Devin Vassell has to go asap.

[Obstructed_View]

Terrible team basketball player. Doesn't play defense. Doesn't pass. Doesn't show up in the clutch. Trade him while people think he has value. Maybe a smart coach can figure out a way to make him not suck. :elephant

[LeBowen]

He'll look good in purple, tbh.
Can't ever trust a player with Kobe tattoo.

[spursistan]

IF this is what he is now : a wildly inconsistent often-injured, 3rd tier shooting guard, i don't mind for the Spurs to start looking for a better option to surround Wemby via trade..

[objective]

Disagree, I think he's usable

But he's not a #2. Get him with 2 better scorers like adding Fox to the team and get a better coach and I think he'll be better

I won't cry if he's the one sent out for Fox provider the rest of the package isn't that bad, but he needs to play off better players and put in better position with coaching

[scott]

Him bumbling his way to a bad step back 3 with Champ wide open in the corner was pretty illustrative of who Devin is. He has severe tunnel vision and main character syndrome.

[timtonymanu]

Castle made him expendable. Even though Castle is still a little raw, he already has a higher ceiling than Dev.

This team as is isn’t making the play-in. I don’t see a need to keep the same roster together. It’s time to put a team around Wemby. Thank you for your loyalty, dev and Keldon, but it’s time to move on.

[paperboy77]

Terrible team basketball player. Doesn't play defense. Doesn't pass. Doesn't show up in the clutch. Trade him while people think he has value. Maybe a smart coach can figure out a way to make him not suck. :elephant

Been saying that about him and said that about Kelden when it was applicable. Spurs for some reason just fall in love with "doing the right thing".

[slick'81]

Vassell definitely seems to have plateaued

[BackHome]

I think a big reason is him coming off foot surgery as any foot injury is tough as they take a punishment from running and jumping on court. I remember we had that young kid from Oklahoma who played good but then broke his foot and that pretty much ended his career.

[NASpurs]

The dude is a poser. He's never impressed me and I won't feel sad if/when he's gone from the team tbh

[SpurSpike]

Its not Castle who made him expendable, its Champagnie. Champ is like Vassell except he has better shot selection less tunnel vision and on a better contract.

[cutewizard]

Does he show some chemistry with Castle? Did you notice guys?

[onechance87]

vassell making his stock worst.Ive always said hes a role player.

[Dex]

Calm down. It's one game FFS

[spursistan]

Its not Castle who made him expendable, its Champagne. Champ is like Vassell except he has better shot selection less tunnel vision and on a better contract.
i think it is the combination of both Castle & Champagnie that makes it more palatable to move on from him now while the value is still there. Him being a china doll is also another incentive. I feel like the rest of the season will be a sort of referendum on him being part of their long term future

[100%duncan]

Vassell’s inconsistency makes him more of a #3 than a #2 guy on a contender. This dude can score the bucket anyway he wants to but he just has bad decision making sometimes.

[onechance87]

Vassell’s inconsistency makes him more of a #3 than a #2 guy on a contender. This dude can score the bucket anyway he wants to but he just has bad decision making sometimes.

hes not even a 3rd star.Guy is so average.Not sure why fans were having mental breakdowns about needing him to start.Guy does not deserve it.

[timtonymanu]

Calm down. It's one game FFS

I mean Vassell has been this way for seasons now. He’s just too inconsistent as a 2nd option to offset some of his flaws. I don’t think we should trade him tomorrow but his ceiling has been reached as a player.

[cutewizard]

I mean Vassell has been this way for seasons now. He’s just too inconsistent as a 2nd option to offset some of his flaws. I don’t think we should trade him tomorrow but his ceiling has been reached as a player.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree

Whereas we have just barely scratched Castle's........

So, we have Wemby, Castle and the next draft picks? We are still in the middle phase of our rebuilding

Hope we get more talented pieces

[MannyIsGod]

Devin played bad tonight but you guys do this to everyone who's not a clear #1. I can already see you all doing this to Castle in 2 years. The Spurs need to add talent not ship away guys just because they're not clear cut number ones. I'm not opposed to moving him in the right deal, but you rarely see trades where you send off a guy like Devin and end up with more talent in the trade.

[onechance87]

Devin played bad tonight but you guys do this to everyone who's not a clear #1. I can already see you all doing this to Castle in 2 years. The Spurs need to add talent not ship away guys just because they're not clear cut number ones. I'm not opposed to moving him in the right deal, but you rarely see trades where you send off a guy like Devin and end up with more talent in the trade.

well vassell is the highest paid player on this team.

[MannyIsGod]

well vassell is the highest paid player on this team.

How is that relevant? He's the highest paid player on a team that is in the middle of a rebuild who has been struggling to meet the salary floor in recent years. Who fucking cares?

[onechance87]

How is that relevant? He's the highest paid player on a team that is in the middle of a rebuild who has been struggling to meet the salary floor in recent years. Who fucking cares?

stop with the excuses bro.You got guys like cam johnson,lavine and lamelo ball and other players with worst teams still playing real good with rebulding.
Vassell is just not good.

[rascal]

Vassell is up and down, inconsistent and often injured. He isn't an all star level player. He might come out next game and drop 30 and most will want to keep him.

Reality is had the spurs won this game there wouldn't be so much Vassell hate. This was a close game and could have gone either way just like some of the recent spurs wins.

This board over reacts with losses and over reacts after wins. This wasn't going to be an easy game on the road and the spurs hung tough for the most part although they were gifted getting Embiid thrown out.

[MannyIsGod]

stop with the excuses bro.You got guys like cam johnson,lavine and lamelo ball and other players with worst teams still playing real good with rebulding.
Vassell is just not good.

Making this my last response to you because you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about but...

Lavine and Lamelo are on max extensions and make substantially more money than Devin. Cam Johnson makes a bit less, but historically Devin has has put up better numbers and is much younger. The Nets aren't rebuilding, they are TANKING, hence why they traded away their best player in the off season and will like trade away Johnson as well and a big factor in his numbers being inflated above his historical value.

