Official San Antonio Spurs 2021 Free Agency Discussion Thread

[objective]

I can understand the trepidation over the potential of signing Collins to a Max offer sheet but I also see the small chance it could turn out to be a good contract in the long run.

Looking at his numbers the guy has consistently been a pretty efficient scorer since getting drafted and he only got better actually shooting the ball with range each season. He is a good rebounder and solid on defense already and he will be only 24 when the new season starts back. He has two seasons where he averaged (if you round up lol) 20 points per game on very good shooting % numbers. The season he averaged less points and minutes per game but Atlanta had more offensive weapons and he still averaged almost 18 points per game this season.

Collins would be featured more with us which could expose him a bit offensively or, it could help him show or unlock more of his 1on1 skills. Not too mention Pop and the coaching staff would definitely do a good job drawing up plays to get him looks in his sweet spots.

he is a way better all around player than Lauri and he is still young. The team has to spend money on players so they might as well go for a guy who potentially has a chance to be an all star. When Atlanta traded for Joe Johnson many years ago they knew he was a good player but he became an all star once he got there. The same could maybe happen if we got Collins…… or he could just turn out to be a sold role player that’s slightly over paid. Lmao.

he is also a military brat who does a lot for veterans in and around Atlanta so they would love him in San Antonio

Had the same thoughts regarding Joe Johnson but you beat me to it and I was speed reading through.

[Dejounte]

It’s not as if we’re begging for Lauri over Collins. It’s just that it’s the only rumor being presented to us. People asking for Lauri shouldn’t fuel the desire for Collins from other people. In a perfect world, neither of these players should be an option (Collins on a max).

[Dejounte]

Jae Crowder is the gold standard of the PF position now. 6 3PA per game and versatile switch defense.

Exactly this. I’ll put in another ideal type of player: Marcus Morris. Fuck that guy, by the way.

and maybe Batum as well.

[EasyMoney]

Can easily spread that money around players like Rondae Hollis Jefferson, Otto Porter, Stanley Johnson, Kelly Oubre once he humbles himself once understanding that no team will start him in 2022.

[Mnky]

I'm all for paying Collins. There isn't many options coming up that you can use app that cap space on. He fits perfectly with what the spurs want from a 4 and his defense is criminally underrated. He guarded Randle and Simmons in the playoffs. Everyone was talking about how bad they played, well collins was a reason for that. Not the sole reason, but definitely a reason. He didn't have a role with the hawks. He was usually just stand back and bail out other players. It's kind of the kuzma complaint thing right now, that not having a consistent role hurts players game to game. Trae did some impressive things in the playoffs, but they played better without him on more than one occasion.

Is collins a max player? No. Is it going to hurt the spurs to pay him? Not at all. They have plenty of cap with nothing to do with it. Once he's under contract they can pay the other young guns with ease and still draft and hope for a star.

I'd take collins any day over Laurie, but I honestly dont see it realistically being too likely collins to spurs happens.

It's silly to try to argue he doesn't fit or cant play defense though.

The money is the only issue, however money is how you pry players away from other teams. In this instance, it wouldn't come close to putting the spurs in cap trouble.

[slick'81]

Their owner recently, like post playoffs, said it was unlikely. Sounds to me like he’s on the fence. My trade idea was to give him a nudge, give him a reason to let go.


Agreed. Noway atl just lets him walk for nothing ,and have been gushing over him since the playoffs ended.Maybe spurs can get cretaive and give atl something of value to let him go for a max deal

[exstatic]

Can easily spread that money around players like Rondae Hollis Jefferson, Otto Porter, Stanley Johnson, Kelly Oubre once he humbles himself once understanding that no team will start him in 2022.

You'd be the exact guy I'd want in my NBA fantasy lerague, thinking 4 scrubs are better than one really good player.

Do you really think youre getting all of them for like $27M?

[EasyMoney]

I'm all for paying Collins. There isn't many options coming up that you can use app that cap space on. He fits perfectly with what the spurs want from a 4 and his defense is criminally underrated. He guarded Randle and Simmons in the playoffs. Everyone was talking about how bad they played, well collins was a reason for that. Not the sole reason, but definitely a reason. He didn't have a role with the hawks. He was usually just stand back and bail out other players. It's kind of the kuzma complaint thing right now, that not having a consistent role hurts players game to game. Trae did some impressive things in the playoffs, but they played better without him on more than one occasion.

Is collins a max player? No. Is it going to hurt the spurs to pay him? Not at all. They have plenty of cap with nothing to do with it. Once he's under contract they can pay the other young guns with ease and still draft and hope for a star.

I'd take collins any day over Laurie, but I honestly dont see it realistically being too likely collins to spurs happens.

It's silly to try to argue he doesn't fit or cant play defense though.

The money is the only issue, however money is how you pry players away from other teams. In this instance, it wouldn't come close to putting the spurs in cap trouble.


I hope he isn't one of those players that get paid, and then suddenly start to average out.

[slick'81]

Lauri is absolute dog shit on defense and is def a 1 trick pony. At 15 per maybe spurs go ahead and see what happens

[EasyMoney]

You'd be the exact guy I'd want in my NBA fantasy lerague, thinking 4 scrubs are better than one really good player.

Do you really think youre getting all of them for like $27M?


I never said I'd prefer them over a really good player. I'm simply mentioning an alternative, in the chance collins and markannen become unavailable. Should have made myself clearer

[talkspurs]

Don’t want Collins ; prefer markkanen

I still would rather have Mo wagner then either. Cheaper and still fits the pf/C role.

[Kurik]

I still would rather have Mo wagner then either. Cheaper and still fits the pf/C role.

I’m good with trying out Mo Wagner on a cheap contract. He’s still just 24 and is playing pretty well in the Olympic qualifiers.

[Mnky]

I hope he isn't one of those players that get paid, and then suddenly start to average out.

I think he's just as likely to play up to be honest. His complaint early in the year is that the ball was in traes hands too much and they weren't including everyone. They weren't moving it around enough and getting the most from the other players.

The spurs do exactly what when was asking for and Trae does make him better, when he is being utilized. Our young guys drove and kicked to wide open players all year, our wide open guys just didn't want to shoot. I don't think collins has a problem letting it fly and he's someone who can run the high pick and roll and finish like a man, instead of a middle school layup.

[exstatic]

I’m good with trying out Mo Wagner on a cheap contract. He’s still just 24 and is playing pretty well in the Olympic qualifiers.

Mo Wagner is literally less than nothing. He posted a negative WS/48 one year. Based on his performance over his career, he may well not even be in the league next year, unless someone who drafts his brother does some kind of pity signing.

[rankingtear]

What would the Collins max look like actually?

28 - 29 - 30 - 31

[Kurik]

Mo Wagner is literally less than nothing. He posted a negative WS/48 one year. Based on his performance over his career, he may well not even be in the league next year, unless someone who drafts his brother does some kind of pity signing.

The negative WS is based on a 61 minute timeframe with one team. I don’t disagree that he has been bad but at this point I don’t mind taking flyers in the summer/preseason, 10 days, minimum contracts.

[Teamduncan21]

28 - 29 - 30 - 31

PATFO is willing to extend derozan for 2 years anyway. just do a reverse higher salary on first year, lower on 3rd/4th or even some team option type.

so flexibility remains by 2023

[Uriel]

Remember that Collins is only 23. Whether he's worth a max contract today is certainly debatable, but there's a chance that he develops to the point that by the end of his contract, whether he's worth the max or not wouldn't even be a question.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

PATFO is willing to extend derozan for 2 years anyway. just do a reverse higher salary on first year, lower on 3rd/4th or even some team option type.

so flexibility remains by 2023

Can’t frontload a max contract.

[Uriel]

Another thing to note is that Lauri (24) is older than Collins (23).

[Dejounte]

Another thing to note is that Lauri (24) is older than Collins (23).

He is older by four months. I’m not defending Lauri here, but this is an example of ST putting way too much fucking weight on age. Ridiculous.

[LeBowen]

Lauri is too slow to defend mobile wings and not strong enough to play C for extended minutes.

Bulls fans have pretty much given up on him. He'll end up as a solid player, but nothing special.
Not worth more than 12-15 per year, if you ask me.

[R. DeMurre]

John Collins is younger than Chris Duarte-- that's kind of incredible. Not a qualitative assessment at all, just an observation. Collins has gotten paid pretty well for four years already, and is about to get a gigantic pay raise, and Duarte is looking for his first rookie scale paycheck.

[CGD]

28 - 29 - 30 - 31

Thanks.

So there is a world where Spurs send DDR, Murray, Lonnie/pick to PHI for Simmons. And still have $$ to sign Collins to a near max deal. Interesting.

[Prime BEEF]

Thanks.

So there is a world where Spurs send DDR, Murray, Lonnie/pick to PHI for Simmons. And still have $$ to sign Collins to a near max deal. Interesting.
Interesting. Would think that adding in the pick wouldn’t be necessary. Doubt philly would get a better offer than DDR/Murray/Walker.

[buttsR4rebounding]

John Collins is younger than Chris Duarte-- that's kind of incredible. Not a qualitative assessment at all, just an observation. Collins has gotten paid pretty well for four years already, and is about to get a gigantic pay raise, and Duarte is looking for his first rookie scale paycheck.

Duarte has a dumb agent. He did not have to submit for the draft. He is over the draft age. He could have just become a free agent. He could likely get more than he will as a 1st round pick as I am certain multiple teams would bid for his services. I really don't know what his agent is thinking.

[objective]

Duarte has a dumb agent. He did not have to submit for the draft. He is over the draft age. He could have just become a free agent. He could likely get more than he will as a 1st round pick as I am certain multiple teams would bid for his services. I really don't know what his agent is thinking.

I don't know if it would be as easy as that normally

But

I was listening to a draft podcast, maybe Chad Ford's, and it was said that this year seniors had to officially declare for the draft. The reason is that because of COVID-19 the NCAA gave everyone an extra year of eligibility, and the result was that in order to be draft eligible, any senior had to officially declare themselves for the draft and officially give up NCAA status. So for this draft there were about 120 seniors who declared whereas normally they didn't need to

[NASpurs]

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[exstatic]

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Not a shock. I believe it was stated that no one was untradeable, so this isn’t out of the realm. Not sure how much I value the opinion of ahnfiredigital…

I still think Lonnie is much more likely to be traded. Bothe White and DJ will be in their extensions next season, but Lonnie will still be cheap, and other teams may not see his Swiss cheese defense as much of a road block.

[Dejounte]

Believe when I see it. Sounds like the Ben Simmons rumor from Bruce Bowen…. Turned out to be a blatant lie.

[NASpurs]

Not a shock. I believe it was stated that no one was untradeable, so this isn’t out of the realm. Not sure how much I value the opinion of ahnfiredigital…

I still think Lonnie is much more likely to be traded. Bothe White and DJ will be in their extensions next season, but Lonnie will still be cheap, and other teams may not see his Swiss cheese defense as much of a road block.

They’re sourcing the Athletic

[KobesAchilles]

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You don’t know hard times brother. Hard times is when your GM picks up a $24 million dollar option only to waive that very player 4 months later. Hard times is watching your starting center not be able to post up Ja Morant, or any other point guard, 3 feet from the basket, shoot 18% from the foul line and the complain that he is underpaid. Hard times is watching your starting point guard, shooting guard, and small forward pass the ball away like they were passing around a Kardashian every time they had a wide open 3. Hard times is having to watch your hall of fame badass of a coach suck up and kiss ass to possibly the worst “star player” he has ever coached bc otherwise he will have to drive to Jack in the Box at 3:00 in the morning, order the Munchy meal and use it to entice Demar to come back home. And finally, hard times is watching Bryn Forbes playing in the fucking finals while our sorry ass team can’t even make the playoffs. And now we want to trade Derrick White??? THAT’S HARD TIMES BROTHER

[CGD]

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It's clear for some time that one has to go. They are both on great contracts too.

[CGD]

Interesting. Would think that adding in the pick wouldn’t be necessary. Doubt philly would get a better offer than DDR/Murray/Walker.

Building around a core of Collins and Simmons (both 24 i think) would be a good reboot over next 3 years. Hopefully 2 of Vassell, Keldon, or White can develop consistent outside shooting to help space the floor, and keep Peortl in the starting line up. Collins aside, that defensive unit would be sick.

[exstatic]

If they trade one or both of White and DJ, I think they’ll have difficulty getting future players to sign team friendly extensions.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

John Collins does worth the max! The questions is who we give up in a sign and trade deal. I can only give up Walker plus one future 1st rounder. But other teams are likely willing to offer more if we go thru sign & trade. Does John Collins have a say under this situation? Can he just tell Atlanta that "I want to go to Spurs. Please don't match"?

[exstatic]

John Collins does worth the max! The questions is who we give up in a sign and trade deal. I can only give up Walker plus one future 1st rounder. But other teams are likely willing to offer more if we go thru sign & trade. Does John Collins have a say under this situation? Can he just tell Atlanta that "I want to go to Spurs. Please don't match"?

The thing is, almost every other team will have to send out considerable salary to match Collins prospective salary coming in. If Atlanta wanted that much salary on their books, they’d just keep Collins. I don’t want to give up a pick, but I’d send out one or both of Lonnie and Luka, who’d be trapped behind Collins, and play as little, or less than he does now.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The thing is, almost every other team will have to send out considerable salary to match Collins prospective salary coming in. If Atlanta wanted that much salary on their books, they’d just keep Collins. I don’t want to give up a pick, but I’d send out one or both of Lonnie and Luka, who’d be trapped behind Collins, and play as little, or less than he does now.

Thank you for the great info brother! Then let's have John Collin Coming party!

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Actually just a pipe dream for us to get John Collins! Hawks would be stupid not to match our offer. They can save money by letting go other guys, not the 2nd most important player in your team.

[dbestpro]

Simple reason why Murray and White might get traded over Walker. They havve greater trade value. For a team spinning its wheels like the Spurs you need to trade value to get value. We have an excess of guards so the best guards need to be made available.

[Chinook]

Collins would be the best player on the team without much effort. He's obviously worth the max. I get that Spurs fans aren't used to having a bunch of cap space, but you don't bargain hunt with cap space. There's no logic in comparing who's the "better deal" between Collins and Lauri or anyone else. There's no functional difference between paying Collins $30M and paying those guys whatever. The Spurs will still be able to do whatever they are going to want to do anyway. What matters is who's better and if Collins is better, then he needs to be the target. It's even some reluctant thing either. He's a great fit and can give the team some semblance of a foundation to build around. It doesn't matter if he looks like a championship piece or whatever mess folks have been trying to throw out there. You need to have a developmental framework first before you can even get a supporting cast together, and Collins can do that way better than the guards on the team can now. The offense would be better when guys are able to play off a good scorer who doesn't need to take the ball from them. The defense will be better when they aren't trying out three-PG, four-small units. If the time comes when Collins is holding the team back, then like with Toronto with DeRozan they can make a move then. Until then, Collins would be the best use of salary space on the team outside of some rookie contracts.

[Dejounte]

Boy, so many folks are going to be disappointed on here. :lmao

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Collins would be the best player on the team without much effort. He's obviously worth the max. I get that Spurs fans aren't used to having a bunch of cap space, but you don't bargain hunt with cap space. There's no logic in comparing who's the "better deal" between Collins and Lauri or anyone else. There's no functional difference between paying Collins $30M and paying those guys whatever. The Spurs will still be able to do whatever they are going to want to do anyway. What matters is who's better and if Collins is better, then he needs to be the target. It's even some reluctant thing either. He's a great fit and can give the team some semblance of a foundation to build around. It doesn't matter if he looks like a championship piece or whatever mess folks have been trying to throw out there. You need to have a developmental framework first before you can even get a supporting cast together, and Collins can do that way better than the guards on the team can now. The offense would be better when guys are able to play off a good scorer who doesn't need to take the ball from them. The defense will be better when they aren't trying out three-PG, four-small units. If the time comes when Collins is holding the team back, then like with Toronto with DeRozan they can make a move then. Until then, Collins would be the best use of salary space on the team outside of some rookie contracts.

This!

How many guys are there in the league who can do all things John Collin does? 3 point shooting, rebound, run and dunk; cut and dunk; defend both 4 and 5. But that's why Hawks will match our offer. That's why our Front Office may not even make the offer so they can sign other free agents who are available.

[lmbebo]

I guess if the right pieces are there ... no one should untouchable with this team.

But feels like we keep reading articles like this and nothing happens.

[LeBowen]

Boy, so many folks are going to be disappointed on here. :lmao

Patty will sign a new 4 year deal.

We like what we have.:pop:

[Leetonidas]

Boy, so many folks are going to be disappointed on here. :lmao

The life of a post-Duncan spurs fan tbh

[Dejounte]

Patty will sign a new 4 year deal.

We like what we have.:pop:

Woj, 12:01: The San Antonio Spurs have signed DeMar DeRozan to a 5-year $150 million deal.

[exstatic]

Actually just a pipe dream for us to get John Collins! Hawks would be stupid not to match our offer. They can save money by letting go other guys, not the 2nd most important player in your team.

The owner has come out since the playoffs, and said he doesn’t think they can keep the team together. They can get rid of a BUNCH of other players,and then need to go buy some in FA to replace them. Or, they can let one relatively inexpensive player walk when he’s no longer inexpensive. Or, they could take some redundant parts from us who are still cheap, Lonnie and/or Luka, and get some you assets for Collins.

