Castle ROTY watch

[dn0774]

Wemby will need to adapt to the motor he has. He expends a lot of energy going after everything, following the ball around; he will also continue to learn/pick his spots better while still maximizing overall impact. Not to say his wind won't improve as well over time, I just think we have to acknowledge the physiology of his body is probably going to prevent him from being conditioned like a prime Lebron at any point.

Its not due to a lack of effort in my opinion. He is capable of unprecedented athletic abilities for a person of his size, getting easily winded (compared to top tier NBA players) is the likely drawback. Again, I do think he can improve his cardio but the most improvement really needs to happen in terms of basketball IQ.

[spurraider21]

He was averaging like 35 minutes before the All-Star Break while being expected to be the #1 option on offense and the #1 defender while averaging 24 and 11 with 4 blocks and 4 assists. Oh, and he's 7.5 freaking feet tall.

Are you mad because he wasn't playing 42 minutes a game? Welcome to the list.
I’m not mad. There was a stretch of games before and after France when he was clearly not playing with the same energy we’ve been accustomed to. The defensive effort was lacking. A lot of people thought it was illness, allergy. When the DVT news hit the first thing this forum was speculating was whether it explained his conditioning issues

[baseline bum]

Would you trade Sochan for Amen Thompson?

Go shit in your hat

[Robz4000]

Would you trade Sochan for Amen Thompson?

Only for Ben Simmons

[John B]

Would you trade Sochan for Amen Thompson?

I’d throw in the Coyote

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQLuQK6xXHA

[ismael-robert]

Can we pin to the page a running list of dumb shit people have said that are just memes at this point, and when repeated aren’t intended to be taken as actual opinions:

Zach Collins is having an objectively good season
Stephon Castle doesn’t pass the eye test
Devin Vassell is very good, consistently
Devin Vassell has turned a fucking corner

What am I missing?

Add raven still thinking 10th seed is in reach n important without our 2 best players

[Ice009]

It's just one game, but Steph actually got to run the point and play make earlie, and he looked really good in the role (I believed him when he said he could do it before the season started). I'd love to see more games with him basically being the lead starting PG and see what happens.
I'd like to see if he could back it up. It's just one game against a depleted team, but I'd like to see how he'd do playing that role the rest of the season. Try and balance scoring and passing more. Haven't been able to see much of it due to CP3 starting at PG all season.

[exstatic]

It's just one game, but Steph actually got to run the point and play make earlie, and he looked really good in the role (I believed him when he said he could do it before the season started). I'd love to see more games with him basically being the lead starting PG and see what happens.
I'd like to see if he could back it up. It's just one game against a depleted team, but I'd like to see how he'd do playing that role the rest of the season. Try and balance scoring and passing more. Haven't been able to see much of it due to CP3 starting at PG all season.

Since like January, when they’re in the game together, if CP catches the inbounds pass, he immediately passes it to Castle, and runs up court to take a shooting position. CP is allowing this to happen.

[SupremeGuy]

Still hasn't passed the eye test, tbh.Agreed.

He hasn't gotten over himself yet. :pop:

[SupremeGuy]

If he doesn't win ROY it's only because it'd be 2 years in a row for the Spurs.

Same shit for Wemby not winning DPOY last year.

I mean Jokic, who's having the statiscally/metrically greatest season EVER, should win MVP again but he probably won't because the people who vote are weak.

[Ice009]

Since like January, when they’re in the game together, if CP catches the inbounds pass, he immediately passes it to Castle, and runs up court to take a shooting position. CP is allowing this to happen.

Doesn't CP3 usually start the gaming running plays? I haven't watched the games that closely as I'm usually doing/reading something else while it's playing, so sometimes I'm just listening to Sean and Toby, but I don't recall Stephon starting the game as the defacto PG. That is what I want to see from the get-go, Steph with the keys to the team and PG slot to start the game and see how it evolves over the course of a whole game. See if he can balance scoring and passing better. I do remember what you're saying, but I don't think they're hardly any games where Steph has started in that role from the tip off.

When Victor was playing, it was usually Victor getting the plays/ball, then De'Aaron came in and he went to the bench, then when Victor was ruled out, Steph got benched again for some reason. I don't know, maybe I'm not remembering right and Steph has had more chances to run the team with CP3 in there. In recent games, yes, but since January, I don't think there's big stretches/chunks of the games where that has happened. I want to see what he can do from the get-go.

[baseline bum]

If he doesn't win ROY it's only because it'd be 2 years in a row for the Spurs.

Same shit for Wemby not winning DPOY last year.

I mean Jokic, who's having the statiscally/metrically greatest season EVER, should win MVP again but he probably won't because the people who vote are weak.

God would I love to see Denver come rub it in all the media's faces by winning it all again just like they did when they gave Embiid Jokic's MVP trophy.

[kxs783kms]

If he doesn't win ROY it's only because it'd be 2 years in a row for the Spurs.

Same shit for Wemby not winning DPOY last year.

I mean Jokic, who's having the statiscally/metrically greatest season EVER, should win MVP again but he probably won't because the people who vote are weak.

Why would they give it to him, when Shai has great stats as well? Also his team is leading a tough Western conference 13.5 games above the next western conference team and 14.5 in front of Jokić's team, currently? Greatest season ever or not, Shai AND OKC are making their own history mainly because of Shai. Sorry, Jokic does not deserve it over Shai this year. That W-L gap is way too wide.

[dn0774]

Why would they give it to him, when Shai has great stats as well? Also his team is leading a tough Western conference 13.5 games above the next western conference team and 14.5 in front of Jokić's team, currently? Greatest season ever or not, Shai AND OKC are making their own history mainly because of Shai. Sorry, Jokic does not deserve it over Shai this year. That W-L gap is way too wide.

Worth mentioning as well that OKC has missed Chet for a massive portion of the season and JDub the past few weeks and they haven't skipped a beat thanks to Shai.

[cutewizard]

He passes the Third Eye test

[kxs783kms]

Worth mentioning as well that OKC has missed Chet for a massive portion of the season and JDub the past few weeks and they haven't skipped a beat thanks to Shai.

Yep! That just can't be glossed over either. Now if they had similar records at this point, I definitely believe Jokić would be the frontrunner but you just can't toss out that 13.5/14.5 games lead. I just even know what the debate is about when that factor alone should end the argument when you also look at the stats Shai is putting up.

[Ice009]

One of the toughest MVP decisions IMO.

They both have a case. Shai has been amazing. He's having a great season and his team is doing great and he's one of the main reasons for it. They have a real chance to do something special and win it all. If it was a choice between MVP and being in this position, I'd rather be in Shai's position.

Having said that, depsite the record, Jokic still has a very legit case IMO. He's putting up historic numbers to keep his team in the hunt for a chance at the Championship. You have to look at it that way too. Where would the Nuggets be without him and his incredible season? I think they'd be finished already. Usually, I wouldn't give it to a player who's team is that far behind the number one seed, but he still has a very good case. Shai on the other hand, would his team be better than the Nuggets without him compared to the Nuggests without Jokic? I think so, so that is where I think it's not as big of a gap as that record suggests IMO. I don't think you can base it solely on record.

[NASpurs]

He passes the Third Eye test

What about the Brown Eye test?

[ambchang]

Why would they give it to him, when Shai has great stats as well? Also his team is leading a tough Western conference 13.5 games above the next western conference team and 14.5 in front of Jokić's team, currently? Greatest season ever or not, Shai AND OKC are making their own history mainly because of Shai. Sorry, Jokic does not deserve it over Shai this year. That W-L gap is way too wide.

That’s assuming the MVP is a team award, which it isn’t in some years and is in others. What jokic is doin ‘‘twas never seen before, what shai is doing we’ve seen before, many times.

OKC is a strong team that’s well constructed, Denver is a deeply flawed team that has lost key pieces the last few years. To say the case is closed purely because of team records is saying the mvp is solely the best player on best team award. But Boston was 14 games over the second best EC team last year and 7 over the best WC team (and the nuggets). Tatum put up great stats but he didn’t win the mvp, he actually finished 6th, and jokic won it. Jokic put up even better stats this year. So there is definitely an argument for Jokic.

In fact, Jokic would likely be the run away winner this year if he had never won the award before. It’s all narratives.

[scott]

One only need to look as far as Westbrook's MVP season to find a historical parallel. Similar raw numbers but Jokic is doing it on much higher efficiency. Westbrook's team finished 6th in the west that year. I think Kawhi actually had the same case to be made as Shai that year, but Russ won pretty handedly.

[slick'81]

Pretty sweet having back2 back roty's

[TD 21]

Why would they give it to him, when Shai has great stats as well? Also his team is leading a tough Western conference 13.5 games above the next western conference team and 14.5 in front of Jokić's team, currently? Greatest season ever or not, Shai AND OKC are making their own history mainly because of Shai. Sorry, Jokic does not deserve it over Shai this year. That W-L gap is way too wide.

Exactly. Gilgeous-Alexander checks every box that has typically led to MVP (counting/advanced stats, record, narrative, waiting his "turn") and is going to win it, but this handwringing over it is the latest example of the tribalism (both ways) that has gripped this league.

Post Duncan and pre Wembanyama, Jokic was my favorite player, but all the reasons for him have been disregarded in the past. From "we know he's the best player", to the metrics (no longer uniformly) indicate, to he's averaging a triple double to record doesn't matter that much.

Even the gap in roster is not as pronounced as it's made to be considering the Thunder haven't been whole basically the entire season (yet remain on track for the point differential record) and their offense falls off a cliff without Gilgeous-Alexander because as much as Williams is a better overall player than Murray, he's not (yet?) a better offensive engine.

[dn0774]

Feels like there is a little underselling of just how efficient of a season Shai is having this year, extremely close to Jokic from what I can see (ts%, per, bpm,vorp). Played a handful more games than Jokic as well. Shai is basically having a peak level MJ season which sounds crazy to say. Jokic of course has gaudier counting stats (partly due to position, nobody expects a guard to get 12 rpg for example) and those help his case. Really comes down to overall counting stats vs Shai leading an elite team poised to win 68+ games. The efficiency is close enough to not really swing it imo.

[TD 21]

Feels like there is a little underselling of just how efficient of a season Shai is having this year, extremely close to Jokic from what I can see (ts%, per, bpm,vorp). Played a handful more games than Jokic as well. Shai is basically having a peak level MJ season which sounds crazy to say. Jokic of course has gaudier counting stats (partly due to position, nobody expects a guard to get 12 rpg for example) and those help his case. Really comes down to overall counting stats vs Shai leading an elite team poised to win 68+ games. The efficiency is close enough to not really swing it imo.

Great point. This is as good as a guard (the usual glamor/favored position) has played since Jordan.

Him and the Thunder still aren't getting enough respect. This is basically '15 Curry/Warriors on steroids. Nothing is guaranteed obviously (unless they catch unprecedented opponent injury luck like the latter), but this is an all time team in the making apparently hiding in plain sight.

[kxs783kms]

One only need to look as far as Westbrook's MVP season to find a historical parallel. Similar raw numbers but Jokic is doing it on much higher efficiency. Westbrook's team finished 6th in the west that year. I think Kawhi actually had the same case to be made as Shai that year, but Russ won pretty handedly.

Kawhi wasn't leading the league in PPG at 33, nor was his team 13.5 games ahead of the next closest team. Two totally different situations to me.

[scott]

Kawhi wasn't leading the league in PPG at 33, nor was his team 13.5 games ahead of the next closest team. Two totally different situations to me.

