The Last Dance documentary

[lefty]

Excellent, well done dawgy.
We all have bias. Playing puppet master of favoritism.

Am I wrong to assume you are hyping up Lebron because this is a 2.5 loser to your favorite team?

I repeat. Totally fair & understandable. A little weird considering he is now a Laker but I think I understand. Am I wrong?

I’m not hyping up Lebron either tbh, I just appreciate great players

[FrostKing]

I’m not hyping up Lebron either tbh, I just appreciate great players
Not a slam but I believe you are regarded as the current Lebron hype man. I respect because I recognize your uphill battle

[Dirks_Finale]

Off topic -- but as a bulls fan, were you salty when MJ played for the Wizards?


Not a slam but I believe you are regarded as the current Lebron hype man. I respect because I recognize your uphill battle

[Neo.]

- Nothing against MJ, it’s just that the people use narratives against Lebron but somehow those same narratives don’t apply to Jordan. It’s a one way street and that pisses me off lol


this

[FrostKing]

Off topic -- but as a bulls fan, were you salty when MJ played for the Wizards?
At the time I didn't like it but fortunately Wizards felt like an expansion team. In hindsight I should have cherished the ability to see him play one last time.

[Dirks_Finale]

I can recall fans thinking that Wizard Jordan would tarnish Bull Jordan's legacy. Do you feel like it had any negative effect on his legacy?


At the time I didn't like it but fortunately Wizards felt like an expansion team. In hindsight I should have cherished the ability to see him play one last time.

[FrostKing]

I can recall fans thinking that Wizard Jordan would tarnish Bull Jordan's legacy. Do you feel like it had any negative effect on his legacy?
I thought so as well. Well for a number of reasons his time with Wizards is mostly forgotten. He put up good numbers for his age so maybe that is overwhelmingly why vast majority of people consider his jumper in Game6 his final appearance. What if the Wizards qualified for playoffs and were swept. Or what if he had 1 last moment in the Playoffs while wearing Wizard uniform. But then people would have that image in their minds. I am willing to bet a significant portion of young generation doesn't even know he played for Wiz

[Dirks_Finale]

I am willing to bet a significant portion of young generation doesn't even know he played for Wiz I think it's a safe assumption.

[phxspurfan]

what time is it?



game time woo?

[Play Boban]

Nrgegy

[140]

This doc :wow

[Dirks_Finale]

This doc :wow

Love how everyone is letting their hair down and keeping it 100

[dbreiden83080]

Probably my least favorite of the episodes. Jordan really came off overly arrogant in these episodes. I get about the mentality and all that but it’s a little much for me. Gary Payton obviously played him well and of course he dismisses that as bullshit. Basically says the only reason he didn’t play well for two games is he was thinking about Father’s Day. Whatever Mike. You’re not infallible.

[lefty]

1259665354818715655

[lefty]

1259675286536323072

[LakerHater]

https://abs.twimg.com/hashflags/TheLastDance2020/TheLastDance2020.png

[Dirks_Finale]

Mark Jackson has been reading spurstalk and has successfully refuted lefty. Starts at 1:15


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moaNWY_NQxM&t=1337s

[lefty]

:lol I expected better than that

[Dirks_Finale]

:lol I expected better than that

Travis Best in this era of zero rim protection = 20ppg 8apg and 10x NBA all star :lol

[FrostKing]

Stephen A Smith argues this documentary makes Pippen look negatively

[lefty]

Travis Best in this era of zero rim protection = 20ppg 8apg and 10 NBA all star :lol
Let's see Travis Best against zone D and superior athletes/defensive schemes and constant mismatches

The same Travis Best who, in a crucial game 4 of the 2000 Finals, couldn't beat Shaq 1 on 1 on a mismatch at the end regulation, costing his team a win :lol

Dirbble dribble dribble brick :lol

[lefty]

Stephen A Smith argues this documentary makes Pippen look negatively
If he had 2 brain cells SAS would have noticed it makes everybody but Jordan look bad

[FrostKing]

Let's see Travis Best against zone D and superior athletes/defensive schemes and constant mismatches

The same Travis Best who, in a crucial game 4 of the 2000 Finals, couldn't beat Shaq 1 on 1 on a mismatch at the end regulation, costing his team a win :lol

Dirbble dribble dribble brick :lol
Shaq was a 90s rim protector. You are helping OPs argument

[Play Boban]

If he had 2 brain cells SAS would have noticed it makes everybody but Jordan ook bad
This is an MJ fluff propaganda piece plain and simple. Disgusting.c I noycotmot.

[FrostKing]

If he had 2 brain cells SAS would have noticed it makes everybody but Jordan ook bad
Rodman looks good. Same with Jud :king

[lefty]

Shaq was a 90s rim protector. You are helping OPs argument
THe play I'm referring to was happening on the perimeter, Best should have beaten him

So I'm not helping his argument at all

[Dirks_Finale]

Shaq was a 90s rim protector. You are helping OPs argument

[Neo.]

Travis Best in this era of zero rim protection = 20ppg 8apg and 10 NBA all star :lol


Shaq was a 90s rim protector. You are helping OPs argument

you both literally get stupider by the day

[Dirks_Finale]

Rodman looks good. Same with Jud :king

How does it make Phil look? Uninvolved hippie on the sidelines as Jordan runs the show? Or genuis who carefully managed monster egos?

[Dirks_Finale]

you both literally get stupider by the day

Hey Neo. Sounds as though you are having another pleasant day :lol

[lefty]

you both literally get stupider by the day

[Neo.]

Hey Neo. Sounds as though you are having another pleasant day :lol

as must you, to be so absent minded to not understand that travis best had such little skill that he couldnt beat shaq in a one-on-one situation for a bucket, yet you think he would actually be a better player in the modern game where guards who can't beat a slow lumbering big man are pretty much phased out of PT on any decent team

[FrostKing]

as must you, to be so absent minded to not understand that travis best had such little skill that he couldnt beat shaq in a one-on-one situation for a bucket, yet you think he would actually be a better player in the modern game where guards who can't beat a slow lumbering big man are pretty much phased out of PT on any decent team
Doubt Travis would be any worse than Trae Young, whom is an All Star in today's game

[Dirks_Finale]

as must you, to be so absent minded to not understand that travis best had such little skill that he couldnt beat shaq in a one-on-one situation for a bucket, yet you think he would actually be a better player in the modern game where guards who can't beat a slow lumbering big man are pretty much phased out of PT on any decent team

So the most dominant and athletic center in NBA history is now a slow lumbering big man :lol I've heard it all now

[Neo.]

Doubt Travis would be any worse than Trae Young, whom is an All Star in today's game

trae young would average 60 in mikes day


So the most dominant and athletic center in NBA history is now a slow lumbering big man :lol I've heard it all now

yes, being offensively dominant has so much to do with your on-ball defense on a point guard. your brilliance overwhelms me

he was not the most athletic center in nba history, and by around 2000 he picked up a lot of weight and was nowhere nearly as mobile as he was earlier in his career

although that was irrelevant at this point. the fact that you stood by frosts post that shaq was a 90s rim protector having anything whatsoever to do with his ability to guard on the perimeter shows how retarded you actually are

[Dirks_Finale]

trae young would average 60 in mikes day



yes, being offensively dominant has so much to do with your on-ball defense on a point guard. your brilliance overwhelms me

he was not the most athletic center in nba history, and by around 2000 he picked up a lot of weight and was nowhere nearly as mobile as he was earlier in his career

although that was irrelevant at this point. the fact that you stood by frosts post that shaq was a 90s rim protector having anything whatsoever to do with his ability to guard on the perimeter shows how retarded you actually are

You're the wise guy claiming MVP Shaq, best shape of his life was a lumbering oaf :lol yeah, you're right, he was no more athletic than Mark Eaton right? Seriously, in 2000 he could collapse inside and stop many people. You probably don't remember this cause you are so in love with today's centers, you know 6'3 PJ Tucker and Draymond. Such impressive wingspans there. How do today's player's possibly score on those guys

[Dirks_Finale]

trae young would average 60 in beyond ridiculous. He's not even Mahmoud Abdul Rauf quality. :lol Now you're just trolling

[Neo.]

You're the wise guy claiming MVP Shaq, best shape of his life

completely untrue :lmao


was a lumbering oaf :lol yeah

didnt say that at all but i supposed i see how you could completely misunderstand the point, considering you completely misunderstood leftys very obvious point


you're right, he was no more athletic than Mark Eaton right?

never said anything remotely close to that at all. why so butthurt?


Seriously, in 2000 he could collapse inside and stop many people.

many people may include a mediocre player like travis best, but no one elite like CP3 or Steph, who you pretty much compared him two by alleging that he would average 20/8 and 10-allstars in today's league.


You probably don't remember this cause you are so in love with today's centers, you know 6'3 PJ Tucker and Draymond.

hm did i ever defend todays centers at any point? man youre seriously butthurt :lmao


Such impressive wingspans there. How do today's player's possibly score on those guys

probably the same way a guy like mitch richmond was able to do it on 90s centers for years

[Dirks_Finale]

Shaq was most definitely in the best shape of his life. He said so himself...Phil said the same. His defense that year was incredible and he was voted, almost unanimous MVP. He could hang with perimeter players on switches as he was mobile enough to do so. And everyone had hesitations driving on him as they knew they would be sore in the morning. Not sure which Shaq you guys were watching but 2000 version was a damn beast

Other old school players who could be 20 ppg scorers
In this inflated stats, Trae Young era:

Sedale Threatt
Kenny Smith
Derrick McKey
Dan Majerle
Terry Mills

Antoine Walker would probably average 30 in this era :lol

[Neo.]

Shaq was most definitely in the best shape of his life. He said so himself...Phil said the same. His defense that year was incredible and he was voted, almost unanimous MVP. He could hang with perimeter players on switches as he was mobile enough to do so. And everyone had hesitations driving on him as they knew they would be sore in the morning. Not sure which Shaq you guys were watching but 2000 version was a damn beast

Other old school players who could be 20 ppg scorers
In this inflated stats, Trae Young era:

Sedale Threatt
Kenny Smith
Derrick McKey
Dan Majerle
Terry Mills

Antoine Walker would probably average 30 in this era :lol

jj barea would average 35 in the 80s. dude took elbows to the ribs and clotheslines to the face. big men? pfft nothing.

[daslicer]

Shaq was most definitely in the best shape of his life. He said so himself...Phil said the same. His defense that year was incredible and he was voted, almost unanimous MVP. He could hang with perimeter players on switches as he was mobile enough to do so. And everyone had hesitations driving on him as they knew they would be sore in the morning. Not sure which Shaq you guys were watching but 2000 version was a damn beast

Other old school players who could be 20 ppg scorers
In this inflated stats, Trae Young era:

Sedale Threatt
Kenny Smith
Derrick McKey
Dan Majerle
Terry Mills

Antoine Walker would probably average 30 in this era :lol

Glen Rice would be a 30 point scorer in this era.

[FrostKing]

Toni Kukoc after Episode 9 will also look really good in this series.

If you notice in the clips, he's taking tip off for Chicago

[FrostKing]

https://youtu.be/dARp3MYkeQM

[FrostKing]

Episodes 7 & 8

Pippen confused everyone with his - it was the wrong decision but I would do it again response to the 94 Playoff game

Baseball, ya without the MLB Strike MJ probably doesn't return til 1996 and isn't as dominant. I do believe MJ would have cracked the White Sox pro team.

Felt they did a quality job covering his fathers murder. But it was finished a little hazy? The warping allows the story to touch on uncomfortable topics and transition.


Michael's emotional defense to the price of winning. This is sport. Reminded me of an Olympian that competes for love of nation/blood. Most emotional episode.

[Dirks_Finale]

Glen Rice would be a 30 point scorer in this era.

Easily...

[Dirks_Finale]

Damn, I miss the NBA on NBC. Their whole presentation was A++++



https://youtu.be/dARp3MYkeQM

[Dirks_Finale]

Pippen confused everyone with his - it was the wrong decision but I would do it again response to the 94 Playoff game


I don't think Pippen understood the significance of the docuseries. This was an opportunity to repair his image and he squandered it.

[FrostKing]

I don't think Pippen understood the significance of the docuseries. This was an opportunity to repair his image and he squandered it.
Yes. He seems taken back by the questions. I bet all the Krause content made him shell up. He looks stiff and slow. Shoulda poured a drink and chatted on his living eulogy

[lefty]

:lol by the way, that “way to go Craig (Sager)” in the opening of episode 7

[ambchang]

MJ is clearly salty that Horace talked. Yes they carried him off and I also always wondered why

Unlike Pippen, Horace was strictly a product of Jordan's Bulls. Grant was 1 tier above Luc Longley

Come on man. Horace Grant was a solid defender, rebounder, and can shoot from midrange well. He can finish somewhat around the basket, had decent hands. He was a decent passer as well. he had a decent run in Orlando as well.

He's like a more athletic, less physical/crazy Charles Oakley.

[ambchang]

lol what? it never once disappeared. in fact it has basically been at the root of this whole discussion

Must have missed it, when did you address how the league went from having 5 top ten scorers being post players to having 8 overnight?


lmao so you are saying that it was virtually impossible for perimeter oriented players to score lots of points prior to the rule change

I said that? Talk about a strawman.


absolutely true. but also has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he was clearly the #3 scorer on the team behind shaq and kobe. losing him whether its due to departure, or due to lack of productivity doesnt change the fact that the scoring punch he brought to the team needed to be replaced. it was very clear that kobe handled the majority of that difference by having an increased share in the offense.

Shaq scored more too, so did Fisher and Fox


hm where was anything like that even remotely hinted? if i recall, YOU were the one who claimed that rices scoring was replaced by fox and fisher. i provided proof that kobe handled some of it as well. but at no time did i claim that people playing the same position picked up the scoring slack. would you like to provide proof of anyone on the team who picked up the slack more than kobe did?

What? Didn't you came up with Kobe picked up that scoring? if that's not your argument, I am not sure what your argument is then.

[QUOTE=Neo.;10139777]you're the one who is making this claim that the rule changes is the single biggest contributor, and that there has NEVER been a year where 6-7 wing players had a dramatic scoring increase. would you like to back this up with some proof?

Ummm ... I can't find another year like that? You want to find another year that did?


:lmao you act as if there has never been perimeter players who put up massive scoring numbers prior to the rule change, when the truth is there has always been plenty. the rule changes helped to an extent i dont disagree, but id say the bigger factor by far was the success off michael jordan. coaches realized that running plays through wings allows for far more versatility on offense. young wing players grew up wanting to imitate mike. therefore in middle school, high school, AAU, etc... coaches began focusing offenses more on wings than on big men, resulting in drafts in the later 90s having an increase in skilled wing players, and a decrease in skilled big men. you seriously think that there was a remotely comparable number of skilled big men in the drafts from 96-05, compared to 85-95? or a comparable number of skilled wing players in drafts from 85-95, compare to 96-05? please. the big man was being phased out, while the wing was being more incorporated well before the rule change was made.

