It's exactly who I remember. A hyper ego-maniac that was trying to cut your heart out even if you were a 5 yr old kid or an 80 yr old man. He gave zero f#%ks.

Agreed. It's the perspective from the other players that I find interesting while watching this documentary.

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/johndelizondo/status/1257168163621548034

[InRareForm]

Am I the only one that doesn't really look forward to these. Jordan was the greatest but I don't like him

[lefty]

Am I the only one that doesn't really look forward to these. Jordan was the greatest but I don't like him

I was looking forward to it but after a couple of episodes it’s pretty meh
There is nothing new and insecure Jordan controls the show to fit his narrative

[Dirks_Finale]

Aren't they all insecure little babies though?

KD with his 200 twitter accounts

Lebron after losing to the Mavs in 2011: "I'm still rich and your life still sucks, haters" (paraphrase)


I was looking forward to it but after a couple of episodes it’s pretty meh
There is nothing new and insecure Jordan controls the show to fit his narrative

[lefty]

Aren't they all insecure little babies though?

KD with his 200 twitter accounts

Lebron after losing to the Mavs in 2011: "I'm still rich and your life still sucks, haters" (paraphrase)

But Jordan is the worst


By far

HOF speech
Humiliating his HS school cosch who did nothing wrong
Flying the guy who had his spot in HS to the HOF ceremony


On the other hand you see guys like Bird praising the current generation

[Dirks_Finale]

But Jordan is the worst


By far

HOF speech
Humiliating his HS school cosch who did nothing wrong
Flying the guy who had his spot in HS to the HOF ceremony


On the other hand you see guys like Bird praising the current generation

That HOF speech was disgusting.

[lefty]

That HOF speech was disgusting.
"To my Kids, I feel sorry for you"

what the hell :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

"To my Kids, I feel sorry for you"

what the hell :lol

Seriously, I was beginning to think Ashton Kutcher was going to burst onto the scene and announce we were all being punked. Biggest POS speech ever- --even topping Lebron crapping all over Cleveland with his decision.

[FrostKing]

Some of you accused the series of being "Jordan washed" and will avoid controversial topics

Wrong.

[lefty]

Seriously, I was beginning to think Ashton Kutcher was going to burst onto the scene and announce we were all being punked. Biggest POS speech ever- --even topping Lebron crapping all over Cleveland with his decision.
"Hey everybody look at Leroy Smith! Look at him! Look how ugly he is! Fucking dick!
Leroy, you little unworthy piece of shit, you took my spot and I'm going to humiliate you in front of everybody; I had to flew you in because you can't afford a plane ticket, you broke nigga! You can't even afford sneakers You know who buy sneakers? Republicans, that's right. I'm going to destroy you for the rest of your life.... How dare you?"

[Dirks_Finale]

"Hey everybody look at Leroy Smith! Look at him! Look how ugly he is! Fucking dick!
Leroy, you little unworthy piece of shit, you took my spot and I'm going to humiliate you in front of everybody; I had to flew you in because you can't afford a plane ticket, you broke nigga! You can't even afford sneakers You know who buy sneakers? Republicans, that's right. I'm going to destroy you for the rest of your life.... How dare you?"
:lol

[140]

:cry:cry:cry Jordan was such a meanie :cry:cry:cry

[Neo.]

Nobody said those factors didn't have impact, just that the perimeter defense rule changes were the main drivers.

well your proof that the rule changes were the main drivers, was that scoring went up for several perimeter players. but there clearly were a number of other factors that caused their scoring increases. so what is your proof that the rule change was the main driver?


And since we are talking about Grant Hill, 00 would've had one more perimeter top 10 scorer if he wasn't hurt. The league clearly went from a paint focused league to a perimeter oriented league that one single year.

really? all in one year? mainly because of the rule changes? as opposed to several years of highly talented perimeter players being drafted, and strategy evolving to focus less on low post offense and more on penetration and high post offense?


And why did you even bring up Glen Rice? The guy scored 16ppg the year before, and his place in the offense was filled in by Fox and Fisher.

hm was it really? because i dont think anyone would consider either of those guys remotely as talented of a scorer as glen rice, nor as good of spot up shooters

not only that, but they together averaged 8.8 more points than they did the previous season. so that still leaves around another 7 points from glen rices departure not accounted for. oh wait, kobe's average went up 6 points. but i guess its not logical to think that some of that scoring load would be taken on by kobe


You sound like that year was the only year marquee players had some half decent scoring teammates traded away.

never claimed that at all. I simply brought up some counterpoints to your incredibly weak argument that the rule change was the primary reason for scoring increases for several young, highly talented wing players.

[lefty]

Some of you accused the series of being "Jordan washed" and will avoid controversial topics

Wrong.

It is washed

[Killakobe81]

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/3083391001

Interesting story... Says some of the same things Jamstone said last week.
MJ is the Goat but dude is petty, narcissistic and punched teammates. He gambled in to late hours before big games... If LeBron did that he would be crucified.
The doc is showing you the acrobatic layups, dunks and shots that made him the Goat... But those not willing to admit he was a shitty teammate, employee (how many black man working at a multimillion dollar entity can call the president of that company, fat to his face?) etc. Gambling may or not be why he took a leave from hoops...doubt the full truth will ever be revealed...
But he still the best no matter what we see though ... because the resume can't be beat.