They aren't perfect analogies, but the Spurs and Warriors were far and above the two best teams in the league, and Kawhi was by far the best two-way player in the league that year. The Spurs did finish 14 games above the MVP's team that year. I actually thought he was more deserving that season that he was the previous when he finished 2nd in MVP voting.

[mystargtr34]

16-17 Kawhi was having one of the best individual seasons of that decade. Only LeBron, KD, Steph, Harden reached that level in the 2010’s. when you factor in his DPOY level defense I think he was second to only prime Lebron in terms of overall impact.

That Spurs team had a very real chance of beating the Warriors until Steve Kerr no doubt told Zaza to be real aggressive on his closeouts. Look how close Houston got to beating the Warriors the next year. That Warriors team was great but not some unbeatable unstoppable force. Lamarcus would have pounded them inside as well.

[SupremeGuy]

Why would they give it to him, when Shai has great stats as well? Also his team is leading a tough Western conference 13.5 games above the next western conference team and 14.5 in front of Jokić's team, currently? Greatest season ever or not, Shai AND OKC are making their own history mainly because of Shai. Sorry, Jokic does not deserve it over Shai this year. That W-L gap is way too wide.
When it's the greatest season any player has ever played, it's bullshit if he doesn't win.

Not even hating on SGA. He's balling out too.

Shit reminds me of Wilt's 50/25 season which also happened the same year as the Big O's triple double season... but Russell won the MVP. It was bullshit back then and it's bullshit now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Why are we talking about SGA in Castle's ROTY thread? Come on folks.

[tbdog]

Risacher has quietly had a really good post all star season. I don't think Castle is a lock. Risacher is shooting better and he was a dud at the start of the season.

[Ice009]

How well is Risacher playing? Not talking about stats, but is he a big part in Atlanta winning games?

[spurraider21]

How well is Risacher playing? Not talking about stats, but is he a big part in Atlanta winning games?
he's been starting for them all year. with his poor shooting he probably was holding them back at times earlier in the season, but basically since the new year he's been quite good for them. his success made it easier for them to move on from Hunter. also helps that the guys they got back, Levert and Niang, have also played pretty well since the trade, particularly Niang

[KobesAchilles]

Why are we talking about SGA in Castle's ROTY thread? Come on folks.
Bc Castle has this b on lockdown. He is Mr. ROY.

Now Jokic is the best player in the nba and it isn’t even close. He should win MVP this year but he won’t. And the funny part is the narrative around both players. Jokic is seen as having an all-star on his team in Murray (even tho Murray has never been an all-star) while SGA is seen as having no help even though he has (my vote for the DPOY) but at the very least all-nba 1st team defense on his team and and actual all-star on his team as well as a a very solid player in Chet.

OKC has a record that kills the rest of the league so I get why you could vote for SGA, but let’s be honest Joker has better FG% overall, from 3pt land, and 10% better EFG%. He has averages way more assists than SGA and like 3xs the rebounds. SGA has him in points and ironically .2 more blocks per game.

People keep bringing up Westbrook but WB never had this efficiency ever in his life, never shot the ball that well in his life, only did dump off passes for his assists, and if not for Steve Adams then he wouldn’t have the rebounds either. Joker should (he won’t) win his 4th MVP and tie LeBron.

[kxs783kms]

That’s assuming the MVP is a team award, which it isn’t in some years and is in others. What jokic is doin ‘‘twas never seen before, what shai is doing we’ve seen before, many times.

OKC is a strong team that’s well constructed, Denver is a deeply flawed team that has lost key pieces the last few years. To say the case is closed purely because of team records is saying the mvp is solely the best player on best team award. But Boston was 14 games over the second best EC team last year and 7 over the best WC team (and the nuggets). Tatum put up great stats but he didn’t win the mvp, he actually finished 6th, and jokic won it. Jokic put up even better stats this year. So there is definitely an argument for Jokic.

In fact, Jokic would likely be the run away winner this year if he had never won the award before. It’s all narratives.

Team success plays a major part in this. I can guarantee you that if Jokić was putting up these stats and his team wasn't in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure his name wouldn't be high in the MVP ranking, if he's in there at all. Same debate as Wemby for the DPOY last year. That W-L record means a lot.

[ginobilized]

Shai is playing in the MJ/Kobe realm right now, but with better efficiency. Unreal how easy he makes it look. I'd probably vote for Shai even though Jokic is otherworldly numbers wise and is insanely good at everything with no athleticism.
It feels like Shai can get a bucket any time he wants. The OKC record should count for something, too. It will be interesting to see if anyone can stop him in the playoffs.

[Raven]

went back to tank commander mode after just one game of proper basketball.. eh, he'll be fine if we get a good coach next year.

[ambchang]

Team success plays a major part in this. I can guarantee you that if Jokić was putting up these stats and his team wasn't in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure his name wouldn't be high in the MVP ranking, if he's in there at all. Same debate as Wemby for the DPOY last year. That W-L record means a lot.

Yeah but what line are you drawing for the WL? Ultimately the individual award is based on team construction, which is outside of the control of the player. Some years they are penalized for it (most years). Sometimes they aren’t (Westbrook).

[Ice009]

Shai is playing in the MJ/Kobe realm right now, but with better efficiency. Unreal how easy he makes it look. I'd probably vote for Shai even though Jokic is otherworldly numbers wise and is insanely good at everything with no athleticism.
It feels like Shai can get a bucket any time he wants. The OKC record should count for something, too. It will be interesting to see if anyone can stop him in the playoffs.

I'm suprised he's dominating this much as I wasn't too impressed with him in the Olympics at all. I know that doesn't really mean anything at all, but I'm surprised his efficiency is this high.

I still think the Nuggets would be a much worse team (probably have less wins that the Spurs if you take Jokic off the team) and maybe be on the bottom of the standings without him. I think OKC would still have a better record that the Nuggets if you take Shai off the team (not sure if you guys agree?). Right or wrong, that is the criteria I'm basing my MVP on. I don't feel record should play a huge part as long as team's aren't too far apart. I know there's a bit of a gap between records this season, but it's not like the Nuggets are 8th, they were right there for 2nd place before Jokic went out with an injury. Teams with the best record usually have more than one good player. If you ask me, this is one of the toughest MVPs to choose. I feel they both deserve co-MVP for different reasons (Jokic for carrying the Nuggets with insane numbers and Shai for his amazing efficiency and leading the Thunder to the number 1 record).

[The Truth #6]

I kind of hate SGA as a player. Seems like a product of the particulars of the NBA game (flopping, star calls). Obviously he's really good but he reminds me too much of Harden.

[scott]

I'm suprised he's dominating this much as I wasn't too impressed with him in the Olympics at all. I know that doesn't really mean anything at all, but I'm surprised his efficiency is this high.

I still think the Nuggets would be a much worse team (probably have less wins that the Spurs if you take Jokic off the team) and maybe be on the bottom of the standings without him. I think OKC would still have a better record that the Nuggets if you take Shai off the team (not sure if you guys agree?). Right or wrong, that is the criteria I'm basing my MVP on. I don't feel record should play a huge part as long as team's with the best record usually have more than one good player. If you ask me, this is one of the toughest MVPs to choose. I feel they both deserve co-MVP for different reasons (Jokic for carrying the Nuggets with insane numbers and Shai for his amazing efficiency and leading the Thunder to the number 1 record).

This is always an interesting conversation to me.

Say Shai is worth +10 wins for OKC (65 wins versus a theoretical 55 wins without him).

Now let's say that Jokic is worth 20 wins for DEN (50 wins versus a theoretical 30 wins without him).

It's easy to look at that and say that Jokic is more valuable to Denver than Shai is to OKC... but that assumes that the incremental value of each win is constant. However, there is an argument to be made that the difference between being a 55-win team and a 65-win team (that's the difference between being a contender in your conference to being an overwhelming title favorite) is more valuable than the difference between being a 50-win team (second round playoff team) and a 30-win team (lotto team).

It's a fun philosophical exercise to think about. There is no right or wrong answer, which is why there exists an entire industry just for arguing over shit like this :lol

[Knoxxx]

Castle needs to pick it up, Sarr just went for 24-7 with 2 blocks and 4/7 3 PT.

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uULVOYmyb24

[spursistan]

Pretty insane we are already shrugging these type of lines as if that's is what is expected from him :lol.

Castle is one of the most imposing, physical rookie guard I have seen in a long time. And, once again, shooting will determine the layers of Stephon's ceiling. Free throw shooting needs to be immediately worked upon. Can't be leaving 3-4 points on the table every game.

https://x.com/SpursCulture/status/1905432153149538708

[spurraider21]

shot under 40% from the field and the free throw line tho

[CGD]

^ nuts! And the game was competitive too, so not just filler stats.

[John B]

Pretty insane we are already shrugging these type of lines as if that's is what is expected from him :lol.

Castle is one of the most imposing, physical rookie guard I have seen in a long time. And, once again, shooting will determine the layers of Stephon's ceiling. Free throw shooting needs to be immediately worked upon. Can't be leaving 3-4 points on the table every game.

https://x.com/SpursCulture/status/1905432153149538708

Damn almost triple-double

[PhantomDashCam]

Castle averaging 16.4 FGA p/GM in March, just a tad under Vassell's 16.6.

What's wild though is the FTA, (which suggests Castle is shooting a lot more than that and is actually the #1 option atm for the Spurs) and minutes (obviously).

Castle averaging 6.4 FTA p/GM in March to Vassell's 1.9...

also while playing ~ five mins less per game. Impressive...

[spursistan]

https://x.com/Stocksanyama/status/1905437170220831187

[slick'81]

Roty is definitely his to lose

[dn0774]

Castle averaging 16.4 FGA p/GM in March, just a tad under Vassell's 16.6.

What's wild though is the FTA, (which suggests Castle is shooting a lot more than that and is actually the #1 option atm for the Spurs) and minutes (obviously).

Castle averaging 6.4 FTA p/GM in March to Vassell's 1.9...

also while playing ~ five mins less per game. Impressive...

Castle's ability to get to the line kind of turned out to be an unexpected wild card to his overall potential as a prospect. It elevates him to a different tier of scoring potential going forward and if his shooting splits tick up the next 3-4 seasons we could be seeing a legit number 2/fringe all-star level player. I thought he would score ~9ish ppg this year and that would be a solid outcome (obviously the tanking/Wemby & Fox injuries have boosted his stats a bit) but he has far surpassed that.

He still has a ways to go in terms of decision making and feel for the game but rookie guards are notoriously bad in those areas so that isn't a surprise. I am excited at the prospect of him and Fox becoming a 2 headed monster in the back court that are both capable of torching teams.

[John B]

Castle averaging 16.4 FGA p/GM in March, just a tad under Vassell's 16.6.

What's wild though is the FTA, (which suggests Castle is shooting a lot more than that and is actually the #1 option atm for the Spurs) and minutes (obviously).

Castle averaging 6.4 FTA p/GM in March to Vassell's 1.9...

also while playing ~ five mins less per game. Impressive...


His ability to get to the line makes him a closer especially in close games

[DAF86]

I would give my left nut for him to develop a reliable jumper.

Get that work done in the offseason kid. Spurs too, move Earth and Heaven to find out what's missing on Castle's technique.

[Knoxxx]

If Castle could make his bunnies he scarcely needs to shoot jumpers.

[Atl Spur]

I would give my left nut for him to develop a reliable jumper.

Get that work done in the offseason kid. Spurs too, move Earth and Heaven to find out what's missing on Castle's technique.

You do realize he is way ahead of the curve right ? It just takes time…

[Atl Spur]

Wait to this man starts playing in the post; we have only scratched the surface.

[spursistan]

I would give my left nut for him to develop a reliable jumper.