And they all decided to make that scoring jump at the same year?

And when did I ever say perimeter players can't? It's just that it's easier with rule changes because the rules were specifically changed to boost scoring, with perimeter scoring being the main focus. It wasn't even a secret, the league talked openly about having to change the rules because scoring was terrible. They changed it, scoring went up, the teams had to adapt defensive schemes to deal with it. Players like Jaren Jackson became useless overnight because they can no longer hand-check.


and even then, as has been clearly noted a number of times by multiple people, immediately after hand-checking was toned down, zone was allowed, which received plenty of complaints from perimeter players that it made it much tougher offensively. not to mention, players had been figuring out that its not hard to beat a handcheck by simply swiping away at the arm, and then it pretty much was a wide open lane to the basket because it frequently throws the defenders balance off. oh and of course players figuring out loopholes in the hand-checking rule anyways with swingthrough fouls. :lmao harden and KD would average 25 FTs a game if blatant handchecking were actually used on them consistently.

Yes, and scoring went down the following year because zone defense came into play. So does rule change have or does not have impact on perimeter players scoring? Do they only impact perimeter players scoring when it makes it tougher for perimeter players, but suggesting that they make it easier is sheer stupidity?


truth is, handchecking never worked against elite scorers. its simply a coverup for slower players, or guys with poor defensive footwork. and it only works against people who aren't particularly good at scoring anyways. lets not act like elite defenders like payton, pippen or rodman ever successfully shut down elite scoring wings like jordan, dominique, penny, kobe, clyde. maybe frustrate them for a game or a quarter, but that was about the extent of it. they all ultimately got ate up just like any other defender.

I am not exactly sure how you came to that conclusion. Payton had a significant impact on Jordan on the largest stage in the Finals. Pippen did that to Magic, Rodman and Dumars did it to Jordan in the playoffs.

Yes, handchecking benefits slow guys, they benefit quick guys too. How would it not benefit a quick guy when they have another weapon at their disposal?

Check the rule changes after the 98-99 season:

No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legallyobtained a position.
Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

How can this have no impact on perimeter defense, or at least a minor one? The league designed this to boost scoring.

[ambchang]

lol for good measure i went back and examined these stats only to realize that the "evidence" that you presented that the rule change is the far and away the biggest reason for increased perimeter play is even more trash than i initially thought

your claim is that the league went from five big men, low post players being the the top 10 PPG in 99-00, to two in 00-01, and that we've never even remotely seen a change like this before. so there were three big guys who dropped off the list between those years: Malone, KG and Timmy

first, lets not kid ourselves into thinking KG was a true low post player, he was about as perimeter oriented of a big man as there was in the league. his "low post" buckets was mostly putbacks. he clearly favored using his perimeter skills and shooting long fadeaways. but for the sake of argument, we will consider KG as a low post scorer

at 9 and 10 on the list of top 10 ppg in 99-00 was KG and Duncan. the next four guys (11-14: Finley, Kobe, Marbury, Ray) were all within 1.1 ppg of being ahead of both KG and Timmy. it's not like there was some massive margin to overcome here.

also karl malone was 37 years old. yep, im sure age had nothing to do with his scoring drop :rolleyes (cue a highly funny and original joke from ambchang about emojis to avoid addressing how trash his point is)


lets also consider what happened the next year. in 01-02, timmy and karl ended up right back on the top 10 (oddly enough, Karl being back on there despite another drop in scoring average), and if not for missing 30 games for injury, webber would have qualified to be in that list too, bumping it back up to 4 of the top 10 ppg scorers being bigs. based off your conclusion, i figured even more perimeter players would have ended up on the list, or at the very least, the list standing pat. it didnt. same thing for 02-03.

well how about we rewind in time a bit now? in 98-99, there were 4, arguably 5 low post oriented scorers in the top 10. 97-98, same thing, 4, arguably 5. then 96-97? hm, it drops to 3, with just Malone, Olajuwon and Ewing, but shaq missed some games so lets add him and the number is 4; a drop regardless. then 95-96 8 of them top 10 were post oriented, and that's generally how it was prior to that. so it appears the big adjustment from bigs to wings began not in 00-01, but in 96-97 (where it dropped from 8 of the top 10 ppg scorers being low post big men, to 4, which is a bigger drop than 5 down to 2, only to go back up to 4 the next couple years), where we saw Iverson enter the league, and then some jumps in scoring from Glen Rice (5ppg increase), Spreewell (5ppg increase), Kendall Gill (nearly 8ppg increase), and Payton (2.5 ppg increase), along with quite a few other perimeter players having noticeable jumps in scoring but didn't quite crack the top 10, while Robinson and Barkley began to age out. and the league steadily evolved from there.

and what was the main reason for so many jumps in perimeter scoring in 96-97? i guess we could chalk it up to the fact that teams were taking more advantage of the shortened 3pt line. or maybe its simply a matter of perimeter scoring being proven to be more effective than a slow paced, dump-it-down offense, resulting in more skilled perimeter players entering the league and developing, while big men were aging out and not being replaced due to less skilled big men in the pipeline.

Not a perimeter player doesn't mean a low post player.

If you want to argue Garnett isn't a low post player, he sure as hell wasn't a perimeter player.

[Neo.]

Must have missed it, when did you address how the league went from having 5 top ten scorers being post players to having 8 overnight?

i dont think either of us addressed the league going from having 5 top ten post scorers increasing to 8 overnight. but i do recall i showed that there was a big drop from the 95-96 season to the 96-97 season, where it went from 8 to 4. a much bigger drop than the 5 to 3/2 argument in 99-00 to 00-01 that you presented.


I said that? Talk about a strawman.

you said the "the rule changes enabled that". you did not say "the rule changes amongst other factors enabled that" or anything remotely close to that. so based off your quote, yes that is what you said.


Shaq scored more too, so did Fisher and Fox

actually, shaq scored a full point less per game. id tell you to do your research, but throughout our entire discussion, its abundantly clear that you don't, and prefer to just make things up to support your crappy arguments, in hopes someone doesnt call you out for your garbage


What? Didn't you came up with Kobe picked up that scoring? if that's not your argument, I am not sure what your argument is then.

i said he picked up some of it. i never said he picked it all up. in fact i very clearly claimed that fisher and fox also were other players who picked up the scoring. do you even read before you post this crap?


Ummm ... I can't find another year like that? You want to find another year that did?

i cant even find a single year that fits your claim, since i also proved that there werent 6-7 perimeter players who had a dramatic scoring increase. your claims showed there was 4 with large increases, a few others with minor increases, and one whom you claimed had a dramatic increase, actually had a decrease. great proof :toast


And they all decided to make that scoring jump at the same year?

if you take a greater number of shots per game, then simple logic says that theres a high chance you will have a scoring output increase. all those guys did. whether it was their choice, or the coaches choice, or someone elses choice, i cannot say. but what i can say, is they all took more shots, which resulted in more points.


And when did I ever say perimeter players can't? It's just that it's easier with rule changes because the rules were specifically changed to boost scoring, with perimeter scoring being the main focus. It wasn't even a secret, the league talked openly about having to change the rules because scoring was terrible. They changed it, scoring went up, the teams had to adapt defensive schemes to deal with it.

i dont disagree. i never did disagree. i just dont feel its the primary reason, and the only reason this discussion went on is because im tired of your usual shtick of posting lies and making up trash to back your weak arguments up. just admit you were wrong on some points and move on.


Players like Jaren Jackson became useless overnight because they can no longer hand-check.

its not like he was a particularly useful player to begin with. but im sure some of it also had to do with the fact that he was heading into his mid 30s when they made the rule. but no, it was solely "because they can no longer hand-check".


Yes, and scoring went down the following year because zone defense came into play. So does rule change have or does not have impact on perimeter players scoring? Do they only impact perimeter players scoring when it makes it tougher for perimeter players, but suggesting that they make it easier is sheer stupidity?

never said that at all. again, ive said the whole time that i dont disagree that removing hand checking helped to some degree. i dont think it did much to help elite scorers, since sometimes handchecking defenders can actually be an advantage since it often leads to poor defensive footwork and balance, as well as the fact that any elite scorer never had problems dealing with hand-checking to begin with.


I am not exactly sure how you came to that conclusion. Payton had a significant impact on Jordan on the largest stage in the Finals. Pippen did that to Magic, Rodman and Dumars did it to Jordan in the playoffs.

so it was purely handchecking that impacted those guys? so basically you are saying that other guys werent already handchecking them to begin with. so if only a few select players are handchecking, then why would it be some major league-wide defensive nuke that handchecking was more enforced, as you seem to suggest?

or maybe... just maybe... could it be that those guys were elite defenders who had exceptional athleticism, strength, balance and footwork that allowed them to match up better with these elite offensive players?


Yes, handchecking benefits slow guys, they benefit quick guys too. How would it not benefit a quick guy when they have another weapon at their disposal?

never said it wasnt beneficial. just that it wasnt much benefit for guarding guys like mike, nique, penny, kobe, clyde, and other elite perimeter scorers. they simply found ways to score, and often would use handchecking to their benefit by swiping at the handcheck to negate it and put the defender in poor defensive position.


Check the rule changes after the 98-99 season:

No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legallyobtained a position.
Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

How can this have no impact on perimeter defense, or at least a minor one? The league designed this to boost scoring.

never said it wasnt. just that its not the sole, or even primary reason why there are a lot of skilled perimeter scorers in the league today.

plus as lefty has brought out several times, handchecking had been banned a lot longer before, but eventually wasnt really enforced. in fact, back in 76-77, a rule change declared that handchecking would be allowed to an extent, as long as players didn't impede their opponents progress (which honestly seems to make handchecking kind of useless, since the whole point of it is to impede their progress), then it was banned in 78-79, and that's how the rule stood for years. obviously enforcement of the rule subsided over time, but then they began to enforce it more again in 94-95, gave more clarification in 00-01, more clarification in 04-05, and now that offense went back up, everyone is pretty much handchecking all over again, just not as blatantly. instead of putting hands on a player before they make their move, they wait until the drive starts, then if they make contact with each other, you can see any decent defender is using their hand to hold, grab and impede the opponents progress. maybe instead of just pointing at rule changes, watch the games, and you will see plenty of handchecking being done. for example, watch luka and you will see just how much he gets grabbed and handchecked since hes not as quick as other elite scorers, but has plenty of tricks on how to beat it.

[Neo.]

Not a perimeter player doesn't mean a low post player.

If you want to argue Garnett isn't a low post player, he sure as hell wasn't a perimeter player.

oh okay, so basically you have no way to refute the lies and made up claims you gave, except to argue "KG isn't a perimeter player :cry :cry :cry"

thanks for playing.

[ambchang]

i dont think either of us addressed the league going from having 5 top ten post scorers increasing to 8 overnight. but i do recall i showed that there was a big drop from the 95-96 season to the 96-97 season, where it went from 8 to 4. a much bigger drop than the 5 to 3/2 argument in 99-00 to 00-01 that you presented.

You mean the year when Shaq was not qualified because he didn't play enough games, Robinson got hurt, and Barkley started to miss significant games? The only one who really didn't have any major injury impacts but had a big drop off in points was Mourning.

The same couldn't be said of 99-00 to 00-01.



you said the "the rule changes enabled that". you did not say "the rule changes amongst other factors enabled that" or anything remotely close to that. so based off your quote, yes that is what you said.

You do know it is possible to do something without an agent to enable, right?


actually, shaq scored a full point less per game. id tell you to do your research, but throughout our entire discussion, its abundantly clear that you don't, and prefer to just make things up to support your crappy arguments, in hopes someone doesnt call you out for your garbage

My mistake, wrong year.


i said he picked up some of it. i never said he picked it all up. in fact i very clearly claimed that fisher and fox also were other players who picked up the scoring. do you even read before you post this crap?

So Kobe picked up 6 points, while the others didn't increase by as much? How do you figure?



i cant even find a single year that fits your claim, since i also proved that there werent 6-7 perimeter players who had a dramatic scoring increase. your claims showed there was 4 with large increases, a few others with minor increases, and one whom you claimed had a dramatic increase, actually had a decrease. great proof :toast

Oh wow, really, only 4 with large increases? I can see that absolutely positively blew my entire point out of the water.


if you take a greater number of shots per game, then simple logic says that theres a high chance you will have a scoring output increase. all those guys did. whether it was their choice, or the coaches choice, or someone elses choice, i cannot say. but what i can say, is they all took more shots, which resulted in more points.

Of course, and why would perimeter players get a larger percentage of the shots? Because the rules made it much easier to do so.

Simple logic also says that if a defender cannot physically grab and hold you, it's easier for you to score, and as such, smart teams will exploit that with good perimeter scorers.


i dont disagree. i never did disagree. i just dont feel its the primary reason, and the only reason this discussion went on is because im tired of your usual shtick of posting lies and making up trash to back your weak arguments up. just admit you were wrong on some points and move on.

So wait, you didn't agree it being the primary reason meant that my arguments are lies? What was the primary reason then? Was it that players wanted to be like Mike like you mentioned a few post ago?


its not like he was a particularly useful player to begin with. but im sure some of it also had to do with the fact that he was heading into his mid 30s when they made the rule. but no, it was solely "because they can no longer hand-check".

Do you know what solely means? You seem to have a penchant of picking one point, extrapolate, disprove that extrapolation and claim victory. It is amusing to say the least.


never said that at all. again, ive said the whole time that i dont disagree that removing hand checking helped to some degree. i dont think it did much to help elite scorers, since sometimes handchecking defenders can actually be an advantage since it often leads to poor defensive footwork and balance, as well as the fact that any elite scorer never had problems dealing with hand-checking to begin with.

You were saying something about posting lies and backing up the crap or something like that?

Pippen, one of the best perimeter defenders, seems to agree with me: https://www.basketballnetwork.net/pippen-on-how-the-hand-check-ban-changed-basketball/

But then you will go on and on about how it is arguable Pippen can be considered one of the greatest perimeter players of all time.


so it was purely handchecking that impacted those guys? so basically you are saying that other guys werent already handchecking them to begin with. so if only a few select players are handchecking, then why would it be some major league-wide defensive nuke that handchecking was more enforced, as you seem to suggest?

or maybe... just maybe... could it be that those guys were elite defenders who had exceptional athleticism, strength, balance and footwork that allowed them to match up better with these elite offensive players?

You really need help understanding when you should extrapolate and talk about purely, enablement, only, primary and such.