[Chinook]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

[Mr. Body]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

Jimminy Cricket he's worth much more than a 21st draft pick.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The owner has come out since the playoffs, and said he doesn’t think they can keep the team together. They can get rid of a BUNCH of other players,and then need to go buy some in FA to replace them. Or, they can let one relatively inexpensive player walk when he’s no longer inexpensive. Or, they could take some redundant parts from us who are still cheap, Lonnie and/or Luka, and get some you assets for Collins.

I'm praying they let go Collins then.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

[exstatic]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

You severely undervalue DJ.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

Chinook, I like all your post! But I disagree on Murray. In my opinion, Murray is rapidly developing into an all star. By this coming season he could have a reliable 3-pt shot and will be a 20+ point Guy. With his confidence, work ethic, he could be a our foundation guy. Plus, he is a very good rebounder and defender.

[Chinook]

You severely undervalue DJ.

It depends. A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least valuable of the young players SA has. Of course, I'd be happy if SA got a better trade for him. But clean cap and a new young PG who has a good defensive rep isn't that bad. It just shows how for argument's sake the team could still build around young players and have a max slot open even while throwing everything at Collins.

[Chinook]

Jimminy Cricket he's worth much more than a 21st draft pick.

Did you mix up Jared and Jimmy, or is Jimminy Cricket someone's nickname?

[Dejounte]

It depends. A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least valuable of the young players SA has. Of course, I'd be happy if SA got a better trade for him. But clean cap and a new young PG who has a good defensive rep isn't that bad. It just shows how for argument's sake the team could still build around young players and have a max slot open even while throwing everything at Collins.

This is so easily wrong that it took seconds for me to disprove it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/oh0ptt/harper_dejounte_murray_and_derrick_white_could/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[exstatic]

It depends. A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least valuable of the young players SA has. Of course, I'd be happy if SA got a better trade for him. But clean cap and a new young PG who has a good defensive rep isn't that bad. It just shows how for argument's sake the team could still build around young players and have a max slot open even while throwing everything at Collins.

Neither the fans of this team, nor the fans of other teams make the decisions about drafting or FAs.

The two players every guard fears to bring the ball up against for a whole game are Jrue and DJ.

[Chinook]

This is so easily wrong that it took seconds for me to disprove it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/oh0ptt/harper_dejounte_murray_and_derrick_white_could/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

You actually didn't disprove anything. I didn't say "every fan believes Murray is the least valuable". You showed an example of some dudes on Reddit thinking Murray is the Spurs' core. To an extent I even agree with them that Pop probably still considers Murray the team's franchise. But I guess that's why when Pop stubs his toe, I don't feel it. A lot of fans basically think of Murray as a defensive guard with bad offense. I usually push back on that when it's on like RGM, because despite my rep, I don't actually hate Murray. I don't think he's less valuable than Walker or even Johnson (whom a lot of other fans love the most, if you were wondering), but I do think him being the franchise holds the Spurs back more than Mills, Gay and DeRozan ever could.

[Ignazzz]

Woj, 12:01: The San Antonio Spurs have signed Patty Mills to a 3 year $45 million deal.& Rudy Gay 39/3 Last year TO

[Chinook]

Neither the fans of this team, nor the fans of other teams make the decisions about drafting or FAs.

That doesn't mean that other GMs don't agree. Remember how basically no one offered anything for Leonard because it turned out they agreed with fans on a bunch of knit-picky shit and tried to leverage the Spurs? Murray's flaws aren't just fan fiction. Again, though, it misses the point I was trying to make. That point wasn't getting fair value for Murray means a pick in the 20s or whatever. It was more that the pieces on the team basically work with a better way of organizing rather than the idea that they have to try to tank or take lotto tickets to have a future.


The two players every guard fears to bring the ball up against for a whole game are Jrue and DJ.

Yeah... I think I read Dejounte saying something like. I'm assuming some article came out with some stat saying that. All I will say I hope some other team reads it and it convinces them to up their offer.

[duncan2150]

If i trade someone it will be White, Dejounte is younger, improving every year ... also trading murray for a pick 15-20 will be pretty bad imo. Murray is a player that give you something with value : a good player( package murray +...) or moving up in the draft.

[SpursDynasty85]

If i trade someone it will be White, Dejounte is younger, improving every year ... also trading murray for a pick 15-20 will be pretty bad imo. Murray is a player that give you something with value : a good player( package murray +...) or moving up in the draft.


I agree. I think Spurs like White better but the upside of Murray growing into a leader for the next 12 years might be too strong to pass by. This year should be a proper rebuild year and giving DJ the keys makes more sense than White. One more lottery pick next year and we should be in the playoffs the following one.

[mo7888]

I'm not buying the athletic report although, I'm for moving one of them (and both if it were in a package for a real alpha). I see DJM as higher valued but I do think White could bring a pick between 16-25. I would need more for DJM.

[Chinook]

No one cares that White is older. They're people, not milk.

[Mr. Body]

Did you mix up Jared and Jimmy, or is Jimminy Cricket someone's nickname?

I guess people don't know Pinocchio anymore?

[KDKSpurs24]

No one cares that White is older. They're people, not milk.
I’m sure they care that he gets hurt often, though.

[CGD]

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DJ + DDR new deal would likely match Simmons $38M, just saying…

[dokdok]

I really hope we keep Dejounte. I can see where White gets moved but he seems to be a Pop favourite as well. Probably we end up doing nothing as is usual..

[BacktoBasics]

You severely undervalue DJ.

This. It would be utterly stupid to trade Murray for the 21st pick. It’s highly unlikely to land a better player than Murray in the late first.

[slick'81]

This. It would be utterly stupid to trade Murray for the 21st pick. It’s highly unlikely to land a better player than Murray in the late first.


That is some straight retarded shit. Lets trade a guy who massively out played his draft position,and is coming into his own for a late first round pick and hope it works out:lmao dont have to even discuss it because even the spurs fo isn't that stupid

[Teamduncan21]

It simply says they are tradable. If there's a good deal spurs is willing to add them. That is different from they are on trading block. Trading for 21st pick (unless we are confident we can draft someone obviously better which won't be a guarantee cause 21st pick) is quite unlikely unless it's part of some.packagr where we get a star player in return

[The Truth #6]

Now, would I trade Lonnie for the 21st pick if I could get one of: Duarte, Springer, Trey Murphy, Garuba, or Thor? Absolutely.

[talkspurs]

Jimminy Cricket he's worth much more than a 21st draft pick.

Some people are just so desperate to get rid of him. I am surprised I have not seen a Murry for a 2nd rd pick top 59 protected or something like that. He is probably the best player on the Spurs and more will see it this coming year.

[Dejounte]

You actually didn't disprove anything. I didn't say "every fan believes Murray is the least valuable". You showed an example of some dudes on Reddit thinking Murray is the Spurs' core. To an extent I even agree with them that Pop probably still considers Murray the team's franchise. But I guess that's why when Pop stubs his toe, I don't feel it. A lot of fans basically think of Murray as a defensive guard with bad offense. I usually push back on that when it's on like RGM, because despite my rep, I don't actually hate Murray. I don't think he's less valuable than Walker or even Johnson (whom a lot of other fans love the most, if you were wondering), but I do think him being the franchise holds the Spurs back more than Mills, Gay and DeRozan ever could.

I feel like different points are being discussed here:

1) Your previous post said, "A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least value"
2) What Pop considers Murray's role as
3) Murray's strength and weaknesses
4) How Murray holds the team back more than others

I'm only interested in the first, numbers 2-4 are too much to unpack because it's all purely opinion

I think for #1 MAYBE I didn't capture what you were looking for in that link, though I was pretty sure I saw some text that was related. Even then, I think by now you understand it's probably a heavy hobby of mine to keep track of what's going on with the Spurs in all forms of media. What you brought up was your experience on RealGM and what you may have read there formed your conclusion that "most fans hold DJ in this regard" which I don't think is totally fair. My experience on multiple platforms (IG, Twitter, Other teams' forum, Reddit, sometimes RGM) is I've seen a large share of fans from other teams covet DJ in a big way, and if I wanted to I could do a thorough search of posts, tweets, and so forth and present it here but that is MY experience just like yours is YOUR experience with RealGM. That is why I was so confident to say that your statement was wrong and it was not exclusive to a single reddit topic. Now, I could post those hundreds of tweets and posts but I'm pretty sure you believe me. Whether or not that would be enough to convince you is another story. Anyway, I TOTALLY understand why you post the way you do in recent years and you are entitled to have those opinions obviously, but the reason I felt I needed to chime in on this was because I don't think it's fair to project your feelings onto others when they aren't true. That is all.

[tbdog]

I am for trading one of white or Murray because it hasn't worked. But perhaps we can at least have a look at how it works if DDR is gone.

I am on the Collins wagon. 30 p/y is an overpay, but unfortunately if you pay him what he is worth, Hawks match. Then Spurs could go after McDermott for the rest of the coin. Resign Mills and Dieng . That team is a young, good shooting team with solid defence and vets.

If Collins and DDR get signed, then Spurs should absolutely consider trading White or Murray for a starting shooter.

But atm, there is no news about DDR resigning. I think Spurs go after a starting 4, move Johnson to the 3, and keep White and Murray. I think Vassell could start.

[R. DeMurre]

Trade Making is the Achilles' heel of of this FO. If the Front Office of the Spurs were a player, I'd tell him he needed to believe in himself and be more aggressive. I'd use positive reinforcement and gentle but firm persuasion. I'd tell him, "you're not going to improve if you don't push yourself really really hard." The FO is like Danny Green. Drafting is their 3 point shot, but making trades are their handles.

[Chinook]

I feel like different points are being discussed here:

1) Your previous post said, "A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least value"
2) What Pop considers Murray's role as
3) Murray's strength and weaknesses
4) How Murray holds the team back more than others

1) Wasn't answered by your rebuttal, because all you did was post some fans who said Murray was "the core". That was a bad counter for two main reasons. The most obvious is that since I didn't say that every fan thought that way, showing a sample of the opposite isn't really relevant. It would be like if I said, "There are a lot of blue balloons in this bag", you can rustle around there, pull out a handful of red balloons and say, "See? I destroyed your whole argument". The reason is that the posts on reddit you cited used terms like core or franchise to describe Murray (and White). Those are terms that describe how a team values one of their players, not how other teams do. I agree that Murray is likely the Spurs' core and franchise player in the sense that I do think the Spurs view him highly and promote him as the face of the team. What that doesn't mean though is that those fans of other teams want Murray to have the same status on their teams. It's the same way that Wiggins is considered to be a solid piece of GS' core by GS fans, but no one else views him as a positive trade asset.

What I will say is I was using a narrow scope when talking about "young players". I obviously don't mean guys like Eubanks, Jones and Weatherspoon. I also wasn't counting Samanic or even Walker. I was basically talking about Murray, White, Johnson and Vassell, since those are the players who come up most often in trade talks (besides DeRozan, who doesn't count because he's old).

Anyway, you can show a lot of fans loving DJM, but that doesn't counter that a lot of them don't. I think you're missing that. Both ideas can co-exist with evidence. Yes, I believe your statement, but I also believe my statement.

People have been obsessed with the idea of other team's fans not loving Murray or what I had him traded for, but that wasn't the point of the post I made. The point was a quick trade to basically remove him from the team without having to worry about the incoming player and where they'd play. That means just a cap-space trade. New York is the non-Spurs leader in that regard, and Thibs apparently wants a PG. So bam, he goes there, a pick comes back and we can get to free agency with just some Tank-a-Thon swap-ins for picks (like I didn't even pick 41 because that wasn't the point). Then the team can get to a roster that promotes positive growth for their young players than the dog-eat-dog offense they have last year that relied too much on every player taking turns with individual creation. And the defense could improve due to Vassell's and Johnon's growth and replacing DeRozan with a positive defender with size for his position. Add in that the two rookies are both positive defenders, and it's probably a better unit over all.

[The Truth #6]

1) Wasn't answered by your rebuttal, because all you did was post some fans who said Murray was "the core". That was a bad counter for two main reasons. The most obvious is that since I didn't say that every fan thought that way, showing a sample of the opposite isn't really relevant. It would be like if I said, "There are a lot of blue balloons in this bag", you can rustle around there, pull out a handful of red balloons and say, "See? I destroyed your whole argument". The reason is that the posts on reddit you cited used terms like core or franchise to describe Murray (and White). Those are terms that describe how a team values one of their players, not how other teams do. I agree that Murray is likely the Spurs' core and franchise player in the sense that I do think the Spurs view him highly and promote him as the face of the team. What that doesn't mean though is that those fans of other teams want Murray to have the same status on their teams. It's the same way that Wiggins is considered to be a solid piece of GS' core by GS fans, but no one else views him as a positive trade asset.

What I will say is I was using a narrow scope when talking about "young players". I obviously don't mean guys like Eubanks, Jones and Weatherspoon. I also wasn't counting Samanic or even Walker. I was basically talking about Murray, White, Johnson and Vassell, since those are the players who come up most often in trade talks (besides DeRozan, who doesn't count because he's old).

Anyway, you can show a lot of fans loving DJM, but that doesn't counter that a lot of them don't. I think you're missing that. Both ideas can co-exist with evidence. Yes, I believe your statement, but I also believe my statement.

People have been obsessed with the idea of other team's fans not loving Murray or what I had him traded for, but that wasn't the point of the post I made. The point was a quick trade to basically remove him from the team without having to worry about the incoming player and where they'd play. That means just a cap-space trade. New York is the non-Spurs leader in that regard, and Thibs apparently wants a PG. So bam, he goes there, a pick comes back and we can get to free agency with just some Tank-a-Thon swap-ins for picks (like I didn't even pick 41 because that wasn't the point). Then the team can get to a roster that promotes positive growth for their young players than the dog-eat-dog offense they have last year that relied too much on every player taking turns with individual creation. And the defense could improve due to Vassell's and Johnon's growth and replacing DeRozan with a positive defender with size for his position. Add in that the two rookies are both positive defenders, and it's probably a better unit over all.

This is an amazing post. Do you work as a lawyer or in politics? The complete opposite of The Drew Show, yet you arrive at poetry in your own way.

I basically agree with your overall points. I think trading Dejounte makes basketball sense, despite Pop most likely never considering it. I would keep him as an off ball guard, but he would likely never consider that either, and so trading high has merit. Will his trade value be higher next season? Quite possibly. If Pop leaves, which I’m reluctant to accept yet have some hope for because Hardy left and perhaps realized he wasn’t next in line, then maybe the FO will be able to operate slightly differently with trading players.

[Dejounte]

1) Wasn't answered by your rebuttal, because all you did was post some fans who said Murray was "the core". That was a bad counter for two main reasons. The most obvious is that since I didn't say that every fan thought that way, showing a sample of the opposite isn't really relevant. It would be like if I said, "There are a lot of blue balloons in this bag", you can rustle around there, pull out a handful of red balloons and say, "See? I destroyed your whole argument". The reason is that the posts on reddit you cited used terms like core or franchise to describe Murray (and White). .

So I have no idea why you're singularly focused on the reddit link when I already addressed it by saying "maybe I didn't capture what you were looking for in the link". You're rehashing something I acknowledged in the post you quoted, and then arrived to the same point I did with this text:


1 Yes, I believe your statement, but I also believe my statement.

...which matches my overarching point of "present it here but that is MY experience just like yours is YOUR experience with RealGM."

If a lot of fans of other teams consider DJ to have the least value and you also acknowledge that there are a lot of fans who think the opposite, then it sounds a rabbit hole-type conversation.

There's no real way to settle this (of why your statement should be more believed than my statement, or vice versa) unless a universal poll was taken and we both agree on the terms.

[talkspurs]

It depends. A lot of fans of other teams consider him to be the least valuable of the young players SA has. Of course, I'd be happy if SA got a better trade for him. But clean cap and a new young PG who has a good defensive rep isn't that bad. It just shows how for argument's sake the team could still build around young players and have a max slot open even while throwing everything at Collins.

So if other teams consider him one of the least valuable young players and we consider him one of the most valuable young players why would we trade him? There would be no agreement on value. Part of the reason any trade happens is because people agree on value. 5 one dollar bills and a $5 bill have the same value monetarily and usually is pretty easy to change however sometimes people may not be willing to do that because they enjoy the flexibility of the 1s more or the like the ease of carrying just one bill.

[Chinook]

So I have no idea why you're singularly focused on the reddit link when I already addressed it by saying "maybe I didn't capture what you were looking for in the link". You're rehashing something I acknowledged in the post you quoted, and then arrived to the same point I did with this text:



...which matches my overarching point of "present it here but that is MY experience just like yours is YOUR experience with RealGM."

If a lot of fans of other teams consider DJ to have the least value and you also acknowledge that there are a lot of fans who think the opposite, then it sounds a rabbit hole-type conversation.

There's no real way to settle this (of why your statement should be more believed than my statement, or vice versa) unless a universal poll was taken and we both agree on the terms.

Man, YOU took special issue with something I said (which wasn't the point of the post it was contained in). And are now like, "Yeah, I guess we can just agree to disagree on that." My post was never about Murray's trade value. That was a critique you and other posters here decided to try to wage. I don't really care if GMs would trade the first-overall for him or demand the Spurs trade four firsts to get rid of him. That wasn't the point.