Get that work done in the offseason kid. Spurs too, move Earth and Heaven to find out what's missing on Castle's technique.
Before we knew about Ben Simmons' terrible work ethics and mentality, I haven't seen in a while a rookie who is this much destined for stardom if he could only do that. Castle didn't even hit the rookie wall all season long. He responded emphatically to Mitch Johnson pulling the 'hierarchy card' when Vassell/Sochan came back from injuries in December and gradually earned back his minutes--all on merit.

Chris Paul said in December that the most surprising thing about Castle for him was how he plays: "it like he is a 30-year old vet and not a 20 yo rookie". That's the ultimate compliment coming from one of the greatest floor generals of all time. He sees all the intangibles from up close. So, it is really all about his shooting because the rest (finishing, TO rate etc) will improve with more experience and seasoning..

[spurraider21]

I would give my left nut for him to develop a reliable jumper.

Get that work done in the offseason kid. Spurs too, move Earth and Heaven to find out what's missing on Castle's technique.
i would also give your left nut for that

[baseline bum]

Bovada has Steph -750 for ROY with two weeks left in the season. Sarr at +850, Risacher at +1400, Edey at +3000, and Wells at +4500 to close out the top 5.

[Ice009]

I just watched the game and thought Steph was very inefficient. I haven't been too happy with his play since that high assist game. I love that he's aggressive, but man, his shooting and efficiency isn't good lately. He's trying his ass off out there and fighting, but he's turning it over, is taking quite a few shots, and he keeps leaving points on the table at the free throw line. Maybe the team has given him the green light and told him to go for it to see what he can do? He also had a critical turnover the last couple of minutes that may have cost the Spurs the game as it swung the momentum back to the Cavs. Not saying the Spurs would have won if he didn't make that turnover, but still, would have loved to have seen what would have happened. Spurs rebounding was also terrible down the stretch. This was a rare game without Victor and De'Aaron that actually hurt a little bit to lose.

Edit : Probably being way too hard on him as he won me over early in the season and I expect so much from him that I completely forget he's a rookie. Freaking great pick from the Spurs IMO. He was my number one choice when people were talking about him pre-draft, so I'm super happy he fell to the Spurs.

[scott]

Bovada has Steph -750 for ROY with two weeks left in the season. Sarr at +850, Risacher at +1400, Edey at +3000, and Wells at +4500 to close out the top 5.

Me... the dumbass who had a $100 bet queued up in the machine at +1800 last November, but I changed my mind at the last minute :lol

I don't bet on sports so I always second guess myself when it comes time to pull the trigger

[scott]

I just watched the game and thought Steph was very inefficient. I haven't been too happy with his play since that high assist game. I love that he's aggressive, but man, his shooting and efficiency isn't good lately. He's trying his ass off out there and fighting, but he's turning it over, is taking quite a few shots, and he keeps leaving points on the table at the free throw line. Maybe the team has given him the green light and told him to go for it to see what he can do? He also had a critical turnover the last couple of minutes that may have cost the Spurs the game as it swung the momentum back to the Cavs. Not saying the Spurs would have won if he didn't make that turnover, but still, would have loved to have seen what would have happened. Spurs rebounding was also terrible down the stretch. This was a rare game without Victor and De'Aaron that actually hurt a little bit to lose.

Edit : Probably being way too hard on him as he won me over early in the season and I expect so much from him that I completely forget he's a rookie. Freaking great pick from the Spurs IMO. He was my number one choice when people were talking about him pre-draft, so I'm super happy he fell to the Spurs.

I think it's a lot like the Devin situation, where he's now being asked to fulfill a role that isn't really the role we need from him in the long-run, and as a rookie he's going to have some struggles at times. I think the good thing though is that this provides an environment where the team can observe his full range of skills at work and evaluate how those skills best fit in his true role (3rd option/secondary ball handler). So in that sense I think it's good that he's able to highlight the things he can do, we can take inventory the things that he needs to work on, and observe the things we'll need to hide by structuring the lineup the right way.

[baseline bum]

I just watched the game and thought Steph was very inefficient. I haven't been too happy with his play since that high assist game. I love that he's aggressive, but man, his shooting and efficiency isn't good lately. He's trying his ass off out there and fighting, but he's turning it over, is taking quite a few shots, and he keeps leaving points on the table at the free throw line. Maybe the team has given him the green light and told him to go for it to see what he can do? He also had a critical turnover the last couple of minutes that may have cost the Spurs the game as it swung the momentum back to the Cavs. Not saying the Spurs would have won if he didn't make that turnover, but still, would have loved to have seen what would have happened. Spurs rebounding was also terrible down the stretch. This was a rare game without Victor and De'Aaron that actually hurt a little bit to lose.

Edit : Probably being way too hard on him as he won me over early in the season and I expect so much from him that I completely forget he's a rookie. Freaking great pick from the Spurs IMO. He was my number one choice when people were talking about him pre-draft, so I'm super happy he fell to the Spurs.

19-20 YO rookies are always going to be inefficient given how enormous a jump the NBA is from the NCAA and other pro leagues (unless you're Doncic playing for Real Madrid). But you definitely see elite tools that should make him at least a very good starter with his size, athleticism, ability to get to the line, court vision both offensively and defensively, strength, and some good looking footwork at the rim. I thought it would take a couple of years to see this Steph Castle but with his growth this year I'm enormously excited about his future.

[LeBowen]

I think it's a lot like the Devin situation, where he's now being asked to fulfill a role that isn't really the role we need from him in the long-run, and as a rookie he's going to have some struggles at times. I think the good thing though is that this provides an environment where the team can observe his full range of skills at work and evaluate how those skills best fit in his true role (3rd option/secondary ball handler). So in that sense I think it's good that he's able to highlight the things he can do, we can take inventory the things that he needs to work on, and observe the things we'll need to hide by structuring the lineup the right way.

I think he's been playing within his role, it's just that he's been missing too many easy layups at the rim. Still, as someone pointed out recently (maybe it was even you), his efficency is great considering the difficult of layups his takes, most being consted by multiple defenders. I'm not worried at all. Just some more finesse and strength and we'll have ourselves a Jimmy-lite who can get even better.
As for playmaking, he's not a natural point guard and of course there will be bad decisions, but it's not like he's throwing random passes, it's just about execution.

The thing that's been most annoying for me are his free throws.
He's at 20ppg over the past 16 games, 46% FG is fine, even 30% 3PT is fine considering he takes 5 per game and a lot are well behind the line, but 68% FT is absolutely not fine.

Free throws -> reliable pull up jumpshot from around FT line -> 3pt would be my order of priority for Castle over the summer.

[LeBowen]

(unless you're Doncic playing for Real Madrid)

Even Doncic averaged 21ppg on 42/32/71 in his rookie season.
His and Castle's FG% and FT% is actually identical, Castle is 3% worse from 3PT.

Interestingly enough, Castle averages more FTs per 36.
I don't think people realize how good Castle will be in a couple of years.
Maybe not superstar level, but I don't think Jimmy/Jrue comparisons are unrealistic.

[scott]

I think he's been playing within his role, it's just that he's been missing too many easy layups at the rim. Still, as someone pointed out recently (maybe it was even you), his efficency is great considering the difficult of layups his takes, most being consted by multiple defenders. I'm not worried at all. Just some more finesse and strength and we'll have ourselves a Jimmy-lite who can get even better.
As for playmaking, he's not a natural point guard and of course there will be bad decisions, but it's not like he's throwing random passes, it's just about execution.

The thing that's been most annoying for me are his free throws.
He's at 20ppg over the past 16 games, 46% FG is fine, even 30% 3PT is fine considering he takes 5 per game and a lot are well behind the line, but 68% FT is absolutely not fine.

Free throws -> reliable pull up jumpshot from around FT line -> 3pt would be my order of priority for Castle over the summer.

He's definitely playing within his current role, I'm saying that wouldn't be his role if Wemby and Fox were healthy. Basically, his USG wouldn't be nearly as high and thus his efficiency (or currently lack thereof) wouldn't be so glaring (because it's actually not bad for a rookie, it's just on higher volume so the absolute number of misses are amplified).

His ability to get to the stripe while he's still getting a rookie whistle is definitely a secret weapon, one I hope our next coaching staff learns how to exploit. Fox also does a good job of getting to the line (22nd in the NBA this season, which was actually a "down" year for him, and his FTA/gm dropped off once he was forced into this two PG lineup with CP3 here)... I'm looking forward to all these free points were going to get in the future.

[John B]

Even Doncic averaged 21ppg on 42/32/71 in his rookie season.
His and Castle's FG% and FT% is actually identical, Castle is 3% worse from 3PT.

Interestingly enough, Castle averages more FTs per 36.
I don't think people realize how good Castle will be in a couple of years.
Maybe not superstar level, but I don't think Jimmy/Jrue comparisons are unrealistic.

Do you think he’ll play the Manu role next year? I have a feeling CP3 will be with the Spurs the next couple of years, especially if it’s certain that Wemby is coming back and the FO will be ALL IN on his 3rd year. CP3 will start with Fox, Wemby, and who knows they’ll bring in from the draft, trade or free agency. But I think Castle is best suited to play the Manu role at least for now.

[LeBowen]

Do you think he’ll play the Manu role next year? I have a feeling CP3 will be with the Spurs the next couple of years, especially if it’s certain that Wemby is coming back and the FO will be ALL IN on his 3rd year. CP3 will start with Fox, Wemby, and who knows they’ll bring in from the draft, trade or free agency. But I think Castle is best suited to play the Manu role at least for now.

If CP3 is back as a starter next season, then we have nothing to talk about. It would be a disaster of monumental proportions.
Castle should play young Jimmy role with the starters and backup playmaker role when he's with the bench unit.

[scott]

If CP3 is back as a starter next season, then we have nothing to talk about. It would be a disaster of monumental proportions.
Castle should play young Jimmy role with the starters and backup playmaker role when he's with the bench unit.

Not just next season... but a COUPLE OF YEARS with CP3... kill me now.

[John B]

If CP3 is back as a starter next season, then we have nothing to talk about. It would be a disaster of monumental proportions.
Castle should play young Jimmy role with the starters and backup playmaker role when he's with the bench unit.

Is there anything wrong with playing the Manu role? Manu was a HOFer coming off the bench.

[LeBowen]

Is there anything wrong with playing the Manu role? Manu was a HOFer coming off the bench.

There's nothing wrong with a player coming off the bench, but that's not a role for Castle.
Being the first option isn't his best role yet and he's the most well-rounded utility player we have.
Point of attack defender, good rebounder for his position, a good secondary playmaker.

Fox/Devin backcourt would be awful and Devin has shown time and time again he's better when he has the ball instead of being just a spot-up shooter.
If we're talking current roster without major changes, it's a no-brainer who should be the 6th man. At least that's how I see things.

[scott]

Is there anything wrong with playing the Manu role? Manu was a HOFer coming off the bench.

Manu was a rare breed. We need to stop trying to shoehorn every player we draft into some historical reference point.

But beyond that, there are practical ramifications for why a top draft pick isn't going to be overly receptive to being asked to be a bench player - that player is trying to earn his second contract, and his earning ability is going to be severely diminished if he's a bench player. Josh Giddey asked for a trade from OKC when they asked him to be a bench player for this very reason. These guys aren't going to be super excited to cost themselves $100MM so we can do something stupid like have CP3 start next to De'Aaron Fox. Why would you want this anyway? That is a horrible backcourt construction to begin with.