But so fucking what? The point wasn't that there aren't better players out in the NBA than Devin or that he was amazing but rather that his contract hasn't stopped the Spurs from doing a god damn thing and is irrelevant.

[onechance87]

Vassell is up and down, inconsistent and often injured. He isn't an all star level player. He might come out next game and drop 30 and most will want to keep him.

Reality is had the spurs won this game there wouldn't be so much Vassell hate. This was a close game and could have gone either way just like some of the recent spurs wins.

This board over reacts with losses and over reacts after wins. This wasn't going to be an easy game on the road and the spurs hung tough for the most part although they were gifted getting Embiid thrown out.

well we dont need our highest paid player to be so inconsistent this much.We got alot of role players that do that.But thats the difference between them.
They are role players.Vassell is supposed to be our second best player.Just shows how bad this roster is,When our second best player is getting outplayed
by other role players like champ,sochan and rookie castle.

[rascal]

well we dont need our highest paid player to be so inconsistent this much.We got alot of role players that do that.But thats the difference between them.
They are role players.Vassell is supposed to be our second best player.Just shows how bad this roster is,When our second best player is getting outplayed
by other role players like champ,sochan and rookie castle.

Spurs have an entire team of non all star role players outside of Wemby.

[baseline bum]

Devin played bad tonight but you guys do this to everyone who's not a clear #1. I can already see you all doing this to Castle in 2 years. The Spurs need to add talent not ship away guys just because they're not clear cut number ones. I'm not opposed to moving him in the right deal, but you rarely see trades where you send off a guy like Devin and end up with more talent in the trade.

Kind of feels like a natural reaction after hearing Fox sounding like he might want out and Rich Paul wanting to steer clients to play next to Wemby when Vassell would be the most natural trade chip to get that deal accomplished. I worry the Spurs will hold onto him too long like they did with Keldon who now has minimal trade value. Vassell is far and away the best shooter on the team but his inability to stay healthy and him being a straight defensive turnstile make him a prime candidate for roster churn. I don't think we should really get attached to anyone outside Wemby and probably Castle in the middle of a rebuild.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Devin played bad tonight but you guys do this to everyone who's not a clear #1. I can already see you all doing this to Castle in 2 years. The Spurs need to add talent not ship away guys just because they're not clear cut number ones. I'm not opposed to moving him in the right deal, but you rarely see trades where you send off a guy like Devin and end up with more talent in the trade.

People 115% will do this to Castle if Castle does not greatly improve his jump shot in the next two years.

Devin has gotten better since he started, but it’s arguably not enough to be super married to him. Keldon hasn't changed much from probably his third year in the league. I think spurfan is somewhat rightly tired/bored of players just hanging around Spurslandia and being great locker neighbors but not especially good hoopers.

[SayTown]

I think a big reason is him coming off foot surgery as any foot injury is tough as they take a punishment from running and jumping on court. I remember we had that young kid from Oklahoma who played good but then broke his foot and that pretty much ended his career.

Yeah James Anderson, he was looking solid until the injury although the metatarsal he broke is known as a career ender whereas the one Devin broke players usually come back from but it's still a tough injury for a basketball player.

[spursparker9]

Calm down. Vassell can stay.

I can live with him missing shots. The real issue is dump Champ making half ass passes and not protecting the ball after getting rebounds.

[Uriel]

Devin does give me Kobe vibes when he has the ball. And I don’t mean that as a compliment.

[Uriel]

Yeah James Anderson, he was looking solid until the injury although the metatarsal he broke is known as a career ender whereas the one Devin broke players usually come back from but it's still a tough injury for a basketball player.
Same with Beaubois.

[Obstructed_View]

"It's one game" :lmao

[Ocotillo]

This board over reacts with losses and over reacts after wins.

Oh yeah.

[SupremeGuy]

Castle being removed from the starting lineup was bogus.

[KingKev]

I’ve never been high on Vassell and thought these last few years he was largely a product of his environment where he got more touches than he would elsewhere in the NBA. His one saving grace is he can at times be an efficient scorer when given touches. I don’t think he should be getting those touches as we build out this roster though.

I always thought it was laughable that he was deemed “untouchable” both by PATFO and this board. The real question is who actually wants him? I think his value is considerably less than what this board thinks.

[CGD]

Dev’s long term replacement will come from this draft.

[The Truth #6]

I disagree that his contract is not an issue. Being paid the highest on the team gives him the green light to go into his Kobe mode. But, he pretty much needs a screen every time to operate. Not great for a scorer. Many of his shots just look like terrible shots historically but in the 3p era I guess it's sort of the new norm. I suppose it comes down to if his shots go in or not. That's what you get. Still, I see a huge disconnect between what he thinks his role is and what others think it should be.

[CGD]

I’ve never been high on Vassell and thought these last few years he was largely a product of his environment where he got more touches than he would elsewhere in the NBA. His one saving grace is he can at times be an efficient scorer when given touches. I don’t think he should be getting those touches as we build out this roster though.

I always thought it was laughable that he was deemed “untouchable” both by PATFO and this board. The real question is who actually wants him? I think his value is considerably less than what this board thinks.

I think Thibbs would love to have him. Cleveland would have been a great fit next to Spider, but they’ve committed to Garland (really wanted Garland here damn it). Hell, he’d be awesome in Philly if that crew were whole, or Minni next to Ant.

Bottom line, I think there would be a number of teams that would want him. It’s the spurs who need to stop being so precious about him.

[Pauleta14]

Castle being removed from the starting lineup was bogus.

That's the pb with having a rookie coach who never played at the highest level.