But that didn't mean there weren't things to talk about, like the difference between being a "core player" and having trade value. Insofar as our discourse had a workable core, it was there. I totally understand you not wanting to get into that, and I'm cool with leaving the discussion here. I think we should leave most of the detail on trade proposals to other threads anyway, but something as big as trading Murray or White obviously has a huge pull on what the team would or could do in free agency, so talking about it in broad strokes makes sense here.

[Dejounte]

So if other teams consider him one of the least valuable young players and we consider him one of the most valuable young players why would we trade him? There would be no agreement on value. Part of the reason any trade happens is because people agree on value. 5 one dollar bills and a $5 bill have the same value monetarily and usually is pretty easy to change however sometimes people may not be willing to do that because they enjoy the flexibility of the 1s more or the like the ease of carrying just one bill.

Although the input of fans give a sense of what value a player gives to their team, in the end it doesn’t matter since it’s the front office who pulls off the trades. What’s probably more important is knowing the team you follow and I think many people forget how the Spurs are run: risk averse, values continuity, doesn’t make big splashes.

[Dejounte]

Man, YOU took special issue with something I said (which wasn't the point of the post it was contained in). And are now like, "Yeah, I guess we can just agree to disagree on that." My post was never about Murray's trade value. That was a critique you and other posters here decided to try to wage. I don't really care if GMs would trade the first-overall for him or demand the Spurs trade four firsts to get rid of him. That wasn't the point.
.

Special issue? I'm sorry no one ever in the history of this board picked apart someone else's post and has focused on any single matter. It's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree", I've laid out the framework of why it doesn't make sense to agree. If that still doesn't make sense, oh well.

[Chinook]

So if other teams consider him one of the least valuable young players and we consider him one of the most valuable young players why would we trade him? There would be no agreement on value. Part of the reason any trade happens is because people agree on value. 5 one dollar bills and a $5 bill have the same value monetarily and usually is pretty easy to change however sometimes people may not be willing to do that because they enjoy the flexibility of the 1s more or the like the ease of carrying just one bill.

Because "value" is a bullshit concept. You don't win games by having more "value" than the other team. (In my opinion) the Spurs should trade Murray because developing around White, Vassell and Johnson as the perimeter unit with a strong PF (doesn't have to be Collins as there are other options) gives the Spurs a balanced roster on both ends while also letting their young perimeter players grow in an environment that's conducive to development of good habits. I don't believe that will exist with Murray, White and Johnson all as key perimeter players, and I'm concerned that Murray in particular won't let himself be the role-player he actually is He's become too entrenched in the team's identity for his talent level.

You have to be willing to cycle players when you rebuild rather than just let them sit there and age. The team needs to be aggressive in leveraging the value they have toward that goal, so moving Murray makes more sense than moving White (who's actually way better than Murray -- like to a point where I don't think ST really understands), Walker (who has no trade value and is already on the bench) or Johnson (who plays a different position that only conflicts with Murray in the sense that both primary score by driving). Could you trade White and have a lot of the same flexibility? Yes, but I think the team now and in the future would be worse.

Obviously PATFO might see it differently, but I disagree with them and then them considering Murray the core when he's so obviously (in my opinion) not is one of the main things holding back the team.

[KDKSpurs24]

You have to be willing to cycle players when you rebuild rather than just let them sit there and age. The team needs to be aggressive in leveraging the value they have toward that goal, so moving Murray makes more sense than moving White (who's actually way better than Murray -- like to a point where I don't think ST really understands), Walker (who has no trade value and is already on the bench) or Johnson (who plays a different position that only conflicts with Murray in the sense that both primary score by driving). Could you trade White and have a lot of the same flexibility? Yes, but I think the team now and in the future would be worse.

Obviously PATFO might see it differently, but I disagree with them and then them considering Murray the core when he's so obviously (in my opinion) not is one of the main things holding back the team.

Way better? There’s no way that this can be the case if he’s always hurt. I like Derrick a lot as a player and I want him to succeed but his health is a huge question mark. DeJounte had his ACL injury in the past but he played every game that he suited up for this season. “The best ability is availability” is something that holds true in this case.

[BacktoBasics]

Because "value" is a bullshit concept. You don't win games by having more "value" than the other team. (In my opinion) the Spurs should trade Murray because developing around White, Vassell and Johnson as the perimeter unit with a strong PF (doesn't have to be Collins as there are other options) gives the Spurs a balanced roster on both ends while also letting their young perimeter players grow in an environment that's conducive to development of good habits. I don't believe that will exist with Murray, White and Johnson all as key perimeter players, and I'm concerned that Murray in particular won't let himself be the role-player he actually is He's become too entrenched in the team's identity for his talent level.

You have to be willing to cycle players when you rebuild rather than just let them sit there and age. The team needs to be aggressive in leveraging the value they have toward that goal, so moving Murray makes more sense than moving White (who's actually way better than Murray -- like to a point where I don't think ST really understands), Walker (who has no trade value and is already on the bench) or Johnson (who plays a different position that only conflicts with Murray in the sense that both primary score by driving). Could you trade White and have a lot of the same flexibility? Yes, but I think the team now and in the future would be worse.

Obviously PATFO might see it differently, but I disagree with them and then them considering Murray the core when he's so obviously (in my opinion) not is one of the main things holding back the team.
Even with this logic you have to make a trade that makes sense. Cycling players for the sake of cycling puts you at even worse odds of improving your team.

DJ is probably worth a lottery pick to a playoff or near playoff team but no bottom of the barrel team is going to give you a lottery pick because the potential for a star player outweighs DJ who’s not going to move the needle on a shit team.

On the other end of this moving DJ for a pick that falls 18 or later is crazy stupid. Especially on his contract. We’re not going to return anything worthwhile on paper and the potential for a star at those picks doesn’t justify the move.

The only smart play is if there’s an opportunity to package him up for a proven star and I don’t see any deal like that out there. Not when a team like GS is actively looking for the same thing with better assets to offer. He’ll even the Pacers could put a more enticing package together over DJ, the 12th and a prospect.

[Chinook]

Way better?

Yes, way better. And I'm not talking about the fictional version of White that's durable. I mean White, fragile as he is and who tends to come back from injuries slowly when he does play, is way better than Murray. I think STer have fallen into this belief that there's some kind of debate about them where you can choose your horse and it's just a matter of opinion or whatever, but if you open up a stat sheet, you'll see it's not close and never has been. That's obviously true in terms of rate stats, but it's also true when it comes to aggregate impact stats. Even this season, where DJM played more than twice as many minutes, he got 4.1 WAR compared to White's 4.0. That's the kind of injury disparity you need to make them equal.

This also ignores that you don't HAVE to build around either of them. It's not like if White is ultimately unable to carry the load, it makes trade Murray retroactively bad. In a case where the Spurs did trade DJM, they can and should pay a hefty price for a backup PG who can carry a bigger load when called upon ala Payne or Jackson. In the very least they should invest in a developmental PG to compete with Jones like with Butler in my original post. No one's pretending like White is going to be healthy his whole career. But he doesn't have to be for it to make sense for the Spurs to move Murray.

[Chinook]

Even with this logic you have to make a trade that makes sense. Cycling players for the sake of cycling puts you at even worse odds of improving your team.

DJ is probably worth a lottery pick to a playoff or near playoff team but no bottom of the barrel team is going to give you a lottery pick because the potential for a star player outweighs DJ who’s not going to move the needle on a shit team.

On the other end of this moving DJ for a pick that falls 18 or later is crazy stupid. Especially on his contract. We’re not going to return anything worthwhile on paper and the potential for a star at those picks doesn’t justify the move.

The only smart play is if there’s an opportunity to package him up for a proven star and I don’t see any deal like that out there. Not when a team like GS is actively looking for the same thing with better assets to offer. He’ll even the Pacers could put a more enticing package together over DJ, the 12th and a prospect.

You can't go into rebuilding with the idea that you'll just keep everybody. That's true if the rest of my post (which is basically that the Spurs can be a better team than they are now both now and in the future even if they basically just gave Murray away) flows through. If that's the case, then "just keeping" Murray because you didn't find a contender with a lotto pick would actively be stalling the roster. That's how cleaving to "value" can hamper an organization.

Of course, this is when you'd come back saying that my post actually doesn't flow through and that Murray makes the team better and so on. I disagree with that and the stats back that up. Because I don't think Murray has a really high return threshold, I don't see any dissonance between what teams offer and what the Spurs need to get back to justify the trade. I think basically getting out of his contact and getting a first in the high 20s has the potential to work out for them way more than getting a pick in the 10-18 range with bad salary would. Are there trades in that vein that could be great? Yes. And I'd love if like Philly thought Murray was a large incentive in a Simmons trade. I'm not turning away teams that are offering more. But in my mind, the key benefit in trading Murray would Murray being on another team so the Spurs can build and offensive system that lets the perimeter players grow. I want the best return the Spurs can get within that context, but I don't think them running back the same perimeter guys on the roster is a good outcome for the team.

[CGD]

It’s absolutely time to consolidate pieces. The Murray v White debate really doesn’t matter as much as what comes back, and if it helps provide a clearer logic/structure to a rebuild than what currently is the case.

[SpursDynasty85]

It’s absolutely time to consolidate pieces. The Murray v White debate really doesn’t matter as much as what comes back, and if it helps provide a clearer logic/structure to a rebuild than what currently is the case.

I agree. This year should be a great opportunity to consolidate and upgrade our pieces especially because of the sign and trade possibilities with our vets.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah now is as good a time as any to trade Murray. I believe he is what he is at this point. He’s never going to be a 3 point shooter. You keep White simply bc the defense is comparable, his shooting is better (and at the very least he takes 3s), and his floor vision is much better in the pic n roll. I mean if we draft that big man Sengun, trade DJ to NY and then draft Duarte wouldn’t that solve a lot of issues our team has? Hell we could still use the money on Collins and then our team looks pretty damn interesting. We could even ship off Poodle while we are at it.

White/ Tre
Lonnie/ Duarte
KJ/ Vassell
Luka, another cheap pick up
Collins/ Sengun/ Goran

[objective]

I generally agree that White is significantly more useful than Murray, and that Murray with White makes for an awkward fit that probably makes things harder rather than easier. And if I had to choose one to go with in the future, it would be White.

But I also think that Murray has a reasonable contract, but perhaps even more importanly ....

I don't think there's much of a market for him. Non-shooting or non-self-generating point guards who also are not great pick and roll players ... who needs them? Point Guard is one of the more clogged positions in the league, and the teams that are looking for them aren't looking for guys who can't shoot.

Chicago might want Lonzo Ball to play defense and do occasional ball handling, but he also can spread the floor. Dallas or Philly might want Conley or Lowry to take charge and spread the floor, that doesn't make Murray a good consolation prize.

I don't even buy him in New York. He doesn't seem like a Thibs guy to me. If he gets screamed at by Thibs instead of the kid gloves he's gotten in SA he might want to throw hands. Imagine the NY media cesspool amplifying Murray's unstable social media attention chasing and things could go bad for him quickly, and he's not going to be adding space to Randle or Barrett.

So I think the Spurs are more or less stuck with him. He's not bad enough that it would make sense to dump him for nothing and he's not good enough to generate demand to get solid assets back.

He's Ricky Rubio with a phone stuck in his hand. Rubio's last two teams vastly improved once they got rid of him and replaced him with a guard who could shoot and Rubio was only desired by the Wolves for his mentorship and locker room presence. Nobody's looking to place Murray in the same role.

[BacktoBasics]

You can't go into rebuilding with the idea that you'll just keep everybody. That's true if the rest of my post (which is basically that the Spurs can be a better team than they are now both now and in the future even if they basically just gave Murray away) flows through. If that's the case, then "just keeping" Murray because you didn't find a contender with a lotto pick would actively be stalling the roster. That's how cleaving to "value" can hamper an organization.

Of course, this is when you'd come back saying that my post actually doesn't flow through and that Murray makes the team better and so on. I disagree with that and the stats back that up. Because I don't think Murray has a really high return threshold, I don't see any dissonance between what teams offer and what the Spurs need to get back to justify the trade. I think basically getting out of his contact and getting a first in the high 20s has the potential to work out for them way more than getting a pick in the 10-18 range with bad salary would. Are there trades in that vein that could be great? Yes. And I'd love if like Philly thought Murray was a large incentive in a Simmons trade. I'm not turning away teams that are offering more. But in my mind, the key benefit in trading Murray would Murray being on another team so the Spurs can build and offensive system that lets the perimeter players grow. I want the best return the Spurs can get within that context, but I don't think them running back the same perimeter guys on the roster is a good outcome for the team.

Rebuilding doesn’t have to exist on one end of the pendulum. There’s a number ways to look at the flaws in your logic but another one that sticks out is the reality that this team has no identity and no star player. I’m not suggesting we simply collect neutral or net negative players but there’s no sense in moving an above average core player for a late 1st round pick.

Perhaps you do that if you’re a solid playoff team and you can get a lessor role player that’s a better fit or fills a need and the first balances the trade. Otherwise it’s makes no sense. Patience right now is one of the most undervalued aspects of a rebuild. We would be so much better off stacking mid level players and then using them to level up to better player or moving them for pieces that are a better fit after you get your star or better define your team identity.

He’s not even on a bad contract and you want to move him for a pick that is likely to return a player with less potential. Doesn’t make sense.

[Chinook]

Rebuilding doesn’t have to exist on one end of the pendulum. There’s a number ways to look at the flaws in your logic but another one that sticks out is the reality that this team has no identity and no star player. I’m not suggesting we simply collect neutral or net negative players but there’s no sense in moving an above average core player for a late 1st round pick.

The issue is there's no benefit of collecting positive-value players in a vacuum. Having value isn't the same thing as being good, and while it would be nice to have value to use to become good, you need to actually use that value and not just hold onto it. Of course, Murray isn't actually an "above-average core player". That's the kind of thinking that needs to stop. What Murray is is an average starter with pluses and minuses that is marketed as a franchise player and gets the touches of a first option. He has value -- I'd argue he'd have more value away from the Spurs than with them -- but the idea that a early 20's pick and no returning salary is a cheap package is optimistic. I'd love for it to be more, but there's not a high bar for what's too little, because the reality of keeping him, of putting him in the "core" of catering the offense to him, to giving him a disproportionate level of credit for the defense -- that reality is a negative. It holds the team back all on its own.

And you can see it in the people who challenge the idea of the team drafting guards by citing the guards on the team. As if any of them matter in that regard. The team needs to be able to cycle the players, not just in terms of the roster but also in terms of the roles. Murray is going into his sixth season. We're not talking about patience or the lack of it. He doesn't have to be a confirmed bust to move him. It just has to be part of a plan to keep moving forward. The team can obviously move forward in scenarios where they just dump Murray. This continues to not be argued against. If we're not arguing that trading Murray for 21 makes the team worse, if we're just talking about value for value's sake, then we aren't talking about anything at this point.


He’s not even on a bad contract and you want to move him for a pick that is likely to return a player with less potential. Doesn’t make sense.

It's not a coincidence that the Spurs keep drafting "steals". I think Spurs fans have bought into that praise so much that they confuse it for reality. The truth is that average potential for NBA players is way higher than some believe. It doesn't mean the draft is a crapshoot, but it does mean that they are always guys in the 20s or later who will be good players.

2014: Anderson -- A guy who's been a better player than Murray
2015: Miluntinov -- Obviously this pick will never be okay, but they passed up on comparable or better players than Murray to waste this pick.
2016: Murray -- as good as Murray.
2017: White -- Way better than Murray
2018: Walker -- Not better than Murray. In general that draft hasn't looked great after 18. Still, there are a couple of players like Robinson and Trent that are highly regarded, with Robinson having "potential" and Trent in line for a similar contract to Murray
2019: Samanic, Johnson -- Johnson's another late-first "steal". Samanic is bleh. The Spurs passed up on two player comparable to Murray in terms of early impact, but we don't know enough to know if they'll develop.
2020: Vassell -- Think his potential is better than Murray and that he'll show that soon. But it's definitely too early to know how many of the players picked later in the draft will rise.

I don't think it makes sense to assume the Spurs will struggle to find a guard with similar potential to Murray. He's not one of the uber prospects of the NBA. There are a number of guards projected to go in the 20s in this upcoming draft, and a lot of them are taller and good defenders. I'm not going to say they'll all be better than Murray, but one of them is likely to be.

[duncan2150]

Anderson better than Murray ? when ? i don't understand the thing with Murray. Why going for a pick when you already have the guy, who is in progress every year.

[TD 21]

I just think it's paramount that the Spurs trade Murray if they want to move toward a clean roster with a good developmental framework. Then they can sign a backup PG or draft one to compete with Jones. Let's assume they trade Murray to New York for 21 and use that pick on Jared Butler. Then they could use 12 on Kispert and some random PF with 41. Bring back Dieng and you get.

White, Butler, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Kispert, KBD
Collins, Samanic, PF at 41
Poeltl, Dieng, Eubanks,

And if I did my numbers correctly, that's enough space to look at another big contract.

Presuming Butler's heart isn't projected to impact his career anytime soon, I'd be down with 21 and a flier on Knox (though I don't think the Knicks would do it).



I don't think there's much of a market for him. Non-shooting or non-self-generating point guards who also are not great pick and roll players ... who needs them? Point Guard is one of the more clogged positions in the league, and the teams that are looking for them aren't looking for guys who can't shoot.