[scott]

There's nothing wrong with a player coming off the bench, but that's not a role for Castle.
Being the first option isn't his best role yet and he's the most well-rounded utility player we have.
Point of attack defender, good rebounder for his position, a good secondary playmaker.

Fox/Devin backcourt would be awful and Devin has shown time and time again he's better when he has the ball instead of being just a spot-up shooter.
If we're talking current roster without major changes, it's a no-brainer who should be the 6th man. At least that's how I see things.

I don't think a Fox/Devin backcourt would be awful, if were paired with the right forwards and a system that kept Devin from dribbling the air out of the ball... but it is certainly suboptimal when you have Castle, and it's obvious Devin should be the 6th man.

But John B seems to be suggesting that we cater to the CP3/Fox backcourt, which is insane.

[DAF86]

i would also give your left nut for that

That sounds Diddy.

[spurraider21]

That sounds Diddy.
D’elia

[Gibbz]

Bovada has Steph -750 for ROY with two weeks left in the season. Sarr at +850, Risacher at +1400, Edey at +3000, and Wells at +4500 to close out the top 5.

Very recently Steph had gotten to -180 with Jaylen Wells around +350. Wells has really had an awful stretch.

[dn0774]

Sarr has narrowed the gap a bit in recent weeks, his counting stats are looking decent and his shot is falling more consistently...still rough efficiency overall like Castle. Risacher having some big games down the stretch this season could also make him an interesting candidate as he is a bit more efficient.

That being said, Castle is in the drivers seat and will have plenty of playing time to finish strong, up to him to capitalize.

[spursistan]

Spurs just lost a couple of tight, competitive games against the two best teams in the East (at full strength) with Castle essentially functioning as our #1 option. He will/should never assuming that role for us, but it is valuable experience for him as far as getting acclimated to a potential Ginobili role leading the bench mob or an amalgam of non-Wemby/Fox starters + bench unit.

Castle in March (16 games): 20.2/4.4/4.9 on 46.4 FG%/30.5 3PT%/68.7 FT%

[spursistan]

^^ Free throw shooting needs to be addressed asap..So much is left on the table for someone who is likely going to feast at the line..

[SupremeGuy]

As much as he deserves it, I don't think he'll get it.

Wemby deserved DPOY last year.

Jokic is having the greatest season of all time this year and probably won't get it either.

We have AI now, screw the human bias.

[exstatic]

As much as he deserves it, I don't think he'll get it.

Wemby deserved DPOY last year.

Jokic is having the greatest season of all time this year and probably won't get it either.

We have AI now, screw the human bias.

Who will, then? Last year, Rudy was a clear DPOY second place, and would have cleanly won in other seasons.

No one else has been good from start to finish.

[baseline bum]

As much as he deserves it, I don't think he'll get it.

Wemby deserved DPOY last year.

Jokic is having the greatest season of all time this year and probably won't get it either.

We have AI now, screw the human bias.

Steph is a pretty heavy favorite right now. Don't think he has it in the bag yet but he'd have to fall off hard these last nine games and Risacher would have to get super hot.

[John B]

TNT was all crazy about Castle during the AS selling how good he is. He leads the major stats. He got it.

[spurraider21]

Bad day for his DPOY stock. Dud for castle and Risacher playing great in a win against a playoff team

[Raven]

Bad day for his DPOY stock. Dud for castle and Risacher playing great in a win against a playoff team

DPOY? agree with everything else though. Risacher making trae young look like a bball player is quite the feat tbh

[spurraider21]

Meant ROTY obviously given the thread

[Robz4000]

Might come down to Castle getting ROTY or Spurs getting a better draft pick tbh.

[spurraider21]

timvp draft preview saying analytics had Risacher as a second round grade, supposedly he was a very poor athlete, etc etc

yeah castle has more upside but this version of Risacher for the last few months is basically the perfect complementary modern SF

not that we are disappointed by castle but if we had Risacher we would know we had our future SF and wouldn’t be a question of who he does or doesn’t fit with

[exstatic]

Risacher really only showed he had a pulse after Jalen Johnson went down.

[Robz4000]

timvp draft preview saying analytics had Risacher as a second round grade, supposedly he was a very poor athlete, etc etc

yeah castle has more upside but this version of Risacher for the last few months is basically the perfect complementary modern SF

not that we are disappointed by castle but if we had Risacher we would know we had our future SF and wouldn’t be a question of who he does or doesn’t fit with

Would still rather have Castle tbh. At this point we're debating whether he's more like Butler or Holiday.

[spurraider21]

Would still rather have Castle tbh. At this point we're debating whether he's more like Butler or Holiday.
Yeah I’m glad we got castle as well. Just saying there were some really weird takes about Risacher. Mr body said he’d rather draft furphy than him :lol

[itzsoweezee]

timvp draft preview saying analytics had Risacher as a second round grade, supposedly he was a very poor athlete, etc etc

yeah castle has more upside but this version of Risacher for the last few months is basically the perfect complementary modern SF

not that we are disappointed by castle but if we had Risacher we would know we had our future SF and wouldn’t be a question of who he does or doesn’t fit with

Yes, the 3 is by far the hardest position to fill in the NBA. That Atlanta team basically has a full squad when Johnson comes back next year.

[spurraider21]

Yes, the 3 is by far the hardest position to fill in the NBA. That Atlanta team basically has a full squad when Johnson comes back next year.
He’s 19 and already playing at a good level for a starting 3. He’ll get better too. In a redraft i still think castle goes 1 but Risacher is the easy #2

[baseline bum]

He’s 19 and already playing at a good level for a starting 3. He’ll get better too. In a redraft i still think castle goes 1 but Risacher is the easy #2

I don't think he's an easy #2 given Sarr has been coming alive lately and still has the best upside of anyone in that draft. Honestly I could see Castle, Sarr, and Risacher going in any of the six possible orders on a redraft. Curious if you'd take Sheppard over McCain, Buzelis, or Ware given what we have seen this season.

[ismael-robert]

You're all forgetting mccain...the likely roy if not injured n was available to spurs...what could we have done or been with him

[baseline bum]

You're all forgetting mccain...the likely roy if not injured n was available to spurs...what could we have done or been with him

No way I'm taking McCain over Castle and would much rather have Fox than have chosen McCain #8.

[ismael-robert]

No way I'm taking McCain over Castle and would much rather have Fox than have chosen McCain #8.

Why not mccain at 4? Castles defense? Can't wait to see them head to head next season

[baseline bum]

Why not mccain at 4? Castles defense? Can't wait to see them head to head next season

Castle's size, strength, athleticism, and defense give him way more upside than McCain IMO.

[spurraider21]

I don't think he's an easy #2 given Sarr has been coming alive lately and still has the best upside of anyone in that draft. Honestly I could see Castle, Sarr, and Risacher going in any of the six possible orders on a redraft. Curious if you'd take Sheppard over McCain, Buzelis, or Ware given what we have seen this season.
id still take him over Ware for sure. He didnt really have much opportunity this year tbh, didnt get a chance to play through growing pains. rockets were playing to win all year and had solid backcourt depth so they didnt have incentive to play him for the sake of playing him. but if he was as good as i thought, he'd have found a way onto the floor more i guess.

buzelis has really been on a tear lately.

[John B]

I’m just glad Risacher, Sarr and Reed were all chosen before Castle, and not giving Wright the chance to mess up that 4th pick. I’d still pick Castle over anyone. The kid has natural dawg in him, much advanced for his age.

[Ice009]

It's all about how you finish. I just want Steph to finish the season strong, especially against these upcoming good teams.

Tim and Manu picked up their games heading into the playoffs and started playing better. Steph has been pretty inefficient these past couple of weeks. Yes, he's a rookie, but I'm holding him to a pretty high standard. He's getting more shots, but his efficiency seems to be going down. He's missing shots near the rim, missing free throws, and his 3 ball isn't looking as good as it was for a stretch there a month or two ago. Also, just for his own confidence heading into next season, I want him to finish the season well regardless of whether or not the Spurs made the playoffs.

[baseline bum]

Risacher shot up to +750 on Bovada, tied with Sarr for second in the race. Castle still remains steady at -750.

[ffadicted]

Risacher shot up to +750 on Bovada, tied with Sarr for second in the race. Castle still remains steady at -750.

Zac has had a good stretch but unless someone is looking at heavy recency bias, Steph should still be the runaway winner here, I don't see how anyone could reasonably go another direction and justify it if lookin at the whole season or even just 2025

[Raven]

Zac has had a good stretch but unless someone is looking at heavy recency bias, Steph should still be the runaway winner here, I don't see how anyone could reasonably go another direction and justify it if lookin at the whole season or even just 2025

team success tbh

[Ice009]

I'm going to have to somewhat agree here. Team success with him coming on strong to finish the season could make it a lot closer than I thought it would be even just two weeks ago.

[ambchang]

Historically team success doesn’t really factor into the ROY race. Unless the rookie is so good he single handed oh turns around the team, but if that’s the case the stats would pop anyways.

[Ice009]

I'll defer to you guys on this because apart from the past two seasons with Victor and Steph, I've never really followed the rookie of the year as the Spurs didn't have anyone in the running since TD's rookie year. I think (at the time), the Spurs had the biggest turnaround in NBA history. Not sure if the 2008 Celtics broke that record for amount of wins from one season to the next.

[ismael-robert]

Mccain is to castle as Hali is to Dev. Mccain was already a true pure shooter who we didn't have to teach to shoot and that includes free throws...castle just makes layups. Mccain was 3 level scorer

[scott]

Castle wins March ROTM for the Western Conference. Risacher for the EC.

[spurraider21]

yep

1907145965750157642

[scott]

Wonder how many votes Johnny Furphy got, tbh

[spurraider21]

Wonder how many votes Johnny Furphy got, tbh
still would have been a better SRP than Juan Nunez :lol

[TD 21]

Castle is going to win it and should based on historical precedent (counting stats, narrative, more of a glamor role), but let's be honest, if the Spurs were the Hawks and Risacher were surging for a play-in/off team, we'd be claiming Castle is an empty calories chucker, with counting stats the product of mpg/usage on a bad team in (another) lost season.

[BatManu20]

1907145965750157642

[SupremeGuy]

Castle is going to win it and should based on historical precedent (counting stats, narrative, more of a glamor role), but let's be honest, if the Spurs were the Hawks and Risacher were surging for a play-in/off team, we'd be claiming Castle is an empty calories chucker, with counting stats the product of mpg/usage on a bad team in (another) lost season.Wasn't that the argument against Wemby last year?

I'm telling you guys, the sooner we let AI make these decisions the better.

[TD 21]

Wasn't that the argument against Wemby last year?

I'm telling you guys, the sooner we let AI make these decisions the better.

Wembanyama was a special case, as an all-time rookie who was already arguably the highest impact defender in the league.

This is a weak class without a traditional consensus option.

[exstatic]

Wasn't that the argument against Wemby last year?

I'm telling you guys, the sooner we let AI make these decisions the better.

Rookie of the year is usually a high draft pick, which means a shit, tanking team. I’ve never heard of weighted winning for this award.

[exstatic]

1907145965750157642

Seeing that even with his late push, Risacher can’t match Steph’s numbers.

[John B]

Rookie of the year is usually a high draft pick, which means a shit, tanking team. I’ve never heard of weighted winning for this award.

It helps when DRob and Timmy both had the highest turnaround records. Especially DRob who inherited a mediocre team, when they had Cadillac, Grampa Jones, Paspalj, Wingate among the names.. I will never forget because we just moved to San Antonio and was forced to watch the Spurs. While my cousin kept telling me about this freak naval officer who was just finishing his tour!! A 7’1 muscular freak who moved like a gazelle, and the rest was history.

