NBA Trade Deadline 2023 [Archive] - Page 2

Rocalcio

02-03-2023, 06:56 AM

The point is over the bolded portion, which is debatable.

I actually like Keldon, but I think he's a modern Alvin Robertson for our team. Appears to be a good part of our young core, but in honesty can be moved for the right complementary piece once our true superstar arrives. I see the way we traded Alvin for Terry Cummings as a good example of what we could potentially do.

With that said, we certainly don't HAVE to trade him. I like the idea of packaging Keldon and Devin for an upgraded wing scorer like Mathurin or Ivey.

What ? Mathurin is certainly promising, but there is no way you get him for both Johnson and Vassell.

Rocalcio

02-03-2023, 06:58 AM

I hope the Spurs can trade for Lauri Markkanen. An all star player on a really good contract that really fits the modern NBA. I don’t think they would even have to trade much to get him tbh… oh wait. Wrong year I guess. You’d think there would be a thread made about him in the past. But I guess some people only focus their attention whore seeking ways on bumping the rare threads they actually got right…

Still would’ve been nice to have gotten him on the cheap.

And you’d play Markkanen at what position ? Because at 4 we’re good with Sochan.

Rocalcio

02-03-2023, 06:59 AM

Bad comparison. Alvin would have been almost untouchable if he wasn't having off the court drama. Great trade in retrospect but man people forget how nasty a player Alvin was and god what I would have given to see a defense anchored by him and David if he could have kept his life together at that time. And Sean Elliott too, damn would that have been a tough team to score on in the 90s. You're not getting a guy like Terry Cummings for Keldon.

Yes, you get today’s Cummings, aged 61. ^^

KingKev

02-03-2023, 08:23 AM

And you’d play Markkanen at what position ? Because at 4 we’re good with Sochan.

I didn’t want Mark at the time and he would be too costly these days but I would pigeon hole Sochan as strictly a 4 and could easily see him being inter changeable at the 3 and 4 as his game matures.

The Truth #6

02-03-2023, 09:40 AM

Jeremy can guard several positions so I think that gives him lots of opportunities to be in different lineups, especially if his shot stays decent.

BacktoBasics

02-03-2023, 10:06 AM

What ? Mathurin is certainly promising, but there is no way you get him for both Johnson and Vassell.

That's not really a great trade for either team. Not that either team wouldn't benefit but there are shortcomings both ways for both teams.

LeBowen

02-03-2023, 10:18 AM

I doubt Utah would even want to trade Markkanen and there's no point in going for him now after pretty much everyone was happy we didn't take him in DDR trade.

We really need those big trades to start happening soon, so we can get rid of JRich and Doug.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 10:24 AM

KingKev

02-03-2023, 10:24 AM

mo7888

02-03-2023, 01:05 PM

CGD

02-03-2023, 01:07 PM

Ariel

02-03-2023, 01:30 PM

What do you think is more valuable in a trade: our 1st from Charlotte or or 2nd this year?

In a scenario like the Toronto deal last year where we got a 1st and gave back an asset (a 2nd) would a team prefer the Charlotte pick knowing it won't convey this year or the guarantee of a 2nd at the top of that round?
That CHA pick is garbage unless they land wemby. Im internalizing that its basically two SRPs in the 40s at this point. Im happy to use it to sweeten deals or swap it to upgrade picks.

I honestly believe CHA has taken the mantle from SAC as worst run franchise.
Tough call. That Charlotte pick is:
1) Imṕossible to convey in '23 (top 16 protected)
2) Extremely unlikely to convey in '24 (top 14 protected, they must jump from trash to playoff team in one year)
3) IMO Unlikely to convey in '25, unless all planets align (they land Wemby, they resign Bridges and/or another top FA, Mark Williams takes a huge jump forward in his third year, etc)
4) Otherwise turns into 2 seconds in '26 & '27
I think the Charlotte pick has a small chance of conveying as a first (below 20% at best), but if it doesn't it may turn into 2 seconds but in 4 and 5 years time. If they were bad enough for it not to convey as a first rounder by '25 then those 2nds should still be good (low to mid), but it's all speculation and no one knows for sure.
On the other hand, our second is certain and very good (31-33 range IMO, almost a late first rounder), and in the short term.
So all in all I think the value is close, when you consider the uncertainties and delay involved in the Charlotte pick, compared to our own 2nd.
I would wait until this year's lottery to see where Charlotte stands. If they land a high pick and take a good player, we could wait it out. If they pick 5 or below and take one of the Thompson twins, Nick Smith, or some long term project like that, then I'd try to use it this very draft for a pick in the 20s or a trade for a young player, by itself or along other assets... but we shouldn't wait beyond next season to make a decision, it may be too late by then.

scott

02-03-2023, 01:35 PM

Hate to say it because Cadillac was a really nice guy I got to talk to a lot when he was on the team, but he was more like a throw in, Alvin was the meat of that deal. Keldon isn't going to land you much as a centerpiece in trade, he's an average starting SF with maybe above average starting SF potential in a couple of years. He's more like the kind of guy you trade for to get something of value if your star forces his way out, not the kind of guy GM's are going to be ringing you up for dangling stars or real building blocks.

We aren't in disagreement here... and the "like Mathurin or Ivey" is a hypothetical around the type of player we should want along side our alpha. If you land Wemby, I think the Spurs should immediately transition from multi-year tank mode to immediately building around your newly drafted Superstar, much like we did in 1989. Devin and Keldon are really the only assets we'll have (assuming Sochan is untouchable) along side the bevvy of draft picks we'll have accumulated (and perhaps even more if we do some deals around the deadline).

I'd hope we'd be able to do SOMETHING with those trade pieces, but maybe we don't need to move Devin or Keldon at all and could just use the draft picks for the kind of deal that ATL did for DJM or CLE did for Mitchell. But I don't want to see us land Wemby and then have two more years of top-5 picks... that's just going to result in Wemby being developed in a losing atmosphere that could lead him to want out. The 1989 model is the way to go. If Wemby is our DRob, Sochan can be our Sean and another one of our young guys can be our Willie. Bring in vets to surround that young core, don't just amass a team of young, talented but clueless prospects.

scott

02-03-2023, 01:38 PM

Tough call. That Charlotte pick is:
1) Imṕossible to convey in '23 (top 16 protected)
2) Extremely unlikely to convey in '24 (top 14 protected, they must jump from trash to playoff team in one year)
3) IMO Unlikely to convey in '25, unless all planets align (they land Wemby, they resign Bridges and/or another top FA, Mark Williams takes a huge jump forward in his third year, etc)
4) Otherwise turns into 2 seconds in '26 & '27
I think the Charlotte pick has a small chance of conveying as a first (below 20% at best), but if it doesn't it may turn into 2 seconds but in 4 and 5 years time. If they were bad enough for it not to convey as a first rounder by '25 then those 2nds should still be good (low to mid), but it's all speculation and no one knows for sure.
On the other hand, our second is certain and very good (31-33 range IMO, almost a late first rounder), and in the short term.
So all in all I think the value is close, when you consider the uncertainties and delay involved in the Charlotte pick, compared to our own 2nd.
I would wait until this year's lottery to see where Charlotte stands. If they land a high pick and take a good player, we could wait it out. If they pick 5 or below and take one of the Thompson twins, Nick Smith, or some long term project like that, then I'd try to use it this very draft for a pick in the 20s or a trade for a young player, by itself or along other assets... but we shouldn't wait beyond next season to make a decision, it may be too late by then.

What do you think a package like this looks like? Of course the CHA pick alone won't do it. Would CHI pick + CHA pick be enough, or would we have to throw in one of ours with some (lighter than 1-16) protections?

CGD

02-03-2023, 01:47 PM

What do you think a package like this looks like? Of course the CHA pick alone won't do it. Would CHI pick + CHA pick be enough, or would we have to throw in one of ours with some (lighter than 1-16) protections?

I’m using it a different way. For example if there is a Jak trade with BOS for filler + clean 28FRP, I’d add the CHA pick to try to secure another FRP from Boston but that offers more favorable protections for us than CHA pick. Or in a Richardson + CHA pick to get Wiseman. Etc

scott

02-03-2023, 01:52 PM

I’m using it a different way. For example if there is a Jak trade with BOS for filler + clean 28FRP, I’d add the CHA pick to try to secure another FRP from Boston but that offers more favorable protections for us than CHA pick. Or in a Richardson + CHA pick to get Wiseman. Etc

I don't like the Wiseman idea specifically, but I agree we should be looking to attach that CHA pick to something this deadline to grease some wheels. We have enough draft capital without some weak ass CHA "maybe" pick

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 01:52 PM

What do you think a package like this looks like? Of course the CHA pick alone won't do it. Would CHI pick + CHA pick be enough, or would we have to throw in one of ours with some (lighter than 1-16) protections?

I could see something where SA trades McD, Zach or Josh like they did with Thad and using the CHA pick for a more guaranteed first this year.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 01:53 PM

RC_Drunkford

02-03-2023, 01:55 PM

wild. Hope it's not the Lakers

1621582468762460161

scott

02-03-2023, 01:55 PM

Breaking: Brooklyn Nets All-Star Kyrie Irving has requested a trade, league sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. The franchise has been informed that Irving prefers to move on ahead of the Feb. 9 trade deadline – or will leave in free agency in July.

Shams

I just need Harden to request a trade for my bingo to hit.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 01:56 PM

We aren't in disagreement here... and the "like Mathurin or Ivey" is a hypothetical around the type of player we should want along side our alpha. If you land Wemby, I think the Spurs should immediately transition from multi-year tank mode to immediately building around your newly drafted Superstar, much like we did in 1989. Devin and Keldon are really the only assets we'll have (assuming Sochan is untouchable) along side the bevvy of draft picks we'll have accumulated (and perhaps even more if we do some deals around the deadline).

I'd hope we'd be able to do SOMETHING with those trade pieces, but maybe we don't need to move Devin or Keldon at all and could just use the draft picks for the kind of deal that ATL did for DJM or CLE did for Mitchell. But I don't want to see us land Wemby and then have two more years of top-5 picks... that's just going to result in Wemby being developed in a losing atmosphere that could lead him to want out. The 1989 model is the way to go. If Wemby is our DRob, Sochan can be our Sean and another one of our young guys can be our Willie. Bring in vets to surround that young core, don't just amass a team of young, talented but clueless prospects.

I think 1989 expectations would be wildly unrealistic. 20 year-old Wembanyama isn't going to be 24 year-old David Robinson ready to take this team from the lottery to winning the division. Like it or not Spurs are looking at another year or two of being in the high lottery most likely after getting Wemby. Sure if a situation like dumping draft picks to get a young Donovan Mitchell presents itself then jump on it, but I'd have no interest in getting vets much older than that considering Wembanyama is still going to take some time to develop into an MVP candidate.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 01:56 PM

I’m using it a different way. For example if there is a Jak trade with BOS for filler + clean 28FRP, I’d add the CHA pick to try to secure another FRP from Boston but that offers more favorable protections for us than CHA pick. Or in a Richardson + CHA pick to get Wiseman. Etc

I agree with your thoughts on Boston... I'd leave Wiseman alone though..

scott

02-03-2023, 01:56 PM

Ariel

02-03-2023, 01:59 PM

What do you think a package like this looks like? Of course the CHA pick alone won't do it. Would CHI pick + CHA pick be enough, or would we have to throw in one of ours with some (lighter than 1-16) protections?
The Chicago is protected 10-8-8, I think it's a relatively good pick with a 3 year window and decreasing, reasonable protections... It has good value by itself, if we use on a mediocre pick (say 25-30) to sweeten Charlotte's pick, we're losing on one hand what we're gaining on the other. I'd leave that one alone.
As for the Charlotte pick, it's all very contingent on the circumstances. Sometimes a team has a certain target late in the draft, and if that player is already taken the pick becomes a burden, as they'd rather avoid the guaranteed rookie scale contract for someone they're not invested in. In that case the Charlotte pick may be enough by itself, as the chance of an uncertain mid first in the future is preferable to a wasted first in the present... in these cases sometimes a team will trade a late first for a couple future 2nds if no better deal is on the table.
Attaching another pick could be an interesting scenario, depending on how good the pick is and how interesting the player within reach is, you could add the '24 Lakers' second we got in exchange for Kennedy Chandler's rights (say for a pick in the very low high 20s), or even our own '23 2nd (essentially we'd be using Charlotte's pick to pay for the upgrade between 31-33 an a first in the low 20s), etc.
Mainly I'd try to make sure we land a first out of that Charlotte pick by using one or more 2nds, which are usually garbage. But it's all very much contingent on a lot of factors, my point is PATFO shouldn't wait too long or it will lose even more value than it already has (FU, Miles Bridges!).

mo7888

02-03-2023, 01:59 PM

I could see something where SA trades McD, Zach or Josh like they did with Thad and using the CHA pick for a more guaranteed first this year.

Yes, and this was the jist of my question...I think tbe answer lies within the parameters of who were trading with. Some teams may covet a pick this year, in which case our 2nd is more valuable but if the team is a contender they may prefer to defer a year or two with an upside chance that the Charlotte pick os a mid first.

scott

02-03-2023, 01:59 PM

I think 1989 expectations would be wildly unrealistic. 20 year-old Wembanyama isn't going to be 24 year-old David Robinson ready to take this team from the lottery to winning the division. Like it or not Spurs are looking at another year or two of being in the high lottery most likely after getting Wemby. Sure if a situation like dumping draft picks to get a young Donovan Mitchell presents itself then jump on it, but I'd have no interest in getting vets much older than that considering Wembanyama is still going to take some time to develop into an MVP candidate.

While not a DRob/Timmy like jump (both the biggest turnarounds in NBA history), I would hope we'd see at least a Ja-like jump where we go from one of the worst in the league to a play-in range team.

Ariel

02-03-2023, 02:04 PM

Breaking: Brooklyn Nets All-Star Kyrie Irving has requested a trade, league sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. The franchise has been informed that Irving prefers to move on ahead of the Feb. 9 trade deadline – or will leave in free agency in July.

Shams
I'd be shocked if Kyrie did this without having some pre arranged destination already in the works. My money is on the Lakers, of course.

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:07 PM

I think 1989 expectations would be wildly unrealistic. 20 year-old Wembanyama isn't going to be 24 year-old David Robinson ready to take this team from the lottery to winning the division. Like it or not Spurs are looking at another year or two of being in the high lottery most likely after getting Wemby. Sure if a situation like dumping draft picks to get a young Donovan Mitchell presents itself then jump on it, but I'd have no interest in getting vets much older than that considering Wembanyama is still going to take some time to develop into an MVP candidate.

Hmm, not so sure of that, tbh. West is pretty mediocre and I truly believe Wemby is gonna be a game changer his very first step on an NBA floor. He's gonna make SA an "attractive" destination too and with all the picks, cap and assets spurs have to trade with, plus Sochan, I think you can build a competitive team as soon as next year...