[Killakobe81]

It is funny that people shit on Bird, Malone, Kobe Isiah etc for being shitty people in their personal lives but give MJ a pass for everything

[Dirks_Finale]

He has major character flaws. If his HOF speech didn't convince people of that, then nothing will.

Still not even close between him and Lebron, imo. There is no real GOAT debate.

Lebron has his own ego issues and is delusional as hell


https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/3083391001

Interesting story... Says some of the same things Jamstone said last week.
MJ is the Goat but dude is petty, narcissistic and punched teammates. He gambled in to late hours before big games... If LeBron did that he would be crucified.
The doc is showing you the acrobatic layups, dunks and shots that made him the Goat... But those not willing to admit he was a shitty teammate, employee (how many black man working at a multimillion dollar entity can call the president of that company, fat to his face?) etc. Gambling may or not be why he took a leave from hoops...doubt the full truth will ever be revealed...
But he still the best no matter what we see the because the resume can't be beat.

[FrostKing]

The documentary covered all this in the previous 2 episodes

Are some of you not paying attention and failing to put one and two together? Michael is GOAT because of uber competitiveness that includes gambling and battling teammates

Michael molded his teammates. He didn't run off to another team/roster or better yet try and play GM. He did it the old fashioned way.

[benefactor]

I haven't watched a single episode and I don't plan on it. Jordan's act is tired. We get it Mike, you can't let your old scores you don't feel you fully settled go...and you never will. He'll be an old man someday still talking shit about Jerry Krause and Isaiah Thomas to anyone who will fucking listen.

[FrostKing]

I haven't watched a single episode and I don't plan on it. Jordan's act is tired. We get it Mike, you can't let your old scores you don't feel you fully settled go...and you never will. He'll be an old man someday still talking shit about Jerry Krause and Isaiah Thomas to anyone who will fucking listen.
Huh? He didn't hit the social media trail to bitch. Didn't even do the daytime television circle. There is a documentary and these are questions people are asking. Do you expect him to avoid the questions or lie? If anything it is Isiah that attempts to spin what occurred thru a hindsight perspective. And MJ calls him out on it.

[lefty]

It is funny that people shit on Bird, Malone, Kobe Isiah etc for being shitty people in their personal lives but give MJ a pass for everything

True

By the way you forgot Magic

[lefty]

I haven't watched a single episode and I don't plan on it. Jordan's act is tired. We get it Mike, you can't let your old scores you don't feel you fully settled go...and you never will. He'll be an old man someday still talking shit about Jerry Krause and Isaiah Thomas to anyone who will fucking listen.
:lol I can see Jordan at 95 talking to a fly about Krause and Zeke

[FrostKing]

The average American is more aware of Jordan's gambling than anything Bird/Malone did. Magic has no faults whatsoever according to modern day American society. Isiah? Average NBA fan today barely even knows of him. Kobe - didn't we just witness his public eulogy and it didn't include Colorado.

As the BS (trolling?) is starting to pile up on here I am starting to realize the importance of this documentary.

[Killakobe81]

True

By the way you forgot Magic

Fair point ... and trust me I have been trying to forget much of what magic has said and done outside of corporate America since he cried and said "I'm gonna beat this on ESPN". We have had some good moments ...like the ASG in Orlando and some stature ceremonies and jersey retirement speeches ...but I prefer to think of magic stuck in that time capsule covered in champagne saying "back-to-back ..yeah ...YEAH!!!" if he disappeared after that he wouldn't be MJ but he sure would compare more favorably post retirement ...

[Neo.]

Michael is GOAT because of uber competitiveness that includes gambling and battling teammates

Michael molded his teammates. He didn't run off to another team/roster or better yet try and play GM. He did it the old fashioned way.

:lmao as if no other player ever is uber competitive and obsessed to an extreme degree with winning. im pretty sure guys like Kobe and Lebron are just as obsessed with winning as Mike, they just go about it in a different manner. yet they still mold their teammates.

sure he didnt run off, because he had no need to. he was already given a hall-of-fame talent sidekick who complimented him well. also its well documented that he repeatedly threatened to not play and/or retire if the front office didn't make moves that he wanted, people just didnt know as widely because of lack of social media

[FrostKing]

:lmao as if no other player ever is uber competitive and obsessed to an extreme degree with winning. im pretty sure guys like Kobe and Lebron are just as obsessed with winning as Mike, they just go about it in a different manner. yet they still mold their teammates.

sure he didnt run off, because he had no need to. he was already given a hall-of-fame talent sidekick who complimented him well. also its well documented that he repeatedly threatened to not play and/or retire if the front office didn't make moves that he wanted, people just didnt know as widely because of lack of social media
Lebron and Magic are less competitive than Jordan and Bird

Lebron walked into a much stronger lockeroom as a rookie. What happened - James quit.

[lefty]

Lebron and Magic are less competitive than Jordan and Bird

Lebron walked into a much stronger lockeroom as a rookie. What happened - James quit.