So I think the Spurs are more or less stuck with him. He's not bad enough that it would make sense to dump him for nothing and he's not good enough to generate demand to get solid assets back.

He's Ricky Rubio with a phone stuck in his hand. Rubio's last two teams vastly improved once they got rid of him and replaced him with a guard who could shoot and Rubio was only desired by the Wolves for his mentorship and locker room presence. Nobody's looking to place Murray in the same role.

I've long argued this.

In a vacuum, he was a good value pick at 29, has a decent contract and has worked his way into being a decent player.

In reality, good lucking finding a team who wants a so called "PG", who can't shoot or get to the line, is a sub par play maker and has delusions of grandeur. More than an undesirable archetype, virtually the antithesis of what teams are looking for.

[Degoat]

Hey guys! That Hawks insider guy NBASupes posted this today, mentions the spurs going for a full rebuild.

In info I just got hot off the presser is who could be shopped or are being shopped. This list is WOW! I only got big names.
For us, just JC is seeking SnT options via agent. I am hearing there is interest in JC right now for a SnT but as a main FA is lukewarm due to the salary demands. I still lean to Atlanta and JC will work out a deal on Day 1 of the moratorium but if JC wants the most money, a SnT is the route. I am hearing the teams who are interested in JC for a SnT want to add him for a player on their roster. The teams I am hearing are interested is Dallas, Memphis, Miami, Minny, Portland, SAC, Indy, and Houston. As I've said and others have said, things are fluid. If a lot of these teams start missing on guys, JC could be a main target but what I was told, they want him at a certain price and that price is cheaper than what ATL already offered. Memphis is the intriguing team in all of this. A SnT of JC for JJJ would be a deal I think Atlanta would consider not saying it was offered behind the scenes. Since the Bogigate, teams are more careful about leaks and leaves it to the agents.
Guys getting shopped in the East:
M. Smart - Seeking upgrade
T. Young - Seeking upgrade
C. Sexton - Rookie Contract Questions
M. Bamba - Rookie Contract Questions
K. Love - Wants Out, possible buyout
M. Turner - Seeking assets or better fit with Sabonis
M. Brogdon - Seeking upgrade
T. Ross - Seeking assets
B. Simmons - Seeking upgrade
P. Siakam - They are looking to see if there is a GREAT deal on the market. Right now, there is not a great deal yet.
A, Baynes - Seeking assets
R. Westbrook - His agent asked to test the market and see if a contender is interested
D. Bertans - Seeking upgrade
The seeking upgrades are hard to get as you can tell. Simmons is on the market but they want like a J. Tatum type, if that's the case, you will likely not see a trade. There are a lot of Rookie Contract Questions for this 2018 class. I didn't add the guys who have no value like Knox.
In the West. I am also hearing San Antonio is strongly considering rebuilding as an option. That could mean DeRozan, Mills, and Gay are available for cheaper than expected. They are another team that could be holding contracts that are less desirable for draft assets. They are still keeping their great contracts guys.
D. Powell - Seeking upgrade
M. Kleber - Seeking upgrade
WCS - Seeking upgrade
K. Porzingis - Seeking upgrade
An. Wiggins - Seeking upgrade
J. Wall - Asked to be on the trading block to see what his market is like. I am told, there is NO interest in Wall. Ouch!
E. Gordon - Seeking upgrade
D. House Jr - Seeking upgrade
D. Augustin - Willing to trade him for free. He might be a Kris Dunn option.
L. Kennard - Seeking upgrade
Rondo - Seeking upgrade
Harrell (if opts in) - Seeking upgrade
Kuzma - Seeking upgrade
J. Jackson Jr - Rookie Contract Questions
Culver - Seeking upgrade or asset
Rubio - Seeking upgrade
Okogie - Seeking upgrade
Lon. Ball - Same as JC, SnT options. Like JC, his SnT market is booming compared to his FA market which is stale. When you are demanding the salary they want, teams are reluctant.
S. Adams - Seeking upgrade or better fit with Zion
E. Bledsoe - Seeking upgrade or asset
K. Walker- - Seeking upgrade or asset
Mikal Bridges - Rookie Contract Questions
C. McCollum - Seeking upgrade
J. Nurkic - Seeking upgrade
A. Simons - Seeking upgrade
B. Hield - Seeking better fit or fits, not looking to downgrade but if they can save 5-10 million, they will be willing to take less talent wise.
M. Bagley III - Cap Issues and Rookie Contract Questions, could be had for cheap depending on R. Holmes FA status. SAC wants to keep Holmes as a priority.
D. Murray - Seeking major assets
D. White - Seeking major assets

JJJ, Mikal, and the Spurs news kinda shocked me. I was told, Mikal is a priority but the market for next year, they are saying, he could be a max kat. This is a team that has to pay CP3 the 2 year max this offseason, Ayton the max, already paying Booker. It's gonna be a serious question. I will say odds are, they try to work out a deal but if the max kat rumors are true, it's gonna be hard for PHX to keep him. I am told, he's a higher priority than CP3 so that's good and bad.
Good for Bridges but bad for CP3 but if they win it all, he might be back. People think Bridges is worth 4/85 but there are teams who will have money next year willing to max him out considering how hard it's to find his type. We seen this before with Otto Porter Jr. although Bridges has more potential than OPJ. JJJ is interesting. His people think he's a max kat while the org thinks he's a 4/60 million kat. He's likely unavailable outside of an upgrade but the fact that Memphis is interested in JC in a SnT says he could be had. I was told his trade value isn't bad but it's not Siakam either. His injuries and lack of improvement been noted.
Of course, SA rebuilding is a shock. It's not what they do but they are finding themselves as a rock in a hard place. Too good to be bad and too bad too be good. My guess is they are looking into a quick rebuild (2-3 year rebuild). I am hearing they have major interest in the players in this draft and could move their PGs for major upgrades.

[Dejounte]

^this guy didn’t get anything right during the trade deadline. I remember his words because I posted them. The dude is a conman.

[Degoat]

^this guy didn’t get anything right during the trade deadline. I remember his words because I posted them. The dude is a conman.

Probably soooo but I’m almost certain he called the hawks signing Gallo and bogi

[bluebellmaniac]

.

[objective]

That nbaSUPES Hawks guy or whatever is an example for some big misunderstandings in the conversations about the Spurs.

It's all on the word 'REBUILD'

To non Spurs fans, it just means not re-signing DeRozan, or Gay (or Mills) and then acting like it's some earthshaking news.

But Spurs fans after no extension for DeRozan and no playoffs had already baked that in. So to them rebuilding can mean moving on from everyone who's on a second contract like Murray and White and tanking

Rebuilding for the Spurs does not have to mean tanking and strip mining all value. They can rebuild by adding John Collins, and maneuvering 12 into a productive player.

[objective]

Presuming Butler's heart isn't projected to impact his career anytime soon, I'd be down with 21 and a flier on Knox (though I don't think the Knicks would do it).




I've long argued this.

In a vacuum, he was a good value pick at 29, has a decent contract and has worked his way into being a decent player.

In reality, good lucking finding a team who wants a so called "PG", who can't shoot or get to the line, is a sub par play maker and has delusions of grandeur. More than an undesirable archetype, virtually the antithesis of what teams are looking for.

Murray was also terrible at making post entry passes. Aldridge used to get mighty frustrated when he'd work his old ass off for position and have Murray unable to get him the ball, unlike White who could feed him in ways that led to easy scores.

[Dejounte]

Murray was also terrible at making post entry passes. Aldridge used to get mighty frustrated when he'd work his old ass off for position and have Murray unable to get him the ball, unlike White who could feed him in ways that led to easy scores.

I don’t care for Murray whether he goes or stays but I just want to point out that there’s an untrue statement (Murray not knowing how to do a post entry pass) in this post and probably indicative of someone who only watched the first half of the season.

Anyway, I look forward to eating my popcorn and reading people moan about Murray still being here next season.

[K...]

you don't trade murray for a late pick, it wont get value, but trading him for a flawed role player that intrigues the spurs or the right veteran to replace gay and mills? People just love to say killing derozan was addition through subtraction, but the same applies to murray, the trade would allow white, jones, and vassel to get more minutes and add a depth quality role player in the trade.

[objective]

I don’t care for Murray whether he goes or stays but I just want to point out that there’s an untrue statement (Murray not knowing how to do a post entry pass) in this post and probably indicative of someone who only watched the first half of the season.

Anyway, I look forward to eating my popcorn and reading people moan about Murray still being here next season.

Well, Aldridge didn't play the second half of the season so I don't think I missed any great improvements to Murray feeding him the ball.

I think he has flaws, but I'm not on a crusade to see him moved, so there probably won't be any anti Murray moaning from me.

[talkspurs]

Although the input of fans give a sense of what value a player gives to their team, in the end it doesn’t matter since it’s the front office who pulls off the trades. What’s probably more important is knowing the team you follow and I think many people forget how the Spurs are run: risk averse, values continuity, doesn’t make big splashes.

I agree with what you say but you missed the point I was making. It would apply to GMs as well. If Spurs value a player higher then other teams do then no trade is made. We saw this last year with LMA and DDR.

[talkspurs]

Because "value" is a bullshit concept. You don't win games by having more "value" than the other team. (In my opinion) the Spurs should trade Murray because developing around White, Vassell and Johnson as the perimeter unit with a strong PF (doesn't have to be Collins as there are other options) gives the Spurs a balanced roster on both ends while also letting their young perimeter players grow in an environment that's conducive to development of good habits. I don't believe that will exist with Murray, White and Johnson all as key perimeter players, and I'm concerned that Murray in particular won't let himself be the role-player he actually is He's become too entrenched in the team's identity for his talent level.



You have to be willing to cycle players when you rebuild rather than just let them sit there and age. The team needs to be aggressive in leveraging the value they have toward that goal, so moving Murray makes more sense than moving White (who's actually way better than Murray -- like to a point where I don't think ST really understands), Walker (who has no trade value and is already on the bench) or Johnson (who plays a different position that only conflicts with Murray in the sense that both primary score by driving). Could you trade White and have a lot of the same flexibility? Yes, but I think the team now and in the future would be worse.

Obviously PATFO might see it differently, but I disagree with them and then them considering Murray the core when he's so obviously (in my opinion) not is one of the main things holding back the team.

So you can win by pure talent that is what these super teams are trying to do. You can also win by having a team that plays the best together. Your best chance is to have both. DJM and KJ I think are the two most talented players on the Spurs and with Demar gone I think you will see them improve this year. White has shown lots of growth as well but I think is closet to his peak but is the oldest and has injury issues.

I dont deny you have to be willing to cycle players through but you have to be willing to cycle the right players through. This is why last season I was already saying Walker should be traded why he had some value.

[Teamduncan21]

That nbaSUPES Hawks guy or whatever is an example for some big misunderstandings in the conversations about the Spurs.

It's all on the word 'REBUILD'

To non Spurs fans, it just means not re-signing DeRozan, or Gay (or Mills) and then acting like it's some earthshaking news.

But Spurs fans after no extension for DeRozan and no playoffs had already baked that in. So to them rebuilding can mean moving on from everyone who's on a second contract like Murray and White and tanking

Rebuilding for the Spurs does not have to mean tanking and strip mining all value. They can rebuild by adding John Collins, and maneuvering 12 into a productive player.

If we follow what he said (assuming it's true) spurs are not going after collins

[CGD]

^this guy didn’t get anything right during the trade deadline. I remember his words because I posted them. The dude is a conman.

To be fair, intel in this business goes stale quick. So he could both have an inside track, and be “wrong” within a week.

I will say his instincts, whether based on intel or tea leaf reading, are good. The Bridge’s thing makes sense, for example.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/espnausnz/status/1414055845969661952?s=21

:lmao :lmao

[SAGirl]

John Collins is younger than Chris Duarte-- that's kind of incredible. Not a qualitative assessment at all, just an observation. Collins has gotten paid pretty well for four years already, and is about to get a gigantic pay raise, and Duarte is looking for his first rookie scale paycheck.
That puts Duarte in perspective for me more than it does Collins. Collins still has upside obviously.

[buttsR4rebounding]

That puts Duarte in perspective for me more than it does Collins. Collins still has upside obviously.

Duarte should have just become a free agent. He is past draft age so he could have just signed as a free agent with a team. Dumb ass agent.

[rankingtear]

Duarte should have just become a free agent. He is past draft age so he could have just signed as a free agent with a team. Dumb ass agent.

Not true.

[exstatic]

Duarte should have just become a free agent. He is past draft age so he could have just signed as a free agent with a team. Dumb ass agent.

Because of Covid-19, all Seniors were given one extra year of eligibility, and so they HAD to either declare for the draft, or return to school. Think of them as 4th year Juniors, if that helps.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Because of Covid-19, all Seniors were given one extra year of eligibility, and so they HAD to either declare for the draft, or return to school. Think of them as 4th year Juniors, if that helps.

Players over 22 don’t need to submit to the draft. Even with an extra year he is still 24. How is he required to be drafted? If he was playing in Europe he wouldn’t even be eligible for the draft if I understand the rules.

[rankingtear]

Players over 22 don’t need to submit to the draft. Even with an extra year he is still 24. How is he required to be drafted? If he was playing in Europe he wouldn’t even be eligible for the draft if I understand the rules.

International Pro + 22 = auto added to draft pool

[Chinook]

Players over 22 don’t need to submit to the draft. Even with an extra year he is still 24. How is he required to be drafted? If he was playing in Europe he wouldn’t even be eligible for the draft if I understand the rules.

That's never been the way it worked. If you're American or go to an university, you count as a domestic player, and you're only automatically eligible after your senior year. That's the reason why guys like White had to be drafted.

[CGD]

https://twitter.com/espnausnz/status/1414055845969661952?s=21

:lmao :lmao

Damn they murdered him. At least it wasn’t a reference to the passed up dunk.

[SAGirl]

You don’t know hard times brother. Hard times is when your GM picks up a $24 million dollar option only to waive that very player 4 months later. Hard times is watching your starting center not be able to post up Ja Morant, or any other point guard, 3 feet from the basket, shoot 18% from the foul line and the complain that he is underpaid. Hard times is watching your starting point guard, shooting guard, and small forward pass the ball away like they were passing around a Kardashian every time they had a wide open 3. Hard times is having to watch your hall of fame badass of a coach suck up and kiss ass to possibly the worst “star player” he has ever coached bc otherwise he will have to drive to Jack in the Box at 3:00 in the morning, order the Munchy meal and use it to entice Demar to come back home. And finally, hard times is watching Bryn Forbes playing in the fucking finals while our sorry ass team can’t even make the playoffs. And now we want to trade Derrick White??? THAT’S HARD TIMES BROTHER
oooffff! I had forgotten about Lamarcus team option. Thanks

[exstatic]

You don’t know hard times brother. Hard times is when your GM picks up a $24 million dollar option only to waive that very player 4 months later. Hard times is watching your starting center not be able to post up Ja Morant, or any other point guard, 3 feet from the basket, shoot 18% from the foul line and the complain that he is underpaid. Hard times is watching your starting point guard, shooting guard, and small forward pass the ball away like they were passing around a Kardashian every time they had a wide open 3. Hard times is having to watch your hall of fame badass of a coach suck up and kiss ass to possibly the worst “star player” he has ever coached bc otherwise he will have to drive to Jack in the Box at 3:00 in the morning, order the Munchy meal and use it to entice Demar to come back home. And finally, hard times is watching Bryn Forbes playing in the fucking finals while our sorry ass team can’t even make the playoffs. And now we want to trade Derrick White??? THAT’S HARD TIMES BROTHER

It was actually 16 months later. His contract for 20-21 was guaranteed in Oct of 2019, coming off an All Star season. There was no option.

[Dejounte]

Per the athletic this morning:

Across the league, many believe Hawks forward/center John Collins (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/hawks/john-collins/) increased his value as a maximum contract-caliber player during Atlanta’s run to the Eastern Conference finals. In 18 postseason games, Collins averaged 13.9 points, 8.7 rebounds and 35.7 percent 3-point shooting.
Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and Minnesota are among the teams expected to show interest in Collins, believing he could be attainable as a restricted free agent, sources said. Hawks owner Tony Ressler said after the season that he hoped the team reached a “fair agreement” with Collins. Will the sides find that threshold?

Let all the false hope begin :lmao :lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

Pop can’t coach a team with Durant, Lillard, and Tatum past Patty Mills :lol close this thread down, it doesn’t matter what scrub signs here as long as the senile dumbass is still here

[XDT76]

Per the athletic this morning:

Across the league, many believe Hawks forward/center John Collins (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/hawks/john-collins/) increased his value as a maximum contract-caliber player during Atlanta’s run to the Eastern Conference finals. In 18 postseason games, Collins averaged 13.9 points, 8.7 rebounds and 35.7 percent 3-point shooting.
Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and Minnesota are among the teams expected to show interest in Collins, believing he could be attainable as a restricted free agent, sources said. Hawks owner Tony Ressler said after the season that he hoped the team reached a “fair agreement” with Collins. Will the sides find that threshold?

Let all the false hope begin :lmao :lmao

13.9 and 8.7 is a max contract calibre player?