And that may be considered as sacrilege, but in my mind 20 Wemby > 24 DRob.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 02:09 PM

I'd be shocked if Kyrie did this without having some pre arranged destination already in the works. My money is on the Lakers, of course.

I agree... but does Brooklyn really want to trade him for the LA picks? If they only get picks KD will demand a trade too.... I think this leads too one of two outcomes: 1) Brooklyn trades Kyrie and KD and blows it up or 2) they move him in a 3 team deal, sending WB elsewhere attached to picks and get real players back.

My bet is on the latter...

Dverde

02-03-2023, 02:13 PM

Sean Marks going to follow Kliff Kingsbury in the off-season

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 02:15 PM

While not a DRob/Timmy like jump (both the biggest turnarounds in NBA history), I would hope we'd see at least a Ja-like jump where we go from one of the worst in the league to a play-in range team.

They went from a 33 win team to a 34 win team in Ja's rookie year to a 38 win team his second year and didn't get much interesting in trade for Mike Conley, and Ja also had two years in college. And as great a prospect as Wemby is, gotta remember he ain't Doncic, who was the best player in Euroleague when drafted. Wemby went to a weaker league this year and last year in Euroleague he was a 6.5 PPG and 3.8 REB guy, gotta expect he's still going to be a project.

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 02:16 PM

I'd be shocked if Kyrie did this without having some pre arranged destination already in the works. My money is on the Lakers, of course.

Kyrie was looking for an extension as much as a week ago. He wants money. Just like him to torpedo his team and FO a week until the deadline.

I figure the Nets expected him to leave this summer anyway. Let some other team take the antisemite.

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:18 PM

Maybe Irving wants a place where he can be antisemitic without being fined.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 02:18 PM

Hmm, not so sure of that, tbh. West is pretty mediocre and I truly believe Wemby is gonna be a game changer his very first step on an NBA floor. He's gonna make SA an "attractive" destination too and with all the picks, cap and assets spurs have to trade with, plus Sochan, I think you can build a competitive team as soon as next year...

And that may be considered as sacrilege, but in my mind 20 Wemby > 24 DRob.

That's lunacy. Wemby is still pretty far from being in his athletic prime with that frame he has. If he was anything close to 24 year old Robinson he'd be dominating Euroleague.

Ariel

02-03-2023, 02:22 PM

I agree... but does Brooklyn really want to trade him for the LA picks? If they only get picks KD will demand a trade too.... I think this leads too one of two outcomes: 1) Brooklyn trades Kyrie and KD and blows it up or 2) they move him in a 3 team deal, sending WB elsewhere attached to picks and get real players back.

My bet is on the latter...
It depends on what they can get in terms of actual players, with this limited timeframe. If the Lakers offer those 2 unprotected firsts (or one and an unprotected swap), the Nets could take the value now and flip them in the offseason for actual help. The Durant situation will blow up sooner rather than later, I think it may be in the best interest of the Nets and Durant himself to agree to finish the season and find him a new home in the offseason.
BTW, if the Lakers cough up both unprotected firsts, the Nets may become a dark horse for OG Anunoby, by rerouting them to Toronto.

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:27 PM

That's lunacy. Wemby is still pretty far from being in his athletic prime with that frame he has. If he was anything close to 24 year old Robinson he'd be dominating Euroleague.

He doesn't play in Euroleague so he'd have a hard time dominating it, but I'm expecting nothing else than an MJ type of rookie year for Wemby. He is unguardable in a league where defense is a forbidden word and where he will be surrounded by with teammates 5 times better than who he has ever played with.

It' pointless to try to imagine his rookie season based on what he's doing in the french league. It's all about potential and match ups. Wherever he lands up, he'll become the central point of the team.. His 3 pt shot is factually unblockable, he could just stand the whole game in his favorite 3 spot, and no one could prevent him from keeping shooting. He's like nothing we've ever seen, so even comparing with DRob makes no sense, he's just himself.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 02:29 PM

He does'nt play Euroleague so he'd have a hard time dominatng it, but I'm expectng nothing else than an MJ type of rookie year for Wemby. He is unguardable in a league where defense is a forbidden word and where he will be surrounded by with temmates 5 times better than who he has ever played with.

It' pointless to try to imagine his rookie season based on what he's doing in the french league. It's all about potential and match ups. Wherever he lands up, he'll become the central point of the team.. His 3 pt shot is factually unblockable. He could just stand the whole game in his favorite 3 spot and no one couldn't prevent him from keeping shooting. He's like nothing we've ever seen, so even comparing with DRob makes no sense, he's just himself.

So he wasn't ready for Euroleague this year but he's going to dominate the NBA next year?

cjw

02-03-2023, 02:30 PM

I agree... but does Brooklyn really want to trade him for the LA picks? If they only get picks KD will demand a trade too.... I think this leads too one of two outcomes: 1) Brooklyn trades Kyrie and KD and blows it up or 2) they move him in a 3 team deal, sending WB elsewhere attached to picks and get real players back.

My bet is on the latter...

They don’t need to trade him for the LA picks if a third team becomes involved.

Issue is the Lakers probably don’t have the assets to move off Westbrook AND bring in Irving. But Kyrie’s value could be diminished to the point where that’s the best they can do.

As one of the few teams with cap space though, if Kyrie is in fact being moved it could create a domino effect where the space on its own can be used to accumulate assets (cap space facilitates trades). Combine that with useful vets on reasonable or expiring deals, and significant upgrades can be made.

A framework around Kyrie and Westbrook with two of Poeltl, Richardson, McD going out makes all the sense in the world but I would hold out until the last minute. Why use up all space in one deal, when you may be able to use it in smaller chunks on multiple deals?

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:31 PM

So he wasn't ready for Euroleague this year but he's going to dominate the NBA next year?

His team isn't qualified for the Euroleague.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 02:36 PM

They don’t need to trade him for the LA picks if a third team becomes involved.

Issue is the Lakers probably don’t have the assets to move off Westbrook AND bring in Irving. But Kyrie’s value could be diminished to the point where that’s the best they can do.

As one of the few teams with cap space though, if Kyrie is in fact being moved it could create a domino effect where the space on its own can be used to accumulate assets (cap space facilitates trades). Combine that with useful vets on reasonable or expiring deals, and significant upgrades can be made.

A framework around Kyrie and Westbrook with two of Poeltl, Richardson, McD going out makes all the sense in the world but I would hold out until the last minute. Why use up all space in one deal, when you may be able to use it in smaller chunks on multiple deals?

It does have the potential to create a plethora of deals that can be out on the table... LA could conceivable take back Kyrie and McD if the want.... heck, Brooklyn could even take KJ in an unbalanced part of the deal....not that I expect that...I'm just pointing out that the possibilities are considerable..

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 02:37 PM

His team isn't qualified for the Euroleague.

Well yeah he left his team that was in Euroleague.

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:39 PM

Besides, DRob was playing in a league where bigs still had a major role and weren't just pnr, rim protector stiffs. Let's be honest, Dave was an incredible athlete but wan't a pure shooter or a real passer. Like all the bigs form that era, he was basically leaving in the paint and would have a hard time playing in today's "stretch bigs" NBA...

Wemby is a one of a kind modern big with great handles who can shoot (including the 3), pass and block... He's basically a 7'4 wing.

Ariel

02-03-2023, 02:41 PM

Issue is the Lakers probably don’t have the assets to move off Westbrook AND bring in Irving. But Kyrie’s value could be diminished to the point where that’s the best they can do.
They have 2 unprotected firsts ('27 & '29) + 2 unprotected swaps ('26 & '28) + 4 seconds ('23, '25, '27 & '28). That's more than enough to get it done, and then some. The question is, are they willing to pull the trigger?

JPB

02-03-2023, 02:41 PM

Well yeah he left his team that was in Euroleague.

That's right, so he can quietly work on his body and game and prepare for the NBA (and be closer to his family and friends) And to join coach Collet who is know for developing young guys.

But we'll see.

scott

02-03-2023, 02:48 PM

They went from a 33 win team to a 34 win team in Ja's rookie year to a 38 win team his second year and didn't get much interesting in trade for Mike Conley, and Ja also had two years in college. And as great a prospect as Wemby is, gotta remember he ain't Doncic, who was the best player in Euroleague when drafted. Wemby went to a weaker league this year and last year in Euroleague he was a 6.5 PPG and 3.8 REB guy, gotta expect he's still going to be a project.

There is some context lacking here though. They went from a 33-49 team before Ja (12th in the west, tied for 7th worst overall record) to a 34-39 team in a COVID shortened season that forced a Play-In game. The following season then went 38-34 in another shortened season, and were again a Play-In team. If Wemby can't lead us out of the bottom 5 as a rookie, he isn't the generational talent he is touted to be.

cjw

02-03-2023, 02:48 PM

It does have the potential to create a plethora of deals that can be out on the table... LA could conceivable take back Kyrie and McD if the want.... heck, Brooklyn could even take KJ in an unbalanced part of the deal....not that I expect that...I'm just pointing out that the possibilities are considerable..

One other possibility is unburdening the Charlotte pick as part of the deal by taking on Hayward (two years left) while they take on Westbrook (expires this year) - that has to have value for them. Plumlee could be useful going back to Nets as well. Removing protections means they’re more easily able to trade other future picks. I doubt they’d go full unprotected in this draft, but may go top 3, top 3 and then unprotected in 2025. I would need at least that to rent out cap space into next year.

Hayward coming back also means only having to trade one guy in a deal instead of two with Westbrook to make numbers work. But those other trades would be harder to facilitate because of no remaining cap space. Though you can aggregate trades with the league office.

Leetonidas

02-03-2023, 02:49 PM

What a fucking joke. Dude will be a Laker, just watch

LeBowen

02-03-2023, 02:49 PM

What a league, good job Silver.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 03:17 PM

There is some context lacking here though. They went from a 33-49 team before Ja (12th in the west, tied for 7th worst overall record) to a 34-39 team in a COVID shortened season that forced a Play-In game. The following season then went 38-34 in another shortened season, and were again a Play-In team. If Wemby can't lead us out of the bottom 5 as a rookie, he isn't the generational talent he is touted to be.

Yeah you're right, forgot to factor in the shorter schedule. Morant's rookie year they were five games better than the previous year prorated to 82 games. I think Wemby's body ain't gonna be ready for 82 games as a rookie though, he's not like LeBron who entered the league built like a tank already. I wouldn't hold it against Wemby if he's in the lottery next year. Do you think less of Durant for leading the Sonics to the lottery his rookie year when he wasn't yet physically built for the NBA yet?

R. DeMurre

02-03-2023, 03:18 PM

How's is Kyrie's constant kooky behavior Adam Silver's fault?

spurraider21

02-03-2023, 03:19 PM

How's is Kyrie's constant kooky behavior Adam Silver's fault?
its not kyrie's cookiness, its just this new age trend of incessant trade demands being placated

but again, im not exactly sure how thats silver's fault necessarily, though he's kinda done nothing to slow it

scott

02-03-2023, 03:32 PM

Yeah you're right, forgot to factor in the shorter schedule. Morant's rookie year they were five games better than the previous year prorated to 82 games. I think Wemby's body ain't gonna be ready for 82 games as a rookie though, he's not like LeBron who entered the league built like a tank already. I wouldn't hold it against Wemby if he's in the lottery next year. Do you think less of Durant for leading the Sonics to the lottery his rookie year when he wasn't yet physically built for the NBA yet?

This is a good thought exercise. I could be misremembering how hyped up Durant was coming into the league, but I don't recall him being touted as much as Wemby. I certainly don't recall him being hyped as this generational/can't miss talent the way LeBron, Timmy were. The Sonics regressed big time Durant's rookie year (going from Bob Hill lol to PJ), but man their roster was really bleak. However... was it any more bleak than this Spurs roster? That's a good question that might require some hard to swallow pills. They were also on the Sam Presti plan, so one must question how much will to improve that franchise had.

MannyIsGod

02-03-2023, 03:32 PM

wild. Hope it's not the Lakers

1621582468762460161

LOL That team is such a shit show. Poor patty tho.

MannyIsGod

02-03-2023, 03:38 PM

We aren't in disagreement here... and the "like Mathurin or Ivey" is a hypothetical around the type of player we should want along side our alpha. If you land Wemby, I think the Spurs should immediately transition from multi-year tank mode to immediately building around your newly drafted Superstar, much like we did in 1989. Devin and Keldon are really the only assets we'll have (assuming Sochan is untouchable) along side the bevvy of draft picks we'll have accumulated (and perhaps even more if we do some deals around the deadline).

I'd hope we'd be able to do SOMETHING with those trade pieces, but maybe we don't need to move Devin or Keldon at all and could just use the draft picks for the kind of deal that ATL did for DJM or CLE did for Mitchell. But I don't want to see us land Wemby and then have two more years of top-5 picks... that's just going to result in Wemby being developed in a losing atmosphere that could lead him to want out. The 1989 model is the way to go. If Wemby is our DRob, Sochan can be our Sean and another one of our young guys can be our Willie. Bring in vets to surround that young core, don't just amass a team of young, talented but clueless prospects.

I really don't undersatnd y'alls valuation of our current players. Right now none is a star, that much is abundantly clear. I think Sochan possibly has start potential, but its a long shot. I think between he Vassel and Keldon, we have multiple future all star appearances in the cards. It's not a sure thing ,but I think its more likely than not. Perhaps they would lack a true second star, but if you add Wemby (if he's truly a Drob, Shaq, Duncan etc caliber player) then we're immediately on the edge of the lottery and an acquisition away from being a true contender with those very players. I don't think you guys realize how much a difference maker a true number one would be. We would need to add depth, but with a true number one and some time to develop our young dudes, there's no way they're picking in the top 5 again. Just no fucking way. Barring a huge lottery move that is. But finishing with a bottom 5 record? Nope.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 03:40 PM

This is a good thought exercise. I could be misremembering how hyped up Durant was coming into the league, but I don't recall him being touted as much as Wemby. I certainly don't recall him being hyped as this generational/can't miss talent the way LeBron, Timmy were. The Sonics regressed big time Durant's rookie year (going from Bob Hill lol to PJ), but man their roster was really bleak. However... was it any more bleak than this Spurs roster? That's a good question that might require some hard to swallow pills. They were also on the Sam Presti plan, so one must question how much will to improve that franchise had.