A former player or more exp coach would have adapted his strategy or principles with what Castle showed that game

[KobesAchilles]

Him bumbling his way to a bad step back 3 with Champ wide open in the corner was pretty illustrative of who Devin is. He has severe tunnel vision and main character syndrome.
lol well one person has been saying he needs to learn how to play basketball better… but then I got called a hater by some and was told his bb iq is elite and the dude already knows everything about basketball…

btw this thread is hilarious. Never change Spurstalk

[exstatic]

Calm down. It's one game FFS

Right? It’s not like he’s finishing at the rim at 84%, or shooting 40% from beyond the arc, or anything. His Ts% of 59.4 is higher than Fox’s 58.1.

[exstatic]

Kind of feels like a natural reaction after hearing Fox sounding like he might want out and Rich Paul wanting to steer clients to play next to Wemby when Vassell would be the most natural trade chip to get that deal accomplished. I worry the Spurs will hold onto him too long like they did with Keldon who now has minimal trade value. Vassell is far and away the best shooter on the team but his inability to stay healthy and him being a straight defensive turnstile make him a prime candidate for roster churn. I don't think we should really get attached to anyone outside Wemby and probably Castle in the middle of a rebuild.

People been hating Vassell long before this latest news break.

[LeBowen]

I'm not going to lie, I thought that most of his struggles were due to playing on horrible team and having to do things he's not comfortable with.
This roster is supposed to be perfect for his role, he doesn't have to do anything other than not be a turnstile and take good shots, but he can't even do that.

[Leetonidas]

I don't think he needs to go necessarily but I wouldn't keep him out of trade talks if the right offer presents itself. He is a poor man's Middleton at best right now and he hasn't shown a ton of improvement over the last 2 seasons. I know he's dealing with injury issues and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but him being made of glass is part of the problem

[Pauleta14]

ONLY his fragility makes Devin expandable.

Basketball wise, you all need to chill the fuck up :lol

With a little bit of empathy, you'd be able to realize what he's going through since the start of the season and the importance for a player to know and be comfortable with his role.

Tbh I don't know what is his role and I'm not sure he does either, but he's still our best shooter and top4 player in this roster.

I've read some INSANE takes like he's expandable because... Champ can do the same for cheaper! :lmao Champ makes Devin look like Kobe

(I can't believe how much I defend a player I'm not even fond of :lol)

[LeBowen]

I don't think he needs to go necessarily but I wouldn't keep him out of trade talks if the right offer presents itself. He is a poor man's Middleton at best right now and he hasn't shown a ton of improvement over the last 2 seasons. I know he's dealing with injury issues and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but him being made of glass is part of the problem

As I said before, shooting guards who don't do much else than actual shooting are a dying breed in today's league.
They either need to be good creators or good defenders, just being the youtube highlights bucket getter doesn't cut it anymore.

There's not a single traditional shooting guard starting on top teams in the league.
Middleton averaged 5.5 assists in his prime and was a positive defender, not to mention he's 6'8.
Jamal Murray owes about 70% of his career earnings to Jokic.

[couchman]

Vassell is a solid and useful player on a very friendly contract.
His strengths are useful! You don’t find a ton of players who can score in the high teens on 47/40/82 shooting splits.
His weaknesses are also obvious.
He shuts down the offense sometimes, his defense is only ok, and he’s injured a lot.
He’s not a #2 and would ideally be the #3 offensive option behind two star players.
At only 15% or less of the cap in his last three contract years he is a valuable asset.
I’d be ok using him in a trade to acquire a star but we shouldn’t make a move just to “get ride of him” or whatever

[Dex]

He shuts down the offense sometimes, his defense is only ok, and he’s injured a lot.


This is my biggest concern with Vassell.

Is he perfect? No...all of our players can't be like MJ or Timmy out there.

But he has shown that he is a baller...a guy who can find his shot at all three levels. Every team needs those.

His biggest problem is that he can't stay healthy consistently which is hurting his progression.

[cd98]

If Devin were available, every other team in the league would be interested.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm not going to lie, I thought that most of his struggles were due to playing on horrible team and having to do things he's not comfortable with.
This roster is supposed to be perfect for his role, he doesn't have to do anything other than not be a turnstile and take good shots, but he can't even do that.
Welcome brother :lol

[RC_Drunkford]

Gotta be a bit more patient with a player who missed training camp tbh. In my opinion he‘s still too timid, especially when he‘s out there with the bench. I‘d like to see a little more aggressiveness. Right now he‘s not the Vassell from last year, but I hope he rounds into form. He absolutely has to average 20 PPG on efficient shooting to be considered a piece.

[z0sa]

He's barely hitting the SL again. Of all the players outside of Wemby, there's only 2 that should be untouchable: Castle and Vassell.

[The Truth #6]

He hunts for his shot excessively and pounds the air out of the ball more than I like. He's an overachiever, which is awesome. But needs to reduce or change part of his expectations. This is all outside of him being injured or coming off the bench. To me his approach to the game has not changed. He's a great shooter, very skilled. But he's not good enough to be dancing around with the ball to then only shoot a 23 foot fadeaway.

It's the opposite of the beautiful game and team basketball. I think some of his patterns got set while we were tanking, and now he's still playing that way.

[scott]

lol well one person has been saying he needs to learn how to play basketball better… but then I got called a hater by some and was told his bb iq is elite and the dude already knows everything about basketball…

btw this thread is hilarious. Never change Spurstalk

Our Devin Truthers Club is a small, but elite crew. We must continue to spread our gospel, even in the face of Devin Believers and Imbeciles.

[scott]

Threw a bonus comparison up there, just for fun.

https://i.ibb.co/0MtVz6N/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-4.png

[rankingtear]

He has to play winning basketball, but cost is zero right now to find out if he can. He is probably the only one right now I am confident can get his shots off in a playoff series consistently.

[Spurs Homer]

Vassell should be in the game after wemby goes to the bench…this will keep wemby away from watching vassell ignore him and dribble and shoot contested fadeaways…

same with branham…if he must play

[ginobilized]

The Empty Vassell sails on.....

if he could help get us Fox, that would be a Christmas miracle

[The Truth #6]

With his approach to the game, he seems more like a 6th man.