[TowelWaver]

It helped that they also drafted Sean Elliott that year and brought in vets Terry Cummings and Maurice Cheeks (soon to be traded for Rod Strickland)--they put a solid blend of youth and experience together that year. That said, none of it would have worked if Robinson weren't a superstar from Day 1 (which he absolutely was).

[John B]

It helped that they also drafted Sean Elliott that year and brought in vets Terry Cummings and Maurice Cheeks (soon to be traded for Rod Strickland)--they put a solid blend of youth and experience together that year. That said, none of it would have worked if Robinson weren't a superstar from Day 1 (which he absolutely was).

I wander what record they got this year if Wemby didn’t get hurt, with the additions of CP3, Barnes and a rookie stud. If we are to compare to DRob’s rookie year. Cheeks was already out of his prime, Cummings saw better years, yet they finished 56-26 from 21-61 the previous year.

[DAF86]

xE9JIJBaFZQ?si=dmAF5SnE4ItgozW4

One more assist would have sealed the deal for RoY, imho. Has any rookie gotten a triple double this season?

[couchman]

Castle needs to go visit that shooting coach again.
His shot has regressed and been laying a lot of bricks for the last few weeks.

[CGD]

Castle needs to go visit that shooting coach again.
His shot has regressed and been laying a lot of bricks for the last few weeks.

That’s what the summer is for, but right now im very pleased that he’s experimenting with his middy game. That seems like an intentional new focus.

[Raven]

he's been legitimately embarrassing, especially on the defensive end it seems like every bucket comes off his man, i don't know what is his problem, maybe he just understand the assignment well and he'll be locked in next year. Hoping.

[couchman]

I love the kid and I’m worried that he’s learning some bad habits as a tank commander.
I want to see him refocus on the defensive end.

[couchman]

Risacher vs Castle remains an interesting debate.
Castle seems the obvious ROTY but is he the better prospec?
Risacher is proving to be a high floor 3&D wing, which is one of the more valuable archetypes in the league, and something the Spurs are desperately lacking. However, he benefits from Trae a lot and his ceiling is limited unless he develops some on-ball skills.
Castle is showing a much higher ceiling as an on-ball creator, but also a much lower floor if he can’t get his ugly shooting figured out.His fit is less obvious now with Fox onboard.
Both look like promising defenders.

If we’re re-drafting today I bet the Hawks would pick Zacharie again and so would many teams. Sarr would still get some looks. Castle would move up above Sheppard for most teams and above Risacher and Sarr for a good handful of teams.

[SpursBills]

Risacher is shooting 39% from 3 with Trae vs 25% without. He’s got an AST:TO < 0.9 without Trae. For a team without talent who doesn’t have a top 3 playmaker give me Castle every time.

[LeBowen]

Risacher is proving to be a high floor 3&D wing, which is one of the more valuable archetypes in the league, and something the Spurs are desperately lacking. However, he benefits from Trae a lot and his ceiling is limited unless he develops some on-ball skills.

It's a valuable archetype, but as you said he's got a very limited ceiling if he can't create anything for himself.
Recently he got really hot from 3pt, but going from left to right corner his percentages in 5 areas behind the arc are 44-28-36-22-36%, he's a left corner merchant. Usually the easiest spot for right handed players to shoot from. Don't get me wrong, that's also valuable, but he was 28% from 3pt up until February and is 41% since. We'll have to see how sustainable it is.
And there's a big difference between being a corner 3pt shooter and someone who's an off the ball threat with his movement.


Castle is showing a much higher ceiling as an on-ball creator, but also a much lower floor if he can’t get his ugly shooting figured out.His fit is less obvious now with Fox onboard.

Castle is a way more valuable archetype because there aren't many guards with his combination of size, playmaking and defensive potential out there.
Two best teams in the league have those players in their lineup, every team wants at least one.

Yes, his shot is ugly, but it's also no worse than most star guards who came into the league as bad shooters.
His ability to get to the line is something that's not seen often with rookie guards and sometimes that's the most valuable skill in the game because everyone has bad shooting nights, but if you can get to the line you can always mitigate it.


If we’re re-drafting today I bet the Hawks would pick Zacharie again and so would many teams. Sarr would still get some looks. Castle would move up above Sheppard for most teams and above Risacher and Sarr for a good handful of teams.

Sarr still has the highest ceiling, but odds of him reaching his full potential aren't that high, imo.
Risacher's best case scenario looks to be Mikal Bridges, which is very good, but I'm not sure it's worthy of a #1 pick. Castle definitely has a higher ceiling.
But as you said, Risacher is a safer player to bet on and Spurs will need their development staff to help Castle with his issues.

[Raven]

I love the kid and I’m worried that he’s learning some bad habits as a tank commander.
I want to see him refocus on the defensive end.

he's now only ahead on barnes in worst defensive rating on the team, with meaningful minutes.. has the same blocks per minute than tre jones and chris paul ... very worrisome.

[rascal]

Castle doesn't seem to be learning when to go at a player on a drive to the basket and when not to.

Every game he's getting stuffed at the rim or turning it over because he can't get a good shot off against a bigger player.
I do like the aggressiveness but need to see an improvement with less turnovers when he takes it to the basket.

[John B]

Roaches is dependent on Trae to facilitate for him. He will be a costly 3nD player. Castle can facilitate, get himself to the line, POA defender. Give me Castle anytime. I like that he’s taking chances of what he can do out there. The off-season will be the time to tweak and work on his shots. Castle will have a much higher ceiling than a 3nD specialist. Don’t take me wrong, I like Risacher but will choose Castle over him every time.

[Ice009]

Castle doesn't seem to be learning when to go at a player on a drive to the basket and when not to.

Every game he's getting stuffed at the rim or turning it over because he can't get a good shot off against a bigger player.
I do like the aggressiveness but need to see an improvement with less turnovers when he takes it to the basket.

Yeah, his recognizing when to attack and when not it hasn't improved. He's just trying to bull his way in there. I was hoping he'd get a bit smarter and vary his attacks a little bit. Mix in short jumpers, maybe a floater when going against shot blockers instead of trying to force his way in and get blocked. I love his aggressiveness, but was hoping he'd vary his attack more and know when to use what.

[scott]

I wander what record they got this year if Wemby didn’t get hurt, with the additions of CP3, Barnes and a rookie stud. If we are to compare to DRob’s rookie year. Cheeks was already out of his prime, Cummings saw better years, yet they finished 56-26 from 21-61 the previous year.

Cummings in DRob's rookie year was still prime TC. He was 28 years old, a year removed from an All-Star appearance and All NBA 3rd Team, and his first season with the Spurs was statistically as good as any season prior. He averaged 22.4 pts/8.4 reb/2.7 ast/1.4 stl/0.6 blks on .481 shooting. The year before (when he was an All Star) he was 22.9/8.1/2.5/1.3/0.9 on .467. This was still on par with his "best" season as a pro, which came his 3rd year in the league when he was All NBA 2nd Team and finished 5th in MVP voting. He put up 23.6/9.1/2.9/1.5/0.8 on .496.

That first season with San Antonio was on par with all of those, he was just overshadowed by a superstar in David Robinson. DRob + TC was an amazing 1-2 combo. And it was paired with a 23 year old Willie Anderson averaging 15.7ppg, a 23 year old Rod Strickland averaging 14.2/8.0, and a rookie Sean Elliott. What a team that was, and a lot of fun too. It was a damn shame there were injury circumstances and the Rod Strickland fiasco that derailed our potential. I still wonder what would have happened had Rod not lost his damn mind in Game 7 versus Portland in the WC Semis.

[BatManu20]

1908183059587006826

[John B]

Cummings in DRob's rookie year was still prime TC. He was 28 years old, a year removed from an All-Star appearance and All NBA 3rd Team, and his first season with the Spurs was statistically as good as any season prior. He averaged 22.4 pts/8.4 reb/2.7 ast/1.4 stl/0.6 blks on .481 shooting. The year before (when he was an All Star) he was 22.9/8.1/2.5/1.3/0.9 on .467. This was still on par with his "best" season as a pro, which came his 3rd year in the league when he was All NBA 2nd Team and finished 5th in MVP voting. He put up 23.6/9.1/2.9/1.5/0.8 on .496.

That first season with San Antonio was on par with all of those, he was just overshadowed by a superstar in David Robinson. DRob + TC was an amazing 1-2 combo. And it was paired with a 23 year old Willie Anderson averaging 15.7ppg, a 23 year old Rod Strickland averaging 14.2/8.0, and a rookie Sean Elliott. What a team that was, and a lot of fun too. It was a damn shame there were injury circumstances and the Rod Strickland fiasco that derailed our potential. I still wonder what would have happened had Rod not lost his damn mind in Game 7 versus Portland in the WC Semis.

Man I hated that Portland team Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Petrovic, Buck Williams, Cliff Robinson. That was as badass as the Isiah Thomas Pistons. I think Kersey ring with Spurs but Porter missed out I think.

[Mr. Body]

Near triple double again.

[baseline bum]

Cummings in DRob's rookie year was still prime TC. He was 28 years old, a year removed from an All-Star appearance and All NBA 3rd Team, and his first season with the Spurs was statistically as good as any season prior. He averaged 22.4 pts/8.4 reb/2.7 ast/1.4 stl/0.6 blks on .481 shooting. The year before (when he was an All Star) he was 22.9/8.1/2.5/1.3/0.9 on .467. This was still on par with his "best" season as a pro, which came his 3rd year in the league when he was All NBA 2nd Team and finished 5th in MVP voting. He put up 23.6/9.1/2.9/1.5/0.8 on .496.

That first season with San Antonio was on par with all of those, he was just overshadowed by a superstar in David Robinson. DRob + TC was an amazing 1-2 combo. And it was paired with a 23 year old Willie Anderson averaging 15.7ppg, a 23 year old Rod Strickland averaging 14.2/8.0, and a rookie Sean Elliott. What a team that was, and a lot of fun too. It was a damn shame there were injury circumstances and the Rod Strickland fiasco that derailed our potential. I still wonder what would have happened had Rod not lost his damn mind in Game 7 versus Portland in the WC Semis.

I wonder what would have happened if McCombs wasn't such a cheap bastard and brought Strickland back instead of letting him walk for nothing to get replaced by Scrubby Del Negro. Gotta think the 95 WCF would have been a whole lot different with 1990s Tony Parker able to get buckets when they doubled and tripled Big Dave. Also Brickowski for Paul Pressey was a disaster. Best contribution Pressey ever made to the Spurs was holding Pop back from the refs in the early 00s when he'd pretend he was gonna go run up and curbstomp them.

[baseline bum]

Man I hated that Portland team Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Petrovic, Buck Williams, Cliff Robinson. That was as badass as the Isiah Thomas Pistons. I think Kersey ring with Spurs but Porter missed out I think.

I don't think Petrovic was there yet but JFC did Terry Porter skullfuck the Spurs every time they matched up. Probably a bit as retribution for the Spurs passing him up to draft Alfredrick Hughes. Cotton Fitzsimmons might be one of the most disappointing coaches the Spurs ever had but he pushed for drafting Porter and instead the normally awesome Bob Bass fucked up and took Aldredrick the Great.

[Manu-of-steel]

Castle with near triple double for the 2nd time. I think he will be able to do this on a nightly basis once he gets stronger(he's already a bully as a rookie). IMO, he's a good rebounder for his size, can rack up assists and points. Im excited for next year!