[EricB]

13.9 and 8.7 is a max contract calibre player?

whos 23 and improving day by day? Yes

[Dejounte]

whos 23 and improving day by day? Yes


would you max a 24 year old whos averaging 16, 7, 5 and improving day by day?

many people want to trade him.

his name is Dejounte Murray.

[buttsR4rebounding]

would you max a 24 year old whos averaging 16, 7, 5 and improving day by day?

many people want to trade him.

his name is Dejounte Murray.

Bam!

[bluebellmaniac]

would you max a 24 year old whos averaging 16, 7, 5 and improving day by day?

many people want to trade him.

his name is Dejounte Murray.

Wow, that was quite the BOOM!

[Chinook]

If only Murray and Collins were comparable players / if only the Spurs had a PF who was significantly better than Collins even if injured.

[mo7888]

If only Murray and Collins were comparable players / if only the Spurs had a PF who was significantly better than Collins even if injured.

So we're gonna bring DeAndre Hunter into this I see...

[Chinook]

So we're gonna bring DeAndre Hunter into this I see...

If he were a Spur, I'd certainly not feel as bullish on Collins. I'd have probably been more keen on Vuc last year too.

[rankingtear]

Per the athletic this morning:

Across the league, many believe Hawks forward/center John Collins (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/hawks/john-collins/) increased his value as a maximum contract-caliber player during Atlanta’s run to the Eastern Conference finals. In 18 postseason games, Collins averaged 13.9 points, 8.7 rebounds and 35.7 percent 3-point shooting.
Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and Minnesota are among the teams expected to show interest in Collins, believing he could be attainable as a restricted free agent, sources said. Hawks owner Tony Ressler said after the season that he hoped the team reached a “fair agreement” with Collins. Will the sides find that threshold?

Let all the false hope begin :lmao :lmao

I really don't get how his value increased.

Some reporters said Collins shut down Randle and Simmons. Randle shot the same percentage when guarded by Gallinari. Simmons shot 70% on Collins and he mostly hides on the dunker spot. Harris lit him up 50+ % on a lot of shots.

ATL needed him to create his own shot, mostly tragic brunson alert if he has to take more than 3 dribbles and his post ups takes up the whole shot clock because he can't back down anybody.

He is a great energy guy and spot up shooter but he can only defend one player type and there is no progress on that shot creation.

People are still mentioning the 20-10 thing. He is a 20-10 guy when he had Turner lite in Dedmon standing in the corner shooting 3. Which pretty much opens up a whole lot of problems defensively in transition.

[R. DeMurre]

I remember thinking it was a little curious when the story came out in January about the Spurs scouting Collins' Wake Forest teammate Dinos Mitaglou in Greece, and thinking that might be one way to get a clever or sneaky advantage in luring Collins, by saying his college buddy would have a place on the bench. Mitaglou had a good year with his Greek team, and then really played great as they won the Greek league championship, but this summer he signed a two year deal with Olimpia Milano.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2021/1/25/22248555/report-the-spurs-are-scouting-greek-forward-dinos-mitoglou

https://www.euroleague.net/news/i/bm3rhidiflntodpg/milan-adds-muscle-with-mitoglou

[rjv]

Per the athletic this morning:

Across the league, many believe Hawks forward/center John Collins (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/hawks/john-collins/) increased his value as a maximum contract-caliber player during Atlanta’s run to the Eastern Conference finals. In 18 postseason games, Collins averaged 13.9 points, 8.7 rebounds and 35.7 percent 3-point shooting.
Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and Minnesota are among the teams expected to show interest in Collins, believing he could be attainable as a restricted free agent, sources said. Hawks owner Tony Ressler said after the season that he hoped the team reached a “fair agreement” with Collins. Will the sides find that threshold?

Let all the false hope begin :lmao :lmao

this has the feel of a mark cuban 'must have this FA' moment.

[CGD]

this has the feel of a mark cuban 'must have this FA' moment.

If that is the case, looks like they can be serious contenders. By my count they can open up about $24M this summer.

[TD 21]

Way too many counting stats without context references, not understanding that all maxes aren't created equal and that with their combination of flexibility and not being a destination franchise, money should not be an obstacle if they want someone(s) badly enough.



Per the athletic this morning:

Across the league, many believe Hawks forward/center John Collins (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/hawks/john-collins/) increased his value as a maximum contract-caliber player during Atlanta’s run to the Eastern Conference finals. In 18 postseason games, Collins averaged 13.9 points, 8.7 rebounds and 35.7 percent 3-point shooting.
Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and Minnesota are among the teams expected to show interest in Collins, believing he could be attainable as a restricted free agent, sources said. Hawks owner Tony Ressler said after the season that he hoped the team reached a “fair agreement” with Collins. Will the sides find that threshold?

Let all the false hope begin :lmao :lmao

More than likely, but it's still encouraging to see one of the two foremost news breakers listing them. If they want him badly enough, there's no reason they wouldn't be able to get him given their superior financial flexibility. It's just a question of how far are they willing to go, not only in terms of maxing him but the structure of the contract to dissuade the Hawks or to potentially work out a sign and trade with them.

That type of aggressive, determined approach is not their style though, so even if they do really want him, I don't expect them to actually land him.

[lmbebo]

If that is the case, looks like they can be serious contenders. By my count they can open up about $24M this summer.


More than likely, Dallas would like to dump Porzingis to get Collins...

[objective]

Spurs will have a hard time scoring next year, a whole lot of usage between DeRozan and Gay. Collins would definitely help there, I think his offensive game would thrive with SA. He had a down scoring year with all the mouths Atlanta has to feed, but the Spurs won't have anyone who can take touches like Young, maybe not even on the level of Bogdanovic or Gallinari.

[Dejounte]

Spurs will have a hard time scoring next year, a whole lot of usage between DeRozan and Gay. Collins would definitely help there, I think his offensive game would thrive with SA. He had a down scoring year with all the mouths Atlanta has to feed, but the Spurs won't have anyone who can take touches like Young, maybe not even on the level of Bogdanovic or Gallinari.

Yes, they’ll have a tough time scoring next year that’s why you need shot creators, not catch and shoot guys like John Collins.

[TD 21]

Yes, they’ll have a tough time scoring next year that’s why you need shot creators, not catch and shoot guys like John Collins.

They need both but they also need a starting four.

The thing with the need for another shot creator is, there's no room unless Mills is not re-signed or Walker IV is traded.

[Dejounte]

They need both but they also need a starting four.

The thing with the need for another shot creator is, there's no room unless Mills is not re-signed or Walker IV is traded.

I will pack their suitcases myself.

[TD 21]

Actually, even if both Mills and Walker IV are retained, they could sign someone like Burks anyway and have Walker IV and Samanic on the fringe of the rotation (obviously, if Samanic didn't play, by default Johnson would have to eat the backup four minutes).

That would probably be the last straw for Walker IV though, leading to his requesting a trade.

[objective]

Yes, they’ll have a tough time scoring next year that’s why you need shot creators, not catch and shoot guys like John Collins.

I think he has some self creation upside. Amar'e was a big time scorer with Nash and a big time scorer with fat Felton. The shots changed, but he didn't turn into Trey Lyles.

[Dejounte]

Actually, even if both Mills and Walker IV are retained, they could sign someone like Burks anyway and have Walker IV and Samanic on the fringe of the rotation (obviously, if Samanic didn't play, by default Johnson would have to eat the backup four minutes).

That would probably be the last straw for Walker IV though, leading to his requesting a trade.

That’s assuming PATFO hasn’t hammered it in Walker’s head that he’s not valued much and brainwashed him into thinking he is worth very little contract-wise, a la Poeltl.

with the way Keldon is being used on the USA team, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is still the starting four next year even though maybe he shouldn’t be

[CGD]

More than likely, Dallas would like to dump Porzingis to get Collins...

Of course they’d love that, but isnt happening. They’ll have to commit like $85-90m just between Luca, KP, and Collins.

[TD 21]

That’s assuming PATFO hasn’t hammered it in Walker’s head that he’s not valued much and brainwashed him into thinking he is worth very little contract-wise, a la Poeltl.

with the way Keldon is being used on the USA team, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is still the starting four next year even though maybe he shouldn’t be

Walker IV attempts to put on a brave face, but he hasn't seemed content with his fluctuating playing time/role for a while. I think he believes he's the most talented of the youth and thought that by now he'd be either a burgeoning star or at least a featured offensive player.

I wouldn't read too much into Johnson's role in these exhibitions. Like the Spurs last season, it's mostly a product of roster construction. I'd be surprised if they didn't bring in a starting four of some sort. That doesn't mean he can't and won't still play some four (especially if the starting four is a 4.5 like Collins) though.

[Chinook]

The Spurs don't really need play-makers. White's an excellent play-maker, and assuming Murray's back( :pctoss but you know), the one thing they don't need is a four who wants to do a bunch of dribble-drive shit. I remain convinced that the Bubble set the Spurs' development back more than it helped. They need to move away from that offense and more toward one that has defined roles and creates shots for off-ball players through movement and leverage rather than though individual creation against set defenses. That doesn't mean they should have a lead guard and four one-dimensional scorers, but it does mean they need a diversity in how they get buckets so they can attack defenses in different ways.

I say this reminder about once a year, but the first option in the Motion Weak offense (otherwise known as the main set during the BG era) is a post-up for the PF. It then flowed into PnRs, cuts for open threes and elbow jumpers. It was basically like, "Okay, so first we get Diaw into a position to score, and if that doesn't work then we give Parker one, then Green, then Tim" and so on. Right now it's like, "Okay so DeMar is has the ball, but they packed the paint harder than he's pounding the air out of the ball. Okay so he passes to Johnson who has a crack of daylight for a thr-- no wait, he's driving. He passes it to Murray, and he's dribbling around the three-point like trying to cross over his man for like 10 seconds. He's got nothing so he passes it to Derrick, who's rising up for a three as the shot-clock expires. At least Jakob is there for a rebound." Obviously, they score some times, and those individual creations can work. But basically everyone is going against their strengths way too much.

It's hard to even be excited about Johnson's potential development, because it's looking like more of that dribble-drive shit that's going to make the offense even harder to watch. In a vacuum, I'm happy he's looking good in a one-on-one context. But if he's just going to be like that with Murray and White already on the floor, then the offense is going continue to be "inconsistent" at best.

[TD 21]

The Spurs don't really need play-makers. White's an excellent play-maker, and assuming Murray's back( :pctoss but you know), the one thing they don't need is a four who wants to do a bunch of dribble-drive shit. I remain convinced that the Bubble set the Spurs' development back more than it helped. They need to move away from that offense and more toward one that has defined roles and creates shots for off-ball players through movement and leverage rather than though individual creation against set defenses. That doesn't mean they should have a lead guard and four one-dimensional scorers, but it does mean they need a diversity in how they get buckets so they can attack defenses in different ways.

I say this reminder about once a year, but the first option in the Motion Weak offense (otherwise known as the main set during the BG era) is a post-up for the PF. It then flowed into PnRs, cuts for open threes and elbow jumpers. It was basically like, "Okay, so first we get Diaw into a position to score, and if that doesn't work then we give Parker one, then Green, then Tim" and so on. Right now it's like, "Okay so DeMar is has the ball, but they packed the paint harder than he's pounding the air out of the ball. Okay so he passes to Johnson who has a crack of daylight for a thr-- no wait, he's driving. He passes it to Murray, and he's dribbling around the three-point like trying to cross over his man for like 10 seconds. He's got nothing so he passes it to Derrick, who's rising up for a three as the shot-clock expires. At least Jakob is there for a rebound." Obviously, they score some times, and those individual creations can work. But basically everyone is going against their strengths way too much.

It's hard to even be excited about Johnson's potential development, because it's looking like more of that dribble-drive shit that's going to make the offense even harder to watch. In a vacuum, I'm happy he's looking good in a one-on-one context. But if he's just going to be like that with Murray and White already on the floor, then the offense is going continue to be "inconsistent" at best.

There's no credible argument for the Spurs not needing play-makers. With the current construct, they need an ancillary one and if they ever get serious about trying to build a contender again, they'll need better primary ones than they currently have.

White is a solid play maker, but a secondary one. His career assist rate is 19.4%. Primary options are usually around 30% or better.

A four with ball skills is absolutely a need with a starting lineup deficient in them all around (only White could be described as having average or better ones for his position and that's only if you consider him a "SG", as opposed to how he'll actually function which is as minimally the co-primary play maker).

The BG era is irrelevant. They don't have the talent or basketball IQ to pull it off and system offenses are a thing of the past.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The Spurs don't really need play-makers. White's an excellent play-maker, and assuming Murray's back( :pctoss but you know), the one thing they don't need is a four who wants to do a bunch of dribble-drive shit. I remain convinced that the Bubble set the Spurs' development back more than it helped. They need to move away from that offense and more toward one that has defined roles and creates shots for off-ball players through movement and leverage rather than though individual creation against set defenses. That doesn't mean they should have a lead guard and four one-dimensional scorers, but it does mean they need a diversity in how they get buckets so they can attack defenses in different ways.

I say this reminder about once a year, but the first option in the Motion Weak offense (otherwise known as the main set during the BG era) is a post-up for the PF. It then flowed into PnRs, cuts for open threes and elbow jumpers. It was basically like, "Okay, so first we get Diaw into a position to score, and if that doesn't work then we give Parker one, then Green, then Tim" and so on. Right now it's like, "Okay so DeMar is has the ball, but they packed the paint harder than he's pounding the air out of the ball. Okay so he passes to Johnson who has a crack of daylight for a thr-- no wait, he's driving. He passes it to Murray, and he's dribbling around the three-point like trying to cross over his man for like 10 seconds. He's got nothing so he passes it to Derrick, who's rising up for a three as the shot-clock expires. At least Jakob is there for a rebound." Obviously, they score some times, and those individual creations can work. But basically everyone is going against their strengths way too much.

It's hard to even be excited about Johnson's potential development, because it's looking like more of that dribble-drive shit that's going to make the offense even harder to watch. In a vacuum, I'm happy he's looking good in a one-on-one context. But if he's just going to be like that with Murray and White already on the floor, then the offense is going continue to be "inconsistent" at best.

yep! If we can have a athletic big who can shoot 3s and cut and dunk, Murray and White will score and set up others easily.

[poopbox]

That’s assuming PATFO hasn’t hammered it in Walker’s head that he’s not valued much and brainwashed him into thinking he is worth very little contract-wise, a la Poeltl.

with the way Keldon is being used on the USA team, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is still the starting four next year even though maybe he shouldn’t be

Keldon should be a 3. Having him play the 4 is an outlandish waste. If he is playing the 4 that insinuates we did not get ANY bigs on this team AND Luka is only viewed as somebody to eat bench minutes while Keldon rest.

[Dejounte]

Keldon should be a 3. Having him play the 4 is an outlandish waste. If he is playing the 4 that insinuates we did not get ANY bigs on this team AND Luka is only viewed as somebody to eat bench minutes while Keldon rest.

IMO, the Spurs lost more games due to struggles buying a bucket than to Keldon not being tall enough

i dont remember many games where opposing scorers were having their way with Keldon. If anything, it was guards and wings who were having their way against us. And since it is a scorer’s league, I’m not even debating for us to find a defensive ace to stop those scorers…I’m debating for us to find a player who can match them point for point

[objective]

White's playmaking stats are depressed because of all the selfish guys he's been playing with. How many times was he uninvolved because Gay got a rebound and decided to be Point Rudy or Mills wanted to get his customary end of quarter turnover, DeRozan wanting the ball, etc

Spurs need more point creation and that's why I want Collins and Sengun, but White does have untapped potential.

[mo7888]

The Spurs don't really need play-makers. White's an excellent play-maker, and assuming Murray's back( :pctoss but you know), the one thing they don't need is a four who wants to do a bunch of dribble-drive shit. I remain convinced that the Bubble set the Spurs' development back more than it helped. They need to move away from that offense and more toward one that has defined roles and creates shots for off-ball players through movement and leverage rather than though individual creation against set defenses. That doesn't mean they should have a lead guard and four one-dimensional scorers, but it does mean they need a diversity in how they get buckets so they can attack defenses in different ways.

I say this reminder about once a year, but the first option in the Motion Weak offense (otherwise known as the main set during the BG era) is a post-up for the PF. It then flowed into PnRs, cuts for open threes and elbow jumpers. It was basically like, "Okay, so first we get Diaw into a position to score, and if that doesn't work then we give Parker one, then Green, then Tim" and so on. Right now it's like, "Okay so DeMar is has the ball, but they packed the paint harder than he's pounding the air out of the ball. Okay so he passes to Johnson who has a crack of daylight for a thr-- no wait, he's driving. He passes it to Murray, and he's dribbling around the three-point like trying to cross over his man for like 10 seconds. He's got nothing so he passes it to Derrick, who's rising up for a three as the shot-clock expires. At least Jakob is there for a rebound." Obviously, they score some times, and those individual creations can work. But basically everyone is going against their strengths way too much.

It's hard to even be excited about Johnson's potential development, because it's looking like more of that dribble-drive shit that's going to make the offense even harder to watch. In a vacuum, I'm happy he's looking good in a one-on-one context. But if he's just going to be like that with Murray and White already on the floor, then the offense is going continue to be "inconsistent" at best.

That sums it up pretty well...