It's also comical because in the last post, you said "lets not act like elite defenders like payton, pippen or rodman ever successfully shut down elite scoring wings like jordan, dominique, penny, kobe, clyde. maybe frustrate them for a game or a quarter, but that was about the extent of it. they all ultimately got ate up just like any other defender.", but then now, it's about how they were exceptional athletes. Or are you going to talk about what "Shut down" means?


never said it wasnt beneficial. just that it wasnt much benefit for guarding guys like mike, nique, penny, kobe, clyde, and other elite perimeter scorers. they simply found ways to score, and often would use handchecking to their benefit by swiping at the handcheck to negate it and put the defender in poor defensive position.

Backup? Would love to see someone say that they loved being hand-checked because they can put the defender out of position.


never said it wasnt. just that its not the sole, or even primary reason why there are a lot of skilled perimeter scorers in the league today.

We will disagree on this. I see handchecking's demise helping perimeter players, and as such, teams put heavy emphasis in developing perimeter players, where every seasons in the past had around 5 of the top 10 scorers being low post players (in general) where it is mostly 2 or 3 players in today's league.


plus as lefty has brought out several times, handchecking had been banned a lot longer before, but eventually wasnt really enforced. in fact, back in 76-77, a rule change declared that handchecking would be allowed to an extent, as long as players didn't impede their opponents progress (which honestly seems to make handchecking kind of useless, since the whole point of it is to impede their progress), then it was banned in 78-79, and that's how the rule stood for years. obviously enforcement of the rule subsided over time, but then they began to enforce it more again in 94-95, gave more clarification in 00-01, more clarification in 04-05, and now that offense went back up, everyone is pretty much handchecking all over again, just not as blatantly. instead of putting hands on a player before they make their move, they wait until the drive starts, then if they make contact with each other, you can see any decent defender is using their hand to hold, grab and impede the opponents progress. maybe instead of just pointing at rule changes, watch the games, and you will see plenty of handchecking being done. for example, watch luka and you will see just how much he gets grabbed and handchecked since hes not as quick as other elite scorers, but has plenty of tricks on how to beat it.

Does your world only live in black and white? Of course handchecking lives on to some degree, it's impossible to call every call. But without handchecking as a primary defensive tool, perimeter scoring took off.


oh okay, so basically you have no way to refute the lies and made up claims you gave, except to argue "KG isn't a perimeter player :cry :cry :cry"

thanks for playing.

Point is, if you can't tell the difference between a Shaq, KG and Kobe in their offensive plays, there is no point in arguing.

If you do, apply that to your post, and retype it.

[Spurminator]

I feel like I never hear anyone propose the most likely reason Michael Jordan retired in 1993 to play baseball.

Someone made a bet with him that he couldn't make the Major Leagues.

[Spurtacular]

Take away the star calls, Jordan is a 43 FG% guy on a lower volume of shots.

[Neo.]

this is going to be my last reply to this.


You mean the year when Shaq was not qualified because he didn't play enough games, Robinson got hurt, and Barkley started to miss significant games? The only one who really didn't have any major injury impacts but had a big drop off in points was Mourning.

well if you actually read my post, you would have seen i addressed the shaq aspect and added him to the number

we have no idea what robinson would have scored, but we do know he was on the downhill of his career at that point. barkley was too, even more so. thats some major picking and choosing. not a shocker though, you do have a history of it.


The same couldn't be said of 99-00 to 00-01.

ah i get it. so injury is an acceptable excuse for a decrease in post scorers. but an actual decrease in post scorers (in that many of the previously dominant post scorers had retired or gotten old and less effective, and werent replaced with new ones because recent drafts had more wing talent than low post talent), isn't an acceptable excuse?

mind. blown.


You do know it is possible to do something without an agent to enable, right?

neat.


My mistake, wrong year.

lmao no it wasnt a "wrong year" mistake. it was you making crap up. if you simply looked at the stat, which any retard with a computer is capable of doing, then you would have seen. but no, you as usual, like to make stuff up to fit your agenda, hoping no one calls you out on it.


So Kobe picked up 6 points, while the others didn't increase by as much? How do you figure?

hm idk maybe because kobe is a better scorer than they were, so he picked up more of the scoring slack than the others? at this point youre literally just asking questions to hang on to god knows what, must be some weird pride or something you have


Oh wow, really, only 4 with large increases? I can see that absolutely positively blew my entire point out of the water.

well when you claimed it was 6-7, 4 is easily less.

especially when compared to the other year i pointed out, in 96-97, where i already mentioned three perimeter players with significant increases in scoring. lets find a few more, shall we?

doug christie had an increase of 7ppg. anthony peeler had an increase of 4.8ppg. eddie jones had an increase of 4.4ppg. david wesley had an increase of 4.5ppg. amongst others. so now there are actually more cases in 96-97 of perimeter scoring average increases, than 00-01.

granted, we could go back and forth doing this until we check the averages of every player (and im not about to do that, but if you are butthurt enough to do so, be my guest). point is, 00-01 was not the ONLY year with a large number of perimeter players having noticeable scoring increases, as you seem to suggest.


Of course, and why would perimeter players get a larger percentage of the shots? Because the rules made it much easier to do so.

Simple logic also says that if a defender cannot physically grab and hold you, it's easier for you to score, and as such, smart teams will exploit that with good perimeter scorers.

technically, by rule they were never allowed to do that to begin with. refs would just occasionally allow players to get away with it. oh wait, kind of like they do today.


So wait, you didn't agree it being the primary reason meant that my arguments are lies? What was the primary reason then? Was it that players wanted to be like Mike like you mentioned a few post ago?

no, the lies were the bits of "proof" you gave, much of which turned out to be incorrect. such as there never having been a year with such a drop off of low post scorers in the top 10 ppg scorers, or that ray allen had a significant scoring increase in 00-01, or that shaq increased his scoring output after glen rice left, or that there was never a year that had a massive number of perimeter players with significant scoring increases.

i feel the primary reason was that more talented perimeter players started being drafted, while there was a noticeable decrease in the amount of talented low post scorers.


Do you know what solely means? You seem to have a penchant of picking one point, extrapolate, disprove that extrapolation and claim victory. It is amusing to say the least.

lol not even addressing the point. but i guess in your world, jaren jackson is a high quality NBA player, whos career ended because he couldnt hand check anymore, when hundreds of other basketball players continued to be effective without the handcheck.


You were saying something about posting lies and backing up the crap or something like that?

Pippen, one of the best perimeter defenders, seems to agree with me: https://www.basketballnetwork.net/pippen-on-how-the-hand-check-ban-changed-basketball/

But then you will go on and on about how it is arguable Pippen can be considered one of the greatest perimeter players of all time.

idk why you keep going back to this point that ive repeatedly agreed about, that handchecking did have an overall effect on the league, and that it helped promote an increase in perimeter scoring.

i dont agree with the notion that many have that handchecking would suddenly make elite modern scorers ineffective, or that MJ would average 45 in todays league because theres no handchecking.

i dont agree that handchecking is the single biggest reason for perimeter play being a more focal point of offenses.


You really:cry need help understanding when you sh:cryould extrapolate and talk about purely, enab:crylement, only, primary and such.:cry:cry:cry


It's also comical because in the last post, you said "lets not act like elite defenders like payton, pippen or rodman ever successfully shut down elite scoring wings like jordan, dominique, penny, kobe, clyde. maybe frustrate them for a game or a quarter, but that was about the extent of it. they all ultimately got ate up just like any other defender.", but then now, it's about how they were exceptional athletes. Or are you going to talk about what "Shut down" means?

you tell me. did they shut down MJ? or did they simply make him work harder, perhaps resulting in the occasional bad game?


Backup? Would love to see someone say that they loved being hand-checked because they can put the defender out of position.

lmao talk about a strawman

anyone who has played a lick of organized basketball knows that is a basic fundamental taught to players on how to deal with handchecking.


We will disagree on this. I see handchecking's demise helping perimeter players, and as such, teams put heavy emphasis in developing perimeter players, where every seasons in the past had around 5 of the top 10 scorers being low post players (in general) where it is mostly 2 or 3 players in today's league.

fair enough. i obviously cant change your mind, nor can you change mine. i just wanted you to see that you posted a lot of lies and made up stuff.


Does your world on:cryly live in black and white? Of course handchecking lives on t:cryo some degree, it's impossible to call:cry every call.


But without handchecking as a primary defensive tool, perimeter scoring took off.

neat.


Point is, if you can't tell the difference between a Shaq, KG and Kobe in their offensive plays, there is no point in arguing.

If you do, apply that to your post, and retype it.

point is, quit posting lies and making stuff up. if you just personally dont care for a different style of basketball, so be it. if you personally think that handchecking is the biggest reason for perimeter scoring to increase, so be it. just dont make up lies to back up your argument.

im done with this. post whatever replies you want, its going nowhere anyways, and ive said what i wanted to say. i really dont care to argue anymore with someone who is so incredibly insecure that he resorts to lying and making things up just to back up a personal opinion.

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/p23pZpK/wp250966.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GT3DYz4/michael-jordan-space-the-final-frontier-vintage-poster-24-x-34-872.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/3WJr9H8/adttfxv6w0swm5ldh60q.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Xy6YfCv/nike-air-jordan-playground-poster-24-1-80fe728898aac537cf884650389169ba.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/YTpf79R/1a5f9293e7932abc5fb9e28cbb099cdd.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/F3Mdk8B/406470-1024-1.jpg

[Spurtacular]

I feel like I never hear anyone propose the most likely reason Michael Jordan retired in 1993 to play baseball.

Someone made a bet with him that he couldn't make the Major Leagues.

Probably cos that's not the most likely reason, Sadbert.

[LkrFan]

uouL2S3Ezv0

[lefty]

Why The Last Dance shouldn’t influence the GOAT debate

“The Last Dance” disqualified itself as viable evidence in the GOAT debate around the 59-minute mark of Episode 1. That’s when credits began to roll, and the first three names of executive producers flashed onto your TV screen. There was Mike Tollin, who originally pitched the project. And there were Curtis Polk and Estee Portnoy – business partner and manager/spokeswoman, respectively, to one Michael Jordan.
What they and countless others have made is in many ways a masterpiece. It’s driving unprecedented ratings and quenching sports thirsts. It’s enjoyable. It’s captivating. It’s nostalgia-inducing for some. It’s educational for others.
It becomes problematic, though, when Jordan’s people frame it as something more. David Falk, Jordan’s longtime agent, did just that this week. “If you are not legally blind and you watch this 10 hours and don't realize this is the greatest player of all time,” he told ESPN’s Scott Van Pelt, “you should probably start watching roller derby."
Falk isn’t the first person to hold up the documentary as proof of MJ’s GOAT status. He certainly won’t be the last. Millions of people share his opinion. And 10 hours of vintage footage and emotional interviews are confirmation bias’ dream.
But Falk isn’t helping. He’s actually feeding an unpopular-but-not-unsubstantiated view of “The Last Dance” as Jordan propaganda. It’s a view supported by the doc’s tendency to rely overwhelmingly on Jordan’s version of events – and, of course, by those credits, too.
It’s why the past four Sundays aren’t proof of anything. Jordan might be the GOAT. But not because he, his business associates and a team of talented storytellers tell us he is.
Falk made the GOAT pitch for his friend as an indirect response to a question about why , and why now . What pushed Jordan, a famously private figure in retirement, to agree to unseal the behind-the-scenes footage? And why, after two decades of refusing similar approaches, did he decide to participate in a groundbreaking documentary now?

Perhaps it’s relevant that Jordan made that decision literally while LeBron James and the Cavaliers were parading their Larry O’Brien trophy through the streets of Cleveland in 2016. :wow

And perhaps that’s why Falk, after rambling for a bit, brought up the LeBron comparisons, and transitioned into his line about blind people and roller derbies.
Van Pelt began the conversation with a wide-open question. In that answer, too, Falk quickly arrived at a statement about “what really made Michael Jordan the incredible GOAT of all time.”

So why did Jordan agree to “The Last Dance”? We’ll probably never get a full explanation. But we’d be naive to think legacy wasn’t on his mind. We’d also be naive to ignore that his company, Jump 23, is an (unlisted) partner on the project. And that his business associates, and specifically the woman in charge of managing his public image, are executive producers. Perhaps they care a bit about how that legacy is crafted.
And perhaps that’s why the entire story revolves around Jordan’s perspective, occasionally to a fault. Perhaps it’s why, when the narrative arrives at his flaws, it leaves with Jordan turning the media’s coverage of them into motivation. Perhaps it’s why, when attention turns to Scottie Pippen’s flaws, Pippen – one of the best players of his generation, a beloved teammate, and an absolutely essential part of the three-peats – rarely gets the same narrative-driving privilege.
“The Last Dance” is wonderful entertainment. It just isn’t journalism. Which is absolutely fine … as long as we don’t view it as that.
Falk said on ESPN that Jordan “wanted to see the story told.” What he really got was a chance to tell it. Which, well … if LeBron’s production company spent multiple years working on a 10-hour documentary that showed why he is the GOAT, would you believe that one too?
This is not a column about the GOAT debate. It’s a column about not letting an inherently biased retelling of one contestant’s career settle the debate.
“The Last Dance” allows millions of us to see, hear, feel Michael Jordan like we never have before. Its brilliance is the look in his eyes when he senses disrespect; the tears that well and the emotions that surface; the heartfelt monologue that closed Episode 7.
It’s a unique look at, as Falk said, “his mind.” And “his approach, his concentration, his devotion – unparalleled.”
It’s also a subjective look at one slice of basketball history. It’s a useful perspective. But given whose perspective it is, don’t let it be a definitive one.


https://sports.yahoo.com/why-the-last-dance-shouldnt-influence-the-goat-debate-021715190.html

[benefactor]

^translation...all the titles, money and fame in the world can't mask your insecurities. It's like the stories about him bullying teammates. Bullies bully people because shaming someone allows them to stay at a place where they can't be opposed...because being opposed would expose the false confidence they cloak themselves with.

[lefty]

^translation...all the titles, money and fame in the world can't mask your insecurities. It's like the stories about him bullying teammates. Bullies bully people because shaming someone allows them to stay at a place where they can't be opposed...because being opposed would expose the false confidence they cloak themselves with.
This

[ambchang]

^translation...all the titles, money and fame in the world can't mask your insecurities. It's like the stories about him bullying teammates. Bullies bully people because shaming someone allows them to stay at a place where they can't be opposed...because being opposed would expose the false confidence they cloak themselves with.

Bill Cartwright proved this for us.

[ambchang]

this is going to be my last reply to this.


well if you actually read my post, you would have seen i addressed the shaq aspect and added him to the number

And missed the other 2.


we have no idea what robinson would have scored, but we do know he was on the downhill of his career at that point. barkley was too, even more so. thats some major picking and choosing. not a shocker though, you do have a history of it.

And the year after he came back, significantly hobbled, and still finished 10th in the league in scoring.


ah i get it. so injury is an acceptable excuse for a decrease in post scorers. but an actual decrease in post scorers (in that many of the previously dominant post scorers had retired or gotten old and less effective, and werent replaced with new ones because recent drafts had more wing talent than low post talent), isn't an acceptable excuse?

mind. blown.