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think Petrovic was there yet but JFC did Terry Porter skullfuck the Spurs every time they matched up. Probably a bit as retribution for the Spurs passing him up to draft Alfredrick Hughes. Cotton Fitzsimmons might be one of the most disappointing coaches the Spurs ever had but he pushed for drafting Porter and instead the normally awesome Bob Bass fucked up and took Aldredrick the Great.
I didn't think he was there either but I looked it up and apparently that was his first year.

To think, that may have been the Spurs' least disappointing postseason until Timmy arrived. I think Nellie gave everyone the formula for beating Dave in the playoffs the following season.

[BatManu20]

Was Castle robbed of his first career Triple-Double? You be the judge.

1908343607863521360

[exstatic]

Castle with near triple double for the 2nd time. I think he will be able to do this on a nightly basis once he gets stronger(he's already a bully as a rookie). IMO, he's a good rebounder for his size, can rack up assists and points. Im excited for next year!

I think it was his third in like two weeks.

Previous two times before last night(points/rebounds/assists)

4/2 15/15/9
3/27 22/11/8

[CGD]

Yeah, his recognizing when to attack and when not it hasn't improved. He's just trying to bull his way in there. I was hoping he'd get a bit smarter and vary his attacks a little bit. Mix in short jumpers, maybe a floater when going against shot blockers instead of trying to force his way in and get blocked. I love his aggressiveness, but was hoping he'd vary his attack more and know when to use what.

This will improve. Also this team has no real offense these days and he’s one of the few guys who can break his player down once a play devolves to a half court set.

I’m definitely enjoying the middy package he’s experimenting with of late. Will serve him well.

[Knoxxx]

Castle's ability to dribble and create contact to draw ticky tack annoyance fouls and free throws is priceless. And often the fouls are well beyond ticky tack, he drops a shoulder into the defender like a linebacker and makes them feel pain. Through all of that he rarely ever charges because he is quick enough and has the handles to make the defender move and be off balance even when they are in position.

That is a crucial skill when you are trying to stop another team's run or cannot afford scoreless possessions down the stretch. Castle is one of those guys that can ugly a game up and make a living at the FT line when necessary.

His finishing needs to continue to improve, and yes he does dumb stuff like drive into a crowded lane or into shotblockers while barely jumping. Or boneheaded passes, settling for a long 3 too often, etc. But usually his passing and decisions are very on point and well beyond any typical 20-y/o rookie. The BBIQ is obviously there, well beyond several of our rotation players that have been here for some years with little to any improvement in that regard.

This award is obviously now his:

"Castle is the favorite in Vegas for legitimate reasons. He ranks first among all the first-year guys in points, field goals, shots, free throws, and steals, as well as third in minutes and tied for third in assists. "

Kia Rookie Ladder: Stephon Castle closing in on award in final push | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-april-2-2025-edition)

[John B]

Was Castle robbed of his first career Triple-Double? You be the judge.

1908343607863521360

I don’t know if you can consider that a rebound when a missed shot didn’t touch the rim or the backboard, nor was it deflected.

But I think Castle will get plenty of opportunities for a triple-double with his size and nose for the ball.

[John B]

Was Castle robbed of his first career Triple-Double? You be the judge.

1908343607863521360

I don’t know if you can consider that a rebound when a missed shot didn’t touch the rim or the backboard, nor was it deflected.

But I think Castle will get plenty of opportunities for a triple-double with his size and nose for the ball.

[Mr. Body]

I'm not sure how a person can say he's not improving when to attack when he's learning how to draw fouls to a high degree. He's establishing that he deserves a whistle. It's clearly better than early in the season.

[exstatic]

I don’t know if you can consider that a rebound when a missed shot didn’t touch the rim or the backboard, nor was it deflected.

But I think Castle will get plenty of opportunities for a triple-double with his size and nose for the ball.

It was blocked, and that was a rebound.

[John B]

It was blocked, and that was a rebound.

If that was deflected, Garland would be awarded a block then yes it’s a rebound. But if it wasn’t recorded a block, then there’s no rebound.

[Splits]

It was blocked, and that was a rebound.

things we know, if exstatic says it the opposite is true


https://i.ibb.co/bjgqVzcv/image.png

https://i.ibb.co/qYgjj9G6/image.png

[exstatic]

things we know, if exstatic says it the opposite is true


https://i.ibb.co/bjgqVzcv/image.png

https://i.ibb.co/qYgjj9G6/image.png

Even if it wasn’t blocked, it was a shot attempt, and every shot attempt has to have a corresponding rebound, either individual or team. If you throw up a shot that hits the side of the rim and goes out of bounds untouched, that is a team rebound for the defense.

So, either that was blocked/tipped, or it was an airball. Either way, that is a Castle rebound.

[Dex]

Even if it wasn’t blocked, it was a shot attempt, and every shot attempt has to have a corresponding rebound, either individual or team. If you throw up a shot that hits the side of the rim and goes out of bounds untouched, that is a team rebound for the defense.

So, either that was blocked/tipped, or it was an airball. Either way, that is a Castle rebound.

I wanted him to get his trip-dub, but also understand why the stat-keeper wouldn't call it a "rebound" 23 feet from the basket on a shot that never had any chance of getting there.

If a player heaves the ball from 70 feet and it's nowhere near the basket but a player catches it...do they deserve a rebound?

Obviously up for interpretation, but it is what it is. Still a great game from Castle.

[Splits]

Even if it wasn’t blocked, it was a shot attempt, and every shot attempt has to have a corresponding rebound, either individual or team. If you throw up a shot that hits the side of the rim and goes out of bounds untouched, that is a team rebound for the defense.

So, either that was blocked/tipped, or it was an airball. Either way, that is a Castle rebound.

It was an attempted strip followed by an attempted pass. In no universe was that a shot attempt. Every day a player goes up for a shot attempt, realizes it isn't there, and tries to dump the ball off. Stop being an idiot

[ace3g]

https://x.com/AirlessJordan/status/1909040253140349143

https://x.com/AirlessJordan/status/1909037909321408742

[spursparker9]

Is it me or that Refs are now giving Castle the whistle?

He has the potential to average the high FTA as Harden or SGA

[CGD]

Excited to see what tricks he adds to his bag this summer, as well as the work on the jumper. You know Steph is a worker

[John B]

Is it me or that Refs are now giving Castle the whistle?

He has the potential to average the high FTA as Harden or SGA

Winning the ROY will maximize that even more, and Castle knows and will exploit that every opportunity. His mid-game is coming along. Already averaging 22 pts as starter and main option the last 4 games, he will explode next year. Watch out.

[BatManu20]

1909229796237701324

[spurraider21]

he's not wrong. risacher had picked up some legitimate steam after putting up a strong march averaging an efficient 16ppg as his team was stacking wins on their way to a play-off push (9-5 record in march).

but castle has just continued to put up numbers while risacher has only been decent in april.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Already averaging 22 pts as starter and main option the last 4 games, he will explode next year. Watch out.

Maybe.

He has got to improve his efficiency. Plus/minus is routinely kicking his ass, and the shooting percentages are part of that.

[BatManu20]

1909299055852650952

[cutewizard]

https://youtu.be/0Jjyvwm-IVA?si=Bbue_tja10uDMRgC

[John B]

I like that he was targeting Curry’s lack of defense. The kid is a natural bully :lol

If he’s already like this in his rookie year, the more he will be as he gets NBA stronger, plus he’s starting to get the SGA-Harden foul treatment from the refs. It’s going to be ridiculously entertaining to watch.

[spursparker9]

Castle rookie year > SGA and Harden rookie year tbh

[exstatic]

Castle rookie year > SGA and Harden rookie year tbh

SGA wasn’t ROTY. Luka won it for the 2018-2019 season.

[LeBowen]

Castle rookie year > SGA and Harden rookie year tbh

Let's look at relevant starting guards around the league.

Worse rookie seasons than Castle: Garland, Jrue, Derrick, Brown, Brunson, Suggs, Herro, Maxey, SGA, FVV, Jamal Murray, Harden, Conley, Lavine, DDR, Booker, Scoot, Dejounte.
Better rookie seasons than Castle: Mitchell ( 21 before his first NBA game), Lillard (22 before his first NBA game), Cade, Trae, Luka, Curry, Morant, Kyrie, Fox.
Around the same level as Castle: Haliburton, Lamelo.

The only guards/playmakers who were better than Castle in their rookie year were all guaranteed offensive engines and Castle is easily a better defender than all of them.
Considering that his projected playstyle and offensive output should be very reliable, I don't see how he misses out on all-star and all-NBA selections in his prime, after Fox falls off.

[John B]

The only reason Castle didn’t have better stats was Wright limiting his minutes tbh.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Let's look at relevant starting guards around the league.

Worse rookie seasons than Castle: Garland, Jrue, Derrick, Brown, Brunson, Suggs, Herro, Maxey, SGA, FVV, Jamal Murray, Harden, Conley, Lavine, DDR, Booker, Scoot, Dejounte.
Better rookie seasons than Castle: Mitchell ( 21 before his first NBA game), Lillard (22 before his first NBA game), Cade, Trae, Luka, Curry, Morant, Kyrie, Fox.
Around the same level as Castle: Haliburton, Lamelo.

The only guards/playmakers who were better than Castle in their rookie year were all guaranteed offensive engines and Castle is easily a better defender than all of them.
Considering that his projected playstyle and offensive output should be very reliable, I don't see how he misses out on all-star and all-NBA selections in his prime, after Fox falls off.

Gonna need that shot to start falling or else he'll look like Westbrook with less bounce against decent playoff teams, but if he can become a respectable shooter, guy should be very formidable.

[DAF86]

Gonna need that shot to start falling or else he'll look like Westbrook with less bounce against decent playoff teams, but if he can become a respectable shooter, guy should be very formidable.

He needs to at least develop a reliable middie ala Tony Parker. That should be enough for him to become the HOTS with shooters around him.

[Mr. Body]

He's getting to the rim constantly despite not being a deep threat. He's too big and strong. Still messes up here or there, but already is establishing his whistle. He's going to be a beast if he gets those floaters and pull-ups down. If he gets a deep threat down, he'll be fearsome.

[LeBowen]

already is establishing his whistle.

I think it's already been established.

Per 36 stats:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025_per_minute.html

Sory by FTA, Castle is #19 in the entire league.
Out of those 18 ahead of him, 9 are 6'9 or taller.
He's already one of the best guards in the league at getting to the line.

5.7 FTA per 36 minutes, the same as Randle and KD, .1 behind KD, KAT, DDR and Mitchell.

What he needs to work on is his FT routine.
He's got third worst percentage in top20 FTA after Giannis and RJ Barrett. Everyone else has at least 78%.

[rjv]

i'm starting to worry that some of these 'analytics' nerds are going to vote for risacher because he has less turnovers and a better shooting percentage. but risacher isn't running point. the other thing i keep hearing is that the hawks are still playing in meaningful games. but the hawks would have a crappy record if they were in the West. this may be much closer than some people think.

[Ice009]

I actually was making that argument for Risacher about 3 weeks ago (saying that he's playing better as the season goes along, and not only that, playing well in games that mean more than what Castle is playing in), but really, their record isn't that far off of the Spurs', and they're in the East. Nah. No way, on that argument anymore. Steph's the rookie of the year easily. I wasn't super happy with Steph's efficiency at that point, but he's pulled away the past two weeks or so after Riscaher started getting closer. He's been running the team, making good passes and getting teammates involved, and the Spurs have been in most of these games while missing two huge pieces of the team in Victor and De'Aaron.

[exstatic]

i'm starting to worry that some of these 'analytics' nerds are going to vote for risacher because he has less turnovers and a better shooting percentage. but risacher isn't running point. the other thing i keep hearing is that the hawks are still playing in meaningful games. but the hawks would have a crappy record if they were in the West. this may be much closer than some people think.