[SayTown]

I don't think that horrible step back 3 was planned, he knew he traveled and got away with it. He panicked and lost his balance and just threw it up there. The travel in the first place was bad though.

[KingKev]

If Devin were available, every other team in the league would be interested.

This was consensus with Keldon a few years back.

[MannyIsGod]

He's barely hitting the SL again. Of all the players outside of Wemby, there's only 2 that should be untouchable: Castle and Vassell.

There is no one outside of Wemby who should be untouchable on this team. Like not even close. Castle is promising, but untouchable? WTF?

[scott]

There was a time when the people of this website said Dejounte Murray was untouchable*. Fans of every team love to overstate the worth of their own players, ours are no exception. Wemby is the only untouchable, Castle and Sochan are close, but can and should be able to be had in the right deal. Vassell comes in a tier below that. Everyone else is available.

*Want proof? Here you go, a thread I started 5 months before he was traded: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298734 Some real bangers in here. Reminder: even the best posters on this site are just fans, who's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (that includes mine)

[John B]

I’d be okay with Devin as the 3rd option or the 6th man. He’s one of a few Spurs players who can create for himself.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think Keldon or Devin were every going to be the centerpiece of a trade. Teams don't trade for mid tier players. Those players are the ones that are included in trades for better players. If Devin can get us Fox that is great but only if the price is right. Same exact stance I had for a possible Young trade. But the Spurs really need to add depth and I worry that they'll lose the chance to do that with a big deal where they give up way too much. Right now the Spurs are looking good to add that type of depth over the coming years if they use their draft capital, but if they sell all that AND send Devin/KJ and other NBA level players then they could find themselves in a position where they have a couple of stars but no depth.

[MannyIsGod]

There was a time when the people of this website said Dejounte Murray was untouchable*. Fans of every team love to overstate the worth of their own players, ours are no exception. Wemby is the only untouchable, Castle and Sochan are close, but can and should be able to be had in the right deal. Vassell comes in a tier below that. Everyone else is available.

*Want proof? Here you go, a thread I started 5 months before he was traded: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298734 Some real bangers in here. Reminder: even the best posters on this site are just fans, who's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (that includes mine)

I set a high bar but definitely didn't list him as untradeable.

[John B]

There was a time when the people of this website said Dejounte Murray was untouchable*. Fans of every team love to overstate the worth of their own players, ours are no exception. Wemby is the only untouchable, Castle and Sochan are close, but can and should be able to be had in the right deal. Vassell comes in a tier below that. Everyone else is available.

*Want proof? Here you go, a thread I started 5 months before he was traded: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298734 Some real bangers in here. Reminder: even the best posters on this site are just fans, who's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (that includes mine)

What differentiates Dejounte was he’s a fighter. The guy worked himself from a turnover-prone who cannot dribble through traffic, to a borderline star. What I didn’t like about him is he’s self-centered who needs a pat in the back. Unlike White who will sacrifice for the team, sacrificing his body for a charge, passing shots for a better shot. DJ imo padded stats, gambled for steals, all for his individual glory

[scott]

I set a high bar but definitely didn't list him as untradeable.

Manny, my only ask of you is to never never ever guarantee something in regard to a player ever again. I can't afford anymore "Landon is a lock for the roster" or "Keldon will definitely be an all-star" jinxes.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, my only ask of you is to never never ever guarantee something in regard to a player ever again. I can't afford anymore "Landon is a lock for the roster" or "Keldon will definitely be an all-star" jinxes.

Tough but fair.

[KingKev]

DV plus Chi 25 FRP, SA 25 FRP for Dejounte let’s fking gooooo

#BringBabyBoyHome

[Obstructed_View]

Castle has passed the eye test in the time he's been here far more than Vassell ever has.

[poopbox]

Him bumbling his way to a bad step back 3 with Champ wide open in the corner was pretty illustrative of who Devin is. He has severe tunnel vision and main character syndrome.
Good one :lmao

[vy65]

This dude is fucking embarassing

[J_Paco]

Castle has passed the eye test in the time he's been here far more than Vassell ever has.

I like Castle as a future piece, but all his advanced metrics and field goal percentages say that he's a guy that needs a lot of work.

Vassell is far, far ahead as an offensive player but that's a given when comparing a 5th year veteran to a rookie.

The better questions are can they play together and will/can Castle's offense catch up to his defensive potential.

[J_Paco]

He's getting outplayed by Mikal Bridges thus far today, but he's an above average starter & a good self-creator on offense.

His team defense - which was a plus in college, but hasn't translated - and creating for others still needs work, though.

[SayNoToDrugsTBH]

dump his ass

[timtonymanu]

Trade this loser. Wemby looked pissed losing that one cause this overpaid scrub doesn’t know how to play basketball.

[baseline bum]

Still not convinced he's better than Julian much less Steph at the starting SG position.

[baseline bum]

His team defense - which was a plus in college, but hasn't translated - and creating for others still needs work, though.

It's dogshit. He's barely better than Keldon defensively.

[TekXX]

:pop: " This guy will be our number 2 for the next decade, he's amazing, i love his no defense style" "Wemby needs to get over himself if he can't handle it"

[Kurik]

Trade him while you can if it’s not too late. At this rate every year we see hope, then there’s an injury comes back off the bench and then eventually starts only to disappoint and regress defensively.

[onechance87]

Still not convinced he's better than Julian much less Steph at the starting SG position.

Yup vassell didnt deserve to get his starting spot back.Fucked up castles development and barnes has turned to shit ever since
vassell started.

[RC_Drunkford]

Gotta admit he‘s ass right now

[timtonymanu]

People that didn’t want to trade him for Lauri but I would do that trade in a heartbeat now.

[Kurik]

Still not convinced he's better than Julian much less Steph at the starting SG position.