[Dejounte]

Playmaking =\ shot creating

I think two conversations are happening here but I’d like to emphasize that I think the team needs (among other needs) is a shot creator first and foremost, not a point guard that has total control of the offense. In other words, a Devin Book and not a Chris Paul. I think the latter archetype is overrated when it comes to success. People will say Chris Paul is having success now, to which I will say… finally? It’s fun to root for a passing point guard like Nash, but there’s a reason why teams with those types as the centerpiece don’t go far… the offense becomes too predictable. Give me a shot creator and diversify the offense with secondary playmakers around him.

[Chinook]

There's no credible argument for the Spurs not needing play-makers. With the current construct, they need an ancillary one and if they ever get serious about trying to build a contender again, they'll need better primary ones than they currently have.

White is a solid play maker, but a secondary one. His career assist rate is 19.4%. Primary options are usually around 30% or better.

I think this is a poor way to determining skills at making plays. The Spurs haven't used a primary play-maker in years. They did have ball-dominant players in DeRozan and Murray, but that's not the same thing as saying those where the top play-makers. That and White being the only one of the trio whose three was enough to keep him buoyant meant he was a finisher off passes way more than he might be in a bigger role. Derrick was assisted on his shots at the highest rate of his career. In terms of two-pointers his assisted rate was double that of DMDR and DJM. That suggests that him passing to them probably resulted in them not taking shots or driving into what they considered better positions and ruining the assist opportunities. White being on the court made it easier for DeRozan and Murray to get assists, but not the other way around.

Also, the Spurs aren't contenders and can afford to let guys like Johnson and Vassell try to grow as play-makers in lesser roles. That's something that harder to do with Murray and DeRozan for reasons I mentioned above. Certainly for Johnson, it seems like the Spurs want him to get better in that regard. Collins absorbing a bunch of usage with his extremely high AFG% gives White and the others another obvious target for passes should make his job and those of the young wings easier.


A four with ball skills is absolutely a need with a starting lineup deficient in them all around (only White could be described as having average or better ones for his position and that's only if you consider him a "SG", as opposed to how he'll actually function which is as minimally the co-primary play maker).

Definitely not. You don't have to sell me on the idea that the smalls in the lineup need to be better. But you don't fix that by trying to add another driver to the lineup. You swap out some of the not-good-enough perimeter players, which I've been proposing for a while now.


The BG era is irrelevant. They don't have the talent or basketball IQ to pull it off and system offenses are a thing of the past.

Or, or the Spurs could actually implement a system. Like I get in today's NBA there's a better chance at success if you have stars who can dominate and guys who can score chaotically. But if you don't have stars who can dominate, then having a system offense can make you better than the sum of your parts. Ask Miami about system offenses. I don't presume the Spurs are basketball savants, but they aren't dunces. At this point, there should be little credible opposition to running an offense, given the lack of clout on the roster. Collins has made it clear he'd welcome more offensive structure, so he wouldn't argue. It's just the smarter move given where the team is, and they can revisit it as their situation changes.

[Uriel]

What should we expect from the Lakers?

There is no clear path for the Lakers to acquire a third star to team up with LeBron James (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james) and Anthony Davis (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6583/anthony-davis), assuming one is even available this summer.

The Lakers are over the salary cap, and their roster options are limited outside of bringing back their own free agents: Schroder, Alex Caruso (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2991350/alex-caruso) and Talen Horton-Tucker (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4396991/talen-horton-tucker). Signing all three pushes them into the luxury tax, leaving Los Angeles with the $5.9 million tax midlevel and veterans minimum exceptions to fill out the rest of the roster. If the Lakers let Schroder walk but bring back Caruso and Horton-Tucker, they are still limited to the $5.9 million tax midlevel exception even if Montrezl Harrell (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2991055/montrezl-harrell) declines his $9.7 million player option.

A sign-and-trade is an option, but it would trigger the $143 million hard cap, meaning the Lakers would need to shed the contracts of Harrell and either Kyle Kuzma (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3134907/kyle-kuzma) or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2581018/kentavious-caldwell-pope). Is there a team out there that would take on the $39 million owed to Kuzma or the $17 million owed to Caldwell-Pope?

For example, would Brooklyn consider Kuzma and the No. 22 pick in this month's draft to help facilitate a Dinwiddie sign-and-trade? The $13 million Kuzma contract would add to the Nets' substantial luxury tax bill. DeRozan makes sense for the Lakers, but would the Spurs want back a package of Caldwell-Pope, Kuzma and the 22nd pick?

Acquiring a player in a sign-and-trade could also cost the Lakers Caruso or Horton-Tucker, leaving the Lakers with the veterans minimum to fill out their bench.
https://espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/31784688/the-10-questions-define-summer-2021-nba

[Dejounte]

Caldwell Pope wouldnt be half bad… dude hits BIG shots from the times I’ve seen him

[Leetonidas]

Like I said, I'd prefer to get something rather than nothing for derozan, especially a pick. I'm sure a contender would like to add KCP at the deadline. And as much as I don't like Kuzma, he fits our cores age and he plays a position of need and is only at 13M a season. It's not a terrible deal

[Chinook]

Yeah, I've been on the Kuzma bandwagon. If he pout tell him you'll move him if he plays well. He's definitely a player who can look good, and on his contract he'll always intrigue some teams ala GS and Oubre. Otherwise he takes touches that need to be taken without DeRozan. I've made it clear there are PFs I'd prefer, but if he's the minimum available at the end of the day, I think the summer will be fine for the team.

Of course a circle of my personal hell would probably be seeing Murray and Kuz fight over who's the alpha dog on a 30-win team. Not uber likely, but that is a possible downside.

[PhantomDashCam]

https://tv5.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/31784688/the-10-questions-define-summer-2021-nba

Spurs would have to do that if it was available wouldn’t they?

I just find it doubtful seeing as how we couldn’t get anything for DDR at the trade line and suddenly we are getting 2 rotation pieces and a first round pick?

[Mugen]

I'd rather the Spurs sign Barkevious Mingo to play at the 4 than Kyle fucking Kuzma tbh.

[objective]

I'd rather see a max offer sheet to Collins and risk the matching than take Kuzma and nonsense and 22.

Don't even know how they could get 22 without getting it blown up by the league but that's another story.

[poopbox]

IMO, the Spurs lost more games due to struggles buying a bucket than to Keldon not being tall enough

i dont remember many games where opposing scorers were having their way with Keldon. If anything, it was guards and wings who were having their way against us. And since it is a scorer’s league, I’m not even debating for us to find a defensive ace to stop those scorers…I’m debating for us to find a player who can match them point for point

This team needs a "big" who can spread the floor and be a volume 3 point shooter. If Keldon is playing the 4 that means we won't have that type of big, which means this team can only improve so much.

Keldon "plays" much more like a 3 than a 4 as well.

[poopbox]

Spurs would have to do that if it was available wouldn’t they?

I just find it doubtful seeing as how we couldn’t get anything for DDR at the trade line and suddenly we are getting 2 rotation pieces and a first round pick?

A lot has changed in the nba between the trade deadline and now.

I do not think we could have gotten Porzingis for Derozan at the trade deadline. But if the mavs strike out on trading him in free agency, and I think they will, and if derozan doesn't get some monster offer, and i think he won't, then if the spurs want, a sign and trade for derozan and porzingis wouldn't be that hard, since the mavs might not do much better than derozan, and the spurs might strike out on the bigs they try to sign and kristaps becomes the best option they have at that position.

[Uriel]

Spurs would have to do that if it was available wouldn’t they?

I just find it doubtful seeing as how we couldn’t get anything for DDR at the trade line and suddenly we are getting 2 rotation pieces and a first round pick?
That’s because the Spurs have leverage over the Lakers. The Lakers don’t have the cap space to sign DDR outright, so they need to S&T for him. That gives the Spurs the leverage to ask more from the Lakers.

[rankingtear]

The Spurs don't really need play-makers. White's an excellent play-maker, and assuming Murray's back( :pctoss but you know), the one thing they don't need is a four who wants to do a bunch of dribble-drive shit. I remain convinced that the Bubble set the Spurs' development back more than it helped. They need to move away from that offense and more toward one that has defined roles and creates shots for off-ball players through movement and leverage rather than though individual creation against set defenses. That doesn't mean they should have a lead guard and four one-dimensional scorers, but it does mean they need a diversity in how they get buckets so they can attack defenses in different ways.

I say this reminder about once a year, but the first option in the Motion Weak offense (otherwise known as the main set during the BG era) is a post-up for the PF. It then flowed into PnRs, cuts for open threes and elbow jumpers. It was basically like, "Okay, so first we get Diaw into a position to score, and if that doesn't work then we give Parker one, then Green, then Tim" and so on. Right now it's like, "Okay so DeMar is has the ball, but they packed the paint harder than he's pounding the air out of the ball. Okay so he passes to Johnson who has a crack of daylight for a thr-- no wait, he's driving. He passes it to Murray, and he's dribbling around the three-point like trying to cross over his man for like 10 seconds. He's got nothing so he passes it to Derrick, who's rising up for a three as the shot-clock expires. At least Jakob is there for a rebound." Obviously, they score some times, and those individual creations can work. But basically everyone is going against their strengths way too much.

It's hard to even be excited about Johnson's potential development, because it's looking like more of that dribble-drive shit that's going to make the offense even harder to watch. In a vacuum, I'm happy he's looking good in a one-on-one context. But if he's just going to be like that with Murray and White already on the floor, then the offense is going continue to be "inconsistent" at best.

That lineup put up a 117.9 offensive rating. PHX starting lineup is a 115.9 and MIL starting lineup is at 117.7.

More ballhandlers == higher offensive rating.

[Chinook]

That lineup put up a 117.9 offensive rating. PHX starting lineup is a 115.9 and MIL starting lineup is at 117.7.

More ballhandlers == higher offensive rating.

So what you're telling me is that offensive rating doesn't actually correlate with a good team?

EDIT: Also, the Spurs SL I'm assuming you're referring to (Murray, White, DeRozan, Johnson, Poeltl) wasn't close to the best net-rating lineups the Spurs ran. All or the ones above that included two or even one ball-handler. All of those include guys like DeRozan, Gay and Mills and often don't have Poeltl, so it doesn't look like the net-rating is driven by elite defense. If all that's true, then it seems like fewer ball-handlers serves the team better than more.

[Truckules]

So what you're telling me is that offensive rating doesn't actually correlate with a good team?

EDIT: Also, the Spurs SL I'm assuming you're referring to (Murray, White, DeRozan, Johnson, Poeltl) wasn't close to the best net-rating lineups the Spurs ran. All or the ones above that included two or even one ball-handler. All of those include guys like DeRozan, Gay and Mills and often don't have Poeltl, so it doesn't look like the net-rating is driven by elite defense. If all that's true, then it seems like fewer ball-handlers serves the team better than more.

You were talking about the offense so he gave you the offensive rating and now you want to talk net rating? Just admit that you're wrong and move on. The starting lineup's offense was good if not great when DW4 was playing, and that's a fact.

Also, the higher net rating lineups were because of the defense, not offense. You can see at https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&TeamID=1610612759&CF=MIN*G*25 that the top net ratings were because the defensive ratings were so low.

[Chinook]

You were talking about the offense so he gave you the offensive rating and now you want to talk net rating? Just admit that you're wrong and move on. The starting lineup's offense was good if not great when DW4 was playing, and that's a fact.

Also, the higher net rating lineups were because of the defense, not offense. You can see at https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&TeamID=1610612759&CF=MIN*G*25 that the top net ratings were because the defensive ratings were so low.

I wasn't talking about net-rating about offense, so when he posted about offensive rating, it did more to show how irrelevant that stat is to the point. If that lineup as it functioned last year were truly good enough offensively, people wouldn't be bitching about shooters or how DeRozan slows down the offense or whatever. Folks want to simlutaneously use offensive stats to claim Murray, Murray/White and the "hydra offense" but then want to pretend like none of that applies to DeRozan. It's weird, Murray and White are supposed to be some of the best defensive guards in the league, and DeRozan and Mills are supposed to be bad, but we're really going to say the reason why lineups with the latter duo can be part of so many good defensive lineups and Poeltl, who put up some of the best defensive lineups in the league last season, weren't as good as the ones including Eubanks?

My point was countering the idea that more ball-handlers makes the offense better. That's not true. The Spurs had great offensive lineups with one or two ball-handlers and more shooters. Why that reality is reflected more as a product of defensive rating, I don't know. But I know I wouldn't want to be caught having to support the idea that Mills and Gay were the defensive core of the team in order to explain how a championship-level offensive lineup filled with plus defenders led the team to a mediocre-to-bad record despite having a bench that dominated statistically.

[CGD]

Spurs would have to do that if it was available wouldn’t they?

I just find it doubtful seeing as how we couldn’t get anything for DDR at the trade line and suddenly we are getting 2 rotation pieces and a first round pick?

I think so, though, depending on who Lakers take at 22 i might prefer a future pick instead.

Does seem odd to get anything for DDR now after some failed efforts, but I dont think many top heavy contending teams like the Lakers or Philly have the space to sign a 3rd "star" out right. So there is that.

[SpursDynasty85]

Spurs would have to do that if it was available wouldn’t they?

I just find it doubtful seeing as how we couldn’t get anything for DDR at the trade line and suddenly we are getting 2 rotation pieces and a first round pick?

This is true. Kuzma and Harrell are not on bad contract and should easily be movable to make room to sign DDR out right. Plus a FIRST? Why would they give away their assets to sign Derozan. Players like Love and Wiggins with bad contracts are another story however.

[JeffDuncan]

...
My point was countering the idea that more ball-handlers makes the offense better. That's not true. ...


It’s certainly true that in the NBA they don’t give points for dribbling, but so what?



...
The Spurs had great offensive lineups with one or two ball-handlers and more shooters. Why that reality is reflected more as a product of defensive rating, I don't know. ...



Look at the number of games and the minutes played, for those various lineups in the link posted earlier. The best DRTG was a lineup that appeared in only 12 games for a total of only 37 minutes. Three minutes in 1/6 of the games. I don’t know when that lineup was actually used, but statistically that’s “garbage time” — not enough data to draw a conclusion.

The Spurs had only 4 lineups that played more than 100 minutes together. And none of the lineups appeared in more than 1/3 of the games, except there was one that appeared in 25 games.

The RS was 72 games of 48 minutes of course, not counting overtimes. 3456 minutes. The Spurs lineup with the most time was 333 minutes. Less than 1/10 of the season.

Basically, those lineup stats are pretty much all trash. Not enough data in relation to the length of the season. Only the 2 or 3 lineups with the highest minutes might count for something.

It was a problem that White missed half the season. The White - Murray - DDR - Keldon - Poeltl lineup with a Net of +6, if it could have gone the full season, should have produced a winning record and maybe made some noise in the playoffs. Only speculation, we’ll never know.

[R. DeMurre]

You were talking about the offense so he gave you the offensive rating and now you want to talk net rating? Just admit that you're wrong and move on. The starting lineup's offense was good if not great when DW4 was playing, and that's a fact.

Also, the higher net rating lineups were because of the defense, not offense. You can see at https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&TeamID=1610612759&CF=MIN*G*25 that the top net ratings were because the defensive ratings were so low.

Incredible that the top four line ups of a sub .500 team don't contain their highest paid player, who is also the team leader in minutes. You'd be hard pressed to find a similar scenario with any other "star" or team in the league.

[exstatic]

OK, for the umpteenth time, we cannot do that Lakers trade. The league would void any trade where a draft pick is made, the league shuts down to do it’s salary calculations for next year, and then a player is signed and traded for the rights to that draft pick. You cannot stretch a trade out over two different league fiscal years.

[exstatic]

Incredible that the top four line ups of a sub .500 team don't contain their highest paid player, who is also the team leader in minutes. You'd be hard pressed to find a similar scenario with any other "star" or team in the league.

This is why I want to make minimal changes to our existing structure, just add the draft picks and use the cap space. One of the last games before White sprained his ankle, Pop rested DeRozan and DJ, and we went into Phoenix, and kicked their fucking asses. Like the game was never in doubt after the first Q. Let’s see what the team, minus DeRozan and maybe other vets, plus draft picks and player improvements can do.

[Chinook]

Tim was in only one of the top five lineups in 13/14 despite being the team's best player.

[The Truth #6]

This is why I want to make minimal changes to our existing structure, just add the draft picks and use the cap space. One of the last games before White sprained his ankle, Pop rested DeRozan and DJ, and we went into Phoenix, and kicked their fucking asses. Like the game was never in doubt after the first Q. Let’s see what the team, minus DeRozan and maybe other vets, plus draft picks and player improvements can do.

That is the reasonable thing to do. If we have a coaching change as well, that's another factor already. For me, trading DJM seems unlikely, but I can understand the thought behind it.

[SpursDynasty85]

Tim was in only one of the top five lineups in 13/14 despite being the team's best player.


I still reckon there was no best player on that team. It was a super starless team with as much equal contribution from its top 9 players you could have.

[K...]

A future lakers pick is worth a lot considering the aging lebron an injury prone davis. Sending derozan for a protected first seems fine. An unprotected pick would be straight robbery

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

A future lakers pick is worth a lot considering the aging lebron an injury prone davis. Sending derozan for a protected first seems fine. An unprotected pick would be straight robbery

Unlikely because the earliest first round pick Lakers can trade is 2027. The DDR to Lakers deal is super unlikely for a million reasons.