I am sure being injured and not being able to play should be considered an excuse for not having players in the top ten.

That said, it's clear that post players are cyclical, as there are just a smaller number of 7 footers in the world, and them being good in basketball is just wildly cyclical. That said, it's been a 20 year streak with no low post impact players, where players as skilled and dominant as Anthony Davis, KAT, Jokic, Embiid aren't having overwhelmingly positive impact to their team's success, at least not the degree of the post day plays, and that is largely due to the changing game play styles of today vs. 20 years ago, which was driven by changes in perimeter defensive rules that allows easier and more effective perimeter scoring.


neat.

Apparently you don't, nor do you have the ability to admit to error.



lmao no it wasnt a "wrong year" mistake. it was you making crap up. if you simply looked at the stat, which any retard with a computer is capable of doing, then you would have seen. but no, you as usual, like to make stuff up to fit your agenda, hoping no one calls you out on it.

Hey, don't believe me, I mis-read the year and read the numbers in 99-00.


hm idk maybe because kobe is a better scorer than they were, so he picked up more of the scoring slack than the others? at this point youre literally just asking questions to hang on to god knows what, must be some weird pride or something you have

And he picked up on those open jumpers Rice was getting?


well when you claimed it was 6-7, 4 is easily less.

Stackhouse - 6.2 ppg
Kobe - 6 ppg
Iverson - 2.7 ppg
Ray Allen - -0.1ppg
Pierce - 5.8 ppg
marbury - 1.7 ppg
T-Mac - 11.4 (yes, it was mostly because he had a largely different role)
Carter - 1.9 ppg

So I count 7. I am not even counting Rip Hamilton, Peja, and Steve Francis because they clearly were growing as perimeter scorers.



especially when compared to the other year i pointed out, in 96-97, where i already mentioned three perimeter players with significant increases in scoring. lets find a few more, shall we?

doug christie had an increase of 7ppg. anthony peeler had an increase of 4.8ppg. eddie jones had an increase of 4.4ppg. david wesley had an increase of 4.5ppg. amongst others. so now there are actually more cases in 96-97 of perimeter scoring average increases, than 00-01.

If you want to go that route, I can count Rip, Peja, Francis, even Miller who was clearly on the downward of his career had a minor uptick.


granted, we could go back and forth doing this until we check the averages of every player (and im not about to do that, but if you are butthurt enough to do so, be my guest). point is, 00-01 was not the ONLY year with a large number of perimeter players having noticeable scoring increases, as you seem to suggest.


No it wasn't, it was the year with the greatest number though.



technically, by rule they were never allowed to do that to begin with. refs would just occasionally allow players to get away with it. oh wait, kind of like they do today.

And yet that year was the year the league heavily clamped down.


no, the lies were the bits of "proof" you gave, much of which turned out to be incorrect. such as there never having been a year with such a drop off of low post scorers in the top 10 ppg scorers, or that ray allen had a significant scoring increase in 00-01, or that shaq increased his scoring output after glen rice left, or that there was never a year that had a massive number of perimeter players with significant scoring increases.

Man, hard to find somebody as sensitive as you. I admit I misread the Shaq year.


i feel the primary reason was that more talented perimeter players started being drafted, while there was a noticeable decrease in the amount of talented low post scorers.

And I agree with that as well. The reason is that the rules were changed such that low post players are less effective as before, and as such the emphasis is put on perimeter skill development.


lol not even addressing the point. but i guess in your world, jaren jackson is a high quality NBA player, whos career ended because he couldnt hand check anymore, when hundreds of other basketball players continued to be effective without the handcheck.

Do you have a habit of extrapolating and argue another point to claim victory, you know, like strawman? It seems to be your only move.


idk why you keep going back to this point that ive repeatedly agreed about, that handchecking did have an overall effect on the league, and that it helped promote an increase in perimeter scoring.

i dont agree with the notion that many have that handchecking would suddenly make elite modern scorers ineffective, or that MJ would average 45 in todays league because theres no handchecking.

Did I say that?


i dont agree that handchecking is the single biggest reason for perimeter play being a more focal point of offenses.

And that is where we disagree. I believe it made perimeter scoring much more effective, 3s easier to launch, and allowed an entirely different type of effective offense (3s based) that wasn't viable 20 years ago. As such, heavier and heavier emphasis moves towards perimeter skills development.



you tell me. did they shut down MJ? or did they simply make him work harder, perhaps resulting in the occasional bad game?
27.3ppg on 41.5% shooting for an entire series? I would say that is shut down. Jordan's numbers were also significantly impacted vs. the Pistons.


lmao talk about a strawman

anyone who has played a lick of organized basketball knows that is a basic fundamental taught to players on how to deal with handchecking.

So at first you are saying players can put others at a disadvantage when they were handchecked, and now it is about how to deal with?

Any organized ball would teach you how to deal with double teams too, I am sure double teams have no impact no the offensive player.


fair enough. i obviously cant change your mind, nor can you change mine. i just wanted you to see that you posted a lot of lies and made up stuff.

You have issues, really, major issues.


neat.

Because that is true?


point is, quit posting lies and making stuff up. if you just personally dont care for a different style of basketball, so be it. if you personally think that handchecking is the biggest reason for perimeter scoring to increase, so be it. just dont make up lies to back up your argument.

When did I say I don't care for a different style? And what lies? I have backed up my points.


im done with this. post whatever replies you want, its going nowhere anyways, and ive said what i wanted to say. i really dont care to argue anymore with someone who is so incredibly insecure that he resorts to lying and making things up just to back up a personal opinion.

I would say insecure people would just lob personal insults all day and make mountains out of molehills.

Did you use to write for Seinfeld?

[Dirks_Finale]

Was Ron Harper a D-bag? First I have heard of this.

Jason Caffey: Ron Harper (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/305/ron-harper)? I hate that guy, he was so insecure

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29166548/before-last-dance-scottie-pippen-delivered-six-words-trash-talk-changed-nba-history

[FrostKing]

^translation...all the titles, money and fame in the world can't mask your insecurities. It's like the stories about him bullying teammates. Bullies bully people because shaming someone allows them to stay at a place where they can't be opposed...because being opposed would expose the false confidence they cloak themselves with.
Hahah

This is male sports. At the highest level. Beyond $$$, the biggest driving factor for these guys is to not be emasculated


Bulls bench - Longley, Kerr and Buechler

Stiff white guys, right? Plumbers and grocery baggers. Instead of running them off the team, Jordan invested his time into molding them into winners. It took hard parenting. And these players responded in key moments late in series when MJ/Pippen were out of gas.

Lebron usually had superior benches. But without a father figure to teach him how to lead, he was left spending his time creating cool handshakes. And that is those he didn't run off or abandon for greener pastures

[FrostKing]

.

[FrostKing]

Was Ron Harper a D-bag? First I have heard of this.

Jason Caffey: Ron Harper (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/305/ron-harper)? I hate that guy, he was so insecure

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29166548/before-last-dance-scottie-pippen-delivered-six-words-trash-talk-changed-nba-history
Harper was definitely the most urban on the team

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron usually had superior benches. But without a father figure to teach him how to lead, he was left spending his time creating cool handshakes.

I don't think it's a coincidence he picks DWade, a final's MVP, to team up with and attempt to win his first. Notice he didn't even give Chicago and D-rose a serious look in FA as they were not proven winners.

I'm trying to picture Jordan bailing on the Bulls after losing to the Pistons again in 89-90....subsequently teaming up with the Pistons or Celtics to learn how to win and be mentored by a winner. I just can't wrap my brain around that because he was such an alpha-male.

[Spurtacular]

Ron Harper

Funny how Dad Killer needed all-stars Harper, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc and all-time 3 shooter Kerr while past prime GOAT PG Stockton was leading his team past all of them if not for Karl Malone's choking.

[Dirks_Finale]

Funny how Dad Killer needed all-stars Harper, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc and all-time 3 shooter Kerr while past prime GOAT PG Stockton was leading his team past all of them if not for Karl Malone's choking.

Harper was a shell of his former self by the tine he joined Chicago. And Rodman was becoming a washout in 98. He wasn't even starting in the 98 playoffs.

But yeah, Chicago was better than Utah both those Final years. Krause deserves props for assembling an excellent roster.

[Spurtacular]

Harper was a shell of his former self by the tine he joined Chicago.

Standard Jordan fanboy myth narrative.

Ron Harper averaged 19 ppg the season before ring chasing in Chicago.

[Spurtacular]

And Rodman was becoming a washout in 98.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qUoOBBlA0&t=136s

[Spurtacular]

But yeah, Chicago was better than Utah both those Final years.

No.

[Dirks_Finale]

Standard Jordan fanboy myth narrative.

Ron Harper averaged 19 ppg the season before ring chasing in Chicago.

He came to Chicago when Jordan was whiffing at curveballs. So plenty of scoring opportunities that year. How did he do in 94-95? I'll wait.

[Dirks_Finale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qUoOBBlA0&t=136s

96 Rodman>>>>>98 Rodman which is what I referenced

[ambchang]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29150878/he-was-beloved-everybody-how-scottie-pippen-lifted-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls

Once again Pippen was more a 1b than a 2.

[FrostKing]

Pacers would have defeated the Jazz in 1998. But would have been a hell of a series

[Dirks_Finale]

That Pacer team never gets talked about it. They were highly underrated.


Pacers would have defeated the Jazz in 1998. But would have been a hell of a series

[FrostKing]

I don't think it's a coincidence he picks DWade, a final's MVP, to team up with and attempt to win his first. Notice he didn't even give Chicago and D-rose a serious look in FA as they were not proven winners.

I'm trying to picture Jordan bailing on the Bulls after losing to the Pistons again in 89-90....subsequently teaming up with the Pistons or Celtics to learn how to win and be mentored by a winner. I just can't wrap my brain around that because he was such an alpha-male.
Great point. Wade was non-negotiable to Lebron.

I do not think Michael's father would have allowed him to quit on Chicago. Why would MJ anyway, he was already arguably the best player in the League. You don't tuck tail and run

This is an important part: I think MJ enjoyed beating his rivals (and embarrassing them) more than he did winning and all the social hoopla that comes with that. Lebron is the opposite he loves the media shows and parties that come from winning.

[Spurtacular]

96 Rodman>>>>>98 Rodman which is what I referenced

I know what you referenced. Just :lol'ing that you think he fell off the cliff.

[Spurtacular]

He came to Chicago when Jordan was whiffing at curveballs. So plenty of scoring opportunities that year. How did he do in 94-95? I'll wait.

He came to Chicago to sacrifice stats and be a role player, not an all star.

[Dirks_Finale]

He was 37 years old in 98 and coming off the bench.


I know what you referenced. Just :lol'ing that you think he fell off the cliff.

[Spurtacular]

He was 37 years old in 98 and coming off the bench.

And still pulling down 15 boards a game like a beast.

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah, if Lebron somehow doesn't win in Miami, which seemed impossible considering it was the most talented team in in the league, would have been interesting to see if he ever even makes the Cleveland return. My guess is he just keeps forming super teams all over the place until he finally gets one.


Great point. Wade was non-negotiable to Lebron.

I do not think Michael's father would have allowed him to quit on Chicago. Why would MJ anyway, he was already arguably the best player in the League. You don't tuck tail and run

This is an important part: I think MJ enjoyed beating his rivals (and embarrassing them) more than he did winning and all the social hoopla that comes with that. Lebron is the opposite he loves the media shows and parties that come from winning.

[Dirks_Finale]

And still pulling down 15 boards a game like a beast.

Defense fell off in the 2nd half of the season. Not saying he sucked or anything but the dip was noticeable. Spent a lot of time in foul trouble. fouled out of 2 ECF games in 1998 and in foul trouble vs Utah the entire series.

Also,

Rebound average in the 1996 finals vs Seattle - 14.4

Rebound average in the 1998 Finals vs Utah - 8.3

[140]

Yeah, if Lebron somehow doesn't win in Miami, which seemed impossible considering it was the most talented team in in the league, would have been interesting to see if he ever even makes the Cleveland return. My guess is he just keeps forming super teams all over the place until he finally gets one.

He's still basically doing that so thats a safe assumption tbh. I mean even when he went back to Cleveland it was never really about Cleveland but just about forming a new super team.

[Isitjustme?]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29150878/he-was-beloved-everybody-how-scottie-pippen-lifted-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls

Once again Pippen was more a 1b than a 2.

Still salty about Jordan's dominance after all these years :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

rodman pistons>rodman bulls>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rodman spurs = rodman mavs/lakers etc whatever team he played at the end of his career...

[DMX7]

Had no idea Leonardo DiCaprio was at that game 6.

[Dirks_Finale]

Well...back to watching clips of old games on YouTube now.

Excellent docuseries. 5 stars.

Always suspected food poisoning and not the flu. I think the same happened to the Lakers in Sacramento.

Lebron can take solace now, in knowing that catching Jordan was never even a option for anyone, realistically. He's probably irate after watching this trying to get Pelinka to get him 5 more all stars so he can win a few more and try and wiggle his way back into the conversation :lol :lol

[DMX7]

Well...back to watching clips of old games on YouTube now.

Excellent docuseries. 5 stars.

Always suspected food poisoning and not the flu. I think the same happened to the Lakers in Sacramento.

Lebron can take solace now, in knowing that catching Jordan was never even a option for anyone, realistically. He's probably irate after watching this trying to get Pelinka to get him 5 more all stars so he can win a few more and try and wiggle his way back into the conversation :lol :lol

They should have opened a criminal investigation into the food poisoning if that’s really what it was.

[DMX7]

Rusty was one of Tim Duncan’s teammates at Wake Forest and a rookie on the 1998 Chicago Bulls.

1261649311458263041

[jeebus]

Decent doc. I'm gonna miss looking into those baby yellow eyes.

[lefty]

:lol at the Utah State A&M Community College Astrology Club

[lefty]

They should have opened a criminal investigation into the food poisoning if that’s really what it was.

Not necessary

Jordan beat the same pizza delivery boys in both Finals

[FrostKing]

"Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen eliminated the most 60-Win teams in the postseason in NBA History"

Seven teams :lobt:

[FrostKing]

Episode 9. I understand this was "Kerr's episode" but not one single clip of Kukoc scoring his 21 points in Game 7? Toni was 1 point short of Reggie for the games 2nd highest scorer

I also think they should have shown Michael's failed drive in Game 6 with Bob Costa's famous "The Bulls and Pacers are going to the limit!" to even more set the moment. It was shown for a few seconds in the background of a Sportscenter clip

But there was a-lot packed into this episode.

[lefty]

:lol tje Jazz scored 54 pts in an NBA Finals game
:lol Jordan’s opposition

[FrostKing]

:lol tje Jazz scored 54 pts in an NBA Finals game
:lol Jordan’s opposition
Pippen threw out his back taking charges in that game.