Agreed

[baseline bum]

Gotta admit he‘s ass right now

He been ass man. Can't win with this no defense playing motherfucker in the starting and closing lineups.

[vy65]

This dude is fucking embarassing

[Spurs Homer]

Horrible garbage piece of shit no defense playing loser

fuck vassell

[RC_Drunkford]

He been ass man. Can't win with this no defense playing motherfucker in the starting and closing lineups.

last season he was good offensively and our defensive schemes sucked. Right now he‘s even worse than last year.

[baseline bum]

This dude is fucking embarassing

I'm convinced Vassell is the anti-matter version of Danny Green.

* no defense
* no clutch
* main character syndrome

[J_Paco]

It's dogshit. He's barely better than Keldon defensively.

Totally disagree. He's coming back from multiple injuries and still finding his rhythm.

Keldon is annually one of the worst defensive players in the NBA.

[Kurik]

Totally disagree. He's coming back from multiple injuries and still finding his rhythm.

Keldon is annually one of the worst defensive players in the NBA.

Problem is we are waiting every year for Devin to find his rhythm.

[BatManu20]

As bad as he's been offensively, I'm more annoyed at how terrible he is defensively. NBA players see him guarding them and their eyes light up like a Christmas tree. He's a sieve on that end of the floor. And he doesn't rebound or do anything else to affect winning. If he's not hitting his shots, he's a net negative player, and it's compounded by the fact that he's not surrounded by better players that can help hide him. He's being asked to be our 2nd best player when he doesn't have the ability to be. All this before you mention that he's made of glass.

I know he's Wemby's best friend on the team, but if there's any way we can move him in a deal for Fox or Lauri, you pull the trigger and don't look back.

[J_Paco]

Problem is we are waiting every year for Devin to find his rhythm.

Anothe lie.

He played really well last season and has improved (in some aspect) every year of his career. Unfortunately, him being a plus defender in college hasn't translated to the pro game (it likely never will).

We just need him to be at least average in that respect, so I'll give him more time to be at least that.

Offensively, he's the second best scorer, self-creator, while getting better and better at creating for other players.

We need him to get back to playing at last year's level while improving some on defense.

Wembanyama has made another quantum leap, Sochan has improved, so has Champagnie while everyone else is treading water (including Castle, IMO).

[Spurs Homer]

If i had the energy id post all those “vassell is untouchable” posts…and “not trading vassell for markannen”…

lol

[baseline bum]

As bad as he's been offensively, I'm more annoyed at how terrible he is defensively. NBA players see him guarding them and their eyes light up like a Christmas tree. He's a sieve on that end of the floor. And he doesn't rebound or do anything else to affect winning. If he's not hitting his shots. he's a net negative player. All this before you mention that he's made of glass.

I know he's Wemby's best friend on the team, but if there's any way we can move him in a deal for Fox or Lauri, you pull the trigger and don't look back.

Even if he is hitting his shots he's often a net negative, like a 2024 version of Derek Anderson. It's amazing how the team was ninth in the league in defensive rating with Castle taking all his minutes then Main Character comes back and it starts looking like last year again on the defensive end.

[baseline bum]

If i had the energy id post all those “vassell is untouchable” posts…and “not trading vassell for markannen”…

lol

Was also back when we were thinking those Atlanta picks would be gold.

[slick'81]

Was also back when we were thinking those Atlanta picks would be gold.

i never liked that deal like others creaming on here

[LeBowen]

Was also back when we were thinking those Atlanta picks would be gold.

I was one of those who thought Devin will take the next step, but I was also one of the rare posters who kept trying to explain that Hawks picks won't be that great simply because they have no incentive to tank and the East is full of garbage teams.

[baseline bum]

I was one of those who thought Devin will take the next step, but I was also one of the rare posters who kept trying to explain that Hawks picks won't be that great simply because they have no incentive to tank and the East is full of garbage teams.

They'd still be good picks if Dyson Daniels didn't turn out to be Scottie Pippen 2.0 defensively. I don't think any of us had that on our bingo card.

[LeBowen]

They'd still be good picks if Dyson Daniels didn't turn out to be Scottie Pippen 2.0 defensively. I don't think any of us had that on our bingo card.

People thought we'd be getting top5 picks from the Hawks, but there was no way they miss the play-in.

[scott]

Threw a bonus comparison up there, just for fun.

https://i.ibb.co/0MtVz6N/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-4.png

Just a reminder.

There was a point where he made a conscious to focus on his offensive game at the direct expense of his defensive game. He's in the dogshit tier of defender, and he's been there for a few seasons - it's not just a matter of rust or overcoming injuries... he just fucking sucks on defense.

His jumper looks sweet at times, but he's also wildly inconsistent on offense. You can't have your #2 or #3 be guys who oscillate between 24 pt games and 11 pt games, and that's who Devin is. Completely unreliable.

The front office should be fielding calls on him as we speak. TBH, moving him is even more important that moving Keldon or Collins at this juncture.

[BackHome]

People thought we'd be getting top5 picks from the Hawks, but there was no way they miss the play-in.

Yeah I have stopped dreaming of having a chance at Harper

[pad300]

People thought we'd be getting top5 picks from the Hawks, but there was no way they miss the play-in.

BB is right though, if Dyson Daniels wasn't playing like a DPOY candidate (3.2 steals/game), they'd be loosing a lot more games. They managed to trade DJ for what they thought they were getting in the first place while getting some picks back as well... That was a hell of trade for them.

[Raven]

He's a good player, I have no issue with him.