Good one

[lefty]

:lmao as if no other player ever is uber competitive and obsessed to an extreme degree with winning. im pretty sure guys like Kobe and Lebron are just as obsessed with winning as Mike, they just go about it in a different manner. yet they still mold their teammates.

sure he didnt run off, because he had no need to. he was already given a hall-of-fame talent sidekick who complimented him well. also its well documented that he repeatedly threatened to not play and/or retire if the front office didn't make moves that he wanted, people just didnt know as widely because of lack of social media

This

[FrostKing]

This
There is a "Like" and "lol" button on the bottom left

[Neo.]

Lebron and Magic are less competitive than Jordan and Bird

Proof?


Lebron walked into a much stronger lockeroom as a rookie.

no he didnt


What happened - James quit.

no he didnt

[lefty]

There is a "Like" and "lol" button on the bottom left
Lol

[ambchang]

That HOF speech was disgusting.

And the media is still praising him for being honest and showing competitive fire.

[ambchang]

well your proof that the rule changes were the main drivers, was that scoring went up for several perimeter players. but there clearly were a number of other factors that caused their scoring increases. so what is your proof that the rule change was the main driver?

Top scorers became perimeter oriented players as well, which was a point that just disappeared for some reason.



really? all in one year? mainly because of the rule changes? as opposed to several years of highly talented perimeter players being drafted, and strategy evolving to focus less on low post offense and more on penetration and high post offense?

Because the rule changes enabled that.


hm was it really? because i dont think anyone would consider either of those guys remotely as talented of a scorer as glen rice, nor as good of spot up shooters

They aren't, but at that point Glen Rice was clearly on the downhill of his career. His shooting percentages plummeted the last year he was with the Lakers.


not only that, but they together averaged 8.8 more points than they did the previous season. so that still leaves around another 7 points from glen rices departure not accounted for. oh wait, kobe's average went up 6 points. but i guess its not logical to think that some of that scoring load would be taken on by kobe

I guess team scoring is like a puzzle where someone's drop in scorer must be picked up by other players in the same position now.

never claimed that at all. I simply brought up some counterpoints to your incredibly weak argument that the rule change was the primary reason for scoring increases for several young, highly talented wing players.

And your counterarguments are much weaker. Players have teammates traded away every year, players scoring average increase dramatically every year, but 2000-01 was the only year where the scoring average of perimeter players jumped rather dramatically all in one year, with more perimeter players being top scorers, and with one of the most perimeter friendly rule change designed to increase scoring enacted.

[ambchang]

It is funny that people shit on Bird, Malone, Kobe Isiah etc for being shitty people in their personal lives but give MJ a pass for everything

I can't understand that part either. But at least Jordan never impregnated a 12 year old girl and then abandoned her ... that the public knew of.

[ambchang]

The documentary covered all this in the previous 2 episodes

Are some of you not paying attention and failing to put one and two together? Michael is GOAT because of uber competitiveness that includes gambling and battling teammates

Michael molded his teammates. He didn't run off to another team/roster or better yet try and play GM. He did it the old fashioned way.

Which of those alphas aren't ultra competitive? Magic, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell are all ultra competitive. To think Jordan is on this personal podium of competitiveness greatness is purely a product of the media.

[FrostKing]

Which of those alphas aren't ultra competitive? Magic, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell are all ultra competitive. To think Jordan is on this personal podium of competitiveness greatness is purely a product of the media.
Lebron and Wilt were not

Magic, Kobe, Hakeem and Kareem coasted for portions

Bird, Duncan, and Jordan most competitive

[FrostKing]

Lebron/Wilt - most athletic but smallest brain/competitiveness

Bird/Duncan - least athletic but strongest brain/competitiveness

Jordan scored high on both

[ambchang]

Lebron and Wilt were not

Magic, Kobe, Hakeem and Kareem coasted for portions

Bird, Duncan, and Jordan most competitive

So Jordan was competitive and couldn't get out of first round because of crap teammates and great competition, but Wilt couldn't win the title against a team with 8 HoFers because he wasn't competitive?

[lefty]

So Jordan was competitive and couldn't get out of first round because of crap teammates and great competition, but Wilt couldn't win the title against a team with 8 HoFers because he wasn't competitive?
Jordan stans logic

[lefty]

Not from TLD, but Jordan’s dad was fucked up :wow



A few excerpts for Roland Lazenby's "Michael Jordan: The Life":

"IT TOOK THE fewest of words to set him off, sometimes nothing more than the faintest trace of a smirk. He was also capable of making things up, conjuring up an affront out of thin air. That’s what they would all realize afterward. He would seize on apparently meaningless cracks or gestures and plunge them deep in his heart, until they glowed radioactively, the nuclear fuel rods of his great fire.

Only much later would the public come to understand just how incapable he was of letting go of even the tiniest details. Many observers mistakenly thought that these “affronts” were laughable things of Michael’s own manufacture, little devices to spur his competitive juices, and that he could jokingly toss them aside when he was done with them, after he had wrung another sweaty victory from the evening. But he could not let them go any more than he could shed his right arm. They were as organic to his being as his famous tongue. Many of the things that deeply offended Michael Jordan were hardly the stuff of stinging rebuke, except perhaps the very first one, which, as it later turned out, was the most important of all.