I mean no one has been as hyped as LeBron but Durant was pretty universally regarded as a franchise talent who only went #2 because Oden was the most hyped prospect since LeBron and the most hyped bigman since Kareem or Sampson.

heyheymymy

02-03-2023, 03:42 PM

What if Spurs have a deal in place but the other team requests to wait for a deadline transaction to limit their own competition from responding to the late move?

spurraider21

02-03-2023, 03:45 PM

I mean no one has been as hyped as LeBron but Durant was pretty universally regarded as a franchise talent who only went #2 because Oden was the most hyped prospect since LeBron and the most hyped bigman since Kareem or Sampson.
yeah if you looked up #1 overall picks around that time, other than his own draft, you're looking at the lebron and probably Yao drafts where he would NOT have gone #1 overall. but he was easily a better prospect than like, K-mart, Kwame, Dwight, Bogut, Bargnani, Rose, Griffin, Wall... would have been the consensus #1 any until what, maybe Anthony Davis?

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 03:50 PM

scott

02-03-2023, 03:51 PM

I really don't undersatnd y'alls valuation of our current players. Right now none is a star, that much is abundantly clear. I think Sochan possibly has start potential, but its a long shot. I think between he Vassel and Keldon, we have multiple future all star appearances in the cards. It's not a sure thing ,but I think its more likely than not. Perhaps they would lack a true second star, but if you add Wemby (if he's truly a Drob, Shaq, Duncan etc caliber player) then we're immediately on the edge of the lottery and an acquisition away from being a true contender with those very players. I don't think you guys realize how much a difference maker a true number one would be. We would need to add depth, but with a true number one and some time to develop our young dudes, there's no way they're picking in the top 5 again. Just no fucking way. Barring a huge lottery move that is. But finishing with a bottom 5 record? Nope.

You're on record on saying you believe will be an all-star, and my opinion is that there is close to a zero chance of that ever happening. He's a good 3rd or 4th player on a team, not even a legit #2 on a good team, and you have to be a really good team to send multiple all-stars. There is still hope for Devin, but Keldon ain't gonna be an all-star.

Russ

02-03-2023, 03:53 PM

exstatic

02-03-2023, 03:53 PM

What if Spurs have a deal in place but the other team requests to wait for a deadline transaction to limit their own competition from responding to the late move?

Oh, I think that happens WAY more than people know. It’s just a good business practice, don’t give your competition a chance to react.

Kyrie may be throwing a wrench into that, though. I think if BKN gets a good offer, they’ll pull the trigger immediately. They’re in a horrible position, and can’t afford to dick around. That domino falling could start an avalanche.

scott

02-03-2023, 03:54 PM

scott

02-03-2023, 03:57 PM

1621608256014540800

Hmmmmm

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 03:59 PM

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 03:59 PM

At the very least, this would put us in the running for the worst overall record! No one to bring the ball up, no big man depth. All in for 14%! :)

I mean we are in that running anyways right lol? Losing Doug/Josh/Zach no big deal IMO. Tre would hurt but could maybe sign a vet PG or give keys to Blake rest of the way. But it keeps core together and lands SA another massive 1st round pick potentially.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:01 PM

Spurs give up two good young players for a single draft pick? Do you work for ESPN?

Doug and Josh combined likely at best net you a lottery protected first value wise. Tre on his own MAYBE a lottery protected first. Collins? A 2nd. Yes I would trade 2 lottery protected firsts and a 2nd round pick while clearing 15M off the books for an unprotected first with an aging LeBron.

Russ

02-03-2023, 04:01 PM

At the very least, this would put us in the running for the worst overall record!

On the other hand, since the new lottery format, the team with the worst overall record has never once got the No. 1 pick.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:01 PM

Spurs give up two good young players for a single draft pick? Do you work for ESPN?

:lol. man, I hope that’s a joke. Doug is 30, and Josh is 28. NOT young.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:01 PM

1621608256014540800

Hmmmmm

DPG > Shams :lol

1621597904677871619

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:02 PM

On the other hand, since the new lottery format, the team with the worst overall record has never once got the No. 1 pick.

But being the worst record means you can only fall to pick 5 at worst, instead of having 3rd worst record where you can fall to 7 for example.

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 04:02 PM

:lol. man, I hope that’s a joke. Doug is 30, and Josh is 28. NOT young.

Tre Jones. Zach Collins.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:03 PM

Tre Jones. Zach Collins.

Yes - but they aren’t true parts of the core IMO. They are replaceable players IMO that are able to be had via FA or draft.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:05 PM

But being the worst record means you can only fall to pick 5 at worst, instead of having 3rd worst record where you can fall to 7 for example.

There’s no difference in the talent available at 5 or at 7.

Russ

02-03-2023, 04:07 PM

But being the worst record means you can only fall to pick 5 at worst, instead of having 3rd worst record where you can fall to 7 for example.

Good point.

But the way the Spurs FO evaluates talent, the guy they would take after Wemby might be the consensus No. 2 pick or might be the No. 10 pick.

The difference between 5 and 7 might (but likely won't) make a difference.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 04:08 PM

There’s no difference in the talent available at 5 or at 7.

I'd still rather be at 5 than 7..even if talent is equal you can prioritize fit..

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:08 PM

Tre Jones. Zach Collins.

Gotcha. A second rounder and a scrap heap reclamation. I’m more worried about trading 4 players for 0 after you cut Russ.

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 04:08 PM

Yes - but they aren’t true parts of the core IMO. They are replaceable players IMO that are able to be had via FA or draft.

I didn't realize you were shipping out Doug McDermott and Josh Richardson, too, all of them for a single pick. That's amazing.

The other point -- you should think of this in terms of opportunity cost. Jones and Collins aren't world-beaters, but they are good, developing players. What will it cost you to replace them with similar players? More than you think. You have to think of movements and trades not like you're in a video game where the abstraction of picks is all that matters. It's like trading Poeltl, if on a smaller scale. If you trade Poeltl, how do you replace Poeltl? What does that cost you?

scott

02-03-2023, 04:09 PM

Now that we are a bottom 3 team, I really don't like the flattened lottery odds :lol

Loved 'em when we were always picking 29 or 30.

cjw

02-03-2023, 04:10 PM

Fake Trade:

Lakers Get: Kyrie + Josh Richardson

BKY Gets: Doug + Tre + Zach + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

SA Gets: Westbrook (whom they waive so he can sign with a contender) + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

My thoughts: If LA is really trying to win, and willing to give up 2 firsts this gets them more than just Kyrie in Josh Richardson to help with depth. BKY doesn’t lose Kyrie for a nothing player, gets 3 solid rotation pieces to help now and shaves their 100M tax bill in half while still getting a great pick as well.

SA loses only Tre from the “young” core, keeps rest of core including Jak for another deal/to re-sign and while they maybe should get more than one first for giving up Doug/Zach/Tre/Saving BKY a ton of money, they get the best possible one pick so quality over quantity.

The trade literally cannot happen without either (1) the Spurs participating, (2) the Nets being okay keeping Westbrook (may piss off KD in process to strip assets away) or (3) parlaying Westbrook to a third team for a more useful, albeit bad contract that extends beyond this year.

One first while giving up several useful pieces, plus renting out the only cap space in the league, isn’t adequate compensation. The Spurs have $27 million in space, and only one other team has more than a million (Indiana at $9 million).

Screw the Lakers. I would much rather trade Poeltl, McD, Tre, Richardson in one or more separate trades. Their combined value plus the cap space available is worth more than one first. Like they showed last trade deadline, the Spurs can string together multiple deals.

If the Lakers want the Spurs’ help, there has to be pick swaps in addition to one unprotected first. Otherwise, they’re stuck with Westbrook.

And if people are worried about losing Poeltl and Richardson for nothing in FA, Poeltl for one will almost certainly command a premium deal and need the Spurs to facilitate a sign and trade.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:14 PM

Now that we are a bottom 3 team, I really don't like the flattened lottery odds :lol

Loved 'em when we were always picking 29 or 30.

It’s a better system, even though it might bite us in the ass. It was designed so that no other team would ever go through The Process for five years, and they won’t. There’s no incentive to, at 14%. It was terrible for their fans, and a black eye for the league.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:16 PM

There’s no difference in the talent available at 5 or at 7.

Disagree and I bet from a trade value teams disagree. Getting who you want FOR sure vs having to hope for a player to fall 2 spots is big IMO

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:17 PM

Good point.

But the way the Spurs FO evaluates talent, the guy they would take after Wemby might be the consensus No. 2 pick or might be the No. 10 pick.

The difference between 5 and 7 might (but likely won't) make a difference.

It will in trades. Hypothetical: let’s say SA gets pick 5 and DET gets pick 2. They already have Cade and maybe they listen to Keldon + pick 5 + future first for Scoot? Would they do that for pick 7 instead?

Maybe small chances, but in a rebuild like this it all matters. Every bit of value.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:18 PM

I didn't realize you were shipping out Doug McDermott and Josh Richardson, too, all of them for a single pick. That's amazing.

The other point -- you should think of this in terms of opportunity cost. Jones and Collins aren't world-beaters, but they are good, developing players. What will it cost you to replace them with similar players? More than you think. You have to think of movements and trades not like you're in a video game where the abstraction of picks is all that matters. It's like trading Poeltl, if on a smaller scale. If you trade Poeltl, how do you replace Poeltl? What does that cost you?

Don’t need to worry about fringe rotational guys in a rebuild as much. Spurs would have tons of cap space and can use what they were paying Doug (15M) to replace Tre and still be net even on money for example

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:20 PM

The trade literally cannot happen without either (1) the Spurs participating, (2) the Nets being okay keeping Westbrook (may piss off KD in process to strip assets away) or (3) parlaying Westbrook to a third team for a more useful, albeit bad contract that extends beyond this year.

One first while giving up several useful pieces, plus renting out the only cap space in the league, isn’t adequate compensation. The Spurs have $27 million in space, and only one other team has more than a million (Indiana at $9 million).

Screw the Lakers. I would much rather trade Poeltl, McD, Tre, Richardson in one or more separate trades. Their combined value plus the cap space available is worth more than one first. Like they showed last trade deadline, the Spurs can string together multiple deals.

If the Lakers want the Spurs’ help, there has to be pick swaps in addition to one unprotected first. Otherwise, they’re stuck with Westbrook.

And if people are worried about losing Poeltl and Richardson for nothing in FA, Poeltl for one will almost certainly command a premium deal and need the Spurs to facilitate a sign and trade.

Don’t understand your first point. This is a hypothetical where Spurs are in and making it work for the other teams.

To your other point: I get what you are saying and it’s valid. I personally think quality over quantity matters and I would rather have 1 unprotected first while taking on zero money next year than say breaking it up into 3 separate deals and getting 3 lottery protected firsts for example.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:22 PM

Disagree and I bet from a trade value teams disagree. Getting who you want FOR sure vs having to hope for a player to fall 2 spots is big IMO

I’m not talking specific players, just level of talent. The Spurs don’t lock in on a player, anyway. They just pick from their board of 60 players whoever is the highest eval left.

The draft has been judged by analysts, multiple, to be pretty flat from 3-14 or 15. That’s either good, you’re getting high lottery value at 14 or 15, or bad, you’re getting late lottery talent starting at 3.

KingKev

02-03-2023, 04:27 PM

Kanye Irving…

Our cap could really grease the wheels in this drama

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:28 PM

I’m not talking specific players, just level of talent. The Spurs don’t lock in on a player, anyway. They just pick from their board of 60 players whoever is the highest eval left.

The draft has been judged by analysts, multiple, to be pretty flat from 3-14 or 15. That’s either good, you’re getting high lottery value at 14 or 15, or bad, you’re getting late lottery talent starting at 3.

But talent for SA isn’t only consideration. Trade value, etc..all matters even if its material. It’s why you don’t see a ton of trading back that close. It happens, but not that often

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:28 PM

Kanye Irving…

Our cap could really grease the wheels in this drama

You like my trade proposal?

CGD

02-03-2023, 04:32 PM

Time to dust off those ole 3 way trade proposals from earlier this year...

Dverde

02-03-2023, 04:36 PM

Hardaway Jr, Bert, FRP for Kyrie? Even if Kyrie is a disaster, the Mavericks would get off those two bad contracts for only a FRP. More of a move for the Nets to rebuild and trade KD. I don’t see KD wanting to stay beyond this season and will force his way out.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:36 PM

Kanye Irving…

Our cap could really grease the wheels in this drama

I had forgotten that Indy helped us two ways: by taking a quality center off the market, and using their cap room,our only competition in that department, to do so.

KingKev

02-03-2023, 04:37 PM

You like my trade proposal?

I’d rather not help the Lakers that way tbh.

cjw

02-03-2023, 04:44 PM

Don’t understand your first point. This is a hypothetical where Spurs are in and making it work for the other teams.

To your other point: I get what you are saying and it’s valid. I personally think quality over quantity matters and I would rather have 1 unprotected first while taking on zero money next year than say breaking it up into 3 separate deals and getting 3 lottery protected firsts for example.

All your eggs in one basket for a 2027 pick that could theoretically be in the 20s? Say Lebron leaves in 2025, and they have a clean slate. They could easily retool in FA (it’s LA after all) and you’re picking outside the lottery. They have zero incentive to tank.

On the first point, how many paths are there to a Kyrie-to-Lakers deal that do not involve the Spurs? The Spurs’ cap room is the most valuable commodities in the deadline as it’s scarce. The Nets don’t want Westbrook back, as it kills any chances this year. So if they want a team to dump him on, there are very few that work. And the Spurs, meanwhile, can bid up the value for their space.

When only one team (well: two with Indiana) has space, it’s extremely valuable at the deadline or right before free agency. You can bet PATFO want more than one first out of this trade season. It may not happen , but they’re aiming higher.

The only thing working against space is that teams can aggregate trades together - waiting to put them into league office - and make the 125% of outgoing value into much bigger numbers.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 04:48 PM

I’d rather not help the Lakers that way tbh.

I kinda feel that way too... I'm not saying I wouldn't do a deal with them but, I'd want the farm to help them...not just 1 pick

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:55 PM

I’d rather not help the Lakers that way tbh.

You think the lakers are going to win it all due to Josh? I would say robbing the lakers of a top 3 pick when LeBron is long gone potentially is helping sA.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 04:56 PM

All your eggs in one basket for a 2027 pick that could theoretically be in the 20s? Say Lebron leaves in 2025, and they have a clean slate. They could easily retool in FA (it’s LA after all) and you’re picking outside the lottery. They have zero incentive to tank.

On the first point, how many paths are there to a Kyrie-to-Lakers deal that do not involve the Spurs? The Spurs’ cap room is the most valuable commodities in the deadline as it’s scarce. The Nets don’t want Westbrook back, as it kills any chances this year. So if they want a team to dump him on, there are very few that work. And the Spurs, meanwhile, can bid up the value for their space.

When only one team (well: two with Indiana) has space, it’s extremely valuable at the deadline or right before free agency. You can bet PATFO want more than one first out of this trade season. It may not happen , but they’re aiming higher.

The only thing working against space is that teams can aggregate trades together - waiting to put them into league office - and make the 125% of outgoing value into much bigger numbers.