[duncan2k5]

I still reckon there was no best player on that team. It was a super starless team with as much equal contribution from its top 9 players you could have.
Bullshit

[lmbebo]

if a LAL deal gets done, it might be the lakers choosing a player for the spurs. A future 1st round pick without protections would be amazing.

[bluebellmaniac]

This is true. Kuzma and Harrell are not on bad contract and should easily be movable to make room to sign DDR out right. Plus a FIRST? Why would they give away their assets to sign Derozan. Players like Love and Wiggins with bad contracts are another story however.

Next seasons Salary Cap is $112M. DMDR is set to make $30M+ next season. So Lakers would have to pare down to Less Than $74M to sign him outright. This includes the cap holds for the rest of the roster after everyone except Bron and Davis are renounced or traded away. Bron and Davis though will make $75M. Thus Lakers need a trade partner to facilitate his signing.

[rankingtear]

I wasn't talking about net-rating about offense, so when he posted about offensive rating, it did more to show how irrelevant that stat is to the point. If that lineup as it functioned last year were truly good enough offensively, people wouldn't be bitching about shooters or how DeRozan slows down the offense or whatever. Folks want to simlutaneously use offensive stats to claim Murray, Murray/White and the "hydra offense" but then want to pretend like none of that applies to DeRozan. It's weird, Murray and White are supposed to be some of the best defensive guards in the league, and DeRozan and Mills are supposed to be bad, but we're really going to say the reason why lineups with the latter duo can be part of so many good defensive lineups and Poeltl, who put up some of the best defensive lineups in the league last season, weren't as good as the ones including Eubanks?

My point was countering the idea that more ball-handlers makes the offense better. That's not true. The Spurs had great offensive lineups with one or two ball-handlers and more shooters. Why that reality is reflected more as a product of defensive rating, I don't know. But I know I wouldn't want to be caught having to support the idea that Mills and Gay were the defensive core of the team in order to explain how a championship-level offensive lineup filled with plus defenders led the team to a mediocre-to-bad record despite having a bench that dominated statistically.

It is not pretty because of the lack of player and ball movement and threes. The tradeoff is more offensive rebounds, ball security and free throws. It is a good offense, same ORTG to the 2019 one with 2 off ball players , an offensive anchor and no Murray.

[SpursDynasty85]

Bullshit

Lol nice to hear from you in a while. Can you explain further?

[SpursDynasty85]

Next seasons Salary Cap is $112M. DMDR is set to make $30M+ next season. So Lakers would have to pare down to Less Than $74M to sign him outright. This includes the cap holds for the rest of the roster after everyone except Bron and Davis are renounced or traded away. Bron and Davis though will make $75M. Thus Lakers need a trade partner to facilitate his signing.


I understand that but why would they just give there assets away when you can trade them and other assets away for future draft picks? Secondly Derozan will probably not make $30M+ unless it was on like a 1-2 year deal. You could trade your first round pick this year for someone's first round pick next year. You could trade Kuzma and Harrell for another future first rounder because their contracts are pretty good. Likely Lakers will want something in return for them even if they have to give up more in some way or fashion other than dumping them and replacing them with Derozan. It would be an idiotic trade on Lakers part.

[EricB]

would you max a 24 year old whos averaging 16, 7, 5 and improving day by day?

many people want to trade him.

his name is Dejounte Murray.

not me. However if he was part of a deal to improve the team I wouldn’t hesitate. I don’t want to deal anyone to just make a deal, but I’m not for giving anyone away either.

[Chinook]

It is not pretty because of the lack of player and ball movement and threes. The tradeoff is more offensive rebounds, ball security and free throws. It is a good offense, same ORTG to the 2019 one with 2 off ball players , an offensive anchor and no Murray.

No idea which lineups you're comparing to which, as the only constants in 2019 were Aldridge, DeRozan and Forbes. If we're trying to say the Spurs this year were able to reach the heights of the Cun-units, then I guess. Is the quintessential lineup the one with a healthy White or the one when he was still hurt? We are talking about games with Bertans as the starter or Gay? The 2021 unit has the benefit of being isolated to only when White and the others were healthy. Without him, the Murray, DeRozan, Johnson and Poeltl unit wasn't nearly as potent. Just as with a lot of systems, talent can make up for a lot.

A lot of things happened in the second half of the season. Injuries and illnesses obviously slowed the team down. But a big thing that happened was SA's offense being scouted and solved for, because it turns out that unless you're facing a team of superstars, taking turns breaking down defenses is pretty easy to stop. It's one of the reasons why the bubble was such a set-back for the team. They caught a lot of clubs off guard with how they played, but teams don't do that without great talents for a reason.

[bluebellmaniac]

I understand that but why would they just give there assets away when you can trade them and other assets away for future draft picks? Secondly Derozan will probably not make $30M+ unless it was on like a 1-2 year deal. You could trade your first round pick this year for someone's first round pick next year. You could trade Kuzma and Harrell for another future first rounder because their contracts are pretty good. Likely Lakers will want something in return for them even if they have to give up more in some way or fashion other than dumping them and replacing them with Derozan. It would be an idiotic trade on Lakers part.

Because you gut the team doing it your way and Bron's window closes without another shot at a championship.

It would set them up for a better team down the road but that is not the Lakers way.

[Dejounte]

“Hydra offense” would look aesthetically pleasing if the players who ran it were more creative/ gifted in scoring. At this moment, they are not. It does allow them to develop their offense more than any type of offense would, and that’s as good as it gets when you have young players.

[Chinook]

“Hydra offense” would look aesthetically pleasing if the players who ran it were more creative/ gifted in scoring. At this moment, they are not. It does allow them to develop their offense more than any type of offense would, and that’s as good as it gets when you have young players.

You can develop off-ball offense as well. It's not like those guys have mastered cuts, screens and roll and are now trying to evolve. If you don't have an offense that creates those off-ball opportunities, then that part of your game get stunted, and it makes it harder for the next guy to come in and learn to play off-ball offense, and the cycle continues

[Dejounte]

You can develop off-ball offense as well. It's not like those guys have mastered cuts, screens and roll and are now trying to evolve. If you don't have an offense that creates those off-ball opportunities, then that part of your game get stunted, and it makes it harder for the next guy to come in and learn to play off-ball offense, and the cycle continues

Eh, I’ll disagree here. At no point during the season were our guys having issues getting open. There were plenty of open guys on catch and shoot 3s. It’s a matter of making them.

[TD 21]

I think this is a poor way to determining skills at making plays. The Spurs haven't used a primary play-maker in years. They did have ball-dominant players in DeRozan and Murray, but that's not the same thing as saying those where the top play-makers. That and White being the only one of the trio whose three was enough to keep him buoyant meant he was a finisher off passes way more than he might be in a bigger role. Derrick was assisted on his shots at the highest rate of his career. In terms of two-pointers his assisted rate was double that of DMDR and DJM. That suggests that him passing to them probably resulted in them not taking shots or driving into what they considered better positions and ruining the assist opportunities. White being on the court made it easier for DeRozan and Murray to get assists, but not the other way around.

Also, the Spurs aren't contenders and can afford to let guys like Johnson and Vassell try to grow as play-makers in lesser roles. That's something that harder to do with Murray and DeRozan for reasons I mentioned above. Certainly for Johnson, it seems like the Spurs want him to get better in that regard. Collins absorbing a bunch of usage with his extremely high AFG% gives White and the others another obvious target for passes should make his job and those of the young wings easier.



Definitely not. You don't have to sell me on the idea that the smalls in the lineup need to be better. But you don't fix that by trying to add another driver to the lineup. You swap out some of the not-good-enough perimeter players, which I've been proposing for a while now.



Or, or the Spurs could actually implement a system. Like I get in today's NBA there's a better chance at success if you have stars who can dominate and guys who can score chaotically. But if you don't have stars who can dominate, then having a system offense can make you better than the sum of your parts. Ask Miami about system offenses. I don't presume the Spurs are basketball savants, but they aren't dunces. At this point, there should be little credible opposition to running an offense, given the lack of clout on the roster. Collins has made it clear he'd welcome more offensive structure, so he wouldn't argue. It's just the smarter move given where the team is, and they can revisit it as their situation changes.

It's not the only way, but it gives you a glimpse into one's ability. I'm not saying White isn't probably (Jones?) the best play maker under contract, I'm saying he's not a primary one.

Yeah, because they haven't had one.

Sure, if they want to tank, but everything they've shown us in the past 3 seasons indicates otherwise.

Not another "driver" per se, just someone who can drive a closeout and make plays against a rotating defense. They need as much of that as they can muster.

The youth doesn't have the basketball IQ for it and even if they did, this is an organization that needs to modernize their approach in so many ways, not continue to or revert to doing things that clearly turn off the majority of American millennials.

What "system" would that be? Butler/Dragic p-n-r, Adebayo d-ho's, etc. doesn't constitute that; that's typical NBA stuff, predicated on their best personnel's strengths.

[tbdog]

The DDR to Lakers for Kuzma and KCP is intriguing, especially if Spurs can manage to get Collins on a max and bring back Mills and Dieng. I don't foresee KCP as a long term piece for the Spurs as he'll naturally eat into Vassell and Walkers minutes. But that's a pretty deep team.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The DDR to Lakers for Kuzma and KCP is intriguing, especially if Spurs can manage to get Collins on a max and bring back Mills and Dieng. I don't foresee KCP as a long term piece for the Spurs as he'll naturally eat into Vassell and Walkers minutes. But that's a pretty deep team.

Not completely opposed to a trade with LA. DDR is a good fit with that group.

[mo7888]

There's a good bit of chatter today on Twitter about our interest in Simmons again. I'm still not sure I buy that but, some in the Spurs Twitter universe keep insisting that we'd have to give up a ton of future assets for him. I'm not so sure that's what Philly would want unless ots a multi team deal sending our assets elsewhere for other players. I think they'd prefer a S&T or a straight up deal for DJ + White. Thoughts?

[PrimeMinister]

There's a good bit of chatter today on Twitter about our interest in Simmons again. I'm still not sure I buy that but, some in the Spurs Twitter universe keep insisting that we'd have to give up a ton of future assets for him. I'm not so sure that's what Philly would want unless ots a multi team deal sending our assets elsewhere for other players. I think they'd prefer a S&T or a straight up deal for DJ + White. Thoughts?

his contract is severely limiting from a team building perspective

he has 0 foundation by which to build a jump shot or begin to work. 0 mechanical consistency, well documented struggles at the line. Questionable desire to work outside of the scheduled team shit.

there’s a path way to a team build around versatile front court players to pair with him to essentially be co rim weak side help defenders depending on the offensive attack. I could see in a purely hypothetical scenario a player like Collins being an intriguing pairing- not to say I want to see them make the moves to make that happen.

Im rambling a bit but I guess I view Simmons as a ball handler on offense but his limitations make it so he needs to be in line ups where he is essentially the center from a spacing perspective. You really get away with at most 1 non shooter on the floor at any given time to have an effective offense today. Is it worth the payroll commitment to a player that is that non shooter, yet probably is more of a super switchable 4 defensively than he is a true rim protecting 5?

in my opinion, he is an albatross on the level of Porzingis.

[Dejounte]

I don’t buy the rumor specifically because of Ben’s reputation of not really being tough enough (per Danny Green’s quote). Pop would eat him alive and drama will ensue.

[TD 21]

There's a good bit of chatter today on Twitter about our interest in Simmons again. I'm still not sure I buy that but, some in the Spurs Twitter universe keep insisting that we'd have to give up a ton of future assets for him. I'm not so sure that's what Philly would want unless ots a multi team deal sending our assets elsewhere for other players. I think they'd prefer a S&T or a straight up deal for DJ + White. Thoughts?

The only possibility I could see is something like this . . .

To Cavaliers: Murray, Milton . . . signed, affordable, better fitting young starter, young rotational guard and rid themselves of unwanted contract.

To 76ers: DeRozan (sign and trade), White, Spurs top 5 protected '22 1st . . . prime, go-to shot creator, malleable jack of all trades type and potential valuable young asset.

To Spurs: Simmons, Sexton, Osman . . . young foundational players and take on a salary dump.

Johnson/Samanic
Vassell/Osman/Jeffries?
Poeltl/Dieng?/Eubanks
Sexton/Walker IV
Simmons/Mills?/Jones

12th pick, 41st pick?

[Mr. Body]

Character issues aside... wait, no, character issues. Na. Ga. Happen.

[Dex]

I don’t buy the rumor specifically because of Ben’s reputation of not really being tough enough (per Danny Green’s quote). Pop would eat him alive and drama will ensue.

This, plus the perception that he isn't willing to put in the work and only surrounds himself with people/trainers who will coddle him.

Pretty much the opposite of a "Pop player", and definitely not the type of dude you want leading your team.

[The Truth #6]

This, plus the perception that he isn't willing to put in the work and only surrounds himself with people/trainers who will coddle him.

Pretty much the opposite of a "Pop player", and definitely not the type of dude you want leading your team.


In classic Spurs misdirection, perhaps they are, for some reason, allowing everyone to think we are considering to trade White and DJM for Simmons, when instead they are targeting someone else? Also unlikely, but perhaps more likely than all these weird leaks going around.

[MultiTroll]

Or maybe it's a classic Spurs misdirection to ensure we can lock up Patty again and make a run at stealing Bryn Forbes.

[exstatic]

Spurs will not do a Simmons trade without an OK from both Patty and former Spurs assistant and Sixers head coach Bret Brown. If either of them think he’s too much of a baby or too much trouble, it won’t happen.

[K...]

The spurs may say no to simmons, but kicking the the tires on a three team trade is smart. The market for the spurs players is tepid, but as a minor trade partner that matters less

[objective]

The DDR to Lakers for Kuzma and KCP is intriguing, especially if Spurs can manage to get Collins on a max and bring back Mills and Dieng. I don't foresee KCP as a long term piece for the Spurs as he'll naturally eat into Vassell and Walkers minutes. But that's a pretty deep team.

I'm not sure if they have enough caproom to sign Collins to a max sheet and still sign and trade DeRozan for Kuzma and KCP. Those 2 combined are $26 million, and that would only leave them with 18-22 million in space, not really enough for Collins. And that's without the Lakers including their first round pick. Mills and Dieng would have to be renounced also.

[Joseph Kony]

I'm not sure if they have enough caproom to sign Collins to a max sheet and still sign and trade DeRozan for Kuzma and KCP. Those 2 combined are $26 million, and that would only leave them with 18-22 million in space, not really enough for Collins. And that's without the Lakers including their first round pick. Mills and Dieng would have to be renounced also.
Chinook - is it even possible to do a S&T for DD to LA and still sign Collins to a max?

[tbdog]

I'm not sure if they have enough caproom to sign Collins to a max sheet and still sign and trade DeRozan for Kuzma and KCP. Those 2 combined are $26 million, and that would only leave them with 18-22 million in space, not really enough for Collins. And that's without the Lakers including their first round pick. Mills and Dieng would have to be renounced also.

Spurs have 60 mil in cap space.

[mo7888]

The only possibility I could see is something like this . . .

To Cavaliers: Murray, Milton . . . signed, affordable, better fitting young starter, young rotational guard and rid themselves of unwanted contract.

To 76ers: DeRozan (sign and trade), White, Spurs top 5 protected '22 1st . . . prime, go-to shot creator, malleable jack of all trades type and potential valuable young asset.

To Spurs: Simmons, Sexton, Osman . . . young foundational players and take on a salary dump.

Johnson/Samanic
Vassell/Osman/Jeffries?
Poeltl/Dieng?/Eubanks
Sexton/Walker IV
Simmons/Mills?/Jones

12th pick, 41st pick?

I gotta admit, that's a pretty interesting lineup...I wouldn't want to pay Sexton what he's seeking but from a basketball perspective it would make me want to watch if I were a casual fan out there...

[objective]

Spurs have 60 mil in cap space.

How is it that much? I'm using sportrac numbers and rounding

Projected cap at 112.4

White 15.2
Murray 15.4
Poeltl 8.8
Vassell 4.2
Walker 4.5
#12 3.9
Samanic 3.0
Keldon 2.1
Eubanks 1.8
Tre 1.5
Roster charge 0.9
Roster charge 0.9
Carroll's dead cap 1.2

That's a total of 63.4, not including the room exception which sportrac wants to include for some reason, leaving about 49 million in space.

[slick'81]

How is it that much? I'm using sportrac numbers and rounding

Projected cap at 112.4

White 15.2
Murray 15.4
Poeltl 8.8
Vassell 4.2
Walker 4.5
#12 3.9
Samanic 3.0
Keldon 2.1
Eubanks 1.8
Tre 1.5
Roster charge 0.9
Roster charge 0.9
Carroll's dead cap 1.2

That's a total of 63.4, not including the room exception which sportrac wants to include for some reason, leaving about 49 million in space.


Found this online-
Assuming the Spurs don’t make a trade, they guarantee Eubanks salary, they end up making the 12th pick in the draft, and they renounce the rights of all their free agents, the Spurs will have a total of $61,935,224 in guaranteed salary heading into free agency. With a projected salary cap of $112 million for the 2021-2022 season, that would give the Spurs roughly $47 million of cap space to work with to fill out the rest of the roster ($50 million minus roughly $3 million for the three incomplete roster charges they would incur for only have 10 players signed). They would also have access to the room exception worth around $5 million.