“Just go on in the house with the women.”

Of the millions of sentences that James Jordan uttered to his youngest son, this was the one that glowed neon-bright across the decades.

… “Years later,” his sister Deloris recalled, “during the early days of his NBA career, he confessed that it was my father’s early treatment of him and Daddy’s declaration of his worthlessness that became the driving force that motivated him.… Each accomplishment that he achieved was his battle cry for defeating my father’s negative opinions of him.”

…

the union of James and Deloris Jordan teetered on the brink of self-destruction in the mid-1970s. They projected an image of happiness, but their marriage was plagued by a discord that lurched at times into violent arguments. In the worst of these conflicts, beginning on Calico Bay Road, James and Deloris would go at each other in front of the children, who would run across the street hoping to find a grandparent to break up the melee.

… Daughter Sis recalled one set-to where her mother went after her father and he responded by knocking her out cold. The children feared she might be dead, but the next morning she appeared from the bedroom, ready to face another day. Another incident brought a frightening car chase down a road near their house, with the children in one of the cars. Such incidents fitfully interrupted a general peace that kept the family moving forward, but always with a lurking element of fear.

…

When Sis got back in the car, Deloris told her daughter to explain what she had just said. The mother listened silently as Sis told of a pattern of persistent abuse over eight years in which James Jordan would visit her late at night in the bed she shared with Roslyn, who was a preschooler when the alleged abuse began. Sis recounted how her father first explained that he was teaching her to kiss like an adult, how confused she was, how the abuse escalated over time.

... What followed next was a harrowing scene, according to Sis’s account. They drove to Club Eleganza, where James was doing some maintenance work. His wife ordered him into the car, and they drove to a little-used road and pulled over, where Deloris told her daughter to repeat the allegations. As Sis delivered her account, Deloris told her husband that now certain things about the marriage made sense. James flew into a fury and began choking his daughter while screaming, “Are you going to believe this tramp over me?” Sis recalled being stunned at her father calling her a tramp. With Sis gasping, Deloris told him to stop or she would kill him.

Finally, then, the angry moment broke, Sis recalled in her book. They all calmed down and rode home, where the daughter retreated immediately to her bedroom. After about an hour, her mother came and told her that the circumstances made it impossible for the three of them to live together. Because Sis still had two years of high school left, she would have to leave the family to live in a girls’ home. She told her daughter that James had explained that he was “only trying to help her” and that she had terribly misunderstood his affection.

... The Jordans never acted on their threat of sending their daughter to a home for girls. The parents somehow managed to absorb the incident and move forward, all the while keeping a cheerful outward demeanor. James Jordan, in particular, would continue to earn praise and affection as the amiable father of a very special athlete."

[FrostKing]

So Jordan was competitive and couldn't get out of first round because of crap teammates and great competition, but Wilt couldn't win the title against a team with 8 HoFers because he wasn't competitive?
Jordan averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs his entire career. Wilt stopped doing so after 27 years old.

At the age of 32, Lakers made a run to the Finals with Wilt averaging 13 PPG in the playoffs

[ambchang]

Jordan averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs his entire career. Wilt stopped doing so after 27 years old.

At the age of 32, Lakers made a run to the Finals with Wilt averaging 13 PPG in the playoffs

Careers were way shorter back then. It’s like saying what Lebron is doing in his 17th season be the wizards years.

[Neo.]

Lebron/Wilt - most athletic but smallest brain/competitiveness

Bird/Duncan - least athletic but strongest brain/competitiveness

Jordan scored high on both

where do you get the idea that lebron or wilt lack brain?

[Neo.]

Top scorers became perimeter oriented players as well, which was a point that just disappeared for some reason.

lol what? it never once disappeared. in fact it has basically been at the root of this whole discussion


Because the rule changes enabled that.

lmao so you are saying that it was virtually impossible for perimeter oriented players to score lots of points prior to the rule change


They aren't, but at that point Glen Rice was clearly on the downhill of his career. His shooting percentages plummeted the last year he was with the Lakers.

absolutely true. but also has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he was clearly the #3 scorer on the team behind shaq and kobe. losing him whether its due to departure, or due to lack of productivity doesnt change the fact that the scoring punch he brought to the team needed to be replaced. it was very clear that kobe handled the majority of that difference by having an increased share in the offense.


I guess team scoring is like a puzzle where someone's drop in scorer must be picked up by other players in the same position now.

hm where was anything like that even remotely hinted? if i recall, YOU were the one who claimed that rices scoring was replaced by fox and fisher. i provided proof that kobe handled some of it as well. but at no time did i claim that people playing the same position picked up the scoring slack. would you like to provide proof of anyone on the team who picked up the slack more than kobe did?