All your eggs? It’s a guaranteed first and we lose who that is hard to replace or meaningful for wins?

The path for Kyrie to LA with no Spurs is easy. Literally Russ for Kyrie.

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 04:56 PM

All your eggs in one basket for a 2027 pick that could theoretically be in the 20s? Say Lebron leaves in 2025, and they have a clean slate. They could easily retool in FA (it’s LA after all) and you’re picking outside the lottery. They have zero incentive to tank.

On the first point, how many paths are there to a Kyrie-to-Lakers deal that do not involve the Spurs? The Spurs’ cap room is the most valuable commodities in the deadline as it’s scarce. The Nets don’t want Westbrook back, as it kills any chances this year. So if they want a team to dump him on, there are very few that work. And the Spurs, meanwhile, can bid up the value for their space.

When only one team (well: two with Indiana) has space, it’s extremely valuable at the deadline or right before free agency. You can bet PATFO want more than one first out of this trade season. It may not happen , but they’re aiming higher.

The only thing working against space is that teams can aggregate trades together - waiting to put them into league office - and make the 125% of outgoing value into much bigger numbers.

Yeah, I figure you'll have Giannis or Doncic on the Lakers by the second half of the decade, along those lines. Those FRPs aren't that appealing.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 04:57 PM

All your eggs in one basket for a 2027 pick that could theoretically be in the 20s? Say Lebron leaves in 2025, and they have a clean slate. They could easily retool in FA (it’s LA after all) and you’re picking outside the lottery. They have zero incentive to tank.

On the first point, how many paths are there to a Kyrie-to-Lakers deal that do not involve the Spurs? The Spurs’ cap room is the most valuable commodities in the deadline as it’s scarce. The Nets don’t want Westbrook back, as it kills any chances this year. So if they want a team to dump him on, there are very few that work. And the Spurs, meanwhile, can bid up the value for their space.

When only one team (well: two with Indiana) has space, it’s extremely valuable at the deadline or right before free agency. You can bet PATFO want more than one first out of this trade season. It may not happen , but they’re aiming higher.

The only thing working against space is that teams can aggregate trades together - waiting to put them into league office - and make the 125% of outgoing value into much bigger numbers.

Indiana gave their space to Myles Turner for his extension. We’re the only game in town for big cap space.

Ariel

02-03-2023, 05:00 PM

Fake Trade:

Lakers Get: Kyrie + Josh Richardson

BKY Gets: Doug + Tre + Zach + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

SA Gets: Westbrook (whom they waive so he can sign with a contender) + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

My thoughts: If LA is really trying to win, and willing to give up 2 firsts this gets them more than just Kyrie in Josh Richardson to help with depth. BKY doesn’t lose Kyrie for a nothing player, gets 3 solid rotation pieces to help now and shaves their 100M tax bill in half while still getting a great pick as well.

SA loses only Tre from the “young” core, keeps rest of core including Jak for another deal/to re-sign and while they maybe should get more than one first for giving up Doug/Zach/Tre/Saving BKY a ton of money, they get the best possible one pick so quality over quantity.
Richardson & McDermott for Westbrook + an unprotected pick seems ok. But why add Tre & Zach? I'd say chances are not high that you can get a better player than Tre even with a better 2nd rounder than what was used for him (#41 I believe). I'd expect him to command ideally a couple good 2nds, at the very least one. As for Zach, he's on a cheap contract with low guaranteed money, he's a useful guy for some team. You don't need to put together a winning team for the young core to develop, but you can't rid yourself of every single guy with some experience, and they're not costing us lottery odds, so why get rid of them? It's a total tear down, I'm not totally opposed on paper if the price is too good, but I'm not sold this is the case here.

exstatic

02-03-2023, 05:01 PM

Yeah, I figure you'll have Giannis or Doncic on the Lakers by the second half of the decade, along those lines. Those FRPs aren't that appealing.

The Lakers signed Shaq in 1996, and LeBron in 2018. That’s it. Two big fish in 27 years. The trope that the Lakers sign any top FA they want is a myth. Lots of ring chaser complementary players, but only two big fish.

cjw

02-03-2023, 05:01 PM

All your eggs? It’s a guaranteed first and we lose who that is hard to replace or meaningful for wins?

The path for Kyrie to LA with no Spurs is easy. Literally Russ for Kyrie.

The Nets would rather have Kyrie stay home than have to absorb Russ for Kyrie. They aren’t doing the deal without jettisoning Kyrie to a third team. Very few teams can make that work.

Agree that you’re not giving anyone away that is irreplaceable or in the team’s future plans. You aren’t losing Poeltl in the deal. What I’m saying is I think you can get a lot more than you think using that space to help multiple teams, along with relatively affordable vets that can contribute. Tre Jones, for one, could be a valuable backup PG for a contending team that lacks one (New Orleans?).

I’m only making that move with the Lakers and Nets if I can’t figure anything else out. It’s not a terrible outcome and could be a great asset eventually coming back. But I’d want to do better.

cjw

02-03-2023, 05:03 PM

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 05:08 PM

Richardson & McDermott for Westbrook + an unprotected pick seems ok. But why add Tre & Zach? I'd say chances are not high that you can get a better player than Tre even with a better 2nd rounder than what was used for him (#41 I believe). I'd expect him to command ideally a couple good 2nds, at the very least one. As for Zach, he's on a cheap contract with low guaranteed money, he's a useful guy for some team. You don't need to put together a winning team for the young core to develop, but you can't rid yourself of every single guy with some experience, and they're not costing us lottery odds, so why get rid of them? It's a total tear down, I'm not totally opposed on paper if the price is too good, but I'm not sold this is the case here.

Because I don’t think Josh + McDermott fetch an unprotected first. You may not value that unprotected portion much, but I think it’s incredibly valuable and worth 2-3 lottery protected firsts given the circumstances (but I can see why some would disagree).

We are though a lot of the season already…those guys have served their purpose and SA would now replace them in off season using the money they would have paid to Doug anyways (15M) while keeping cap the same

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 05:09 PM

The Nets would rather have Kyrie stay home than have to absorb Russ for Kyrie. They aren’t doing the deal without jettisoning Kyrie to a third team. Very few teams can make that work.

Agree that you’re not giving anyone away that is irreplaceable or in the team’s future plans. You aren’t losing Poeltl in the deal. What I’m saying is I think you can get a lot more than you think using that space to help multiple teams, along with relatively affordable vets that can contribute. Tre Jones, for one, could be a valuable backup PG for a contending team that lacks one (New Orleans?).

I’m only making that move with the Lakers and Nets if I can’t figure anything else out. It’s not a terrible outcome and could be a great asset eventually coming back. But I’d want to do better.

I get that…it’s definitely debatable. I’m just thirsty for an unprotected pick from LA seeing how trash they were for 6 years before LeBron bailed them out…

KobesAchilles

02-03-2023, 05:12 PM

We getting Kyrie boys? Dude would launch us to contention once we draft Wemby. And don’t say shit about his drama bc we are starting Tre ffs

spurraider21

02-03-2023, 05:13 PM

Spurs give up two good young players for a single draft pick? Do you work for ESPN?
2 solid young players + 2 established vets who have independent value (josh more than doug right now, though doug can probably be moved next offseason as an expiring).

its a lot to give up for 1 pick + eating westbrook imho

heyheymymy

02-03-2023, 05:14 PM

WB has to bring a FRP alone just for the burden of his contract, the favor of furnishing financial space.

Then to get someone like JR I mean obvs debatable but cmon, for that I want another FRP, protected if you must. Doug maybe just a 2RP but I'd love to see someone bite with a FRP though Doug's value might be better next season in expiring. And Tre and Zach are more than just filler, not sure what they command but I'm not just handing them away so easily here.

I like where your mind is at but this gives too much away imo though maybe that's more realistic of the market/PATFO considerations currently than we know.

spurraider21

02-03-2023, 05:14 PM

Because I don’t think Josh + McDermott fetch an unprotected first. You may not value that unprotected portion much, but I think it’s incredibly valuable and worth 2-3 lottery protected firsts given the circumstances (but I can see why some would disagree).

We are though a lot of the season already…those guys have served their purpose and SA would now replace them in off season using the money they would have paid to Doug anyways (15M) while keeping cap the same
spurs are already set to go into this offseason with something in the ball park of 75 mil in cap space. im not so worried about clearing up more cap room on a young rebuilding team. even if you give poeltl a market level deal you are still sitting at probably 55 mil in space to fill the roster. and its not like you are trying to sign overpriced vets to fill the linings of a championship contender

now if that unprotected first ends up being something like a top 5-6 pick... yeah it probably is worth those guys. but those laker picks are far out enough into the future where its still a lot to give up for just one pick

Spurs Homer

02-03-2023, 05:17 PM

The Lakers signed Shaq in 1996, and LeBron in 2018. That’s it. Two big fish in 27 years. The trope that the Lakers sign any top FA they want is a myth. Lots of ring chaser complementary players, but only two big fish.

pretty sure they have gotten some other fish they didnt deserve…like maybe

kobe refusing to play for team that drafted him for a laker spot
unibrow (altho a fucking bonafide china doll- pretty sure he was a big fish when betraying the pels to go to l.a.)
kawhi betraying the spurs for l.a. and altho he ended up on clippers - the lakers tampered like a muthafucker to pry him outnof s.a.
karl malone and gary payton ring chasing

kareem from milwaukee
wilt from philly

im sure im forgetting a few dozen others that l.a. had no legit right to- but nabbed them anyways

CGD

02-03-2023, 05:18 PM

Richardson & McDermott for Westbrook + an unprotected pick seems ok. But why add Tre & Zach? I'd say chances are not high that you can get a better player than Tre even with a better 2nd rounder than what was used for him (#41 I believe). I'd expect him to command ideally a couple good 2nds, at the very least one. As for Zach, he's on a cheap contract with low guaranteed money, he's a useful guy for some team. You don't need to put together a winning team for the young core to develop, but you can't rid yourself of every single guy with some experience, and they're not costing us lottery odds, so why get rid of them? It's a total tear down, I'm not totally opposed on paper if the price is too good, but I'm not sold this is the case here.

I agree, dont see the need to include Tre or Collins. I do this deal though:

BKN: Jak, Doug, Rich
LAL: Irving
SAS: Brick 27FRP + 28SWAP + 29FRP

*I'd use that stupid CHA pick strategically to get this over the finish line if needed.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 05:19 PM

spurs are already set to go into this offseason with something in the ball park of 75 mil in cap space. im not so worried about clearing up more cap room on a young rebuilding team. even if you give poeltl a market level deal you are still sitting at probably 55 mil in space to fill the roster. and its not like you are trying to sign overpriced vets to fill the linings of a championship contender

now if that unprotected first ends up being something like a top 5-6 pick... yeah it probably is worth those guys. but those laker picks are far out enough into the future where its still a lot to give up for just one pick

I get it but it’s not a lot to give up IMO. They arent stars nor hard to replace. It’s just seemingly “a lot” because of the volume especially when we know Josh for sure is walking anyways next year.

The cap space point if fair, but like I said I think its more about being able to replace Doug/Josh with Dougs money anyways so you really arent “trading” them. If you can get 2 new Doug/Josh’s for just Dougs money, then you functionally only traded Zach + Tre for that pick right? Does not have to be literally Doug and Josh in those spots for mentorship.

It’s like trading 2 players in fantasy football for one stud (the Lakers pick) knowing you can get a guy off of waivers that does everything the guys you traded do.

heyheymymy

02-03-2023, 05:25 PM

Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown lol

Yeah Javaris Crittenton really levels that trade out talent wise

FTL

k830713

02-03-2023, 05:25 PM

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/spurs/trades/UUMOgURw9Bxb_p/big-trade

heyheymymy

02-03-2023, 05:27 PM

Oh the qualifier there was FA to LAL specifically and yeah all facts but you don't really need FAs when you're pulling heist trades like that Gasol deal

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 05:28 PM

I get it but it’s not a lot to give up IMO. They arent stars nor hard to replace. It’s just seemingly “a lot” because of the volume especially when we know Josh for sure is walking anyways next year.

The cap space point if fair, but like I said I think its more about being able to replace Doug/Josh with Dougs money anyways so you really arent “trading” them. If you can get 2 new Doug/Josh’s for just Dougs money, then you functionally only traded Zach + Tre for that pick right? Does not have to be literally Doug and Josh in those spots for mentorship.

It’s like trading 2 players in fantasy football for one stud (the Lakers pick) knowing you can get a guy off of waivers that does everything the guys you traded do.

Let me frame it this way - would you do this trade:’

Outgoing: Doug + Josh + Zach + Tre

Incoming: Lakers unprotected 1st + JyMchal Green + Austin Rivers

spurraider21

02-03-2023, 05:33 PM

I get it but it’s not a lot to give up IMO. They arent stars nor hard to replace. It’s just seemingly “a lot” because of the volume especially when we know Josh for sure is walking anyways next year.
yeah im not necessarily concerned with the quantity. but these guys should have more individual value. Tre looks like a low end starter/high end backup pg. That has value. Zollins has rehabilitated his value quite a bit and looks like he will be quite the bargain at his salary next season. richardson probably has borderline first round pick value to a contender. and mcdermott may have comparable value to a contender next year. maybe 2 seconds. you are flipping all that for a single 1 and banking on the lakers being bad in something like 4 or 6 years from now. on top of doing them the solid of eating westbrook's contract to facilitate the deal, which itself has value.

The cap space point if fair, but like I said I think its more about being able to replace Doug/Josh with Dougs money anyways so you really arent “trading” them. If you can get 2 new Doug/Josh’s for just Dougs money, then you functionally only traded Zach + Tre for that pick right? Does not have to be literally Doug and Josh in those spots for mentorship.
because rather than using doug's money to sign another doug, i'd rather squeeze a pick out of doug

The Truth #6

02-03-2023, 05:38 PM

This is actually really good news for the Spurs... the kind of news they needed with the market kind of fizzling out. Spurs are the only team left who can facilitate such a trade.

Cap Space storage units have immediate availability, come on down to rent yours today.

Hard to say, but things could implode quickly in Brooklyn, where KD now wants out also, and then everything really might open up.

CGD

02-03-2023, 05:39 PM

Let me frame it this way - would you do this trade:’

Outgoing: Doug + Josh + Zach + Tre

Incoming: Lakers unprotected 1st + JyMchal Green + Austin Rivers

You forgot the most important part of your framework, which is eating Bricks deal. That alone is worth the pick.

The Truth #6

02-03-2023, 05:50 PM

Kyrie in LA will bring a shit ton of bad press from the LA Jewish community. That will be interesting to see how that plays out. Probably lots of PR nonsense to smooth things over.

baseline bum

02-03-2023, 05:53 PM

The Lakers signed Shaq in 1996, and LeBron in 2018. That’s it. Two big fish in 27 years. The trope that the Lakers sign any top FA they want is a myth. Lots of ring chaser complementary players, but only two big fish.