Michael Jordan eliminated 20 different Hall of Fame players in the postseason
:bobo

[FrostKing]

Just finished watching

Damn what an ending. What an epic sports documentary. Got a lil choked up there.

[Kyle_Kuzma]

Just finished watching

Damn what an ending. What an epic sports documentary. Got a lil choked up there.
meh

5/10, just another jordan brand legacy promotion. not even a top 7 30 for 30.

if mj didnt had final say in editing, this would’ve been 10x better.

they promoted this as having 500 hours of never seen, behind the scenes footage in 98 yet barely 30 minutes from that season was used:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

NBA greats denied a ring thanks to Jordan:

Barkley
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller

Drexler and Hakeem would be on the list but snuck in the back door when Jordan played baseball :lol

Everybody ate in the Lerbron era. Dirk, Duncan, Manu, TP, Durbeta ( :lol ), Steph, Klay, KG, Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi

[Dirks_Finale]

I'm sure you will be able to purchase extra footage for a hefty price, at some point.


meh

5/10, just another jordan brand legacy promotion. not even a top 7 30 for 30.

if mj didnt had final say in editing, this would’ve been 10x better.

they promoted this as having 500 hours of never seen, behind the scenes footage in 98 yet barely 30 minutes from that season was used:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

Michael Jordan (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1035/michael-jordan) or LeBron James (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james)? For NBA fans, the debate over the better NBA player will never end -- but at the moment, MJ clearly has more fans in his corner.
A new poll commissioned by ESPN found 73% of NBA fans believe Jordan is the superior player overall, and the Chicago Bulls (https://www.espn.com/nba/team/_/name/chi/chicago-bulls) legend swept all 17 questions comparing him to James by metrics both on and off the court.
To account for the generation gap -- Jordan last played in the season before James entered the league in 2003 -- the 600 respondents were split evenly into two age groups: 18-34 and 35 and older. Jordan naturally led by almost 4-to-1 (79%) in the older half, but even in the younger group, Jordan was preferred by nearly 2-to-1 (66%).

[lefty]

NBA greats denied a ring thanks to Jordan:

Barkley
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller

Drexler and Hakeem would be on the list but snuck in the back door when Jordan played baseball :lol

Everybody ate in the Lerbron era. Dirk, Duncan, Manu, TP, Durbeta ( :lol ), Steph, Klay, KG, Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi

Lol no the Rockets would have skullfucked Chicago :lol
All the guys you mentioned didn’t a Pippen and the refs

[i'm_still_beta]

NBA greats denied a ring thanks to Jordan:

Barkley
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller

Drexler and Hakeem would be on the list but snuck in the back door when Jordan played baseball :lol

Everybody ate in the Lerbron era. Dirk, Duncan, Manu, TP, Durbeta ( :lol ), Steph, Klay, KG, Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi

Barkley - fat undersized 6'5 no defense pf and defense is extremly important for pf. Complete defensive liability in today's league
Ewing - great 2-way big. Unfortunately his 2nd option was John aka grocery bagger Starks and not Scottie Pippen. Bulls still got their hands full with Knicks
Stockton - great role player. Good defensively, good passer. Couldn't create his own shot as well as break down defense with driving. Racked up a lot of cheap assists. Great lol
Malone - biggest mental midget in 90s nba. Jazz were average Western Conference playoff team before all their rivals became old. Props for their longevity though
Miller - 3 assists 3 rebounds no defense sg. Wow
Hakeem - during 1st Bulls 3-peat they were 1-5 against Rockets. Rockets were bad matchup for them and Hakeem was big reason why. Jordan was the greatest competitor the game has ever seen and took every game seriously unlike today's tic toc rappers (at least media and his fans say this all the time). Because of that, we can assume that Rockets would destroy Bulls in the Finals if Jordan didn't quit.

Jordan is no question goat candidate and it can be argued the goat. But he was lucky that the most dangerous matchups for him Robinson and Hakeem played in different conference and he had perfectly constructed team around him. He was also lucky that truly elite teams and dynasties like Pistons (Bulls beat them when they were 48-34 team) Celtics and Showtime Lakers were gone before his rise

[dbreiden83080]

Just finished watching

Damn what an ending. What an epic sports documentary. Got a lil choked up there.

Me too LOL.. Now what? What am I going to Watch on Sunday Night? God I Miss Sports..

[Joey Gallo]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=y-FbhBM9uvU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y-FbhBM9uvU)
What a series that would have been

[Joey Gallo]

Tpk_O6TVPsI

[Dirks_Finale]

Barkley - fat undersized 6'5 no defense pf and defense is extremly important for pf. Complete defensive liability in today's league
Ewing - great 2-way big. Unfortunately his 2nd option was John aka grocery bagger Starks and not Scottie Pippen. Bulls still got their hands full with Knicks
Stockton - great role player. Good defensively, good passer. Couldn't create his own shot as well as break down defense with driving. Racked up a lot of cheap assists. Great lol
Malone - biggest mental midget in 90s nba. Jazz were average Western Conference playoff team before all their rivals became old. Props for their longevity though
Miller - 3 assists 3 rebounds no defense sg. Wow
Hakeem - during 1st Bulls 3-peat they were 1-5 against Rockets. Rockets were bad matchup for them and Hakeem was big reason why. Jordan was the greatest competitor the game has ever seen and took every game seriously unlike today's tic toc rappers (at least media and his fans say this all the time). Because of that, we can assume that Rockets would destroy Bulls in the Finals if Jordan didn't quit.

Jordan is no question goat candidate and it can be argued the goat. But he was lucky that the most dangerous matchups for him Robinson and Hakeem played in different conference and he had perfectly constructed team around him. He was also lucky that truly elite teams and dynasties like Pistons (Bulls beat them when they were 48-34 team) Celtics and Showtime Lakers were gone before his rise

I do not disagree with any of y'all on Hakeem's greatness. Guy was an absolute beast. Best footwork downlow I have ever seen next to Mchale. But if all that stuff you say about Barkely/Malone/Stockton, etc is true then why do you suppose Hakeem didn't get to the Finals in any of those other years? How come we never got that dream matchup, pun intended?

Honestly, I think the Bulls beat Houston in a series. That team was Hakeem and a bunch of shooters. Very similar to the Spurs of 99-02 and we saw how Phil played them in LA. Guarded Tim straight up through 3 quarters so the Spurs shooters had no rhythm...then bring some hard doubles in the 4th from time to time to fluster them. He rolls out a lineup of C-Rodman PF-Kukoc SF- Pippen SG- Jordan PG- Harper. Hakeem gets 40 and his shooters don't get shit lol. Bulls may have to take them 7 as you are right, those bigger teams seemed to give Chicago problems.

[Dirks_Finale]

I think their is another putrid h-o-r-s-e tournament on the horizon :lol


Me too LOL.. Now what? What am I going to Watch on Sunday Night? God I Miss Sports..

[FrostKing]

Phil didn't start dating Jeanie Buss til 1999 but I wonder if he already had his eye on the Lakers job

Jordan probably should have given up his "only play for Phil" demand and instead worked with Krause to bring someone in other than Tim Floyd.

The players still wanted to dance but management and coaches seemed to all want to move on to the next challenge. Unlike players and their short window of opportunity, management/coaches has a more big picture and long term viewpoint.

[i'm_still_beta]

I do not disagree with any of y'all on Hakeem's greatness. Guy was an absolute beast. Best footwork downlow I have ever seen next to Mchale. But if all that stuff you say about Barkely/Malone/Stockton, etc is true then why do you suppose Hakeem didn't get to the Finals in any of those other years? How come we never got that dream matchup, pun intended?

Honestly, I think the Bulls beat Houston in a series. That team was Hakeem and a bunch of shooters. Very similar to the Spurs of 99-02 and we saw how Phil played them in LA. Guarded Tim straight up through 3 quarters so the Spurs shooters had no rhythm...then bring some hard doubles in the 4th from time to time to fluster them. He rolls out a lineup of C-Rodman PF-Kukoc SF- Pippen SG- Jordan PG- Harper. Hakeem gets 40 and his shooters don't get shit lol. Bulls may have to take them 7 as you are right, those bigger teams seemed to give Chicago problems.

Sometimes, I think it comes down to luck. Hakeem was better player in 92-93 season than in 94-95, but in 93 in game 7 iirc Scottie Brooks missed potential series-winning buzzer beater in the 4th. Then in OT refs made couple of mistakes in Seattle's favor and another teammate missed another series winner. Then look at ending of game 7 in 95 against Suns. KJ missed crucial free-throw, Mario Elie drained 3-pointer, Danny Ainge made free-throw he tried to intentionally miss and etc.

And Hakeem had weird career. He had epic span from 1993-1995 when he peaked. He wasn't as great prior and after that. After 1995 his athleticism declined. Before 1993 his game wasn't polished enough

[Isitjustme?]

"You Bitch, Fuck You"

:rollin :rollin :lmao :lol

[FrostKing]

Me too LOL.. Now what? What am I going to Watch on Sunday Night? God I Miss Sports..
There is still so much I want to see

They left out

- Alonzo's elbow on Pippen in 1997 ECF
- Pippen to Malone "Mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays"
- Rodman marrying himself
- Kukoc break out in Game7 of 1998 ECF
- Pippen actually bricked game winner in OT of Game1 of 1998 Finals
- Bison Dele brought in

Off the top of my head.

[FrostKing]

Response to MJ's food poisoning

https://i.ibb.co/12nryq3/Screenshot-2020-05-18-14-17-04-1-1.png

[lefty]

Phil didn't start dating Jeanie Buss til 1999 but I wonder if he already had his eye on the Lakers job

Jordan probably should have given up his "only play for Phil" demand and instead worked with Krause to bring someone in other than Tim Floyd.

The players still wanted to dance but management and coaches seemed to all want to move on to the next challenge. Unlike players and their short window of opportunity, management/coaches has a more big picture and long term viewpoint.

Agreed

[lefty]

:lol “don’t say that to Scott Burrell you’re gonna scare the shit out of him”

[Neo.]

NBA greats denied a ring thanks to Jordan:

Barkley
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller

Drexler and Hakeem would be on the list but snuck in the back door when Jordan played baseball :lol

Everybody ate in the Lerbron era. Dirk, Duncan, Manu, TP, Durbeta ( :lol ), Steph, Klay, KG, Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi
:lmao this spun trash

lets go ahead and add bird, magic, dumars, isaiah, mchale, parish, kareem, worthy, dennis johnson, rodman, to MJs list of people who won in his era

perhaps we could also add shaq, kobe, timmy, robinson to MJs list as well, but he retired prematurely to get worked by them

[Spurtacular]

:lmao this spun trash

lets go ahead and add bird, magic, dumars, isaiah, mchale, parish, kareem, worthy, dennis johnson, rodman, to MJs list of people who won in his era

perhaps we could also add shaq, kobe, timmy, robinson to MJs list as well, but he retired prematurely to get worked by them

:lol Jordan fanboys

BTW, calling it the Lebron Era when Duncan has more rings. :lol

[dbreiden83080]

I think their is another putrid h-o-r-s-e tournament on the horizon :lol

LOL Yeah that was Shit.. Grainy Video and all.. Jesus..

[Michael Jordan.]

:lmao this spun trash

lets go ahead and add bird, magic, dumars, isaiah, mchale, parish, kareem, worthy, dennis johnson, rodman, to MJs list of people who won in his era

perhaps we could also add shaq, kobe, timmy, robinson to MJs list as well, but he retired prematurely to get worked by them
Yet everybody and they mama got a turn to ring in LeBron’s Era. LeBron locked down the East. I locked down the NBA.

[dbreiden83080]

If Anyone has ESPN Plus, and looking for something to watch, they put up some classic Bulls games..

1998 ECF Game 7
97 Finals Game 6
98 Finals Game 6
98 Finals Game 2
Also some from earlier years like 93 Knicks when MJ scored 54..

[Michael Jordan.]

I mean goddamn. Andre Igoudala won a finals MVP in LeBron’s era. :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

I mean goddamn. Andre Igoudala won a finals MVP in LeBron’s era. :lol

:lol

And in 2013 Danny Green was on the verge winning Finals MVP before Allen bailed out Lebron.

https://nbaobserver.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/danny-green-finals-mvp/

[Dirks_Finale]

Yet everybody and they mama got a turn to ring in LeBron’s Era. LeBron locked down the East. I locked down the NBA.

And there's Delonte West and Lebrons mother ummmm...ok I'll leave that one alone. :lol

But everyone ate in Lebron's era. Can anyone here imagine Jordan being outscored by Jet Terry in a Finals series?

[Dirks_Finale]

If Anyone has ESPN Plus, and looking for something to watch, they put up some classic Bulls games..

1998 ECF Game 7
97 Finals Game 6
98 Finals Game 6
98 Finals Game 2
Also some from earlier years like 93 Knicks when MJ scored 54..
Is ESPN + normally worth it when we aren't enduring a global pandemic ? Like 5 bucks a month right? Low cost has me thinking it's probably garbage under normal circumstances.

[Michael Jordan.]

Or this

https://scontent.fiws1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/98731902_4255188164506498_8005791951385264128_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQmwp0cyITcBRZSyIMLZghcGoI7bvaDlA0gyS_9A6ON TDbghOBTCzjQWw7BHjFKZNKEEIPJZxu5dyj-UYJzNVX_f&_nc_ht=scontent.fiws1-1.fna&_nc_tp=14&oh=2c3269a7f648e07efd17b18243eaf101&oe=5EEA6507

[Dirks_Finale]

:lmao this spun trash

lets go ahead and add bird, magic, dumars, isaiah, mchale, parish, kareem, worthy, dennis johnson, rodman, to MJs list of people who won in his era

perhaps we could also add shaq, kobe, timmy, robinson to MJs list as well, but he retired prematurely to get worked by them

Oh but he's the king right? I've been hearing that bullshit about him since he came into the league. So go ahead "king", take over early. Expectations are high for self proclaimed kings.

[Dirks_Finale]

Or this

https://scontent.fiws1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/98731902_4255188164506498_8005791951385264128_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQmwp0cyITcBRZSyIMLZghcGoI7bvaDlA0gyS_9A6ON TDbghOBTCzjQWw7BHjFKZNKEEIPJZxu5dyj-UYJzNVX_f&_nc_ht=scontent.fiws1-1.fna&_nc_tp=14&oh=2c3269a7f648e07efd17b18243eaf101&oe=5EEA6507

He got called for an offensive foul there :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

https://scontent.fiws1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/99006181_4255243321167649_8299192647822606336_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQmX1keo-_xFkXHgwAq5xR4lZn6nJNoCeOI1Is5w7C5xQi_YRnS4oxD3CtR BRJLmkKCQ3_hisqpAXqYifADX9Dye&_nc_ht=scontent.fiws1-1.fna&_nc_tp=14&oh=1814d1f13ed09fdaf30a19afff810d6d&oe=5EEA9F22



:lmao :lmao :lmao

[dbreiden83080]

Is ESPN + normally worth it when we aren't enduring a global pandemic ? Like 5 bucks a month right? Low cost has me thinking it's probably garbage under normal circumstances.