While analytics are used for drafts and trades, the NBA media are still dinosaurs who base their votes on counting stats.

[rjv]

While analytics are used for drafts and trades, the NBA media are still dinosaurs who base their votes on counting stats.

i wasn't describing the criteria being used. i was describing the voters that i am starting to see indicating that they'll be voting for risacher. and, yes, some of them will be using counting stats as one criteria. others will argue that the hawks are playing in more meaningful games.

[exstatic]

i wasn't describing the criteria being used. i was describing the voters that i am starting to see indicating that they'll be voting for risacher. and, yes, some of them will be using counting stats as one criteria. others will argue that the hawks are playing in more meaningful games.

Well, no one thought it would be unanimous, but Steph should win. You always have obscure voters who want to be contrarian and have the hot takes. They are a loud, vocal minority, but they are in fact a minority.

[rjv]

Well, no one thought it would be unanimous, but Steph should win. You always have obscure voters who want to be contrarian and have the hot takes. They are a loud, vocal minority, but they are in fact a minority.

i hope so. windhorst is undecided. bentamps is voting for Risacher and ESPN has Castle at #2. i hope they're still watching. risacher was awful the other night and castle has had two solid back-to-back outings.

[exstatic]

i hope so. windhorst is undecided. bentamps is voting for Risacher and ESPN has Castle at #2. i hope they're still watching. risacher was awful the other night and castle has had two solid back-to-back outings.

Tim Bontemps is one of those hot take idiots I was describing. This is all created drama. If the race is pretty much decided, and it is, they generate fewer clicks. They need to bait the hook.

[montgod]

Tim Bontemps is one of those hot take idiots I was describing. This is all created drama. If the race is pretty much decided, and it is, they generate fewer clicks. They need to bait the hook.

He sounds like it since Risacher is super one dimensional. He has definitely approved but not on the same level as Castle in any regard.

[scott]

There will be a bias against Castle because there are voters who just don't like the idea of the Spurs having back to back ROTYs, probably the same guys who don't like the idea of a rookie winning DPOY last year. It's not an anti-Spurs bias, per se, but rather a bias towards idiotic "old school" thinking. A significant portion of those who vote for these NBA awards (perhaps even a majority) are people who's opinions no one should really give two fucks about. For example, the San Antonio Express-News' own Jeff McDonald.

I don't know who these people are who put this together (their Twitter info, email and Reddit handle are in the link), but they do a good job of compiling this list of who they think are the 100 media member voters: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VL-ZaCaHl7Iu4v4SA10agG1He0mBsVz6eWIE76Mqoq0/edit?gid=643451732#gid=643451732

[dn0774]

Coming into the league as a 3 and D guy is just such an easier role to walk into and that fact should be taken into account. Obviously good 3 and D's are extremely important, but its not functionally a difficult role to learn compared to lead/secondary ball handler. Now how that should be taken into account (if at all) in an awards race for RotY is open for interpretation. As a (biased) Spurs fan I give the nod to Castle for his overall counting stats advantage but his bad efficiency can't be ignored. I think the race is way closer than Castle thinks it is.

Castle's ability to get to the line is becoming a wild card in this race that needs to be acknowledged. Drawing fouls is often one of the biggest predictors of offensive star potential and seeing that in Castle has been an exciting development. If he can get a few seasons of upticks on his shooting splits and further hone/discover his favorite spots his efficiency will take care of itself.

[scott]

Coming into the league as a 3 and D guy is just such an easier role to walk into and that fact should be taken into account. Obviously good 3 and D's are extremely important, but its not functionally a difficult role to learn compared to lead/secondary ball handler. Now how that should be taken into account (if at all) in an awards race for RotY is open for interpretation. As a (biased) Spurs fan I give the nod to Castle for his overall counting stats advantage but his bad efficiency can't be ignored. I think the race is way closer than Castle thinks it is.

Castle's ability to get to the line is becoming a wild card in this race that needs to be acknowledged. Drawing fouls is often one of the biggest predictors of offensive star potential and seeing that in Castle has been an exciting development. If he can get a few seasons of upticks on his shooting splits and further hone/discover his favorite spots his efficiency will take care of itself.

I agree it's a lot closer, and just as you point out the 3&D role is a lot easier to come into than the role Castle was thrown into... one could counter that it's a lot easier to pad your stats on a bad team than it is on a team contending for postseason play (never mind only 4 games separate these teams and it's not Castle's fault the team's two best players had season ending injuries)... so for me I always go to this tiebreaker for ROTY:

Of all the players who have put up performances worthy of consideration (of which I think there are only really two, Castle and Risacher), which one would I rather have as a key building block of my team going forward. To me, that is clearly Castle.

[spurraider21]

castle will win running away imo. wont be unanimous but i dont think it will be particularly close

[Seventyniner]

There will be a bias against Castle because there are voters who just don't like the idea of the Spurs having back to back ROTYs, probably the same guys who don't like the idea of a rookie winning DPOY last year. It's not an anti-Spurs bias, per se, but rather a bias towards idiotic "old school" thinking. A significant portion of those who vote for these NBA awards (perhaps even a majority) are people who's opinions no one should really give two fucks about. For example, the San Antonio Express-News' own Jeff McDonald.

I don't know who these people are who put this together (their Twitter info, email and Reddit handle are in the link), but they do a good job of compiling this list of who they think are the 100 media member voters: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VL-ZaCaHl7Iu4v4SA10agG1He0mBsVz6eWIE76Mqoq0/edit?gid=643451732#gid=643451732

I don't think ROTY has the same anti-B2B bias that other awards have, likely because it's not the same player both times. It's only been 9 years since the Wolves did it with Wiggins and KAT. The voter base probably hasn't changed all that much since then.

[spursistan]

Lowe and Goldsberry pick Castle for ROTY. Both are extremely high on his future prospects.

https://x.com/ringer/status/1910446098201927883

[ambchang]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/44601305/2024-2025-nba-rookie-rankings-top-20-players-season-stephon-castle-zaccharie-risacherM
ESPN got risacher. I don’t necessarily agree with the rationale around efficiency (castle is a creator and asked to carry the team offensively for a big chunk of the season) and TO (castle is a PG while risacher is a finisher).

Risacher is a nice 3D guy, but he does have limitations. Castle is playing a more difficult role with better output. It is hard to have risacher over castle.

[exstatic]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/44601305/2024-2025-nba-rookie-rankings-top-20-players-season-stephon-castle-zaccharie-risacherM
ESPN got risacher. I don’t necessarily agree with the rationale around efficiency (castle is a creator and asked to carry the team offensively for a big chunk of the season) and TO (castle is a PG while risacher is a finisher).

Risacher is a nice 3D guy, but he does have limitations. Castle is playing a more difficult role with better output. It is hard to have risacher over castle.

Click bait.

[stephen jackson]

Risacher just put up 38, this is gonna be a toss up

[ace3g]

https://x.com/AirlessJordan/status/1910532742489792612

[Ice009]

If they give it to Risacher, all the award voting has gone down the shitter for most of the awards.

Victor was DPOY last year and he should have also gotten it this season despite those rules about minimum games played. When you're far and away the best defender in the NBA (it's not like anyone else was going to outplay him for it if he was able to finish the season) like he is, but unfortunately had a serious medical condition where he couldn't finish the season, I don't think you should be penalised for that when you've played close to the required amount of games. If the competition is closer like ROTY, fair enough giving it to the guy that played more games, but when you're a run away winner, I don't see why something out of your control like an injury or serious medical condition should take the award away. I think they should at least lower the amount of games required to win it (maybe to 50 IMO), because if there's a run away winner, it's crappy that he gets to miss out on it.

[BatManu20]

1910447698324365750

[Obstructed_View]

Castle will get screwed just like he did in the dunk contest. It will keep him motivated during the summer. He's gonna be a beast.

[exstatic]

Risacher just put up 38, this is gonna be a toss up

Against Brooklyn’s gleague team. Also, it’s one game. Where has this been all year?

[John B]

Castle got this in the bag. The media is just giving a little drama to sell, and you bitches are already affected.

[RC_Drunkford]

Let's look at relevant starting guards around the league.

Worse rookie seasons than Castle: Garland, Jrue, Derrick, Brown, Brunson, Suggs, Herro, Maxey, SGA, FVV, Jamal Murray, Harden, Conley, Lavine, DDR, Booker, Scoot, Dejounte.
Better rookie seasons than Castle: Mitchell ( 21 before his first NBA game), Lillard (22 before his first NBA game), Cade, Trae, Luka, Curry, Morant, Kyrie, Fox.
Around the same level as Castle: Haliburton, Lamelo.

The only guards/playmakers who were better than Castle in their rookie year were all guaranteed offensive engines and Castle is easily a better defender than all of them.
Considering that his projected playstyle and offensive output should be very reliable, I don't see how he misses out on all-star and all-NBA selections in his prime, after Fox falls off.

dayumn:reading

[spurraider21]

:cry mean media is going to give to risacher :cry

christ :lol... castle is going to win, and the pre-emptive crying is just sad. as if atlanta is the hotspot of NBA media/narrative rigging

[rascal]

Castle will win ROY

[rjv]

If they give it to Risacher, all the award voting has gone down the shitter for most of the awards.

Victor was DPOY last year and he should have also gotten it this season despite those rules about minimum games played. When you're far and away the best defender in the NBA (it's not like anyone else was going to outplay him for it if he was able to finish the season) like he is, but unfortunately had a serious medical condition where he couldn't finish the season, I don't think you should be penalised for that when you've played close to the required amount of games. If the competition is closer like ROTY, fair enough giving it to the guy that played more games, but when you're a run away winner, I don't see why something out of your control like an injury or serious medical condition should take the award away. I think they should at least lower the amount of games required to win it (maybe to 50 IMO), because if there's a run away winner, it's crappy that he gets to miss out on it.

what pisses me off about wemby getting shafted out of the DPOY last season is having to hear Windhorst actually admit that his voting for Gobert was a mistake and that he should've voted for Victor.

[rjv]

Against Brooklyn’s gleague team. Also, it’s one game. Where has this been all year?

not only that, ATL was deliberately feeding the ball to risacher just to pad his stats. the whole game was a joke.

[baseline bum]

Castle will get screwed just like he did in the dunk contest. It will keep him motivated during the summer. He's gonna be a beast.

Bovada had Steph -100,000 for ROY a few hours ago. Who the hell is going to put up $100k to try to win $100? :lol

[cutewizard]

https://youtu.be/kXq-bnyrNGE?si=RUNRM5cSwlEd8eZa

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/f0Dr9pTUbIc?feature=shared

Draymond and Baron Davis singing praises

[John B]

It’s like having #1 picks b2b. Let’s see how Castle pans out compared to his draft class. I think he has the best all-around game and possibly the #1 pick in a re-draft imo

[Obstructed_View]

Bovada had Steph -100,000 for ROY a few hours ago. Who the hell is going to put up $100k to try to win $100? :lol
People who bet on something that is voted on are short bus special, tbh.

[spursistan]

This is the progression of someone who will scratch All-Star level sooner than later. Rookie guards being inefficient is par for the course. I expect him to level up in that regard. An uptick in his free-shooting alone would be huge boost.