But they have had a ton of top talent force trades there. Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Bryant, Howard, Davis for example.

cjw

02-03-2023, 05:54 PM

Let me frame it this way - would you do this trade:’

Outgoing: Doug + Josh + Zach + Tre

Incoming: Lakers unprotected 1st + JyMchal Green + Austin Rivers

In a vacuum sure

But life doesn’t exist in a vacuum. There are 29 other teams that don’t have what the Spurs do - cap space. A trade that uses ALL OF IT alone is worth a FRP in this market. Let alone getting other assets back too

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:03 PM

yeah im not necessarily concerned with the quantity. but these guys should have more individual value. Tre looks like a low end starter/high end backup pg. That has value. Zollins has rehabilitated his value quite a bit and looks like he will be quite the bargain at his salary next season. richardson probably has borderline first round pick value to a contender. and mcdermott may have comparable value to a contender next year. maybe 2 seconds. you are flipping all that for a single 1 and banking on the lakers being bad in something like 4 or 6 years from now. on top of doing them the solid of eating westbrook's contract to facilitate the deal, which itself has value.

because rather than using doug's money to sign another doug, i'd rather squeeze a pick out of doug

I think if you break it down between the 4 players: if you did individual trades or different combos you could get at best: 2 lottery protected 1sts and 2 2nds. Do you agree? If you do agree, what do you value more: 2 lottery protected firsts + 2 2nds or 1 fully unprotected 1st?

I can see both arguments but I personally value the unprotected first. Even a shot 25% shot at a top 3 pick is massive vs knowing at best you get 2 pick 15s + 2 2nds.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:04 PM

You forgot the most important part of your framework, which is eating Bricks deal. That alone is worth the pick.

It adds no money to SA truly beyond what they are paying anyways. They are sending out Doug/Zach/Tre/Josh and are under the floor. Not only that, they actually get off of Dougs money too which while not “important” is a win.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:05 PM

In a vacuum sure

But life doesn’t exist in a vacuum. There are 29 other teams that don’t have what the Spurs do - cap space. A trade that uses ALL OF IT alone is worth a FRP in this market. Let alone getting other assets back too

No - 29 other teams DO NOT have cap space.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:10 PM

And don’t get overly fixated on every single thing lol - it’s just a general framework not exact obviously. Spurs may be able to get it done with keeping Collins out or whatever. Or maybe get a 2nd round pick too etc…

Just a general framework/thought process from me….and like a “worst case” in terms of what SA would have to send out to get it done if it’s even possible. I wouldn’t mind it since like I said, SA would be able to sign 2 new players in off season to replace say Zach and Josh for example so its net losing only Zach/Tre since we know we can replace Josh/Doug quite easily IMO

CGD

02-03-2023, 06:12 PM

It adds no money to SA truly beyond what they are paying anyways. They are sending out Doug/Zach/Tre/Josh and are under the floor. Not only that, they actually get off of Dougs money too which while not “important” is a win.

I get that, but this is about extracting as much as possible because we are NEEDED for this deal to work. With all that stuff going out, there needs to be more that a 27FRP and trash coming back.

I like my variant:

LAL: Irving
BKN: Jak, Rich, Doug
SAS: brick + 27 + 28swap + 29

mo7888

02-03-2023, 06:13 PM

I agree, dont see the need to include Tre or Collins. I do this deal though:

BKN: Jak, Doug, Rich
LAL: Irving
SAS: Brick 27FRP + 28SWAP + 29FRP

*I'd use that stupid CHA pick strategically to get this over the finish line if needed.

Yup....that's the framework..

JeffDuncan

02-03-2023, 06:15 PM

No - 29 other teams DO NOT have cap space.

That’s what he just wrote. You agreed with him in all caps.

The mistake you’re making is in thinking the Spurs would get involved in this situation to trade their own players. That isn’t it.

CGD

02-03-2023, 06:16 PM

Yup....that's the framework..

If my math is right, this leaves enough cap space to absorb trash from the Suns for a FRP if they’re looking for tax help

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:17 PM

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:18 PM

That’s what he just wrote. You agreed with him in all caps.

The mistake you’re making is in thinking the Spurs would get involved in this situation to trade their own players. That isn’t it.

Ya - misread what he said on cap space. Don’t understand your point about SA getting involved with their players.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 06:20 PM

If my math is right, this leaves enough cap space to absorb trash from the Suns for a FRP if they’re looking for tax help

It does..

CGD

02-03-2023, 06:20 PM

I’m not sure BKY does Jak for an unprotected first but I am totally fine with that deal. Not sure LA is…

We arent needed. They can easily send WB + 2 picks to BKY and cut us out if BKY values picks over getting some players now.

To clarify all the picks are coming from LAL. On your last point, that’s the issue, they can’t just value distant picks. They need players for their push. They’re still up their in the standings

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:35 PM

To clarify all the picks are coming from LAL. On your last point, that’s the issue, they can’t just value distant picks. They need players for their push. They’re still up their in the standings

We may think that but what if what they don’t value that? There may be a balance or tipping point where they go one way or other. Point is the absolutely don’t need Spurs and can use one of the picks to get players they like better than Doug/Richardson/Tre if they don’t care about saving money here..

Ariel

02-03-2023, 06:43 PM

I’m not sure BKY does Jak for an unprotected first but I am totally fine with that deal. Not sure LA is…

We arent needed. They can easily send WB + 2 picks to BKY and cut us out if BKY values picks over getting some players now.
We aren't needed if Brooklyn is willing to eat out Westbrook's salary. But that implies they're willing to add 10M more in salary, plus the tax implications of that, plus the fact that when Westbrook's deal expires they have nothing to show for that cap space. If Brooklyn is trying to contend now, they're better served sending Westbrook to a third team, and getting actual contributors instead. I don't think any of this will happen, however, mainly because the Lakers seem to be in an extremely speculative position, holding out for who knows what deal that meets their standards. That deal will eventually come, the question is whether that happens before LeBron finds himself in a retirement home.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:45 PM

We aren't needed if Brooklyn is willing to eat out Westbrook's salary. But that implies they're willing to add 10M more in salary, plus the tax implications of that, plus the fact that when Westbrook's deal expires they have nothing to show for that cap space. If Brooklyn is trying to contend now, they're better served sending Westbrook to a third team, and getting actual contributors instead. I don't think any of this will happen, however, mainly because the Lakers seem to be in an extremely speculative position, holding out for who knows what deal that meets their standards. That deal will eventually come, the question is it will be before LeBron in a retirement home.

Sure - I agree which is why I threw this together lol. But BKY may realize they cannot contend no matter what with Simmons being trash and now Kyrie out. But I agree that the type of deal I put together seems like a logical way to go to hedge and get best of both worlds.

CGD

02-03-2023, 06:47 PM

We aren't needed if Brooklyn is willing to eat out Westbrook's salary. But that implies they're willing to add 10M more in salary, plus the tax implications of that, plus the fact that when Westbrook's deal expires they have nothing to show for that cap space. If Brooklyn is trying to contend now, they're better served sending Westbrook to a third team, and getting actual contributors instead. I don't think any of this will happen, however, mainly because the Lakers seem to be in an extremely speculative position, holding out for who knows what deal that meets their standards. That deal will eventually come, the question is whether that happens before LeBron finds himself in a retirement home.

Yeah, good luck being the guy trying to sell an aging KD on that plan. I agree they’d want a 3rd team and players over picks.

The team that is lurking and has better players than our trio is the Jazz. I think I like Connolly, Beasley, Vanderbilt and/or Clarkson over what we have. That’s why I think the CHA pick could be useful.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 06:47 PM

Sure - I agree which is why I threw this together lol. But BKY may realize they cannot contend no matter what with Simmons being trash and now Kyrie out. But I agree that the type of deal I put together seems like a logical way to go to hedge and get best of both worlds.

If the conclude that they can't compete the trade market goes nuclear because they'll move KD.....

Ariel

02-03-2023, 06:51 PM

Brooklyn is a mess, there are so many ifs and buts that it's hard to put together any plausible deals on the table. Harden & Irving destroyed Brooklyn. It should serve as a cautionary tale: "if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas".

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:52 PM

If the conclude that they can't compete the trade market goes nuclear because they'll move KD.....

They have until off season for that, but definitely a possibility for sure.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 06:53 PM

Ariel

02-03-2023, 07:03 PM

We aren't needed if Brooklyn is willing to eat out Westbrook's salary. But that implies they're willing to add 10M more in salary, plus the tax implications of that
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1621658488668655616

A Russell Westbrook/Kyrie Irving straight swap (yes, it works because of the Irving trade bonus) would cost the Nets an additional $56M toward their already $109M luxury tax penalty.
1621658488668655616

mo7888

02-03-2023, 07:04 PM

Since we're throwing out trades...let's get Brooklyn off Simmons..

LA- Kyrie

Brooklyn- WB, McD, and Josh + LA 2029 1st

Spurs- Simmons, LA 2027 1st, and LA 2028 swap

Ariel

02-03-2023, 07:07 PM

Simmons has like 2 years 80M left on his contract, beyond this season. That's atrocious... plus, I wouldn't want Sochan anywhere Simmons, just in case he's contagious.

MultiTroll

02-03-2023, 07:10 PM

Since we're throwing out trades...let's get Brooklyn off Simmons..

LA- Kyrie

Brooklyn- WB, McD, and Josh + LA 2029 1st

Spurs- Simmons, LA 2027 1st, and LA 2028 swap
Per usual that would be an extremely lopsided deal in favor of the Stern Lakers.
:rollin
That's the best Brooklyn could do?

Hell NO we do not want Simmons. And thru 2025? No F way!

mo7888

02-03-2023, 07:11 PM

Simmons has like 2 years 80M left on his contract, beyond this season. That's atrocious... plus, I wouldn't want Sochan anywhere Simmons, just in case he's contagious.

I don't want him either but I'd take him for those two LA assets...and we'd still have Jak to move elsewhere ..

jjspur

02-03-2023, 07:31 PM

I'll bet that the spurs accountants would be having a stroke if they saw some these trades.

mo7888

02-03-2023, 08:08 PM

I'll bet that the spurs accountants would be having a stroke if they saw some these trades.

Hopefully they're busy evaluating several things on the table instead of the BS we're throwing around to pass the time until the deadline..

timtonymanu

02-03-2023, 08:09 PM

Can Kyrie just drop dead already, tbh?

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 08:45 PM

I'll bet that the spurs accountants would be having a stroke if they saw some these trades.

In my deal, Spurs arent even taking on more money by sending out Doug/Richardson/Collins/Tre and free up 15M next year too. But even if BKY wanted to save money and lets say take Collins out of the deal (would save BKY a ton in this scenario) - Spurs are under the floor and net money added would only be like 9M for this year which doesn’t matter at all

jjspur

02-03-2023, 10:52 PM

In my deal, Spurs arent even taking on more money by sending out Doug/Richardson/Collins/Tre and free up 15M next year too. But even if BKY wanted to save money and lets say take Collins out of the deal (would save BKY a ton in this scenario) - Spurs are under the floor and net money added would only be like 9M for this year which doesn’t matter at all

What ever saves another team money usually costs some team money. Net money added would only be like 9M for this year which doesn’t matter at all - really ? Someone will pony up that 9 million somehow, probably in the form of tax savings or more expensive parking or more expensive hot dogs for the next decade. Either way it represents real money.

All joking aside, the spurs have forked over a decent amount of dead money recently and even though they are under the minimum salary, throwing away more money just for a middling pick somewhere down the road, doesn't always make the most financial sense. This is the NBA though and not everything makes sense.

XDT76

02-03-2023, 10:56 PM

What ever saves another team money usually costs some team money. Net money added would only be like 9M for this year which doesn’t matter at all - really ? Someone will pony up that 9 million somehow, probably in the form of tax savings or more expensive parking or more expensive hot dogs for the next decade. Either way it represents real money.

All joking aside, the spurs have forked over a decent amount of dead money recently and even though they are under the minimum salary, throwing away more money just for a middling pick somewhere down the road, doesn't always make the most financial sense. This is the NBA though and not everything makes sense.

The reason he say 9M doesn't matter bcos we are below salary floor and those money needs to be spend regardlessly whether to spread among the players or otherwise.

JeffDuncan

02-03-2023, 11:16 PM

I'll bet that the spurs accountants would be having a stroke if they saw some these trades.

Nah, more like a laughing fit.

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 11:32 PM

What ever saves another team money usually costs some team money. Net money added would only be like 9M for this year which doesn’t matter at all - really ? Someone will pony up that 9 million somehow, probably in the form of tax savings or more expensive parking or more expensive hot dogs for the next decade. Either way it represents real money.

All joking aside, the spurs have forked over a decent amount of dead money recently and even though they are under the minimum salary, throwing away more money just for a middling pick somewhere down the road, doesn't always make the most financial sense. This is the NBA though and not everything makes sense.

Spurs pay money due to being under anyways. So whether it’s spread out to existing players or to a new player it’s the same money is all I’m saying. I’m not saying Spurs will take on 30M, but none-to a few? Ya I think they will do that especially up to whatever they are to get to the floor

Seventyniner

02-03-2023, 11:45 PM

The Nets potentially trying to save tax money is an interesting angle. They might take those savings over a pick, for example.

CGD

02-03-2023, 11:46 PM

Since we're throwing out trades...let's get Brooklyn off Simmons..

LA- Kyrie

Brooklyn- WB, McD, and Josh + LA 2029 1st

Spurs- Simmons, LA 2027 1st, and LA 2028 swap

The variant is send Ben to LA and Brick to us. We get both picks and the swap.

Mr. Body

02-03-2023, 11:50 PM

With Pacers giving a lot of money this year to Turner, it's basically just the Spurs that can facilitate trades with cap room, right? Or is Utah there?

DPG21920

02-03-2023, 11:52 PM

The Nets potentially trying to save tax money is an interesting angle. They might take those savings over a pick, for example.

Nets are 35M over the cap resulting in a whooping 108M in luxury tax bill. Re-routing Westbrook to SA while Kyrie goes out to LA and getting Doug/Collins/Tre to BKY would knock off nearly half of their luxury tax bill. It’s an insane amount they would get in savings while still getting a first and some solid players on friendly deals.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 12:01 AM

Like literally sending out 35M in Doug/Josh/Zach/Tre and getting 47M in Westbrook has SA right at the 111M floor +1M (I think) vs being at 99M currently. So it truly doesn’t cost them anything *shrugs* that they already aren't going to pay

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 12:03 AM

With Pacers giving a lot of money this year to Turner, it's basically just the Spurs that can facilitate trades with cap room, right? Or is Utah there?

Spurs are the only team with more than 9M in cap space which belongs to INDY. Utah has none - no other team has functional cap space either.