And your counterarguments are much weaker. Players have teammates traded away every year, players scoring average increase dramatically every year, but 2000-01 was the only year where the scoring average of perimeter players jumped rather dramatically all in one year, with more perimeter players being top scorers, and with one of the most perimeter friendly rule change designed to increase scoring enacted.

you're the one who is making this claim that the rule changes is the single biggest contributor, and that there has NEVER been a year where 6-7 wing players had a dramatic scoring increase. would you like to back this up with some proof?

:lmao you act as if there has never been perimeter players who put up massive scoring numbers prior to the rule change, when the truth is there has always been plenty. the rule changes helped to an extent i dont disagree, but id say the bigger factor by far was the success off michael jordan. coaches realized that running plays through wings allows for far more versatility on offense. young wing players grew up wanting to imitate mike. therefore in middle school, high school, AAU, etc... coaches began focusing offenses more on wings than on big men, resulting in drafts in the later 90s having an increase in skilled wing players, and a decrease in skilled big men. you seriously think that there was a remotely comparable number of skilled big men in the drafts from 96-05, compared to 85-95? or a comparable number of skilled wing players in drafts from 85-95, compare to 96-05? please. the big man was being phased out, while the wing was being more incorporated well before the rule change was made.

and even then, as has been clearly noted a number of times by multiple people, immediately after hand-checking was toned down, zone was allowed, which received plenty of complaints from perimeter players that it made it much tougher offensively. not to mention, players had been figuring out that its not hard to beat a handcheck by simply swiping away at the arm, and then it pretty much was a wide open lane to the basket because it frequently throws the defenders balance off. oh and of course players figuring out loopholes in the hand-checking rule anyways with swingthrough fouls. :lmao harden and KD would average 25 FTs a game if blatant handchecking were actually used on them consistently.

truth is, handchecking never worked against elite scorers. its simply a coverup for slower players, or guys with poor defensive footwork. and it only works against people who aren't particularly good at scoring anyways. lets not act like elite defenders like payton, pippen or rodman ever successfully shut down elite scoring wings like jordan, dominique, penny, kobe, clyde. maybe frustrate them for a game or a quarter, but that was about the extent of it. they all ultimately got ate up just like any other defender.

[lefty]

Hand checking is one of the biggest BS myths in sports


Not to mention refs actually called hand checking in the 90s

[Dirks_Finale]

Handchecking was one thing -- but often times you got a guy holding you with one hand and smashing you in the nuts with the other. Makes things difficult out there, lol. Just ask anyone who was guarded by John Stockton. If you are bored, go look it up on YT.

That was in the 80's. The 90's were a more mild version of the same. Absolutely not a myth.

[lefty]

If one has to hand check while grabbing someone in the nuts then he can't play defesne for shit

[Neo.]

Handchecking was one thing -- but often times you got a guy holding you with one hand and smashing you in the nuts with the other. Makes things difficult out there, lol. Just ask anyone who was guarded by John Stockton. If you are bored, go look it up on YT

this is the exact type of revisionist history that drives people nuts. taking one picture of a guy hitting jordans nuts = ZOMG EVERY POSSESSION YOU HAD TO BE PREPARED FOR A NUTSHOT AND DECAPITATION BY THE WEAKSIDE SHOTBLOCKER, EVERYONE LITERALLY NEARLY DIED WHEN PLAYING BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND 90s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!

sure, stockton was dirty. very clear and obvious. but lets not act like he was just shutting elite scorers down every night (or any night for that matter). and lets also not act like modern players don't have their own subtle dirty tricks and ways to piss opponents off. there is plenty going on at all times, players today have just found their own ways of hiding it, and will likely be exposed in books, reports and documentaries in years to come, as is always the case.


That was in the 80's. The 90's were a more mild version of the same. Absolutely not a myth.

:lmao literally a crock of horsecrap. one could easily argue that the 90s were the more physical dirty era overall, set up largely by what the pistons did to end the 80s.

[lefty]

this is the exact type of revisionist history that drives people nuts. taking one picture of a guy hitting jordans nuts = ZOMG EVERY POSSESSION YOU HAD TO BE PREPARED FOR A NUTSHOT AND DECAPITATION BY THE WEAKSIDE SHOTBLOCKER, EVERYONE LITERALLY NEARLY DIED WHEN PLAYING BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND 90s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!

sure, stockton was dirty. very clear and obvious. but lets not act like he was just shutting elite scorers down every night (or any night for that matter). and lets also not act like modern players don't have their own subtle dirty tricks and ways to piss opponents off. there is plenty going on at all times, players today have just found their own ways of hiding it, and will likely be exposed in books, reports and documentaries in years to come, as is always the case.



:lmao literally a crock of horsecrap. one could easily argue that the 90s were the more physical dirty era overall, set up largely by what the pistons did to end the 80s.
Exactly

People watch those highlight videos and assume a player was beheaded every time he touched the ball which wasn't always the case

I have seen dirty/physcial plays in the NBA during the last few years too; I can make a compilcation video and 20 years from now someone will watch and say "the 2020's were mch physical herp derp"

[Neo.]