Spurs Era on X: "Stephon Castle only got better with time in his rookie season Last 40 games: 18.0 PPG | 4.9 RPG | 4.7 APG | 44.8% FG Last 25 games: 19.3 PPG | 5.2 RPG | 5.6 APG | 45.6% FG Last 10 games: 18.2 PPG | 6.0 RPG | 7.0 APG | 43.3% FG Predict his sophomore season stats ⬇️ https://t.co/GD4lb8iqHP" / X (https://x.com/EraSpurs/status/1911580328176533666)

[Mr. Body]

Notable to me was how Castle's non-scoring production really shot up at the end of the season. Yeah, his usage was really high and won't stay quite at that level, and his TOs went up accordingly, but his rebounds and assists were up significantly.

[John B]

It hasn’t dawned on me but Castle might possibly be the best player of his class. Definitely the most all-around. And Spurs was lucky he was available at pick 4. It’s like having b2b #1 picks.

[cutewizard]

https://youtu.be/e7mXd9qXtiM?si=Se9iukhmkxYdGM_A

[spursistan]

Bontemps is a certified Spurs hater. Not sure what's more annoying, his attempt at posing as a basketball maven and not just a mere reporter, or his grating voice and the delivery of it all .


This won't be close. Castle will be the 2025 ROTY. You can quibble about the advanced stats and some of it is a function of who he is playing with. His metrics started to go south when he shared the court less and less with Wemby even before the latter shutdown (a pattern seen with CP3 too). But Stephon has been by far the most consistent rookie this season. I don't think he even encountered the proverbial 'rookie wall' through out. Having that kind of 'floor' for his game is a reassuring thing


JeffGSpursKENS5 on X: "Looks like Stephon Castle may not be the unanimous Rookie of the year Award winner, #porvida fans... Bontemps voted for Risacher... #nba #sanantonio #gospursgo (via @CroesFire ) https://t.co/qL7QsEosZS" / X (https://x.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1912275926886363225)

[scott]

Here is this year's awards tracker for anyone interested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

[ZeusWillJudge]

If the Spurs hadn't gotten Castle into the starting lineup, the ROY very likely could/would have gone to Risacher. He (Risacher) had a big February/March. But with the minutes Castle got in the SL, there's no reasonable chance that they give it to anyone other than Castle.

One thing most people haven't paid much attention to, but it has some implications going forward. Castle's FG% and 3P% are a bit concerning. BUT...97.5% of Risacher's 3P attempts were assisted, and 73% of his 2PA were assisted. Compare that to Castle: 79% of his 3PA and only 46% of his 2PA were assisted. You see that Castle was forced to play a much different role, and not just a different position. I'm pretty optimistic that he, more than most, will really benefit from having better players on the floor. De'Aaron Fox being on the floor will get Castle better, less-contested looks, and his shooting numbers will increase even without him getting better (which he will).

Another glaring difference is that Risacher got 3.8 FTA per 100 possessions, while Castle drew 7.7 FTA per 100. That's a huge difference, and it shows that Castle forced defenders to respect him and foul. And as bad as Castle's FT shooting was at times, even I was shocked to see that at the end of the season he averaged .724 from the line. Still not enough, but it's better than I would have expected after what seemed like a lot of .500 games from the line.

[Knoxxx]

Bontemps is a certified Spurs hater. Not sure what's more annoying, his attempt at posing as a basketball maven and not just a mere reporter, or his grating voice and the delivery of it all .


This won't be close. Castle will be the 2025 ROTY. You can quibble about the advanced stats and some of it is a function of who he is playing with. His metrics started to go south when he shared the court less and less with Wemby even before the latter shutdown (a pattern seen with CP3 too). But Stephon has been by far the most consistent rookie this season. I don't think he even encountered the proverbial 'rookie wall' through out. Having that kind of 'floor' for his game is a reassuring thing


JeffGSpursKENS5 on X: "Looks like Stephon Castle may not be the unanimous Rookie of the year Award winner, #porvida fans... Bontemps voted for Risacher... #nba #sanantonio #gospursgo (via @CroesFire ) https://t.co/qL7QsEosZS" / X (https://x.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1912275926886363225)

Who he was playing with is key. Just the last few games how many times did he hit Biyombo in the lane with a great pass only for him to brick the shot with some half ass ugly hook flip shot?

[Mr. Body]

IMO he had it wrapped up All-Star weekend.

[timtonymanu]

The moment when LeBron talked to him after one of their games was also a big boost for him. Draymond also spoke highly of him and knowing Fox was excited to play with Castle just shows his pull around the league.

It’s too bad he couldn’t get a play in game to really show his potential. No more losing seasons. I really hope the spurs move quickly with their coaching decision. It’s time to get to work.

[rjv]

no wonder McMahon is always making fun of Bontemps.

[spurraider21]

castle shows up in more than one spot here

1912587947871785036

[TDomination]

Here is this year's awards tracker for anyone interested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Nice, Castle with majority

[spurraider21]

also assuming Sam Venecie gets a vote, he's also said he has Castle as ROTY... he doesnt appear on that spreadsheet. maybe he doesnt have a vote, but that would surprise me

[baseline bum]

Here is this year's awards tracker for anyone interested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Nice, 12/14 now for Steph, with Bontemps voting Risacher and Andy Larsen from Salt Lake Tribune voting Jalen Wells as the two non Castle votes.

[Sugus]

So, practically official now, huh? Back-to-back ROTYs?

What a great pick Castle turned out to be. I really liked Sheppard before the draft and still believe he can become a good player, but I'm extremely happy we got Castle instead. The "PG question" seemed like a very worrisome problem a year ago, and now it's beyond solved between Fox and him.

Now, if we could only make a trade-steal for one of those coveted 3&D SFs out there...

[Knoxxx]

17 of 20 now for Steph

[CGD]

17 of 20 now for Steph

Hilarious that people thought this would be close….

[spurraider21]

Hilarious that people thought this would be close….
it was just crybaby's prematurely whining about ":cry media hates us, so unfair :cry"

[ismael-robert]

Still mccains if healthy

[John B]

Still mccains if healthy

:ban::ban::ban:

[Manu-of-steel]

With Zach Risacher's horrendous last game against the Heat(1 for 11 shooting)- I think Castle should have the ROY in the bag.

[Robz4000]

With Zach Risacher's horrendous last game against the Heat(1 for 11 shooting)- I think Castle should have the ROY in the bag.

He had it in the bag weeks ago tbh. Even if he didn't, votes were collected before the play-in tournament.

[CGD]

Still mccains if healthy

We’ll never know. Jaylen Wells also has a hot start to the season before hitting a nasty rookie wall (and that was well before his injury).

[Ice009]

I didn't watch McCain play, but was following his stats earlier in the season and he did look good. He shot better from the field and also looked like he can shoot the 3 too (Is he a pretty good shooter scorer?). The rest of his numbers weren't great, but scoring wise, he looked like he was going to have a really good season.
No idea if it would have continued, though, but if it did, he may have won it. Spurs likely would have had a better record, and I wonder if the voters would have given it to McCain if Philly finished with a similar record to what they finished this season with without him.

[exstatic]

I didn't watch McCain play, but was following his stats earlier in the season and he did look good. He shot better from the field and also looked like he can shoot the 3 too (Is he a pretty good shooter scorer?). The rest of his numbers weren't great, but scoring wise, he looked like he was going to have a really good season.
No idea if it would have continued, though, but if it did, he may have won it. Spurs likely would have had a better record, and I wonder if the voters would have given it to McCain if Philly finished with a similar record to what they finished this season with without him.

He was playing a lot of minutes in place of Maxey,and that would not have continued.

[jesterbobman]

I think he'll win (obviously), but I think in terms of impact on winning, other guys (Edey, Ware, Clingan) have been more significant to winning THIS YEAR. I'd take Castle as the best bet long term as a star, given the size and creation, but the shooting was a real weakness that limited his impact this year. It's one swing skill, that can be improved, and with the ticked off he probably moves towards an all star / all star adjacent level wing sized creator.

Ultimately, kind of a debate over whether Rookie of the Year is best player in the year, or, some mix of best player / best bet to become a star...Castle has (at a different level) the same kind of argument Durant had over Horford, relative to those guys. As a rookie, inefficient and high usage, so negative impact compared to efficient role players - but seemingly a much better bet to become a star.

[baseline bum]

it was just crybaby's prematurely whining about ":cry media hates us, so unfair :cry"

https://airalamo.com/brace-impending-robbery-stephon-castle-unanimous-rookie-year-bid
Brace for impending robbery of Stephon Castle's unanimous Rookie of the Year bid

Stephon Castle is about to be hosed out of what should be an obvious unanimous Rookie of the Year victory over the rest of the 2024 draft class. The award hasn't been announced, but the voters have cast their ballots, and some have seen fit to reveal their selections ahead of time.

:cry :cry :cry

[exstatic]

https://airalamo.com/brace-impending-robbery-stephon-castle-unanimous-rookie-year-bid
Brace for impending robbery of Stephon Castle's unanimous Rookie of the Year bid

Stephon Castle is about to be hosed out of what should be an obvious unanimous Rookie of the Year victory over the rest of the 2024 draft class. The award hasn't been announced, but the voters have cast their ballots, and some have seen fit to reveal their selections ahead of time.

:cry :cry :cry

I actually don’t care about unanimous. There’s always some idiot waiting to wreck that for clicks,like with Ichiro.

[John B]

It’s not even close

[Seventyniner]

Castle should run away with it but not like Wemby did. I can understand Castle not being unanimous.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/NBA/status/1914087994644152815

[Dex]

Spurs need to throw the bag at Engelland to get him to come back and work with Steph.

Pay him a zillion dollars if he wants it, I got five on it

[Raven]

Spurs need to throw the bag at Engelland to get him to come back and work with Steph.

Pay him a zillion dollars if he wants it, I got five on it

castle's problem isn't his shooting, it's his defence.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs need to throw the bag at Engelland to get him to come back and work with Steph.

Pay him a zillion dollars if he wants it, I got five on it

Chip is going to get some chips. Why would he leave

[Ice009]

castle's problem isn't his shooting, it's his defence.

If Castle's defense is his problem, then what about most of the other players on the team?

[Dex]

Chip is going to get some chips. Why would he leave

The only reason for him to leave would be more money (and maybe he still has some fondness of the Spurs, who knows).

Which is why they'd have to back up the Brinks truck.

[RC_Drunkford]

Chip just knew the ship was sinking and left just like Udoka, Messina and Becky. It wasn't hard to see that the old man lost it.

[ismael-robert]

Wemby shooting just fine without chip

[Raven]

If Castle's defense is his problem, then what about most of the other players on the team?

he' only ahead of malaki in defensive rating. so, they are all better. But unlike most of them, castle can actually be good, in theory.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Spurs need to throw the bag at Engelland to get him to come back and work with Steph.

Pay him a zillion dollars if he wants it, I got five on it

Chip aint coming back as long as Pop is still around dragging this franchise down the drain

[Brazil]

If Castle's defense is his problem, then what about most of the other players on the team?

Castle defense has been bad for a while after a promissing debut.. after Victor was ruled out it seems he focused more on his offense or Victor defense is that good

[exstatic]

Castle defense has been bad for a while after a promissing debut.. after Victor was ruled out it seems he focused more on his offense or Victor defense is that good

After Victor was ruled out, he had no paint defender to lean on. That’ll put a dent in anyone’s defensive metrics.

[rjv]

After Victor was ruled out, he had no paint defender to lean on. That’ll put a dent in anyone’s defensive metrics.

especially when you're drawing the toughest defensive assignment almost every game.

[Brazil]

After Victor was ruled out, he had no paint defender to lean on. That’ll put a dent in anyone’s defensive metrics.

I agree tbh.. I don't think he lost all his defense capabilities all of a sudden, Victor anchoring the paint helps everybody. We may have overestimated those defense capabilities a bit though