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 12:18 AM

The Nets potentially trying to save tax money is an interesting angle. …

Indeed.

The Nets are over the luxury tax threshold by $34.8 M. Their estimated luxury tax bill is $108 M.

I wonder how that looks to Nets owner Tsai with the Nets season turning into crap. Again.

Kyrie’s contract has a cap figure of $37 M.

Now, just suppose…. The Nets do decide they want to move Kyrie, also Kyrie wants to go to the Fakers, and the Fakers want him.

But the Fakers have to move WB to make it happen, and sadly, the Nets do not want WB. It’s a problem. No direct deal is possible.

But if only there was a team around that had the cap space to take WB, and facilitate the transaction.

The Spurs are $53.5 M below the luxury tax threshold. WB’s contract has a cap figure of $47 M.

All very interesting.

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 12:22 AM

With Pacers giving a lot of money this year to Turner, it's basically just the Spurs that can facilitate trades with cap room, right? Or is Utah there?

Utah is showing only $7 M of space below the luxury tax at this time according to spotrac.

JPB

02-04-2023, 12:41 AM

Indeed.

The Nets are over the luxury tax threshold by $34.8 M. Their estimated luxury tax bill is $108 M.

I wonder how that looks to Nets owner Tsai with the Nets season turning into crap. Again.

Kyrie’s contract has a cap figure of $37 M.

Now, just suppose…. The Nets do decide they want to move Kyrie, also Kyrie wants to go to the Fakers, and the Fakers want him.

But the Fakers have to move WB to make it happen, and sadly, the Nets do not want WB. It’s a problem. No direct deal is possible.

But if only there was a team around that had the cap space to take WB, and facilitate the transaction.

The Spurs are $53.5 M below the luxury tax threshold. WB’s contract has a cap figure of $47 M.

All very interesting.

Yeah, but what do spurs get?

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 01:04 AM

Yeah, but what do spurs get?

They get an unprotected Lakers 1st

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 01:06 AM

Then you're paying $47 million for a pick? That's ungodly.

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 01:09 AM

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 01:12 AM

Yeah, but what do spurs get?

Draft picks. From both Fakers and Nets. They would both owe us.

And if both teams wanted to send some cash our way to help buy out WB, that would be welcome, too. We wouldn’t want to keep that loser while we’re tanking. Ok, that’s an odd way to phrase it, but anyway.

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 01:25 AM

I guess it's pro-rated for the rest of the season, but still. You're paying a huge amount of money for a single pick. The problem is that Nets and Lakers (might) need a facilitator but they don't have enough to appeal to the Spurs to be used.

I’d be much more hard nosed than DPG is. Facilitating the move of two big-name players would be worth four FRPs, or I would tell them to go chase Chinese balloons. Also some cash, to help buy out Westbrook.

Four FRPs, lightly enough protected to be valued at $10 M each, plus $7 M in cash, and there’s $47 M.

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 01:42 AM

I’d be much more hard nosed than DPG is. Facilitating the move of two big-name players would be worth four FRPs, or I would tell them to go chase Chinese balloons. Also some cash, to help buy out Westbrook.

Four FRPs, lightly enough protected to be valued at $10 M each, plus $7 M in cash, and there’s $47 M.

They don't have those picks.

I don't see any trade with Kyrie likely at this point. Just call his bluff and play the rest of the season. S&T in the offseason. If a trade does happen, I see Utah in the middle, not the Spurs.

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 03:02 AM

in what I wrote earlier:

Four FRPs, lightly enough protected to be valued at $10 M each, plus $7 M in cash, and there’s $47 M.

That cash amount is impossible. The rules limit the amount of cash included in trades, and the Spurs are currently at $4,863,000, for the maximum amount they could receive.

Twisted_Dawg

02-04-2023, 03:33 AM

Since we're throwing out trades...let's get Brooklyn off Simmons..

LA- Kyrie

Brooklyn- WB, McD, and Josh + LA 2029 1st

Spurs- Simmons, LA 2027 1st, and LA 2028 swap
If you think Simmons is a head case now, just wait until he learns he's been traded to an expansion team way down in San Antonio,Texas.

Twisted_Dawg

02-04-2023, 03:43 AM

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 04:05 AM

Funny post about Spur accountants freaking out over some of these trade scenarios.

But I do wonder if we have anybody in the front office that can think outside the box and consider a complex 3 team trade like this, as well as pull it off? The old Pop/Burford team certainly didn't.

Didn't the old front office pull the Hedo Turkogku trade out of thin air and creativity? I believe Brad Miller was involved.

heyheymymy

02-04-2023, 08:22 AM

lol just wanna say fuck that nazi trash Kyrie Herrving

Twisted_Dawg

02-04-2023, 08:44 AM

Didn't the old front office pull the Hedo Turkogku trade out of thin air and creativity? I believe Brad Miller was involved.

I thought of this trade before I posted. I seem to recall that was a three team trade where we took Turkoglu to make the trade work for the other two teams. It came out of the blue after we won a ring. We didn't have to give up anything. No complex negotiations, no draft capital involved or taking back bad players or contracts. We just had to answer the phone and simply say yes. Sad part of that gift was PATFO giving up to quickly on Hedo, who went on to have a solid career.

Twisted_Dawg

02-04-2023, 09:10 AM

I get that, but this is about extracting as much as possible because we are NEEDED for this deal to work. With all that stuff going out, there needs to be more that a 27FRP and trash coming back.

I like my variant:

LAL: Irving
BKN: Jak, Rich, Doug
SAS: brick + 27 + 28swap + 29

I love this trade idea. And I don't think it's the usual farfetched message board trade.

I assume the picks and swap are from the Lakes? Are they protected or unprotected?

As a comparison, if we simply traded Jak to a team for a lottery protected #1, that's one pick.

If we packaged Rich and Doug to another team for a top 20 protected pick, that's another #1.

So that's two #1s without having to facilitate Irving and Russ. So your scenario is realistic.

Twisted_Dawg

02-04-2023, 09:46 AM

Yeah it was the Bryn trade that was in January.

Exact timeline of Spurs transactions last season, since there always seems to be confusion:

-Aug 6: We take part in that big 5 team trade that send Westbrook to the Lakers. Spurs got Wizards SRP and Chandler Hutchinson for Nikola Milutinov

-We trade Drew and Thad to the Wizards 2022 SRP for Dragic and the pick that became Branham

-We trade Derrick for Romeo, Josh, the pick that became Blake, and a top-1 protected swap in 2028

-June 30: We trade DJM for Gallo, and all dem picks

So there is hope that Brian Wright can work some magic in the next few days and pull off a complex stunning trade.

cjw

02-04-2023, 09:51 AM

Just because you have to hit a salary floor doesn’t mean you waste your valuable cap space that NO other team has to absorb Westbrook. Plenty of teams need that space … possibly even small pieces of it … to make trades happen. Stranger things have happened, but they could net lottery protected firsts just renting out a portion of the space.

They’ll find a way to hit the floor. Just be patient, and good things will come. If anything, Wright’s maneuvering over the past year shows they are able to work their way into trades and extract assets.

exstatic

02-04-2023, 10:16 AM

pretty sure they have gotten some other fish they didnt deserve…like maybe

kobe refusing to play for team that drafted him for a laker spot
unibrow (altho a fucking bonafide china doll- pretty sure he was a big fish when betraying the pels to go to l.a.)
kawhi betraying the spurs for l.a. and altho he ended up on clippers - the lakers tampered like a muthafucker to pry him outnof s.a.
karl malone and gary payton ring chasing

kareem from milwaukee
wilt from philly

im sure im forgetting a few dozen others that l.a. had no legit right to- but nabbed them anyways

I acknowledged late career ring chasers. Kareem was a trade. Wilt was a trade. Unibrow was a trade. Kobe was a trade.

Two big fish in the last 27 years. Two.

If the Lakers go completely to shit, no one will sign there, and no one will want to be traded there.

jjspur

02-04-2023, 11:16 AM

Spurs pay money due to being under anyways. So whether it’s spread out to existing players or to a new player it’s the same money is all I’m saying. I’m not saying Spurs will take on 30M, but none-to a few? Ya I think they will do that especially up to whatever they are to get to the floor

We both know there is a salary floor for the spurs, but what I'm saying is that don't spend money for Russ or any other high salary player that gets us to the floor and beyond and then release him. Sure it gets you off the salary floor and possibly a first round pick a few years from now but nothing else. That's a lot of money to pay for a first round pick that will probably be lottery protected but nothing of value now when you've actually spent the money. I find it amazing that the lakers want something of value (picks or players) for something that offers very little value (Russ) considering most teams will probably release him. If Russ had any real value they wouldn't be trying to trade him. Its just the lakers trying to pull a fast one on the league.

jjspur

02-04-2023, 11:29 AM

I’d be much more hard nosed than DPG is. Facilitating the move of two big-name players would be worth four FRPs, or I would tell them to go chase Chinese balloons. Also some cash, to help buy out Westbrook.

Four FRPs, lightly enough protected to be valued at $10 M each, plus $7 M in cash, and there’s $47 M.

Now that's a deal !! Lakers and Nets wouldn't do it but that is fair value for the spurs for taking on such a ridiculous salary.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 11:40 AM

We both know there is a salary floor for the spurs, but what I'm saying is that don't spend money for Russ or any other high salary player that gets us to the floor and beyond and then release him. Sure it gets you off the salary floor and possibly a first round pick a few years from now but nothing else. That's a lot of money to pay for a first round pick that will probably be lottery protected but nothing of value now when you've actually spent the money. I find it amazing that the lakers want something of value (picks or players) for something that offers very little value (Russ) considering most teams will probably release him. If Russ had any real value they wouldn't be trying to trade him. Its just the lakers trying to pull a fast one on the league.

Why would you think the Spurs care if they are spending the same money with Russ or without him in this scenario? Would you rather spend the money or spend the same money + get a pick? Seems easy to me.

I’m not saying absorb Russ and send no players out. Spurs would be sending out money too

Seventyniner

02-04-2023, 11:53 AM

Nets are 35M over the cap resulting in a whooping 108M in luxury tax bill. Re-routing Westbrook to SA while Kyrie goes out to LA and getting Doug/Collins/Tre to BKY would knock off nearly half of their luxury tax bill. It’s an insane amount they would get in savings while still getting a first and some solid players on friendly deals.

Thanks for the numbers. I didn't know the Nets' tax burden was that steep.

What's the smallest amount of salary the Spurs can send out while taking back only Westbrook? I'd imagine that if the Nets are worried about the tax they would want to take back as little salary as possible. That and they could get a bigger trade exception out of the deal if they take back less salary, in case they decide to pivot next year.

On the other hand the Lakers probably don't care about cap sheet cleanliness or luxury tax payments at all, so couldn't they take back any salaries the Nets don't want? Kyrie's salary is $10M less than Westbrook's anyway.

BG_Spurs_Fan

02-04-2023, 12:02 PM

KingKev

02-04-2023, 12:09 PM

The only way I see us getting involved is if the Nets actually would consider Russ as an asset once we bought him out amd it is pre arranged that he signs there after a buyout.

Lakers - Irving
Nets - JRich, 1 unprotected Lakers FRP, Russ as a buyout
Spurs - Russ to be bought out, 1 unprotected Lakers FRP, Lakers pick swap

Lakers make out pretty well here so it all depends on how much of a dick Kryrie is versus how the Nets want to play hardball.

I really don’t like the idea of helping facilitate the Lakers Kyrie because even if this season fails they will be loaded with ring chasers come 2023-24.

exstatic

02-04-2023, 12:54 PM

We both know there is a salary floor for the spurs, but what I'm saying is that don't spend money for Russ or any other high salary player that gets us to the floor and beyond and then release him. Sure it gets you off the salary floor and possibly a first round pick a few years from now but nothing else. That's a lot of money to pay for a first round pick that will probably be lottery protected but nothing of value now when you've actually spent the money. I find it amazing that the lakers want something of value (picks or players) for something that offers very little value (Russ) considering most teams will probably release him. If Russ had any real value they wouldn't be trying to trade him. Its just the lakers trying to pull a fast one on the league.

It’s not an extra cost. If we don’t pay and release Russ, the money will HAVE to be distributed amongst our current roster. That’s the penalty of not meeting the salary floor. There are only two scenarios:

1. Trade for Russ and a FRP, release him, and make the salary floor.
2. Don’t do the trade, pay the money to the current roster players.

Only one of those nets you a FRP.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 01:32 PM

Considering Nets will be looking for good players to contend with, not picks or tax relief, a deal with Utah or Indiana would make more sense for them than SA.

Something like Conley and Beasley to Nets, Irving and Clarkson to Lakers and Westbrook + picks to Utah is quite balanced.

Are we sure? I don’t agree that Conley & Beasley are so much better than Doug/Jak/Richardson/Tre/Collins that it’s not worth 50M in savings, but thats just me. I mean that Jazz trade works, I’m just not so sure I would view aging Conley+Beasley as materially better than Doug/Collins/Tre/Unprotected 1st and what you could potentially get in another deal by using that 1st + Spurs players.

So worst case if you can’t flip some combo Doug + Collins + Tre + unprotected first for a player better than Conley or Beasley? Then at least you still have some good role players and save a ton of money.

I’m 99% certain that you can flip that unprotected 1st + Tre/Doug for a MUCH better player than Conley or Beasley though.

Would the Lakers rather have Clarkson over Josh Richardson? Absolutely. So I see it from their perspective. But BKY is really giving up getting an unprotected first & saving 50M for Mike Conley and Beasley who both average under 13 points and 40% shooting (both ok from 3)?

That seems like a wayyyyyy worse deal for BKY compared to mine. Maybe if Clarkson went to BKY instead of Beasley?

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 01:45 PM

Considering Nets will be looking for good players to contend with, not picks or tax relief, a deal with Utah or Indiana would make more sense for them than SA.

Something like Conley and Beasley to Nets, Irving and Clarkson to Lakers and Westbrook + picks to Utah is quite balanced.

As I mentioned - I think this is awful deal for BKY compared to mine. They lose out on a crazy good pick asset, don’t save money and don’t get really any better players thanSA is offering.

I could see a 4th team involved by using my trade too. Lets see BKY wants a better player than Conley/Beasley or Doug/Tre/Collins - loop in someone like DET and send Doug/Collins to them with that unprotected first and get Bojan Bogdanovic

So instead of getting Conley + Beasley in your deal - it ends up looking like:

Lakers Get: Kyrie + Josh Richardson

Brooklyn Gets: Bojan Bogdanovic + Tre Jones (which IMO is much much better than Conley + Beasley and now they also save a solid chunk of change - 22M in, 37M out)

DET Gets: Doug + Collins + Lakers unprotected 1st

Sa Gets: Westbrook + Lakers Unprotected 1st

pad300

02-04-2023, 02:26 PM

Fake Trade:

Lakers Get: Kyrie + Josh Richardson

BKY Gets: Doug + Tre + Zach + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

SA Gets: Westbrook (whom they waive so he can sign with a contender) + 1 Lakers unprotected 1st

My thoughts: If LA is really trying to win, and willing to give up 2 firsts this gets them more than just Kyrie in Josh Richardson to help with depth. BKY doesn’t lose Kyrie for a nothing player, gets 3 solid rotation pieces to help now and shaves their 100M tax bill in half while still getting a great pick as well.