Overall I would say no.. I got it because I watch a lot of UFC, but even then you have to pay for the ESPN PPV content. Some cool extra content is on there in other sports every once in a while..

[Dirks_Finale]

https://scontent.fiws1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/99006181_4255243321167649_8299192647822606336_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQmX1keo-_xFkXHgwAq5xR4lZn6nJNoCeOI1Is5w7C5xQi_YRnS4oxD3CtR BRJLmkKCQ3_hisqpAXqYifADX9Dye&_nc_ht=scontent.fiws1-1.fna&_nc_tp=14&oh=1814d1f13ed09fdaf30a19afff810d6d&oe=5EEA9F22



:lmao :lmao :lmao

:lol

[FrostKing]

Overall I would say no.. I got it because I watch a lot of UFC, but even then you have to pay for the ESPN PPV content. Some cool extra content is on there in other sports every once in a while..
I think all those games are available on YouTube. Maybe not all in HD though

What else is on there?

[dbreiden83080]

I think all those games are available on YouTube. Maybe not all in HD though

What else is on there?

Well this is what they say LOL.. For me I just watch the UFC content really..

"Thousands of events from MLB, NHL, MLS, Serie A, FA Cup, Top Rank Boxing, and more. Plus, get UFC Fight Nights and PPV events, Grand Slam tennis, and access to your favorite college sports like football, basketball, and lacrosse"

[lefty]

Jordan was hung over

Grover sucks at lying :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

Didn't food poisoning happen to Kobe in their 02 series vs the Kings? It's a feasible explanation. Kind of hard to buy a mob of delivery guys delivering one pizza and peering into the room though. If true, I'd have the pizza tossed. Why let him eat it if it's that suspicious?

[DMX7]

I think all those games are available on YouTube. Maybe not all in HD though

What else is on there?

The games were never broadcast in HD so HD footage from the NBC broadcasts doesn't exists. The true HD images you saw from the documentary were actually shot on high quality film and then digitally transferred to HD. If they wanted to, they could actually make it 4K resolution. But they only had a few cameras and some of the games/practices shot in film (most on floor angles, not normal broadcast angles), as opposed to crappy broadcast video from the era. A lot of the game footage was actually shot on IMAX film for the Jordan to the Max documentary that played in IMAX theaters.

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/Y2cQwNP/Screenshot-2020-05-19-04-05-32-1.png

Lebron ready to be Michael's sidekick

[lefty]

Didn't food poisoning happen to Kobe in their 02 series vs the Kings? It's a feasible explanation. Kind of hard to buy a mob of delivery guys delivering one pizza and peering into the room though. If true, I'd have the pizza tossed. Why let him eat it if it's that suspicious?

Maybe because Jordan is so competitive he wanted to prove he could still eat that pizza

[Dirks_Finale]

Maybe because Jordan is so competitive he wanted to prove he could still eat that pizza

:clap

[ambchang]

NBA greats denied a ring thanks to Jordan:

Barkley
Ewing
Stockton
Malone
Miller

Drexler and Hakeem would be on the list but snuck in the back door when Jordan played baseball :lol

Everybody ate in the Lerbron era. Dirk, Duncan, Manu, TP, Durbeta ( :lol ), Steph, Klay, KG, Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Kawhi

I still think Hakeem would’ve beat the bulls if they met. Jordan’s bulls gets their matchups against PG driven offences (pretty much every team in that era. They struggle relatively against teams with good offensive centres. Ewing and the Knicks pushed the bulls to a few good series but Ewing isn’t a good enough passer. Smits and the pacers pushed the bulls to the limit but smits isn’t as good as those top tier players. Look at the sonics, even with Payton locking down Jordan they still lost in six and much of that was rodman shutting down kemp. As good as rodman was he will not be able to do that against Hakeem and the rockets will feast inside forcing the bulls to collapse the defense leading to wide open shots for the other guys (rockets game plan). At the other end mad max and Ellie will give Jordan all they’ve got but cassell and smith will abuse the Armstrong’s and Kerr’s

[ambchang]

I do not disagree with any of y'all on Hakeem's greatness. Guy was an absolute beast. Best footwork downlow I have ever seen next to Mchale. But if all that stuff you say about Barkely/Malone/Stockton, etc is true then why do you suppose Hakeem didn't get to the Finals in any of those other years? How come we never got that dream matchup, pun intended?

Honestly, I think the Bulls beat Houston in a series. That team was Hakeem and a bunch of shooters. Very similar to the Spurs of 99-02 and we saw how Phil played them in LA. Guarded Tim straight up through 3 quarters so the Spurs shooters had no rhythm...then bring some hard doubles in the 4th from time to time to fluster them. He rolls out a lineup of C-Rodman PF-Kukoc SF- Pippen SG- Jordan PG- Harper. Hakeem gets 40 and his shooters don't get shit lol. Bulls may have to take them 7 as you are right, those bigger teams seemed to give Chicago problems.

What shooters did the spurs have? A fossilized Steve smith?

[Dirks_Finale]

What shooters did the spurs have? A fossilized Steve smith?

Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Terry Porter, Steve Kerr, Danny Ferry.

Before TP and Manu, it was a slow methodical game. Dump into into Tim or David(usually on high post) and wait for the double so you can shoot a jumper.

[lefty]

By the way I feel The Last Dance didn't have a lot of new footage

[Dirks_Finale]

By the way I feel The Last Dance didn't have a lot of new footage

True, but the HD footage from a previous era really broght it to life. No VHS crap that you can barely see. :lol

And I learned some things I did not know. Steve Kerr's dad, Gus the security guy, details on Rodman's getaway, burning of your thoughts on the team and Jordan getting all sentimental and poetic. Scott Burrell being a human Pinata. And Pippen choosing to remain douchey surprised me.

[lefty]

True, but the HD footage from a previous era really broght it to life. No VHS crap that you can barely see. :lol

And I learned some things I did not know. Steve Kerr's dad, Gus the security guy, details on Rodman's getaway, burning of your thoughts on the team and Jordan getting all sentimental and poetic. Scott Burrell being a human Pinata. And Pippen choosing to remain douchey surprised me.

:lol true the quality is much better

I knew about Kerr's dad and Rodman's escapades

But I didn't know about Jordan actually going to knock on Rodman's door in that Las Vegas hotel , holy shit :lol

By the way forthose who say they weren't hugging or shaking hands after games back in the days, we saw plenty of that with Bird, Miller and Jordan in the arena hallways
Also Jordan was playing golf with Ainge or Barkley in the middlle of their playoff series

[lefty]

Here in Canada we had weekly episodes available on Netflix every Sunday a few hours after they have aired on ESPN (since ESPN is not officially available here)

In the US I think it will be on Netflix only in July

[Darth_Pelican]

https://www.totalprosports.com/2020/05/18/fans-remind-karl-malone-of-his-sketchy-past-during-final-episode-of-the-last-dance-tweets/

[Isitjustme?]

https://www.totalprosports.com/2020/05/18/fans-remind-karl-malone-of-his-sketchy-past-during-final-episode-of-the-last-dance-tweets/

13 years old? eww lmao

[Dirks_Finale]

:lol true the quality is much better

I knew about Kerr's dad and Rodman's escapades

But I didn't know about Jordan actually going to knock on Rodman's door in that Las Vegas hotel , holy shit :lol

By the way forthose who say they weren't hugging or shaking hands after games back in the days, we saw plenty of that with Bird, Miller and Jordan in the arena hallways
Also Jordan was playing golf with Ainge or Barkley in the middlle of their playoff series
Well i heard that Rodman had an apt near the United center. And he had already returned from Vegas when Jordan got him out of his slumber.

And yeah i saw pleasantries exchanged. Like a smile...how's your family...eff you bitch :lol. No mention of teaming up together to try and finally win something :lol. Also load management? Pippen played through a busted back. In this era they'd take 2 years off for that :lol

[lefty]

Well i heard that Rodman had an apt near the United center. And he had already returned from Vegas when Jordan got him out of his slumber.

And yeah i saw pleasantries exchanged. Like a smile...how's your family...eff you bitch :lol. No mention of teaming up together to try and finally win something :lol. Also load management? Pippen played through a busted back. In this era they'd take 2 years off for that :lol

Jordan took 1.5 years off and was burned out after both threepeats
He benefited from load management:lol

As for Rodman I thought Jordan flew to the Vegas hotel where Rodman was staying

[FrostKing]

And I learned some things I did not know. Steve Kerr's dad,
Then you probably never heard of this

https://i.ibb.co/ScxYD6B/Screenshot-2020-05-19-11-01-16-1.png

> "Shouts of “PLO, PLO . . . " and “Your father’s history,” and “Why don’t you join the Marines and go back to Beirut?” by a small group of students caused Kerr to sit down for a few minutes to regain his composure.

The taunting took place about a half-hour before game time, with only about 1,000 of the eventual crowd of 12,784 at Arizona State’s University Activity Center."



Kerr got emotional on the bench crying. Then hit 6-three pointers.

[R. DeMurre]

It's unfortunate that Ron Harper gets no love at all in this documentary. In his last year with the Clippers, he averaged 20.1 pts, 6.1 rebounds, 4.6 assists, and 1.9 steals per game.
He gave up most of that to be a 6'6" guy who focused on defense starting at PG beside Jordan & Pippen. I was explaining this to my girlfriend during that last episode as Stockton took his last second attempt at the end of Game 6-- and Bob Costas yells "Harper got a piece of it, Harper got a piece of it!" Every PG that faced the Bulls that year started against either a 6'6" SG (Harper or Jordan), or Pippen. That's one of the reasons their D was so great.

[ambchang]

Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Terry Porter, Steve Kerr, Danny Ferry.

Before TP and Manu, it was a slow methodical game. Dump into into Tim or David(usually on high post) and wait for the double so you can shoot a jumper.

Mario Elie - 36 years old in 2000, left for one more year with Phoenix. Doesn't matter though, Duncan was hurt and the Spurs were booted off in the first round that year.
Jaren Jackson - He was done after the handchecking came in, became totally useless on the defensive end.
Terry Porter - 38 years old in 2002, he retired after that season.
Steve Smith - 32 years old in 2002, his shooting fell off a cliff the year after, and his post season play that year was embarrassing.
Danny Ferry - 35 years old in 2002, and he never had much of a prime and retired after 03. One of the greatest busts of all time.

Point is, other than Steve Smith, none of those players were expected to do much as shooters to open up the lane for the Spurs. They are not Mad Max, prime Elie, Cassell, Drexler, and the Jet. They are like the Scott Brooks and Pete Chilcutts.

[ambchang]

13 years old? eww lmao

Technically I think she got preggo at 12, she gave birth at 13, no?

[ambchang]

:lol true the quality is much better

I knew about Kerr's dad and Rodman's escapades

But I didn't know about Jordan actually going to knock on Rodman's door in that Las Vegas hotel , holy shit :lol

By the way forthose who say they weren't hugging or shaking hands after games back in the days, we saw plenty of that with Bird, Miller and Jordan in the arena hallways
Also Jordan was playing golf with Ainge or Barkley in the middlle of their playoff series

Jordan's known for that. he pretended to be friends with Barkley so that the Chuckster would let his guard down, but called him a fat duck behind his back. He was friendly with Oakley when they were teammates in Chicago so that he can have a bodyguard, and stayed friendly with Oakley so that Oakley wouldn't demolish him in the paint like Laimbeer or Mahorn would. Russell did the same to Wilt and invited him over for dinners and stuff, but secretly hate the man.

[Dirks_Finale]

I'm not saying any of them were as good ad Drexler or Mad max. They were scrubs who shot open threes. Some of them, however, helped the Spurs win a title.


Mario Elie - 36 years old in 2000, left for one more year with Phoenix. Doesn't matter though, Duncan was hurt and the Spurs were booted off in the first round that year.
Jaren Jackson - He was done after the handchecking came in, became totally useless on the defensive end.
Terry Porter - 38 years old in 2002, he retired after that season.
Steve Smith - 32 years old in 2002, his shooting fell off a cliff the year after, and his post season play that year was embarrassing.
Danny Ferry - 35 years old in 2002, and he never had much of a prime and retired after 03. One of the greatest busts of all time.

Point is, other than Steve Smith, none of those players were expected to do much as shooters to open up the lane for the Spurs. They are not Mad Max, prime Elie, Cassell, Drexler, and the Jet. They are like the Scott Brooks and Pete Chilcutts.

[Neo.]

Oh but he's the king right? I've been hearing that bullshit about him since he came into the league. So go ahead "king", take over early. Expectations are high for self proclaimed kings.

lol why are you so butthurt by lebron? he didnt even proclaim himself the "king", it was a nickname local newspapers gave him in highschool that everyone continued to call him

he came into the league with the biggest expectations of any player ever, and has done nothing but live up to them and is pretty widely considered a top 5 player ever, despite still being in the midst of dominant years of his career. he may very well still compete for MVPs and championships for another 2-4 years, and even after that still probably be a top 10 player

idk what more you can ask of him. but apparently in your eyes, you want him to beat teams that far and away outmatch his. which btw he actually did in 2016 finals. MJ never did anything like that. now just to be fair, if we want to throw the dallas series out there, then okay those two series pretty much wash each other out. every other finals that lebrons teams were supposed to win, they won. the finals they should have lost, they lost. its pretty much the same with mike. he had no business losing any of the finals series, and they didnt lose any of them.

however it should be noted that two of lebrons finals losses, his teams had some pretty significant injuries. wade was dealing with injuries all year in 13-14, and was visibly playing hurt all through the playoffs. shane battier who was a frequent starter dealt with injuries though the year and missed some playoff games too. then in 14-15 as we know Kyrie and Love both were out for the finals. not sure why hes expected to beat a dominant 67 win team without his 2nd and 3rd options. if were gonna give MJ a pass for getting gangraped by the pistons in game 7 when scottie had his "migraine", or for getting swept by the magic and getting completely destroyed by penny on defense because he was "not himself", then we gotta give some passes to lebron too. the double standards are really pathetic.

[Arcadian]

How do they even have HD footage from the '90s? I thought that technology didn't exist at the time.

[Dirks_Finale]

It existed it was just expensive as hell.


How do they even have HD footage from the '90s? I thought that technology didn't exist at the time.

[Dirks_Finale]

Neo, did the local newspaper guys hold him down and tattoo "Chosen1" on his back as well? :lol

I have said that in 2007 and even 2015 I do not hold those losses against him. Both those teams were extremly overmatched and in 2015 they put up a great effort, despite all that and that is to Lebron's credit.