I said it was the main reason. Not sole reason.m
And yes everybody wanted to be like mike so the league changed the rules to speed that up.
Check the year the perimeter illegal rules changed (00-01). Pretty much all notable perimeter player had a major increase in scoring that year. Stackhouse, Pierce, Iverson, Kobe, tmac, carter, Allen. 7 of the top ten scorers that year were wing players and 1 of the remaining 3 bigs are known to operate in the perimeter (Antawn Jamison) only Shaq (monster) and Weber (still has terrific perimeter skills) were true bigs.

The previous year? Only 5 out of the top 10.

So it’s pretty obvious the rule changes had a huge impact on perimeter scoring.


but 2000-01 was the only year where the scoring average of perimeter players jumped rather dramatically all in one year, with more perimeter players being top scorers, and with one of the most perimeter friendly rule change designed to increase scoring enacted.

lol for good measure i went back and examined these stats only to realize that the "evidence" that you presented that the rule change is the far and away the biggest reason for increased perimeter play is even more trash than i initially thought

your claim is that the league went from five big men, low post players being the the top 10 PPG in 99-00, to two in 00-01, and that we've never even remotely seen a change like this before. so there were three big guys who dropped off the list between those years: Malone, KG and Timmy

first, lets not kid ourselves into thinking KG was a true low post player, he was about as perimeter oriented of a big man as there was in the league. his "low post" buckets was mostly putbacks. he clearly favored using his perimeter skills and shooting long fadeaways. but for the sake of argument, we will consider KG as a low post scorer

at 9 and 10 on the list of top 10 ppg in 99-00 was KG and Duncan. the next four guys (11-14: Finley, Kobe, Marbury, Ray) were all within 1.1 ppg of being ahead of both KG and Timmy. it's not like there was some massive margin to overcome here.

also karl malone was 37 years old. yep, im sure age had nothing to do with his scoring drop :rolleyes (cue a highly funny and original joke from ambchang about emojis to avoid addressing how trash his point is)


lets also consider what happened the next year. in 01-02, timmy and karl ended up right back on the top 10 (oddly enough, Karl being back on there despite another drop in scoring average), and if not for missing 30 games for injury, webber would have qualified to be in that list too, bumping it back up to 4 of the top 10 ppg scorers being bigs. based off your conclusion, i figured even more perimeter players would have ended up on the list, or at the very least, the list standing pat. it didnt. same thing for 02-03.

well how about we rewind in time a bit now? in 98-99, there were 4, arguably 5 low post oriented scorers in the top 10. 97-98, same thing, 4, arguably 5. then 96-97? hm, it drops to 3, with just Malone, Olajuwon and Ewing, but shaq missed some games so lets add him and the number is 4; a drop regardless. then 95-96 8 of them top 10 were post oriented, and that's generally how it was prior to that. so it appears the big adjustment from bigs to wings began not in 00-01, but in 96-97 (where it dropped from 8 of the top 10 ppg scorers being low post big men, to 4, which is a bigger drop than 5 down to 2, only to go back up to 4 the next couple years), where we saw Iverson enter the league, and then some jumps in scoring from Glen Rice (5ppg increase), Spreewell (5ppg increase), Kendall Gill (nearly 8ppg increase), and Payton (2.5 ppg increase), along with quite a few other perimeter players having noticeable jumps in scoring but didn't quite crack the top 10, while Robinson and Barkley began to age out. and the league steadily evolved from there.

and what was the main reason for so many jumps in perimeter scoring in 96-97? i guess we could chalk it up to the fact that teams were taking more advantage of the shortened 3pt line. or maybe its simply a matter of perimeter scoring being proven to be more effective than a slow paced, dump-it-down offense, resulting in more skilled perimeter players entering the league and developing, while big men were aging out and not being replaced due to less skilled big men in the pipeline.

[Neo.]

oh and also of note, many years in the 80s, the top ppg scorers were wings and perimeter players. the league was also full of offense at that time, yet still had handchecking and allowed dirty fouls (which in the minds of some is apparently the absolute kryptonite of wing players, rendering them completely incapable of being good scorers). interesting. i wonder if any of it had to do with strategy and style of play. or maybe it was all rule changes.

[Dirks_Finale]

this is the exact type of revisionist history that drives people nuts. taking one picture of a guy hitting jordans nuts = ZOMG EVERY POSSESSION YOU HAD TO BE PREPARED FOR A NUTSHOT AND DECAPITATION BY THE WEAKSIDE SHOTBLOCKER, EVERYONE LITERALLY NEARLY DIED WHEN PLAYING BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND 90s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!

sure, stockton was dirty. very clear and obvious. but lets not act like he was just shutting elite scorers down every night (or any night for that matter). and lets also not act like modern players don't have their own subtle dirty tricks and ways to piss opponents off. there is plenty going on at all times, players today have just found their own ways of hiding it, and will likely be exposed in books, reports and documentaries in years to come, as is always the case.
.


Yeah, now they sleep with each other's wives and make 200 burner accounts on twitter agreeing with and defending themselves. Plenty of time for that with all this load managing.

[Neo.]

Yeah, now they sleep with each other's wives and make 200 burner accounts on twitter agreeing with and defending themselves. Plenty of time for that with all this load managing.

clever :toast

[Fabbs]

What is Jordans medical condition with his eyes?