[Spurs Homer]

At the very least…mitch johnson should have continued starting castle and letting vassell be a 6th man …since all vassell cares about is shooting….

castle could have continued his improvement and vassell could have slowly worked himself back into game shape….

but he is horrible right now as a starter playing starter minutes…

[Gagnrath]

He's barely hitting the SL again. Of all the players outside of Wemby, there's only 2 that should be untouchable: Castle and Vassell.
I don't think he's untouchable, I do think he's in the not being shopped it had better be a hell of an offer deal. (this isn't plausible just tossing out a no brainer) For example if the Cavs were all "Oh ,no Donovan Mitchell decided he doesn't like snow, We'll give you him for Vessel, Your 2025 first and two seconds, the spurs should say yes. Basically if the offer is an all star guard under 30 the spurs say yes unless the add in is stupid. The Vassell isn't untouchable but he's not to be shopped.

[scott]

I don't think he's untouchable, I do think he's in the not being shopped it had better be a hell of an offer deal. (this isn't plausible just tossing out a no brainer) For example if the Cavs were all "Oh ,no Donovan Mitchell decided he doesn't like snow, We'll give you him for Vessel, Your 2025 first and two seconds, the spurs should say yes. Basically if the offer is an all star guard under 30 the spurs say yes unless the add in is stupid. The Vassell isn't untouchable but he's not to be shopped.

He's quite literally been a below-median NBA player in LEBRON every year of his career other than his sophomore season. It'd be one thing if it was still on his rookie deal, or the trajectory is upward, but neither are the case. This doesn't scream "only for a Godfather deal" to me... but we've also held on to Keldon past his due date and he wasn't the first, so that's kind of our thing.

[Gagnrath]

This was consensus with Keldon a few years back.
There was a year (21-22) when Keldon had a consistent (39.8) shot from 3 on just over 5 attempts per game. It was also his 3rd year in the league. He started over 70 games, it looked like he was going to play slightly below average D but was improving (tried but didn't have instincts for it and was a bit undersized), a consistent shooter, and strong rebounder for his position who was getting better. Thing with that was DeRozan was commanding a lot of defensive gravity away from Keldon and Keldon also regressed a bit as a shooter. This year his 3 ball has been horrible. That makes a big difference, he was also asked to carry the offense in 22-23 which made defenses key on him alot harder. If you're another coach and the defensive assignments are to cover D White, DeRozan and Johnson, Keldon is getting the weakest defender. That's not an excuse for his shooting falling off a cliff, (spurs shooting coaching has fallen apart in recent years) but it does contribute.

A third year player putting up nearly 40% on over 5 attempts per game from 3 is a lot different than a guy early in his 6th year not hitting 30% from 3 on just over 3. A big part of it is that the spurs don't really have anyone who commands the defense to collapse. Which means he's not getting a open catch and shoot or catch once bounce and shoot.

[baseline bum]

If the Spurs could trade Alvin Robertson after a DPOY and back to back years as an allstar starter to improve the team around young DRob they can certainly trade mid-ass Vassell to put a winner around Victor.

[Gagnrath]

Castle has made a big leap, he went from being a + player on a good team in College to being a + player on an ok but growing team in the NBA. Has he made a ton of progress during this season? Sorta, the rest of the NBA is getting their scouting report on him, he's dealing with that and with people taking him serious in their second and third games against him, instead of him just being a rook who probably isn't much. Just standing and looking like a serious NBA player is a big step for a rookie.

[spurraider21]

Massive disappointment tbh

all his moves look like pre-determined 4 seconds long NBA2k animations as opposed to organic reactions to what the defender is doing

a good shooter on a team that needs shooting but if he’s going to be a poor defender and an inconsistent offensive producer i don’t see the vision.

[Gagnrath]

If the Spurs could trade Alvin Robertson after a DPOY and back to back years as an allstar starter to improve the team around young DRob they can certainly trade mid-ass Vassell to put a winner around Victor.
Definitely but there's a difference between shopping someone and letting people know that you're happy with the guy and not going to move just to make a move.

[spursistan]

Ready to cut bait if the opportunity to upgrade arises, and that's maybe sooner than expected. Devin got paid like a second/third banana but he's delivering the output of 6th man (one-dimensional, inconsistent with poor availability). Not gonna cut it.

Like baseline bum (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=131) said above, the biggest concern is that they wait too long and he torpedoes his trade value like KJ.

[SupremeGuy]

Devin is good but for his contract? Not so much.

Castle and Wemby have something going and then they bench Castle cause I get it you gotta play Devin after you paid him but at what cost?

[Pauleta14]

PATFO probably realized that if they want to use Vassell in a trade they might try to raise his value rather than lowering it keeping him on the bench.

[onechance87]

You got bradley beal and zach lavine looking much better then vassell.Thats how pathetic vassell has been.People making excuses
for vassell that hes coming from injury.But lavine also had a foot injury surgery ending his season last year.Yet hes looked much
better then vassell.And vassell is alot younger.

[tbdog]

You got bradley beal and zach lavine looking much better then vassell.Thats how pathetic vassell has been.People making excuses
for vassell that hes coming from injury.But lavine also had a foot injury surgery ending his season last year.Yet hes looked much
better then vassell.And vassell is alot younger.

Lavine got a training camp and off season. Lavine looks a lot better now than Lavine last season. Vassell is finding his rhythm and legs. Unless there is a set back, he'll hsve a good last third of the season.

[LeBowen]

Lavine got a training camp and off season. Lavine looks a lot better now than Lavine last season. Vassell is finding his rhythm and legs.

Rythm and legs have nothing to do with his atrocious defense and decision making.
I don't even care about his offensive output, but his defense has been just sad to watch. Basic reads have nothing to do with conditioning.
He's like one of those kids in the park who always chases the ball.


Unless there is a set back, he'll hsve a good last third of the season.

This is the other concerning thing.
There's always a setback.

[dbestpro]

Ready to move on from Vassell and Johnson. Wemby needs some real help. This is a top-three lottery team without him.

[exstatic]

They'd still be good picks if Dyson Daniels didn't turn out to be Scottie Pippen 2.0 defensively. I don't think any of us had that on our bingo card.