But even so, still put's him with a losing Final's record of 3-4. Wade being banged up in 2014 is like Pippen throwing his back out in the 98 Finals and Rodman being bored and disinterested in anything outside of Carmen Electra. The Bulls still find a way behind their leader. This is what people have expected of Lebron since he is the "Chosen1" as his tattoo and nickname suggest.

I know you guys consider me a hater or whatever, but I really don't agree. I appreciate his talent and effort for what it is, but I am just baffled as to how anyone can honestly place him above Jordan. He's top 5, IMO. MJ, Kareem and Maybe Wilt and all the others are debatable.


lol why are you so butthurt by lebron? he didnt even proclaim himself the "king", it was a nickname local newspapers gave him in highschool that everyone continued to call him

he came into the league with the biggest expectations of any player ever, and has done nothing but live up to them and is pretty widely considered a top 5 player ever, despite still being in the midst of dominant years of his career. he may very well still compete for MVPs and championships for another 2-4 years, and even after that still probably be a top 10 player

idk what more you can ask of him. but apparently in your eyes, you want him to beat teams that far and away outmatch his. which btw he actually did in 2016 finals. MJ never did anything like that. now just to be fair, if we want to throw the dallas series out there, then okay those two series pretty much wash each other out. every other finals that lebrons teams were supposed to win, they won. the finals they should have lost, they lost. its pretty much the same with mike. he had no business losing any of the finals series, and they didnt lose any of them.

however it should be noted that two of lebrons finals losses, his teams had some pretty significant injuries. wade was dealing with injuries all year in 13-14, and was visibly playing hurt all through the playoffs. shane battier who was a frequent starter dealt with injuries though the year and missed some playoff games too. then in 14-15 as we know Kyrie and Love both were out for the finals. not sure why hes expected to beat a dominant 67 win team without his 2nd and 3rd options. if were gonna give MJ a pass for getting gangraped by the pistons in game 7 when scottie had his "migraine", or for getting swept by the magic and getting completely destroyed by penny on defense because he was "not himself", then we gotta give some passes to lebron too. the double standards are really pathetic.

[FrostKing]

It's unfortunate that Ron Harper gets no love at all in this documentary. In his last year with the Clippers, he averaged 20.1 pts, 6.1 rebounds, 4.6 assists, and 1.9 steals per game.
He gave up most of that to be a 6'6" guy who focused on defense starting at PG beside Jordan & Pippen. I was explaining this to my girlfriend during that last episode as Stockton took his last second attempt at the end of Game 6-- and Bob Costas yells "Harper got a piece of it, Harper got a piece of it!" Every PG that faced the Bulls that year started against either a 6'6" SG (Harper or Jordan), or Pippen. That's one of the reasons their D was so great.
Yes. Also 7-2 Longley and 6-11 Kukoc. Except for Kerr they were all tall.

That was no mistake. All those role players were tall/long, high IQ and could hit the open jumper. It was a system.

Harper went onto start for the 2000 Lakers

[Dirks_Finale]

What are your thoughts on the triangle offense? Overrated or did it actually aid the Bulls and Lakers in their title quests?




Yes. Also 7-2 Longley and 6-11 Kukoc. Except for Kerr they were all tall.

That was no mistake. All those role players were tall/long, high IQ and could hit the open jumper. It was a system.

Harper went onto start for the 2000 Lakers

[Michael Jordan.]

Neo, did the local newspaper guys hold him down and tattoo "Chosen1" on his back as well? :lol

I have said that in 2007 and even 2015 I do not hold those losses against him. Both those teams were extremly overmatched and in 2015 they put up a great effort, despite all that and that is to Lebron's credit.

But even so, still put's him with a losing Final's record of 3-4. Wade being banged up in 2014 is like Pippen throwing his back out in the 98 Finals and Rodman being bored and disinterested in anything outside of Carmen Electra. The Bulls still find a way behind their leader. This is what people have expected of Lebron since he is the "Chosen1" as his tattoo and nickname suggest.

I know you guys consider me a hater or whatever, but I really don't agree. I appreciate his talent and effort for what it is, but I am just baffled as to how anyone can honestly place him above Jordan. He's top 5, IMO. MJ, Kareem and Maybe Wilt and all the others are debatable.
2011 Finals is where he lost any chance at being in the conversation

[FrostKing]

lol why are you so butthurt by lebron? he didnt even proclaim himself the "king", it was a nickname local newspapers gave him in highschool that everyone continued to call him

he came into the league with the biggest expectations of any player ever, and has done nothing but live up to them and is pretty widely considered a top 5 player ever, despite still being in the midst of dominant years of his career. he may very well still compete for MVPs and championships for another 2-4 years, and even after that still probably be a top 10 player

idk what more you can ask of him. but apparently in your eyes, you want him to beat teams that far and away outmatch his. which btw he actually did in 2016 finals. MJ never did anything like that. now just to be fair, if we want to throw the dallas series out there, then okay those two series pretty much wash each other out. every other finals that lebrons teams were supposed to win, they won. the finals they should have lost, they lost. its pretty much the same with mike. he had no business losing any of the finals series, and they didnt lose any of them.

however it should be noted that two of lebrons finals losses, his teams had some pretty significant injuries. wade was dealing with injuries all year in 13-14, and was visibly playing hurt all through the playoffs. shane battier who was a frequent starter dealt with injuries though the year and missed some playoff games too. then in 14-15 as we know Kyrie and Love both were out for the finals. not sure why hes expected to beat a dominant 67 win team without his 2nd and 3rd options. if were gonna give MJ a pass for getting gangraped by the pistons in game 7 when scottie had his "migraine", or for getting swept by the magic and getting completely destroyed by penny on defense because he was "not himself", then we gotta give some passes to lebron too. the double standards are really pathetic.
In my experience watching NBA for over 25 years - newer players will arrive. They will be even more enamored and entitled. People will realize that last guy actually wasn't so evil and will cherish him. Happened to me with Shaq and then Kobe

But then Lebron will no longer get that current player hype. There will be a new guy proclaimed the next Jordan and Lebron will slide down the totem pole to his rightful place. Until then we cannot fully reflect on his career.

[FrostKing]

What are your thoughts on the triangle offense? Overrated or did it actually aid the Bulls and Lakers in their title quests?
I am no triangle expert. We had a little exchange on here about it recently and almost all said Triangles influence was overstated.

I think it was not as needed in LAL because they had 2 elite scorers. Especially one in the post.

In Chicago the goal was to not allow defenses to zero in on MJ. I do believe it played a vital part. Likely the reason why Rodman's offensive deficiencies were masked. Rodman benefited on the boards because the offenses constant movement resulted in defenders out of position when the ball went up. Bulls also had a ton of assists in mid air - Jordan/Pippen went up for a shot but instead hit a cutter for an easy basket.

I read Kukoc AMA on reddit recently, he said Phil forced new arrivals to take a 10 question quiz on the triangle. Until this quiz was passed they would not play. Toni admitted he struggled but Pippen helped him grasp.

[lefty]

Those 2011 Mavs swept the 2 time defending champions Lakers and then beat a talented OKC team but people seem to forget that :lol

Not to mention nobody was stopping Dirk that year and the Mavs Zone D was fantastic

[Dirks_Finale]

Those 2011 Mavs swept the 2 time defending champions Lakers and then beat a talented OKC team but people seem to forget that :lol

Not to mention nobody was stopping Dirk that year and the Mavs Zone D was fantastic

Carlisle is an underrated genius. I watched him throw that weird zone at teams all year long and confuse the hell out of everybody because it would suddenly morph into man, then back to zone. You really didn't know what hit you in the 4th quarters of games. Very unpredictable.

[lefty]

Carlisle is an underrated genius. I watched him throw that weird zone at teams all year long and confuse the hell out of everybody because it would suddenly morph into man, then back to zone. You really didn't know what hit you in the 4th quarters of games. Very unpredictable.

I’ve always rated him highly

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah I agree with you on the LAL. Didn't think the triangle was a great offense for a team with a dominant center. It amost canceled out Shaq at times.

And there were guys who played in it for a year or two and never really got it. Gary Payton said something to the effect that he never really got the offense, didn't like it in 2004 and just played basketball the way he knew how.


I am no triangle expert. We had a little exchange on here about it recently and almost all said Triangles influence was overstated.

I think it was not as needed in LAL because they had 2 elite scorers. Especially one in the post.

In Chicago the goal was to not allow defenses to zero in on MJ. I do believe it played a vital part. Likely the reason why Rodman's offensive deficiencies were masked. Rodman benefited on the boards because the offenses constant movement resulted in defenders out of position when the ball went up. Bulls also had a ton of assists in mid air - Jordan/Pippen went up for a shot but instead hit a cutter for an easy basket.

I read Kukoc AMA on reddit recently, he said Phil forced new arrivals to take a 10 question quiz on the triangle. Until this quiz was passed they would not play. Toni admitted he struggled but Pippen helped him grasp.

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/yXtfzpq/0519201630.jpg


https://youtu.be/8G2WzH4AKpE

[Neo.]

Neo, did the local newspaper guys hold him down and tattoo "Chosen1" on his back as well? :lol

also not self proclaimed, that originated with SI

him taking a name and running with it to build his brand, is not remotely the same as a self-proclamation


But even so, still put's him with a losing Final's record of 3-4. Wade being banged up in 2014 is like Pippen throwing his back out in the 98 Finals and Rodman being bored and disinterested in anything outside of Carmen Electra. The Bulls still find a way behind their leader. This is what people have expected of Lebron since he is the "Chosen1" as his tattoo and nickname suggest.

1) pippen having a hurt back for a single game is not in the same league as wade playing hurt for an entire playoff run
2) utah wasnt even close to being on the bulls level. the spurs were clearly the better basketball team over miami that entire season


I know you guys consider me a hater or whatever, but I really don't agree.

not a hater, just oddly butthurt and obsessed with him considering you find some way to include him in every conversation possible, just for the sake of insulting him. its pretty weird tbh


I appreciate his talent and effort for what it is, but I am just baffled as to how anyone can honestly place him above Jordan.

i think its an extremely small minority of people who place him above jordan


He's top 5, IMO. MJ, Kareem and Maybe Wilt and all the others are debatable.

so id say its reasonable to believe that he has lived up to expectations, which were high. and hes still not done yet. he may well add another title or two, mvp, and overtake kareem for the all time points record.

[Neo.]

2011 Finals is where he lost any chance at being in the conversation

2016 put him right back in the discussion

far better than anything you did

[Will Hunting]

Horace Grant went HAM on Dad Killer over this docuseries :lol

[Neo.]

But then Lebron will no longer get that current player hype. There will be a new guy proclaimed the next Jordan and Lebron will slide down the totem pole to his rightful place. Until then we cannot fully reflect on his career.

funny thing is, since lebron, no one has been proclaimed or even talked about as "the next Jordan", because Bron ended that conversation in 2 ways

1) he lived up to his hype, something no one compared to mike (other than Kobe, who didnt have anywhere NEAR the hype lebron had) was able to do
2) he made it abundantly clear that its ridiculous to compare anyone to mike, because you dont have to play the same way mike did, to be great and dominant. plus, the one guy who actually was jordanesque (Kobe) was pretty clearly surpassed in greatness by lebron years ago.

regardless, yes people will likely have a different feel about him when he retires, but i really dont think it will hurt him. often times it helps a player, because people start to really look at his body of work, instead of his recent work, or nitpicking at small moments. lebrons body of work is truly magnificent.

[lefty]

Horace Grant went HAM on Dad Killer over this docuseries :lol

Yeah I saw that

Not afraid of the Nike snipers tbh :lol

[Will Hunting]

Yeah I saw that

Not afraid of the Nike snipers tbh :lol
It’s pretty indisputable how much of a piece of shit human being DK is tbh

[FrostKing]

funny thing is, since lebron, no one has been proclaimed or even talked about as "the next Jordan", because Bron ended that conversation in 2 ways

1) he lived up to his hype, something no one compared to mike (other than Kobe, who didnt have anywhere NEAR the hype lebron had) was able to do
2) he made it abundantly clear that its ridiculous to compare anyone to mike, because you dont have to play the same way mike did, to be great and dominant. plus, the one guy who actually was jordanesque (Kobe) was pretty clearly surpassed in greatness by lebron years ago.

regardless, yes people will likely have a different feel about him when he retires, but i really dont think it will hurt him. often times it helps a player, because people start to really look at his body of work, instead of his recent work, or nitpicking at small moments. lebrons body of work is truly magnificent.
Leonard might change all this. He is already proclaimed the closest current copy to Jordan. If he delivers the Clippers their first title while eliminating Lebron along the way. Dann that would be crippling for Lebron's legacy.

But as it currently stands, your viewpoint is shared by the majority.

[lefty]

It’s pretty indisputable how much of a piece of shit human being DK is tbh

Fuck that insecure petty pos

:cry he elevated his game against legend Hornacek, what a hero

[FrostKing]

And now we're back at Jordan was a meanie :cry

[Neo.]

Leonard might change all this. He is already proclaimed the closest current copy to Jordan. If he delivers the Clippers their first title while eliminating Lebron along the way. Dann that would be crippling for Lebron's legacy.

But as it currently stands, your viewpoint is shared by the majority.

i dont think it would cripple lebrons legacy, as opposed to simply increasing leonards dramatically

lebrons is pretty much cemented as a top 5 in most peoples minds. his career isn't remotely done, yet hes already built a resume of accomplishments that only mike and kareem have outdone at this point. virtually no amount of losses can change or take away from that.

[140]

Horace Grant went HAM on Dad Killer over this docuseries :lol

He sounds pretty salty tbh

[FrostKing]

i dont think it would cripple lebrons legacy, as opposed to simply increasing leonards dramatically

lebrons is pretty much cemented as a top 5 in most peoples minds. his career isn't remotely done, yet hes already built a resume of accomplishments that only mike and kareem have outdone at this point. virtually no amount of losses can change or take away from that.
Lebron's legacy sits on two foundations
- Longevity
- Finals appearances

Those are less stable arguments than short term dominance or all time winner. Sports medicine is improving and the East is not improving.

Imagine if Zion had been drafted by the Knicks. Zion already had a superior statistical season than Lebron's rookie season. Now all he would need to do is guide them to the playoffs and he out does Lebron's rookie season in that department. My point being few consider Lebron an all time dominant player or all time winner. His accomplishments are not very safe and will diminish over time. He badly needs that 4th title in LA.

[Michael Jordan.]

Those 2011 Mavs swept the 2 time defending champions Lakers and then beat a talented OKC team but people seem to forget that :lol

Not to mention nobody was stopping Dirk that year and the Mavs Zone D was fantastic
LeBron had Wade and Bosh, yet still ended up playing the worst out of those three. Getting duked up by a 4’11 whitey.