[Dirks_Finale]

What is Jordans medical condition with his eyes?

Wondering the same. Liver condition?

[Killakobe81]

Wondering the same. Liver condition?


my wife is a nurse practicioner she speculated the same ...

[Killakobe81]

We about to get in to the "shits" Horace says MJ denied him food based off his play and its getting traction ...Shannon sharpe says he don't give two fucks how many PPG MJ had he was fighting him for some shit like that.

I know many defend MJ no matter what and have mocked through "Mj was to mean for you new age hoops fans narrative" ...but that shit is over the line ...that is how bad owners treat dogs or abusers treat children or spouses when they step out of line ...

Now to be fair ... I have heard of other athletes/coaches having a winner's buffet table stuff like that in football but as a grown man that are supposed to be equals in theory ... ?
Im with Shay, we fighting on this one.

[Killakobe81]

shay also says Horace had more dirt ...but he didn't feel comfortable sharing some of the extra things MJ did to him ... but will have him on to sharethem once Fox studios opens back up

[Dirks_Finale]

I've always felt Horace was a real good dude. Of course, impossible to tell as I do not know him personally, but he just gives me that feel.

And I can say...after watching the first 6 episodes, that's maybe the one thing I am taking away from this. Jordan was a even bigger prick than I realized -- I already knew he was jerk based off his repulsive HOF speech. But to treat Horace like crap and put him on blast 20-30 years after the fact is beyond wrong. Get over it already. If I were Horace, I would respond by telling MJ, let my name taste like ass when you speak it. I'm sure Jordan wouldn't meet him face to face and talk that mess. Hiding behind his security team lol.

And Krause -- Jordan berated him on the bus. But what was Krause doing on that bus in the first place? Does RC Buford follow the Spurs around everywhere they go like a lost puppy dog?? Doubtful as he is more professional and less ego driven. Krause pretty much asked for it. So can't defend that guy.

Despite Jordan's character flaws, he is still the GOAT to me as I care more about results than your personal life. I do not see Lebron as a close #2 based off his lack of killer instinct and NBA finals flops.. I am not even ready to say he is #2. I'd probably take Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan and Kareem over him if we are talking best of all time. Wilt might have been better as well but never seen him play so not sure.

[Dirks_Finale]

Alcoholism was the first thing that came to mind once I saw how jaundiced they were.

But who knows, he doesn't look like a slob or anything. I think he still takes care of himself overall.


my wife is a nurese practicioner she speculated the same ...

[lefty]

my wife is a nurese practicioner she speculated the same ...
Pics or it didn't happen

[FrostKing]

I've always felt Horace was a real good dude. Of course, impossible to tell as I do not know him personally, but he just gives me that feel.

And I can say...after watching the first 6 episodes, that's maybe the one thing I am taking away from this. Jordan was a even bigger prick than I realized -- I already knew he was jerk based off his repulsive HOF speech. But to treat Horace like crap and put him on blast 20-30 years after the fact is beyond wrong. Get over it already. If I were Horace, I would respond by telling MJ, let my name taste like ass when you speak it. I'm sure Jordan wouldn't meet him face to face and talk that mess. Hiding behind his security team lol.

And Krause -- Jordan berated him on the bus. But what was Krause doing on that bus in the first place? Does RC Buford follow the Spurs around everywhere they go like a lost puppy dog?? Doubtful as he is more professional and less ego driven. Krause pretty much asked for it. So can't defend that guy.

Despite Jordan's character flaws, he is still the GOAT to me as I care more about results than your personal life. I do not see Lebron as a close #2 based off his lack of killer instinct and NBA finals flops.. I am not even ready to say he is #2. I'd probably take Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan and Kareem over him if we are talking best of all time. Wilt might have been better as well but never seen him play so not sure.
Possibly I missed it but didn't Jordan simply state "that was Grant"?

Maybe Grant wasn't the only one but are we to believe MJ picked on Horace worse than say Pippen? And I mean picked on for reasons not connected to his performance on the court?

Fellas this is documentary about 1980-2000 Chicago Bulls. Do you want to know what happened or do you prefer white washed version?

[Dirks_Finale]

He said "that was Horace".

And I have been listening to the talking sports heads and the word is that MJ pretty much treated Horace like a whipping boy during his time there.

Didn't Orlando carry Horace off the floor in mad celebration in 95 after they beat the bulls? Maybe Jordan is still salty about that.


Possibly I missed it but didn't Jordan simply state "that was Grant"?

Maybe Grant wasn't the only one but are we to believe MJ picked on Horace worse than say Pippen? And I mean picked on for reasons not connected to his performance on the court?

Fellas this is documentary about 1980-2000 Chicago Bulls. Do you want to know what happened or do you prefer white washed version?

[FrostKing]

He said "that was Horace".

And I have been listening to the talking sports heads and the word is that MJ pretty much treated Horace like a whipping boy during his time there.

Didn't Orlando carry Horace off the floor in mad celebration in 95 after they beat the bulls? Maybe Jordan is still salty about that.
MJ is clearly salty that Horace talked. Yes they carried him off and I also always wondered why

Unlike Pippen, Horace was strictly a product of Jordan's Bulls. Grant was 1 tier above Luc Longley

[Dirks_Finale]

Barkley says Horace was a better player than Rodman. Do you agree?