I think the defensive rule changes quietly rolled out post ASG last year helped. The rest of his number increases can be accounted for by increased minutes and volume, but those steals stick out like a sore thumb.

[The Truth #6]

I think one of the major challenges with Devin on this team is, that no one on the team can really reliably and successfully dribble into the paint, and Devin, though he tries it a lot, isn't very good at it either, possibly really bad, and so this team offense needs to thrive as a team with lots of ball movement and so that's where someone like Julian, even though he doesn't penetrate well, he also doesn't hold on to the ball long at all and so the ball's always moving. It seems like at least to my eye there's better shots available when he's on the court.

[exstatic]

I think one of the major challenges with Devin on this team is, that no one on the team can really reliably and successfully dribble into the paint, and Devin, though he tries it a lot, isn't very good at it either, possibly really bad, and so this team offense needs to thrive as a team with lots of ball movement and so that's where someone like Julian, even though he doesn't penetrate well, he also doesn't hold on to the ball long at all and so the ball's always moving. It seems like at least to my eye there's better shots available when he's on the court.
Stephon Castle has entered the chat….

[BackHome]

The problem with castle is he still tries to power through guys which doesn’t always work in the NBA - Once he develops a little floater and mid range he will be so much better but still very happy with the pick and his progress

[gambit1990]

so much of ST thought devin would help the team step up :lol

me before the season started:

castle can ball. keep cp3, barnes, castle, wemby. make a big trade.

[cd98]

Spurs talk always has to find a player they hate every year. I guess it’s Vassell this year.

[CGD]

Spurs talk always has to find a player they hate every year. I guess it’s Vassell this year.

So true.

[scott]

I think one of the major challenges with Devin on this team is, that no one on the team can really reliably and successfully dribble into the paint, and Devin, though he tries it a lot, isn't very good at it either, possibly really bad, and so this team offense needs to thrive as a team with lots of ball movement and so that's where someone like Julian, even though he doesn't penetrate well, he also doesn't hold on to the ball long at all and so the ball's always moving. It seems like at least to my eye there's better shots available when he's on the court.

Yeah, I was thinking about this... without reliable penetrators you really need to rely on movement, passing and "the beautiful game". Unfortunately, Devin and Keldon are ball-stoppers who get tunnel vision as soon as the ball gets in their hands.

[vy65]

This dude is fucking embarassing

[BatManu20]

4/16 tonight for a team-worst -2 +/- and continued terrible defense. This dude stinks right now tbh.

[onechance87]

Man wtf happend to this dude.

[rankingtear]

Man wtf happend to this dude.

The offense shifted toward the front court and he is forced to be the second POA defender instead of help.

[spursistan]

He just sucks right now and i'm afraid he has already depressed his trade value. We can only root for him for even just market reasons :lol

[Das Texan]

its so fucking aggravating seeing both Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson on the court at the same time most fucking nights, especially late in games.

that needs to fucking stop and soon.

At some point its gotta be time to prioritize winning over other things.

[Obstructed_View]

Spurs talk always has to find a player they hate every year. I guess it’s Vassell this year.
At least they found someone who sucks.

[td4mvp2k]

to bad you cant pull this turd from the lineup

[The Truth #6]

He wasn't efficient but he seemed to play in the flow of the offense and didn't play to his weaknesses as bad as before. Honestly, I thought it was progress for him.

[gilmor]

Today he played better. So it's Keldon. But it's a weak team.

[Fireball]

dump his ass tbh

[J_Paco]

The offense shifted toward the front court and he is forced to be the second POA defender instead of help.

He is scuffling since being reinserted into the starting lineup, but I also wonder how much of it is a misalignment in role on both sides (like you mentioned)?

He's having to get used to having the ball in his hands a lot less, while the offense runs through CP3 & Wemby (rightfully so). Plus, without Castle in the starting lineup & CP3 needing to be hidden most nights that means he's drawing a tougher assignment than year's past (small sample size).

Either the team will need to upgrade from him or pair him with another guard/forward that can defend (hiding him more often).

I'm not against moving him, if he can't turn things around while the team is on the upswing.

Also, I think it's becoming clear he's more of a Rip Hamilton - type (offense heavy) instead of a Kris Middleton (Jack of all trades) higher end 'role player.' (No shade meant to Rip cause he was a champion in college and the pros.)

[LeBowen]

He's having to get used to having the ball in his hands a lot less, while the offense runs through CP3 & Wemby (rightfully so).

Last season he was criticized because he obviously wasn't comfortable as a creator, which was fair.
Now he gets a competent playmaker and he's still uncomfortable? At some point you have to figure out if a player is worth adjusting to.


Either the team will need to upgrade from him or pair him with another guard/forward that can defend (hiding him more often).

One-dimensional players aren't worth hiding these days unless they're 25ppg+ scorers.

[rankingtear]

Last season he was criticized because he obviously wasn't comfortable as a creator, which was fair.
Now he gets a competent playmaker and he's still uncomfortable? At some point you have to figure out if a player is worth adjusting to.



One-dimensional players aren't worth hiding these days unless they're 25ppg+ scorers.

CP3 generates less rim pressure than Tre. There is also less handoff and backdoor cuts without pivot Wemby and Zollins. This is just natural progression as Wemby develops into more of a modern 4 rather than a pivot big. He is 5 games in the SL give it time. Naturally he would be the one looking like shit because he is adjusting on both sides similar to Sochan last year.

[LeBowen]

CP3 generates less rim pressure than Tre.

Doesn't matter if we're talking Devin. He's being put in good positions and can't take advantage of it.


This is just natural progression as Wemby develops into more of a modern 4 rather than a pivot big.

Your modern 4 is actually modern 5.
Even Jokic started taking way more 3pts, post-ups are completely dead if it's not an easy to exploit mismatch.
It's just too inefficent when it comes to setting it up, the time and energy it takes and efficency. Sad, but true. Obviously a lot of it is on the type of bigs we have today.