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron's legacy sits on two foundations
- Longevity
- Finals appearances

Those are less stable arguments than short term dominance or all time winner. Sports medicine is improving and the East is not improving.

Imagine if Zion had been drafted by the Knicks. Zion already had a superior statistical season than Lebron's rookie season. Now all he would need to do is guide them to the playoffs and he out does Lebron's rookie season in that department. My point being few consider Lebron an all time dominant player or all time winner. His accomplishments are not very safe and will diminish over time. He badly needs that 4th title in LA.

If he comes up with 2 more rings with LA I think he is cemented top 5...maybe cemented #2 depending on how he gets those rings. And placing him in the GOAT conversation becomes much more realistic. Unfortunately for him, Kawhi is a big road block. Dont see any of that happening unless Davis turns the corner.

[Michael Jordan.]

In an era of no hand checking got shut down by Jason Terry and Shawn Marion.

[Michael Jordan.]

And yeah Wade still found a way to shoot 54% from the field against those Mavs while LeBron was shooting 60% from the free throw line and was scared to touch the ball in the 4th quarter

[Neo.]

In an era of no hand checking got shut down by Jason Terry and Shawn Marion.

jason terry didn't even guard him

[Michael Jordan.]

Lowest usage rate out of the big 3, yet led with the most turnovers.

[Michael Jordan.]

jason terry didn't even guard him
Oh that’s right. Is Deshawn Stevenson even still in the NBA?

[Neo.]

And yeah Wade still found a way to shoot 54% from the field against those Mavs while LeBron was shooting 60% from the free throw line and was scared to touch the ball in the 4th quarter

it's also well documented that Carlisle's gameplan was to focus the majority of defensive attention on LeBron with constant help defense, and let Wade have whatever he wanted

[lefty]

It’s funny cuz handchecking was called back then especially on Jordan

[lefty]

Oh that’s right. Is Deshawn Stevenson even still in the NBA?

:lol Jordan hated zone defensw, he wouldn’t have struggled too against the 2011 Mavs

[lefty]

And yeah Wade still found a way to shoot 54% from the field against those Mavs while LeBron was shooting 60% from the free throw line and was scared to touch the ball in the 4th quarter

Because Jordan never disappeared in 4th quarters during the playoffs

Oh wait he did and against shittier defenses:lol

[Michael Jordan.]

RyPJhn-pnNo

getting duked up by an alien

[FrostKing]

If he comes up with 2 more rings with LA I think he is cemented top 5...maybe cemented #2 depending on how he gets those rings. And placing him in the GOAT conversation becomes much more realistic. Unfortunately for him, Kawhi is a big road block. Dont see any of that happening unless Davis turns the corner.
Oh yah, if he has 5 rings to go along with most longevity records. He is in the GOAT discussion.

A 4th ring which is 50/50 chance, would firmly put him above Shaq & Kobe for me. Titles with 3 separate franchises is impressive

As of now. 3 rings? Doesn't move the needle for me. Still in the Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe group. With Leonard fast approaching

[Michael Jordan.]

zNG36cGl8J8

Getting locked down by a 38 year old half white man :lol

[Will Hunting]

And now we're back at Jordan was a meanie :cry
A meanie who got his dad killed :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

Gotdayum an 8 point finals game :rollin

[lefty]

A meanie who got his dad killed :lol

James Jordan : « everything Michael knew about winning, he got that from me »

MJ in The Last Dance interview : « at that point it became personal to me »

[lefty]

Gotdayum an 8 point finals game :rollin

:lol outscored by Pastor Danny Ainge in an elimination game

:lol also had 2 points in the 4th quarter of an elimination game

:lol also scored 1 point in the 4th quarter of an elimination game


:lol and that was against shittier defenses

[Michael Jordan.]

dU09Gph3B_s


Was this the same series Kawhi shot 61% from the floor and 57% from three on that goon?

[lefty]

dU09Gph3B_s


Was this the same series Kawhi shot 61% from the floor and 57% from three on that goon?

Kawhi is much better than any player Jordan was matched up against
He would have murdered MJ tbh

[Michael Jordan.]

8 point finals game :lmao
Too much of a pussy to drive past Kidd :lmao

[lefty]

8 point finals game :lmao
Too much of a pussy to drive past Kidd :lmao
:lol comparing Ainge to Kidd

[lefty]

Let’s face it today’s Warriors would have obliterated MJ

[Michael Jordan.]

Let’s face it today’s Warriors would have obliterated MJ
Like how they obliterated LeBron in 2015 when he shot 39% against them?

[Michael Jordan.]

Damn, Bron averaged 3 points a game in the 4th quarters that series against Dallas?

https://media.tenor.com/images/be9e78564b07c9aa6e0fd09d76f0e6ce/tenor.gif

[lefty]

Like how they obliterated LeBron in 2015 when he shot 39% against them?

Nah it would have been much worse for Michael

[Michael Jordan.]

tNEtXSprqkY

:lmao got his ass kicked on offense and defense that series by Iggy

[Michael Jordan.]

HGdMvQ-RPpY

[lefty]

tNEtXSprqkY

:lmao got his ass kicked on offense and defense that series by Iggy

Iggy is better than any defender Jordan has ever faced :lol
90s defense :lol
Plumbers and math teachers :lol

[benefactor]

Now log into your main djohn and tell us about how Hakeem's Rockets could have taken down Jordan's bulls during the years Jordan didn't play

[Dirks_Finale]

Iggy is better than any defender Jordan has ever faced :lol
90s defense :lol
Plumbers and math teachers :lol

Rodman was much better than Iggy. You are having some difficulties in this discussion :lol

[lefty]

Rodman was much better than Iggy. You are having some difficulties in this discussion :lol
Rodman was guarding Jordan full time and every night?

Looks like you're the one having troule

Most of the time MJ was directly matched up against undersized unathletic guards with shitty defensive fundamentals :lol

And grocery baggers :lmao

[dbreiden83080]

Oh yah, if he has 5 rings to go along with most longevity records. He is in the GOAT discussion.

A 4th ring which is 50/50 chance, would firmly put him above Shaq & Kobe for me. Titles with 3 separate franchises is impressive

As of now. 3 rings? Doesn't move the needle for me. Still in the Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe group. With Leonard fast approaching

I like Lebron more than most. At least around here. But I think he has had enough chances to get in this GOAT Conversation. That's why he is so desperate to get this season going again, to get that 4th ring, and get closer in the GOAT Talk. But 9 finals appearances. He's had enough chances to get in that conversation. Giannis is someone I have my eye on as maybe having that level of potential. Of course he has to kick down the wall, and win a ring first..

[Dirks_Finale]

Plumbers and math teachers :lol

Undrafted players (plumbers, math teachers and a drug addict) in this era.

Fred Van Vleet. 17.6 ppg and 6.6 APG
JJ Barea -- diced up Lebron and MIA
Birdman
Jeremy Lin -- living proof this era is overrated and inflated with meaningless stats
Reggie - watch your nuts - Evans :lol
Wes Matthews - This era's 3-D John Starks
Udonis Haslem -- long time starter and double double guy early on

And the list goes on and on and on....

[dbreiden83080]

Didn't food poisoning happen to Kobe in their 02 series vs the Kings? It's a feasible explanation. Kind of hard to buy a mob of delivery guys delivering one pizza and peering into the room though. If true, I'd have the pizza tossed. Why let him eat it if it's that suspicious?

I recall Kobe got Room Service and it was a bad hamburger.. Why is there is no Room Service at this Hotel in Utah? And WTF did Grover feed Michael for dinner, that at 10:30 he is so hungry he needs to eat a whole Pizza? And Utah Pizza yuck.. Chicago Pizza is awesome, just like NY Pizza.. Jordan was really fucking hungry...

[Dirks_Finale]

Yes, Giannis and if Kawhi can load management his way into enough rings he can get in there too.


I like Lebron more than most. At least around here. But I think he has had enough chances to get in this GOAT Conversation. That's why he is so desperate to get this season going again, to get that 4th ring, and get closer in the GOAT Talk. But 9 finals appearances. He's had enough chances to get in that conversation. Giannis is someone I have my eye on as maybe having that level of potential. Of course he has to kick down the wall, and win a ring first..

[Dirks_Finale]

I recall Kobe got Room Service and it was a bad hamburger.. Why is there is no Room Service at this Hotel in Utah? And WTF did Grover feed Michael for dinner, that at 10:30 he is so hungry he needs to eat a whole Pizza? And Utah Pizza yuck.. Chicago Pizza is awesome, just like NY Pizza.. Jordan was really fucking hungry...

:lol seriously.

That pizza story is just all around wack.

[dbreiden83080]

:lol seriously.

That pizza story is just all around wack.

I did watch the game last night, and yeah he is sick for sure.. His body language, and facial expressions said it all.. But what a virtuoso performance. Jordan was ridiculous..

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah it was pretty incredible. Made Jordan even more iconic which I didn't even know was possible at the time.




I did watch the game last night, and yeah he is sick for sure.. His body language, and facial expressions said it all.. But what a virtuoso performance. Jordan was ridiculous..

[Dirks_Finale]

And role players talk trash to him and rattle him. :lol Never happened with Kobe or Jordan.

"They keep sticking him [James] on Jet in the fourth quarters and he's been doing a good job," Nowitzki said. "Jet hasn't really been a crunch-time, clutch player for us the way we need him to."

Added Terry: "Let's see if [James] can defend me like that for seven games."

Shots fired^^^

Lebron's response:

8 points in game 4

Terry, 0 time all star's follow up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMY6cqd8al0










zNG36cGl8J8

Getting locked down by a 38 year old half white man :lol

[lefty]

James Harden > Jordan

[FrostKing]

This thread is Lefty's 2011 Finals

[Dirks_Finale]

This thread is Lefty's 2011 Finals

:lol

[Michael Jordan.]

This thread is Lefty's 2011 Finals
:lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

1262522771604672515

:lmao Gotdayum

[Michael Jordan.]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/97712663_4262160807142567_7587162519836295168_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_oc=AQmldoyscqohjk5udopzELE0NTgKQGLuUql6inzSMzP sjw7XTqSlEtZMZy-XeVyr8jBXrm4uwq21LY7q3U7PwjCd&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&_nc_tp=14&oh=1c3b19dbd5f2c6bffc6f9bf81afa0e61&oe=5EEA814E

[lefty]

The 2011 Mavs would have skullfucked the 90s Bulls tbh :lol
90s NBA :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

1254610396910141441

[Michael Jordan.]

1250275895127859203

[Michael Jordan.]

1247615171662577664

:lol killing lefty’s dreams

[lefty]

Please :lol

Your so called GOAT green lit the documentary right after Lebron beat the Warriors in 2016 :lol

Even he knows Lebron is better :lol

[i'm_still_beta]

1262522771604672515

:lmao Gotdayum

1262216848030019584

[lefty]

:cry David Stern please change te rules
:cry thePistons are mean
:cry do it or I'll retire
:cry pls


Michael Jordan, 1990 :lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

8 points in the finals :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

1262216848030019584

LMFAO :lol

This thread is now immortalized.

[Dirks_Finale]

Please :lol

Your so called GOAT green lit the documentary right after Lebron beat the Warriors in 2016 :lol

Even he knows Lebron is better :lol

He knew a lot of ignorant dimwits exist and needed a history lesson

And it was effective as even the youngsters now know who the real top dog is, according to ESPN'S poll.

[Michael Jordan.]

Had home court and got his shit pushed in by Dwight and co

[140]

Game 6 the movie tonight on ESPN, not sure exactly what it is but ill check it out tbh

[FrostKing]

Game 6 the movie tonight on ESPN, not sure exactly what it is but ill check it out tbh
YES! Unfortunately I have to record

https://i.ibb.co/qdqQSzJ/Screenshot-2020-05-19-17-49-49-1.png

[Neo.]

1250275895127859203

tom brady literally isnt the best ever at anything but hes clearly the goat QB

joe montana isnt the best ever at anything and he previously was the goat QB

by this criteria, then dennis rodman and steph > lebron, kobe, timmy, shaq, amongst others


He knew a lot of ignorant dimwits exist and needed a history lesson

And it was effective as even the youngsters now know who the real top dog is, according to ESPN'S poll.

more like his severe insecurities, which is even more evident now that basically everyone who either played in those eras, or played on his teams are talking about how BS the documentary actually was :lmao

[Dirks_Finale]

Who's everyone, though?

Haven't heard any negativity from Kerr, Paxson, Rodman, Cartwright, Wennington, Phil or even Scott Burrell.

No clarification on Pippen being butthurt -- just "sources say"(probably CNN which is no source :lol). Even so, it's not like what was reported about him was false.

Horace Grant is the guy I hear chirping the loudest, and he was called a snitch, so I get why he is salty.


tom brady literally isnt the best ever at anything but hes clearly the goat QB

joe montana isnt the best ever at anything and he previously was the goat QB

by this criteria, then dennis rodman and steph > lebron, kobe, timmy, shaq, amongst others



more like his severe insecurities, which is even more evident now that basically everyone who either played in those eras, or played on his teams are talking about how BS the documentary actually was :lmao

[Neo.]

Who's everyone, though?

Haven't heard any negativity from Kerr, Paxson, Rodman, Cartwright, Wennington, Phil or even Scott Burrell.

No clarification on Pippen being butthurt -- just "sources say"(probably CNN which is no source :lol). Even so, it's not like what was reported about him was false.

Horace Grant is the guy I hear chirping the loudest, and he was called a snitch, so I get why he is salty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/last-dance-over-now-michael-194218593.html

okay i used hyperbole sure, but still cartwright, harper, hodges, and rodman all werent pleased with some of the portrayals, in addition to pippen (according to a pretty well respected ESPN reporter), and grant.

point is, the documentary portrayed it all as if he singlehandedly carried a bunch of trash teammates and pippen (who outside of a few moments here and there, was generally portrayed as an above average player) and had absolutely no flaws whatsoever, leaving out basically anything that could potentially be damning to his legacy. not to mention that clearly fabricated pizza story :lmao

[Dirks_Finale]

Interesting... did not know some others outside of Horace were voicing an opposing opinion about the docuseries.

I'll say this, I agree with Horace when he says why did they show Pippen refusing to enter the game in 94 when Jordan wasn't even on the team. Just did not seem necessary in hindsight. But Jordan does have a history of unnecessarily trashing people so it is not surprising.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/last-dance-over-now-michael-194218593.html

okay i used hyperbole sure, but still cartwright, harper, hodges, and rodman all werent pleased with some of the portrayals, in addition to pippen (according to a pretty well respected ESPN reporter), and grant.

point is, the documentary portrayed it all as if he singlehandedly carried a bunch of trash teammates and pippen (who outside of a few moments here and there, was generally portrayed as an above average player) and had absolutely no flaws whatsoever, leaving out basically anything that could potentially be damning to his legacy. not to mention that clearly fabricated pizza story :lmao