SA loses only Tre from the “young” core, keeps rest of core including Jak for another deal/to re-sign and while they maybe should get more than one first for giving up Doug/Zach/Tre/Saving BKY a ton of money, they get the best possible one pick so quality over quantity.

DPG, your deal is underpaying us. We're chucking in multiple assets - Richardson, Doug, Tre and Zach plus our available capspace (which, as you note, is a unique asset in the NBA at this point, and I think the only way a WB for Kyrie swap gets done) for only 1 pick. That deal potentially rescues the Lakers' season and saves Brooklyn a ton of cap charges (and might fix their season as well - getting Kyrie out of the mix with Simmons might help both players, and they get some useful players back as well). At a minimum we should be going for both LA Picks, and I would certainly start the ask at more than that. Either a 3ed pick from Brooklyn or the 28 swap from LAL.

cjw

02-04-2023, 02:31 PM

It’s not an extra cost. If we don’t pay and release Russ, the money will HAVE to be distributed amongst our current roster. That’s the penalty of not meeting the salary floor. There are only two scenarios:

1. Trade for Russ and a FRP, release him, and make the salary floor.
2. Don’t do the trade, pay the money to the current roster players.

Only one of those nets you a FRP.

If it’s one or the other (and you have no better options), you absolutely trade for Russ and take the first. If you do it, you try to get away with ceding only one of Richardson or McDermott to make dollars work.

I am fine punting on next year’s cap space too if we can somehow reroute Westbrook to Charlotte and take back Hayward’s terrible contract and remove most of the pick protections on the Charlotte pick. I don’t know what it’s worth to either side, but imagine Charlotte is in more of a hurry than Spurs to improve and shed salary for next year. Not sure if we can get an additional asset beyond amending the pick protections.

I firmly remain in the camp that you can play hardball with the Lakers as the Spurs are really their only path. And you work other options that can net picks into the cap space as well. I think both are possible.

RedAzSa

02-04-2023, 02:44 PM

CGD

02-04-2023, 03:43 PM

I love this trade idea. And I don't think it's the usual farfetched message board trade.

I assume the picks and swap are from the Lakes? Are they protected or unprotected?

As a comparison, if we simply traded Jak to a team for a lottery protected #1, that's one pick.

If we packaged Rich and Doug to another team for a top 20 protected pick, that's another #1.

So that's two #1s without having to facilitate Irving and Russ. So your scenario is realistic.

Yeah I think it’s a realistic trade under the circumstances. Agee on Jakob, but I think Doug/Rich, while useful to the Nets, are kind of a wash in terms of pick return coming back our way. The additional unprotected LAL first is for Brick/facilitating alone and the swap for the ~10M cap savings to LAL.

If Nets insist on the optics of getting back a FRP, I’d entertain sending them the CHA pick for a SRP.

jjspur

02-04-2023, 04:27 PM

It’s not an extra cost. If we don’t pay and release Russ, the money will HAVE to be distributed amongst our current roster. That’s the penalty of not meeting the salary floor. There are only two scenarios:

1. Trade for Russ and a FRP, release him, and make the salary floor.
2. Don’t do the trade, pay the money to the current roster players.

Only one of those nets you a FRP.

Bottom line

1. Spurs are currently at about 99 million is salary
2. NBA Salary floor is 111 million
3. We need to spend approximately 12 million just to get to the salary floor
4. We trade JRich and Dougie's 25.6 million total salary for Russ's 47 million dollar salary to get a first round pick in say 2029 . Granted half of those players salary is already used up so its a 12 million for a 24 million dollar contract and a first.
5. The issue I have is that yeah we get to the salary floor but we also spend an extra 12 million for Russ's contract of which we will get nothing or very little in return (buyout wise) when we release him.
6. So basically you're paying about 12 million now for a probably protected future first and you don't replace JRich and/or Dougie which will also cost if you do.
7. I know this is pretty much of a lost season but this deal seems awfully expensive for just one first round pick.
8. I can see the spurs making a small trade at the deadline if at all, but divide the rest of the salary floor money between the players. They deserve it after playing in such a terrible tanking season.

JPB

02-04-2023, 04:31 PM

I love this trade idea. And I don't think it's the usual farfetched message board trade.

I assume the picks and swap are from the Lakes? Are they protected or unprotected?

As a comparison, if we simply traded Jak to a team for a lottery protected #1, that's one pick.

If we packaged Rich and Doug to another team for a top 20 protected pick, that's another #1.

So that's two #1s without having to facilitate Irving and Russ. So your scenario is realistic.

I don't imagine BKN trading Irving and losing picks for just 3 of our role players (Jak, Doug, RIch). No interest for them.

Would I do that as a GM? Hell, no. You can find guys like Doug and Rich around. And not sure why they would even want these 3 guys (except for the fact it would arrange us) but 100% sure BKN fans hate that trade just I would if I was one...

mo7888

02-04-2023, 04:33 PM

Ariel

02-04-2023, 04:38 PM

I'm getting the feeling we're kind of looking from the outside while other feast, waiting for the breadcrumbs that fall of the table.

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 04:41 PM

I'm getting the feeling we're kind of looking from the outside while other feast, waiting for the breadcrumbs that fall of the table.

??

Lol, because of Hachimura or what? Ain't no one feasting right now.

jjspur

02-04-2023, 04:43 PM

You take that deal 10 out of 10 times....

Easy to say if you're not an investor. The spurs are already losing money this season, this would just add to the misery. I know the spurs need to get to the salary floor, but I'm sure that there are better ways to do it than this trade.

Ariel

02-04-2023, 04:46 PM

??

Lol, because of Hachimura or what? Ain't no one feasting right now.
Because nobody seems to be looking for Poeltl, and Richardson may be plan Z for every other wing that's being thrown around. It seems everybody is going after Toronto & Utah's players, without any solid info pointing to any of our players. That may change as the deadline approaches, but price is likely to be less than ideal.

mo7888

02-04-2023, 04:47 PM

Easy to say if you're not an investor. The spurs are already losing money this season, this would just add to the misery. I know the spurs need to get to the salary floor, but I'm sure that there are better ways to do it than this trade.

Investors in NBA teams don't make their money on a season by season spending on players salary that stays under the cap.

They make their money by buying at a particular valuation and selling years later at a higher valuation because the league has gone up in value over that duration. Investors in the Spurs got in when the team was valued in the hundreds of millions, and when they divest, it'll be when the team is valued with another zero at the end of that number....

JPB

02-04-2023, 04:52 PM

Because nobody seems to be looking for Poeltl, and Richardson may be plan Z for every other wing that's being thrown around. It seems everybody is going after Toronto & Utah's players, without any solid info pointing to any of our players. That may change as the deadline approaches, but price is likely to be less than ideal.

I agree with that. Our players are not priorities and there's certainly way too much optimism about what spurs could get for their "assets".

I highly doubt Rich or Doug could even land a FRP each, and Jak's certainly not worth 2 FRPs for anyone... And truth is we have no idea why DET, CHA, BKN, TOR, BOS... are actually looking for or ready to give.

The only solid value is our cap space.

exstatic

02-04-2023, 04:54 PM

lmbebo

02-04-2023, 05:00 PM

Bottom line

1. Spurs are currently at about 99 million is salary
2. NBA Salary floor is 111 million
3. We need to spend approximately 12 million just to get to the salary floor
4. We trade JRich and Dougie's 25.6 million total salary for Russ's 47 million dollar salary to get a first round pick in say 2029 . Granted half of those players salary is already used up so its a 12 million for a 24 million dollar contract and a first.
5. The issue I have is that yeah we get to the salary floor but we also spend an extra 12 million for Russ's contract of which we will get nothing or very little in return (buyout wise) when we release him.
6. So basically you're paying about 12 million now for a probably protected future first and you don't replace JRich and/or Dougie which will also cost if you do.
7. I know this is pretty much of a lost season but this deal seems awfully expensive for just one first round pick.
8. I can see the spurs making a small trade at the deadline if at all, but divide the rest of the salary floor money between the players. They deserve it after playing in such a terrible tanking season.

Lakers aren't looking to rid themselves of Westbrook just to get rid of him. They would move him for pieces. All talk is that they will attach pics only for players they deem worthy (i.e. if they could get Luka or something).

KingKev

02-04-2023, 05:01 PM

No. It has to be paid out at the end of the year.. There is a pot of money that gets apportioned based on the percentage of the cap you receive.

I doubt it comes to that. I’m guessing the Spurs have a lot of small cap trades lined up in case a big trade does not materialize.

Without looking into it I suspect a portion of that under the cap salary is already allocated pro-rata same way as if we took on Wes Russ today.

mo7888

02-04-2023, 05:02 PM

Lakers aren't looking to rid themselves of Westbrook just to get rid of him. They would move him for pieces. All talk is that they will attach pics only for players they deem worthy (i.e. if they could get Luka or something).

I don't believe that, but if it turns out to be true, then they'll have to keep him because no one is taking him without a pick being attached.

JeffDuncan

02-04-2023, 05:25 PM

How exactly does scenario #2 work? Is the money evenly distributed among the entire roster, or could the spurs allocate it strategically? I’m imagining a *wink wink* deal like what Turner got: more money NOW in exchange for a new team-friendly deal (Vassell, Jak, etc.). In effect, this would provide cap relief to future spurs teams, rather than other teams now.

Unless it’s changed, the individual amounts the players get is determined by the players union. That’s probably to prevent exactly what you said - the team trying to take advantage.

So I guess, in practice, the team front office sends the check for the full amount to the players union, and it’s distributed to the players from there. Also, I think the money is distributed in shares, not according to contract size. (Since contract size was negotiated with the team, but this is strictly a player thing.) Back to what you asked, it’s more of an even distribution, I believe.

TDMVPDPOY

02-04-2023, 06:51 PM

maybe a trade for kyrie will solve the spurs pg position...trey is fkn shit

then draft ur big or whatever shit around kyrie......only for him to pull a pms out of nowhere request another trade...

Teamduncan21

02-04-2023, 07:33 PM

Bottom line

1. Spurs are currently at about 99 million is salary
2. NBA Salary floor is 111 million
3. We need to spend approximately 12 million just to get to the salary floor
4. We trade JRich and Dougie's 25.6 million total salary for Russ's 47 million dollar salary to get a first round pick in say 2029 . Granted half of those players salary is already used up so its a 12 million for a 24 million dollar contract and a first.
5. The issue I have is that yeah we get to the salary floor but we also spend an extra 12 million for Russ's contract of which we will get nothing or very little in return (buyout wise) when we release him.
6. So basically you're paying about 12 million now for a probably protected future first and you don't replace JRich and/or Dougie which will also cost if you do.
7. I know this is pretty much of a lost season but this deal seems awfully expensive for just one first round pick.
8. I can see the spurs making a small trade at the deadline if at all, but divide the rest of the salary floor money between the players. They deserve it after playing in such a terrible tanking season.

Spurs will be paying that 12m regardless. Whether to Westbrook or to other players.
So just get a pick with it.
Spurs will pay to reach cap floor. Whether they buy the pick or not.
It's like you have to spend all your money this year. If you didn't. You lose it anyway. Might as well buy an expensive meal

ace3g

02-04-2023, 08:13 PM

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1622040238271905794

JPB

02-04-2023, 08:18 PM

Lakers aren't looking to rid themselves of Westbrook just to get rid of him. They would move him for pieces. All talk is that they will attach pics only for players they deem worthy (i.e. if they could get Luka or something).

I believe that too. they're desperate for more talent and would try to get something really valuable back.

CGD

02-04-2023, 09:50 PM

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1622040238271905794

Could be interesting if they’re willing to part with Mann. Lakers will definitely have competition which cuts both ways for our prospects.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 09:51 PM

DPG, your deal is underpaying us. We're chucking in multiple assets - Richardson, Doug, Tre and Zach plus our available capspace (which, as you note, is a unique asset in the NBA at this point, and I think the only way a WB for Kyrie swap gets done) for only 1 pick. That deal potentially rescues the Lakers' season and saves Brooklyn a ton of cap charges (and might fix their season as well - getting Kyrie out of the mix with Simmons might help both players, and they get some useful players back as well). At a minimum we should be going for both LA Picks, and I would certainly start the ask at more than that. Either a 3ed pick from Brooklyn or the 28 swap from LAL.

Maybe and I said I can see that perspective. But I view knocking Dougs money off next year (regardless of need to do so), not truly taking on any meaningful money this year & keeping Jak to sign or trade still along with entirety of main core outside of Tre as a big win alongside the quality of the pick.

Would you rather have both LA picks lottery protected and maybe a 2nd from BKY or the 1 fully unprotected pick? To me, while I can 100% understand others want more, would still be happy due to that picks potential and value.

CGD

02-04-2023, 09:54 PM

I believe that too. they're desperate for more talent and would try to get something really valuable back.

Irving is one of those players

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 09:55 PM

I agree with that. Our players are not priorities and there's certainly way too much optimism about what spurs could get for their "assets".

I highly doubt Rich or Doug could even land a FRP each, and Jak's certainly not worth 2 FRPs for anyone... And truth is we have no idea why DET, CHA, BKN, TOR, BOS... are actually looking for or ready to give.

The only solid value is our cap space.

I am absolutely perplexed that outside of maybe Clarkson, people think Conley/Beasley are better than Doug/Richardson/Tre/Collins. Nothing points to that fact at all let alone accounting for age, contracts and quality of teammate they are.

All of the Spurs players I mentioned are objectively better than Conley/Beasley or at the very least equal at worst.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 10:00 PM

JPB

02-04-2023, 10:12 PM

I am absolutely perplexed that outside of maybe Clarkson, people think Conley/Beasley are better than Doug/Richardson/Tre/Collins. Nothing points to that fact at all let alone accounting for age, contracts and quality of teammate they are.

All of the Spurs players I mentioned are objectively better than Conley/Beasley or at the very least equal at worst.

I don't know but playing in a tanking team certainly doesn't help.

Dverde

02-04-2023, 10:25 PM

Clippers including Terence Mann may get the deal done.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 10:35 PM

I don't know but playing in a tanking team certainly doesn't help.