[objective]

Found this online-
Assuming the Spurs don’t make a trade, they guarantee Eubanks salary, they end up making the 12th pick in the draft, and they renounce the rights of all their free agents, the Spurs will have a total of $61,935,224 in guaranteed salary heading into free agency. With a projected salary cap of $112 million for the 2021-2022 season, that would give the Spurs roughly $47 million of cap space to work with to fill out the rest of the roster ($50 million minus roughly $3 million for the three incomplete roster charges they would incur for only have 10 players signed). They would also have access to the room exception worth around $5 million.

Right.

I suppose acquiring Kuzma and KCP would offset the roster charges, but that still would leave them with about 23? Million for Collins to start and Mills or Dieng would be stuck with the room exception or minimum.

What is Collins' max start number? 28?

[objective]

More on Collins: the locked on Hawks podcast host, who's pretty sharp, doesn't think the owner statements meant that they wouldn't match Collins.

The full context was more about the future and being unable to keep everyone over the years, but they wouldn't have any tax concerns for at least a year

[Uriel]

For Ben Simmons, would the Sixers accept an S&T for DeRozan?

[Dejounte]

More on Collins: the locked on Hawks podcast host, who's pretty sharp, doesn't think the owner statements meant that they wouldn't match Collins.

The full context was more about the future and being unable to keep everyone over the years, but they wouldn't have any tax concerns for at least a year


This is what I first thought when the article released. People got way too excited too fast.

[TD 21]

I gotta admit, that's a pretty interesting lineup...I wouldn't want to pay Sexton what he's seeking but from a basketball perspective it would make me want to watch if I were a casual fan out there...

I'm not a Simmons or Sexton fan, but there's zero indication that building a championship contender is the ultimate goal here anyway, so their flaws and salary in relation to that are virtually irrelevant.

The team would have higher upside (I like the 1-4 versatility defensively among the starters) and as you alluded to, they'd actually have something to sell to the fanbase, especially casuals.

[mo7888]

I'm not a Simmons or Sexton fan, but there's zero indication that building a championship contender is the ultimate goal here anyway, so their flaws and salary in relation to that are virtually irrelevant.

The team would have higher upside (I like the 1-4 versatility defensively among the starters) and as you alluded to, they'd actually have something to sell to the fanbase, especially casuals.

I agree with that too... I'm not a fan of either really and personally, I'd rather go in another direction but, you make good points here..

[slick'81]

More on Collins: the locked on Hawks podcast host, who's pretty sharp, doesn't think the owner statements meant that they wouldn't match Collins.

The full context was more about the future and being unable to keep everyone over the years, but they wouldn't have any tax concerns for at least a year

YEA HAWKS ARENT LETTING JC WALK FOR NOTHING. Spurs would have to get creative with numbers or make a s&t. Luka and lonnie def wont cut it

[Manu&Duncan fan]

This is what I first thought when the article released. People got way too excited too fast.

True. No way the Hawks let Collin go.

[Chinook]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) - is it even possible to do a S&T for DD to LA and still sign Collins to a max?

Yes. The longer answer is it would depend on what they took back from LAL and if they intend to keep guys like Gay and Mills on Bird contracts.

[CGD]

YEA HAWKS ARENT LETTING JC WALK FOR NOTHING. Spurs would have to get creative with numbers or make a s&t. Luka and lonnie def wont cut it

Ok, then I’m happy to wait and make an offer on Hunter once they’ve maxed Trae, Collins, and are paying salaries to Bobdonovic and Hueter. I honestly think Collins is their least important young player going forward.

[slick'81]

Ok, then I’m happy to wait and make an offer on Hunter once they’ve maxed Trae, Collins, and are paying salaries to Bobdonovic and Hueter. I honestly think Collins is their least important young player going forward.


Im down with that. Hunter eventually or collins would be fine by me.Hopefully spurs can maintain some cap flexibilty if they miss on their targets going forward

[Biggems]

For Ben Simmons, would the Sixers accept an S&T for DeRozan?

I want no part of his contract, especially since he is afraid to shoot. He has had the Yips his entire career. Fuck that.

[Teamduncan21]

I want no part of his contract, especially since he is afraid to shoot. He has had the Yips his entire career. Fuck that.

But we are not even playoff. We just need to get back to playoff. His non shooting woes usually appear during playoff when you play same opponent again and again and they push you to be as uncomfortable as you can

[tbdog]

Found this online-
Assuming the Spurs don’t make a trade, they guarantee Eubanks salary, they end up making the 12th pick in the draft, and they renounce the rights of all their free agents, the Spurs will have a total of $61,935,224 in guaranteed salary heading into free agency. With a projected salary cap of $112 million for the 2021-2022 season, that would give the Spurs roughly $47 million of cap space to work with to fill out the rest of the roster ($50 million minus roughly $3 million for the three incomplete roster charges they would incur for only have 10 players signed). They would also have access to the room exception worth around $5 million.

Some reason I thought the cap space was 120mil

[The Truth #6]

Or maybe it's a classic Spurs misdirection to ensure we can lock up Patty again and make a run at stealing Bryn Forbes.

The oldest trick in the book. Classic.

[The Truth #6]

I want no part of his contract, especially since he is afraid to shoot. He has had the Yips his entire career. Fuck that.

Agree. But there is evidence/speculation that he has been shooting with the wrong hand most of his career. Evidently does everything in life right handed but shoots left handed. Seemingly, there is a path to him becoming a better shooter but he refuses to switch back to his normal hand. Until he does he needs to play the 4, but refuses that also. So my issue with him is less about talent and more about mentality/ability to adapt. Those needed changes, plus moving to San Antonio? Seems like a revolt waiting to happen. But perhaps Patty would be his whisperer? Still probably too much to take on.

[exstatic]

Agree. But there is evidence/speculation that he has been shooting with the wrong hand most of his career. Evidently does everything in life right handed but shoots left handed. Seemingly, there is a path to him becoming a better shooter but he refuses to switch back to his normal hand. Until he does he needs to play the 4, but refuses that also. So my issue with him is less about talent and more about mentality/ability to adapt. Those needed changes, plus moving to San Antonio? Seems like a revolt waiting to happen. But perhaps Patty would be his whisperer? Still probably too much to take on.

One thing about SA: the press here are cream puffs compared to those jackals in Philly. That alone may improve his mental outlook.

As for the left handed thing, it shouldn’t matter. He’s shot competently in the past, and was trained by his father as a left handed shooter since he could pick up and dribble a ball. Everything wrong is between his ears.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

One thing about SA: the press here are cream puffs compared to those jackals in Philly. That alone may improve his mental outlook.

As for the left handed thing, it shouldn’t matter. He’s shot competently in the past, and was trained by his father as a left handed shooter since he could pick up and dribble a ball. Everything wrong is between his ears.

When has he shot competently? His shooting splits have been terrible outside of 3 feet form the basket throughout his career. His FT% has always been around 60%, which I guess you could argue is amazing compared to his last playoff heroics.

[The Truth #6]

A video on the theories about his shooting preference and why he needs to switch back to right handed.

https://youtu.be/VgPb7cP2mj4

[LeBowen]

When has he shot competently? His shooting splits have been terrible outside of 3 feet form the basket throughout his career. His FT% has always been around 60%, which I guess you could argue is amazing compared to his last playoff heroics.

He was decent in summer league. :rollin
https://twitter.com/TheHoopCentral/status/1406688970298200064

[R. DeMurre]

The 76ers have an MVP level center, a combo forward who averaged 19.5/6.8/3.5, five guys shooting over 37% from three, and an all world defender in Thybulle... and are looking to get rid of Simmons. I look at it this way: If the Spurs were fortunate enough to draft a guy this year who becomes an MVP candidate and they sign a couple of really good shooters and Vassell becomes a DPOY candidate and Keldon & Lonnie & Luka reach their absolute ceilings, the Spurs might be where the 76ers are now... trying to unload Ben Simmons. Also, the 76ers had the flexibility to do things before signing Simmons to a max contract-- a luxury the Spurs wouldn't have. I'd rather they just find a different route to improving.

[Teamduncan21]

The 76ers have an MVP level center, a combo forward who averaged 19.5/6.8/3.5, five guys shooting over 37% from three, and an all world defender in Thybulle... and are looking to get rid of Simmons. I look at it this way: If the Spurs were fortunate enough to draft a guy this year who becomes an MVP candidate and they sign a couple of really good shooters and Vassell becomes a DPOY candidate and Keldon & Lonnie & Luka reach their absolute ceilings, the Spurs might be where the 76ers are now... trying to unload Ben Simmons. Also, the 76ers had the flexibility to do things before signing Simmons to a max contract-- a luxury the Spurs wouldn't have. I'd rather they just find a different route to improving.
















It's about having a known star in the roster, that will be able to attract more free agents.
I'm not a big fan of him. But I get the rationale behind. It's about trying to be relevant and hope to make playoffs again and to cut the rebuild time.

I guess another option is complete rebuild.

[R. DeMurre]

Also, the vibe I get from Simmons is really weird too. Jimmy Butler had the option of staying with an obviously very talented team, but decided to leave. Ben's own coach and teammates just after their last game of their playoff run were so exasperated with him that they pretty much said he was their main problem, not attempting to sugar coat it or be even a little bit diplomatic. Plus he dated a Kardashian-- the surest sign of bad decision making tendencies!

[R. DeMurre]

It's about having a known star in the roster, that will be able to attract more free agents.
I'm not a big fan of him. But I get the rationale behind. It's about trying to be relevant and hope to make playoffs again and to cut the rebuild time.

I guess another option is complete rebuild.

Jimmy Butler and Joel Embiid have both seemed completely frustrated by Simmons. I think he's more likely to repel stars than attract them.

[PhantomDashCam]

The Dame Lillard trade chatter on Twitter seems legit.
Lots of reports about wanting out.

Philly better gear up.

https://twitter.com/Sam_Vecenie/status/1416146084649488391?s=20

[Twisted_Dawg]

I just hope we're not the clueless desperate patsy that helps out the big market teams and takes on Simmons and his contract. Shades of the 80s when we were the Lakers bitch.

[Dejounte]

Holy shit. What a way to throw your teammates under the bus.

[KobesAchilles]

Holy shit. What a way to throw your teammates under the bus.
Yeah but he isn’t wrong. I never really got the whole you have to walk on tippy toes when you have sucky teammates to the media. Call them out tbh. If they don’t improve after that, both players and management,
that’s not on you. Hell Larry Bird called Kevin McHale a pussy in the finals. He said the word sissy but I guarantee he didn’t use that word in the locker room.

[Dejounte]

Eh. I get all the old school shit and doing whatever it takes to have a better winning situation, that doesnt mean I agree with it. Theres always a better way to handle things. In any other professional environment, What Damian said is poor leadership, simple as that.

[SAGirl]

I didn't know where to place this and don't want to create a new thread for it, but the play in is coming back for another season...

1416105884485365767

[RC_Drunkford]

If the Spurs have a chance at landing Simmons get him. Simply cause we got Chip. He can fix anybody's shot and Simmons wouldn't have any pressure playing for San Antonio. Package DeRozan and White. Keep Murray. Let Simmons play SF and get a 3-point shooting PF and a stretch 5.

The play in tournament is wack

[KDKSpurs24]

If the Spurs have a chance at landing Simmons get him. Simply cause we got Chip. He can fix anybody's shot and Simmons wouldn't have any pressure playing for San Antonio. Package DeRozan and White. Keep Murray. Let Simmons play SF and get a 3-point shooting PF and a stretch 5.

The play in tournament is wack

I don’t know about that.. DeMar’s 3 point shot didn’t get fixed. Ben Simmons is way worse off than DeRozan ever was. And I know Simmons is still young but he’s unusually and historically bad at shooting.

[BacktoBasics]

I don’t know about that.. DeMar’s 3 point shot didn’t get fixed. Ben Simmons is way worse off than DeRozan ever was. And I know Simmons is still young but he’s unusually and historically bad at shooting.

DDR’s shot didn’t necessarily need fixing. His mentality did. Although I think Simmons isn’t much different as far as mental barriers go he has much further to go offensively as a whole. I do think it’s easier to get a break through with a 24 year old Simmons than DDR.

The advantage with Simmons is that if he’s traded here he’ll have less pressure on him to make those mental and style changes. Could take a season or two… whereas with Philly he is basically expected to make that change in one offseason.

For the record I don’t see Ben coming here. There are sooo many better trades for Philly before they sniff at what we have to offer.

[Kurik]

Chip is a miracle worker but he can only work his magic when the player is all in. I don’t see that happening with Simmons, just puts off a bad vibe ever since college.

[Chinook]

My mind is sort of blown by how many people think Simmons wouldn't be a massive upgrade over any player on the roster. I do think there's a limit to what the team can trade for him, but it'd be easy to make a playoff team around him. The only player who'd even have an argument against him is a fictionally fully healthy Derrick White. Theoretically, the Spurs could trade Murray, Poeltl and incentive to take Simmons into cap space. If they then do the DMDR for Kuzma/KCP trade, they'd have up to $10 Million in cap space. Earmark the room exception to bring Dieng back, draft a center like Queta with the not-12 pick (28 in my Capulator mock-up),and you have a pretty chunk of coin to add shooting or even bring Mills back. Round out the roster buy locking up Weatherspoon and KBD to long-term cheap deals, and you get:

White, Mills, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, KCP, KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

I'd prefer to swap Mills out for a capable guard who can run an offense when White is hurt, but Patty should fit well with Simmons, and the culture and all that. An alternative to either Kuzma or Caldwell-Pop could be a Schroeder S&T, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. Maybe the Spurs could take back Hill in the Simmons trade while the Lakers sent Dennis to Philly? That might actually work better, and it would be fun to have George back after the last few crazy years to his career. They'd have to find a rotation-caliber forward with the salary saved though.

White, Hill, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, (FA Wing), KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

Or other combos. Either way, I think a team built around Simmons is functional and better than what SA is running with currently. It'd not hard to have good spacing if you don't devote like 60 percent of your minutes to non-shooters. Swapping out Jakob for Dieng or another stretch-five is crucial, so keeping White and Vassell becomes a huge deal, as is getting a guy to spell White and take over for Dieng as he stops being even a technical starter. The center problem would likely need to be addressed with the MLE the following season

[talkspurs]

My mind is sort of blown by how many people think Simmons wouldn't be a massive upgrade over any player on the roster. I do think there's a limit to what the team can trade for him, but it'd be easy to make a playoff team around him. The only player who'd even have an argument against him is a fictionally fully healthy Derrick White. Theoretically, the Spurs could trade Murray, Poeltl and incentive to take Simmons into cap space. If they then do the DMDR for Kuzma/KCP trade, they'd have up to $10 Million in cap space. Earmark the room exception to bring Dieng back, draft a center like Queta with the not-12 pick (28 in my Capulator mock-up),and you have a pretty chunk of coin to add shooting or even bring Mills back. Round out the roster buy locking up Weatherspoon and KBD to long-term cheap deals, and you get:

White, Mills, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, KCP, KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

I'd prefer to swap Mills out for a capable guard who can run an offense when White is hurt, but Patty should fit well with Simmons, and the culture and all that. An alternative to either Kuzma or Caldwell-Pop could be a Schroeder S&T, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. Maybe the Spurs could take back Hill in the Simmons trade while the Lakers sent Dennis to Philly? That might actually work better, and it would be fun to have George back after the last few crazy years to his career. They'd have to find a rotation-caliber forward with the salary saved though.

White, Hill, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, (FA Wing), KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

Or other combos. Either way, I think a team built around Simmons is functional and better than what SA is running with currently. It'd not hard to have good spacing if you don't devote like 60 percent of your minutes to non-shooters. Swapping out Jakob for Dieng or another stretch-five is crucial, so keeping White and Vassell becomes a huge deal, as is getting a guy to spell White and take over for Dieng as he stops being even a technical starter. The center problem would likely need to be addressed with the MLE the following season

How can you be so high on Simmons yet so low on DJ? I know you and some others on here done believe me but DJ is the better player and will continue to be the better player. You keep talking about spacing but then you want to bring in Ben when DJ shoots and makes more 3s and way more mid range 2s. you mention needing a floor spacing 5 with Ben (which I agree) but embid shot 3s in Philly and it did not work. why would it work here?

[Dejounte]

How can you be so high on Simmons yet so low on DJ? I know you and some others on here done believe me but DJ is the better player and will continue to be the better player. You keep talking about spacing but then you want to bring in Ben when DJ shoots and makes more 3s and way more mid range 2s. you mention needing a floor spacing 5 with Ben (which I agree) but embid shot 3s in Philly and it did not work. why would it work here?

It's called doubling down. Maybe not doubling down at this point, but tripling down. Hell, probably quadrupling down. Chinook really hasn't been the same since the Spurs started utilizing Aldridge differently. From there, it's just constant shitting on the team. Doesn't matter if the player isn't even bad.

I'm fucking with you, Chinook. You're a good guy. But it is silly when you consistently have the most unpopular opinion every. single. time. I think you're doing this on purpose :lmao the ultimate contrarian.

[R. DeMurre]

we got Chip. He can fix anybody's shot

He hasn't fixed DeRozan's shot.

[Mr. Body]

What's disturbing about Simmons is he hasn't improved an inch since he started in the league. Last year was adv. statistically his worst. That's forgiveable, but otherwise he's not doing much of anything right now he wasn't four years ago.