MJ is clearly salty that Horace talked. Yes they carried him off and I also always wondered why

Unlike Pippen, Horace was strictly a product of Jordan's Bulls. Grant was 1 tier above Luc Longley

[FrostKing]

Barkley says Horace was a better player than Rodman. Do you agree?
Horace is a 1x All Star

I would take Kukoc over him

[Neo.]

horace was highly underrated and underappreciated. reminds me of shawn marion in how much they both got overlooked for being very solid overall players and great glue guys

[lefty]

Unlike Pippen, Horace was strictly a product of Jordan's Bulls. Grant was 1 tier above Luc Longley

Eeerrrr no

[hitmanyr2k]

MJ is clearly salty that Horace talked. Yes they carried him off and I also always wondered why

Unlike Pippen, Horace was strictly a product of Jordan's Bulls. Grant was 1 tier above Luc Longley

Carrying Horace off the floor had nothing to do with Jordan. Jerry Krause low-balled Horace on contract negotiations all through 1994. Then right before the playoffs (which was shitty timing) Krause actually publicly named PFs that he thought were better than Horace. From that point on negotiations soured and Horace mentally checked out. He wasn't even the same player during the playoffs. So he went to Orlando for free agency and when the Magic eliminated the Bulls from the playoffs the Magic players lifted Horace and celebrated on the Bull's home floor as a big "fuck you" to Krause.

[Killakobe81]

Pics or it didn't happen

LOL what would that prove?

[lefty]

LOL what would that prove?
We want to see if your wife is hot or not tbh

[FrostKing]

https://youtu.be/nuepAl8yizQ

[FrostKing]

https://youtu.be/8NSpgbPcxoU

[Dirks_Finale]

Pippen demsonstrating his character flaws.



https://youtu.be/8NSpgbPcxoU

[FrostKing]

Pippen demsonstrating his character flaws.
Pinned against each other. It wasn't until the end that they realized their ability together.

Kukoc should have pushed his role more though. I don't think Toni reached his potential til the 76ers.

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah I think he lacked confience thanks to the situation with the bulls.

Incredible talent.

Did everything but defend.

Put him on a lottery team straight from Europe and he is a 25-5-5 player, imo.


Pinned against each other. It wasn't until the end that they realized their ability together.

Kukoc should have pushed his role more though. I don't think Toni reached his potential til the 76ers.

[FrostKing]

Yeah I think he lacked confience thanks to the situation with the bulls.

Incredible talent.

Did everything but defend.

Put him on a lottery team straight from Europe and he is a 25-5-5 player, imo.
I really hope the documentary returns to him but it probably won't. He was the 2nd scorer in 1998 playoff run.

Kukoc was the first Bulls jersey I purchased ofcourse. He was ideal in the Bulls triangle.

[lefty]

https://youtu.be/nuepAl8yizQ

Jordan destroying a rookie scrub!

Amazing!

[lefty]

I really hope the documentary returns to him but it probably won't. He was the 2nd scorer in 1998 playoff run.

Kukoc was the first Bulls jersey I purchased ofcourse. He was ideal in the Bulls triangle.

I still don’t understand why Jordan took the last shot of game 5 in the 98 Finals

Kukoc was also a clutch shooter and he barely missed that night, it should have been him taking the last shot imo

[Dirks_Finale]

.

[Dirks_Finale]

I had to look up Corey Benjamin as I did not remember who he was lol


Jordan destroying a rookie scrub!

Amazing!

[FrostKing]

Jordan destroying a rookie scrub!

Amazing!
Footage of Jordan...in a Jordan thread. No need to turn everything into a pissing contest.

[lefty]

Footage of Jordan...in a Jordan thread. No need to turn everything into a pissing contest.

I started this thread, I can post whatever I want :lol

[FrostKing]

I started this thread, I can post whatever I want :lol
Grab a bar stool. Lets chat



What fuels your rivalry with Jordan?

On the road. 4.9 seconds. Ball in Kobe or Lebron hands?

Which color is your passport?

[lefty]

Grab a bar stool. Lets chat



What fuels your rivalry with Jordan?

On the road. 4.9 seconds. Ball in Kobe or Lebron hands?

Which color is your passport?

- Nothing against MJ, it’s just that the people use narratives against Lebron but somehow those same narratives don’t apply to Jordan. It’s a one way street and that pisses me off lol

- Larry Bird

- My passport is green
Or blue
I don’t remember

[FrostKing]

- Nothing against MJ, it’s just that the people use narratives against Lebron but somehow those same narratives don’t apply to Jordan. It’s a one way street and that pisses me off lol

- Larry Bird

- My passport is green
Or blue
I don’t remember
Excellent, well done dawgy.
We all have bias. Playing puppet master of favoritism.

Am I wrong to assume you are hyping up Lebron because this is a 2.5 loser to your favorite team?

I repeat. Totally fair & understandable. A little weird considering he is now a Laker but I think I understand. Am I wrong?