Maybe - but I highly doubt, unless you are someone that shows lack of effort etc that coaches and NBA talent evaluators care that much. Even on the bad team, they can look at stats, efficiency and advanced metrics to paint a picture and that picture does not have players like Conley/Beasley as better, let alone a lot better, than the guys SA has.

jjspur

02-04-2023, 10:49 PM

Spurs will be paying that 12m regardless. Whether to Westbrook or to other players.
So just get a pick with it.
Spurs will pay to reach cap floor. Whether they buy the pick or not.
It's like you have to spend all your money this year. If you didn't. You lose it anyway. Might as well buy an expensive meal

If you look at items 1 - 3 , that point is clearly made. There is no argument with that. We will spend it one way or another. Its everything beyond that amount that gets expensive whether in players or lost salary to a waived player.

Big time players like Kyrie and Russ will get their money one way or another but one bad deal by the team can negatively haunt the franchise for years. You have to remember that this deal will not help the spurs this year (other than getting to the salary floor) for another few years at best. I believe that there are better, more equitable deals out there.

MannyIsGod

02-04-2023, 11:03 PM

Bottom line

1. Spurs are currently at about 99 million is salary
2. NBA Salary floor is 111 million
3. We need to spend approximately 12 million just to get to the salary floor
4. We trade JRich and Dougie's 25.6 million total salary for Russ's 47 million dollar salary to get a first round pick in say 2029 . Granted half of those players salary is already used up so its a 12 million for a 24 million dollar contract and a first.
5. The issue I have is that yeah we get to the salary floor but we also spend an extra 12 million for Russ's contract of which we will get nothing or very little in return (buyout wise) when we release him.
6. So basically you're paying about 12 million now for a probably protected future first and you don't replace JRich and/or Dougie which will also cost if you do.
7. I know this is pretty much of a lost season but this deal seems awfully expensive for just one first round pick.
8. I can see the spurs making a small trade at the deadline if at all, but divide the rest of the salary floor money between the players. They deserve it after playing in such a terrible tanking season.

Who fucking cares? Why would anyone here care how much money goes towards a first? Its dead money and its not like it stops the Spurs from anything in the future? Are you the Holts?

I'm not in favor of any particular deal, but fans acting like something being expensive when it has no impact on them is hilarious.

DPG21920

02-04-2023, 11:13 PM

And to be clear on something - I am not saying this is the only deal or that it’s the best deal BKY can get etc…lots of deals for them to make and many possible paths. Just a way that seems somewhat clear on how SA can add value to a trade and get something out of it too.

spurraider21

02-04-2023, 11:15 PM

Could be interesting if they’re willing to part with Mann. Lakers will definitely have competition which cuts both ways for our prospects.

Clippers including Terence Mann may get the deal done.
Why would a 26 year old averaging 8ppg be such a difference maker in a kyrie deal?

baseline bum

02-04-2023, 11:23 PM

I guess it's pro-rated for the rest of the season, but still. You're paying a huge amount of money for a single pick. The problem is that Nets and Lakers (might) need a facilitator but they don't have enough to appeal to the Spurs to be used.

Why wouldn't you want to rent the capspace for an asset? Better than paying the difference between the current cap figure and the salary floor and getting nothing out of it.

Mr. Body

02-04-2023, 11:46 PM

Why wouldn't you want to rent the capspace for an asset? Better than paying the difference between the current cap figure and the salary floor and getting nothing out of it.

My guess is there are other teams that will want to use the SAS cap space. I don't see a Kyrie trade that sends anything the Spurs way. If they pay twenty million plus for a single draft pick that's not my money.

baseline bum

02-04-2023, 11:56 PM

My guess is there are other teams that will want to use the SAS cap space. I don't see a Kyrie trade that sends anything the Spurs way. If they pay twenty million plus for a single draft pick that's not my money.

They wouldn't be paying $20 million since Westbrook's salary would be pro-rated to about $15.7 million. The trade deadline is more than 2/3 into the season, just because the allstar game hasn't happened yet doesn't mean we're not way past the halfway mark of the season. And if they stood pad they'd have to spend $12 million more than their current committed salary anyways to hit the salary floor. So in a vacuum it could be like paying $3.7 million for a pick, though more likely it wouldn't cost the Spurs any money since they'd have to send salary out.

Mr. Body

02-05-2023, 12:05 AM

They wouldn't be paying $20 million since Westbrook's salary would be pro-rated to about $15.7 million. The trade deadline is more than 2/3 into the season, just because the allstar game hasn't happened yet doesn't mean we're not way past the halfway mark of the season. And if they stood pad they'd have to spend $12 million more than their current committed salary anyways to hit the salary floor. So in a vacuum it could be like paying $3.7 million for a pick, though more likely it wouldn't cost the Spurs any money since they'd have to send salary out.

If that's it, I see Brooklyn just eating the luxury tax and taking the extra pick themselves.

Dverde

02-05-2023, 12:15 AM

Why would a 26 year old averaging 8ppg be such a difference maker in a kyrie deal?

He has upside and a few 30+ point games so far. All the other offers are washed overpaid players like Westbrook, Lowry, Chris Paul (which I don’t believe is on the table). Beggars can’t be too picky. I think Clippers are going to get this done.

baseline bum

02-05-2023, 12:31 AM

If that's it, I see Brooklyn just eating the luxury tax and taking the extra pick themselves.

The full salary counts against Brooklyn's luxury tax penalty since Westbrooks full $47 million counts against their cap if they just eat the salary. It's pretty hilarious. His actual salary they payout will be prorated, but not their tax hit.

scott

02-05-2023, 02:51 AM

If you look at items 1 - 3 , that point is clearly made. There is no argument with that. We will spend it one way or another. Its everything beyond that amount that gets expensive whether in players or lost salary to a waived player.

Big time players like Kyrie and Russ will get their money one way or another but one bad deal by the team can negatively haunt the franchise for years. You have to remember that this deal will not help the spurs this year (other than getting to the salary floor) for another few years at best. I believe that there are better, more equitable deals out there.

Dafuq you talking about? Taking on Russ and immediately waiving him isn't going to haunt the franchise for years, it's going to take a couple of hours of Brian Wright's time and he'll net some draft capital for it. There isn't some ghost of Russ's buyout that is going to haunt anyone :lol

scott

02-05-2023, 02:55 AM

The full salary counts against Brooklyn's luxury tax penalty since Westbrooks full $47 million counts against their cap if they just eat the salary. It's pretty hilarious. His actual salary they payout will be prorated, but not their tax hit.

Per usual, you've nailed it the analysis on this one. Getting a pick for facilitating Westbrook will cost the Spurs around $4MM for a pick (a bargin), whereas Brooklyn eating the tax bill will make it absurdly expensive. We're in a good position to facilitate on this one.

spurraider21

02-05-2023, 03:00 AM

He has upside and a few 30+ point games so far. All the other offers are washed overpaid players like Westbrook, Lowry, Chris Paul (which I don’t believe is on the table). Beggars can’t be too picky. I think Clippers are going to get this done.
He’s 26. How much upside does he have? Because of a fluke playoff performance a couple of years ago his name still carries weight?

Teamduncan21

02-05-2023, 03:08 AM

If you look at items 1 - 3 , that point is clearly made. There is no argument with that. We will spend it one way or another. Its everything beyond that amount that gets expensive whether in players or lost salary to a waived player.

Big time players like Kyrie and Russ will get their money one way or another but one bad deal by the team can negatively haunt the franchise for years. You have to remember that this deal will not help the spurs this year (other than getting to the salary floor) for another few years at best. I believe that there are better, more equitable deals out there.

How does it haunt spurs for years? Westbrook contract expires this year. Richardson, McDermott etc is not really difference maker. Unless you see them as long term pieces? If anything. It will be great for spurs to get out of that McDermott contract. They can sign someone of that calibur rather easily anyway

You said 12m is expensive. So it is not beyond that amount. (which is point 7 of what you stated)

Maybe there are better deals. Spurs will choose what best deal they can get. But on its own. The 12m doesn't matter from an expense perspective.

rankingtear

02-05-2023, 04:56 AM

We can't absorb Westbrook without sending likely both J Rich and Doug. At that scenario there is no additional salary and we are still 7.2 million below salary floor.

exstatic

02-05-2023, 07:16 AM

If that's it, I see Brooklyn just eating the luxury tax and taking the extra pick themselves.

$40M for a pick? Our situation isn’t a luxury tax one. Brooklyn is a repeat offender in the Golden State mold. They’re going to WANT someone to take Westbrook.

KingKev

02-05-2023, 07:30 AM

It’d be nice to get in on this deal if we are heavily compensated but would also be enjoyable to not cooperate and watch Kyrie sit out the rest of the season and watch both the Nets and Lakers flame out

The Truth #6

02-05-2023, 09:06 AM

KingKev

02-05-2023, 09:12 AM

My thought is that if Irving is going to torpedo the Nets season, then Durrant will likely want out too, so I think teams could consider their options and prioritize Durant instead. Just spitballing. Speculating further, it would be hilarious if OKC tried to make a move to get Durant back.

I wouldn’t mind seeing Durant go to one of these up and coming teams to finish his career out. Memphis or NO would be exciting landing spots for him.

CGD

02-05-2023, 09:37 AM

I wouldn’t mind seeing Durant go to one of these up and coming teams to finish his career out. Memphis or NO would be exciting landing spots for him.

Would you imagine? He’s be awesome at either

KingKev

02-05-2023, 10:12 AM

Would you imagine? He’s be awesome at either

I’m sure the Nets would like to salvage a last chance at winning a title with KD by getting win now players back for Kyrie but I don’t see many teams giving up much as only win now team will be interested in KI.

If Kyrie is traded KD will want out.

Nets really need to tear this down. They have a few BAD contracts on their books in Joe Harris and Simmons.

I think they most likely move Kyrie for Russ and the Lakers two unprotected FRPs. Throw in a small contract to make the math work.

exstatic

02-05-2023, 10:28 AM

I’m sure the Nets would like to salvage a last chance at winning a title with KD by getting win now players back for Kyrie but I don’t see many teams giving up much as only win now team will be interested in KI.

If Kyrie is traded KD will want out.

Nets really need to tear this down. They have a few BAD contracts on their books in Joe Harris and Simmons.

I think they most likely move Kyrie for Russ and the Lakers two unprotected FRPs. Throw in a small contract to make the math work.

They’re screwed, tax wise, unless they get someone to eat Russ’s contract, like $35M. That alone might be worth one of those UFRPs.

Ariel

02-05-2023, 10:30 AM

If I'm Brooklyn, I try my best to turn Durant into some combination of Ingram, Daniels, and their best '23 and/or '24 picks (NO's or the Lakers').

Spursfanfromafar

02-05-2023, 11:02 AM

They’re screwed, tax wise, unless they get someone to eat Russ’s contract, like $35M. That alone might be worth one of those UFRPs.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2bhxuuyt

Nets outgoing: Irving to Lakers, Harris to Lakers
Nets incoming: Josh Richardson from Spurs, Doug McDermott from Spurs, Austin Reaves from Lakers, Pat Beverley from Lakers, SRP 2025 from Lakers
Lakers outgoing: Westbrick to Spurs, Reaves to Nets, FRP 27, FRP 29 (both unprotected), SRP 2025
Lakers incoming: Irving from Nets, Harris from Nets
Spurs outgoing: Josh Richardson to Nets, Doug McDermott to Nets
Spurs incoming: Westbrick, , FRP 27, 29 from Lakers

The Nets cut their luxury tax drastically, add two good shooters in Richardson & McDermott who can spread the floor for Simmons & Durant, one up-and-comer and decent role player in Reaves and a dependable defender in Pat Bev to mix it up in the playoffs this year. And they get a SRP too.

The Lakers get Irving and extend their contention for a bit with Mr Cancer in the mix and get rid of Westbrick. In Harris, they can unlock a good 3Pt shooter once he gets his post-long term injury rhythm back.

The Spurs get two unprotected FRPs for Richardson & McDermott and for carrying Westbrick's contract.

Who says no? I guess, the Lakers. But their hands might be tied if the Clippers get into the mix.

CGD

02-05-2023, 11:13 AM

I’m sure the Nets would like to salvage a last chance at winning a title with KD by getting win now players back for Kyrie but I don’t see many teams giving up much as only win now team will be interested in KI.

If Kyrie is traded KD will want out.

Nets really need to tear this down. They have a few BAD contracts on their books in Joe Harris and Simmons.

I think they most likely move Kyrie for Russ and the Lakers two unprotected FRPs. Throw in a small contract to make the math work.

I think the concerns with the tear down is that Houston becomes the beneficiary of their picks. But if they’re able to get high value from KD that’ll help, which is why NOLA seems like a nice fit for BKN.

If they get Ingram, Dyson and Murphy/Jones plus some picks, that’s a great way to reboot. The two years of Simmons deal will go quickly.

TD 21

02-05-2023, 11:38 AM

I wouldn’t mind seeing Durant go to one of these up and coming teams to finish his career out. Memphis or NO would be exciting landing spots for him.

If/when push comes to shove, the Trail Blazers make the most sense for Durant.

A sign and trade of Grant combined with either Simons or Sharpe, plus whatever other necessary salary picks/swaps.

DPG21920

02-05-2023, 12:00 PM

If I'm Brooklyn, I try my best to turn Durant into some combination of Ingram, Daniels, and their best '23 and/or '24 picks (NO's or the Lakers').

I like that for both teams IF KD wants out…would be a fun trade.

DPG21920

02-05-2023, 12:02 PM

I think the concerns with the tear down is that Houston becomes the beneficiary of their picks. But if they’re able to get high value from KD that’ll help, which is why NOLA seems like a nice fit for BKN.

If they get Ingram, Dyson and Murphy/Jones plus some picks, that’s a great way to reboot. The two years of Simmons deal will go quickly.

Exactly. There is zero incentive to tear down because you don’t have your own picks. Also, why would you take WB when you can get better players like Doug/Josh/Collins/Tre, still not take on any salary and save a ton of money? It makes no sense to me to just take on WB for BKY but obviously that is possible if SA does not play ball or wont settle for a certain amount.

Now, if KD demands out? Sure, then you flip to only wanting picks to replace the ones you had already given up. But without having your own picks it makes tearing down a really bad option especially when you can hedge getting some useful players back and save money and still get a first too possibly (like my scenario)

ace3g

02-05-2023, 03:39 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1616325551593078784/7CY5LJK6_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes)Chris Haynes (https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes)@ChrisBHaynes (https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes)

The Phoenix Suns are prepared to pursue Brooklyn Nets star Kevin Durant should he become available, league sources tell @NBAonTNT (https://twitter.com/NBAonTNT/), @BleacherReport (https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/).

2:36pm · 5 Feb 2023 (https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes/status/1622333476937809921) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)

rascal

02-05-2023, 04:25 PM

I don't expect a trade until the last day of the deadline as all teams will hold out until the last day for the best possible trade for them.

CGD

02-05-2023, 04:31 PM