He is 5 games in the SL give it time. Naturally he would be the one looking like shit because he is adjusting on both sides similar to Sochan last year.

He'll obviously have the time until the end of the season, he's not going anywhere. But we're 5 years in, it's getting annoying.

[baseline bum]

He's having to get used to having the ball in his hands a lot less, while the offense runs through CP3 & Wemby (rightfully so). Plus, without Castle in the starting lineup & CP3 needing to be hidden most nights that means he's drawing a tougher assignment than year's past (small sample size).


Sorry man CP3 is having a pretty good season defensively. Vassell isn't having to cover for anything, it's the team having to cover for him.

[KingKev]

I wish timvp was still alive so he could pin this tread.

[scott]

I wish timvp was still alive so he could pin this tread.

timvp, Jimmy Carter and Rickey Henderson - up in heaven winning 3v3 tourneys. RIP dudes.

[spursistan]

The specter of James Anderson 2.0 on a 30 million salary is haunting me..

[SupremeGuy]

The specter of James Anderson 2.0 on a 30 million salary is haunting me..Bro James Anderson was legit till he got hurt.

[SupremeGuy]

I wish timvp was still alive so he could pin this tread.WTF? That dude passed away? Damn I really haven't been stopping by here regularly in the last few years. The fuck. Or is it a joke? lol

[exstatic]

The specter of James Anderson 2.0 on a 30 million salary is haunting me..

The specter of trading another guard in nearly the exact point of injury history and development arc to Derrick White should haunt you, as well.

[exstatic]

WTF? That dude passed away? Damn I really haven't been stopping by here regularly in the last few years. The fuck. Or is it a joke? lol

It’s turning into a meme, because while he still does the grades, he doesn’t do the thread, leaving that to forum posters to start.

[Kevin]

The specter of trading another guard in nearly the exact point of injury history and development arc to Derrick White should haunt you, as well.

Spurs Derrick White was a multi-dimensional player unlike Dev. White had defense, point guard skills, a passable three ball with high basketball IQ. Dev's a good shooter and not much else.

[scott]

The specter of trading another guard in nearly the exact point of injury history and development arc to Derrick White should haunt you, as well.

Not really seeing the similarities between Devin and Derrick's developmental arcs, but interested in hearing the case.

https://i.ibb.co/1L2QzR2/dev-v-white.png

[exstatic]

Spurs Derrick White was a multi-dimensional player unlike Dev. White had defense, point guard skills, a passable three ball with high basketball IQ. Dev's a good shooter and not much else.

Spurs Derrick White didn’t go through two tanking years. Devin Vassell was the only fucking player who showed up for the 2022 play in game. DJ, coming off his All Dtar appearance, shit the bed.

He’s injured too much. He can’t shoot. He needs to go. All of those things were said about Derrick White as a Spur, and a lot of them should sound familiar. Devin Vassell is currently about a year older than Derrick was on the day DW was drafted.

[itzsoweezee]

Spurs Derrick White didn’t go through two tanking years. Devin Vassell was the only fucking player who showed up for the 2022 play in game. DJ, coming off his All Dtar appearance, shit the bed.

He’s injured too much. He can’t shoot. He needs to go. All of those things were said about Derrick White as a Spur, and a lot of them should sound familiar. Devin Vassell is currently about a year older than Derrick was on the day DW was drafted.

White was universally loved. I don’t know what you’re talking about. People were clamoring for him to start. Trading him made sense given where the spurs were, but it had nothing to do with White’s performance as a player. Devin is the polar opposite of White. All potential, and little production to show for it (so far)

[exstatic]

White was universally loved. I don’t know what you’re talking about. People were clamoring for him to start. Trading him made sense given where the spurs were, but it had nothing to do with White’s performance as a player. Devin is the polar opposite of White. All potential, and little production to show for it (so far)

No one is universally loved on this site, not even Wemby, who is being called lazy 100 or so games into his career.

[Kevin]

Spurs Derrick White didn’t go through two tanking years. Devin Vassell was the only fucking player who showed up for the 2022 play in game. DJ, coming off his All Dtar appearance, shit the bed.

He’s injured too much. He can’t shoot. He needs to go. All of those things were said about Derrick White as a Spur, and a lot of them should sound familiar. Devin Vassell is currently about a year older than Derrick was on the day DW was drafted.

Dev was also given underserved minutes and touches over those tank years whereas Derrick had to earn his minutes on decent treadmill teams.

[Splits]

Not really seeing the similarities between Devin and Derrick's developmental arcs, but interesting in hearing the case.

https://i.ibb.co/1L2QzR2/dev-v-white.png

These are better comps to former Spurs

https://i.ibb.co/4pCWY46/image.png

Devyn Forsell

[rjv]

White was universally loved. I don’t know what you’re talking about. People were clamoring for him to start. Trading him made sense given where the spurs were, but it had nothing to do with White’s performance as a player. Devin is the polar opposite of White. All potential, and little production to show for it (so far)

hell no. d white was getting slaughtered in here for his shooting woes, which were pretty bad in his last season here.

[exstatic]

hell no. d white was getting slaughtered in here for his shooting woes, which were pretty bad in his last season here.

Stop me if you’ve heard this before: he had just come off foot surgery…

[rjv]

No one is universally loved on this site, not even Wemby, who is being called lazy 100 or so games into his career.

pop, manu, TP, danny green, just to name a few, were regularly roasted on this site. duncan was one of the few players who, at least from my memory, didn't get too much heat.

[rjv]

Stop me if you’ve heard this before: he had just come off foot surgery…

stop.

[exstatic]

stop.

:rollin

[Tyronn Lue]

Spurs Derrick White didn’t go through two tanking years. Devin Vassell was the only fucking player who showed up for the 2022 play in game. DJ, coming off his All Dtar appearance, shit the bed.

He’s injured too much. He can’t shoot. He needs to go. All of those things were said about Derrick White as a Spur, and a lot of them should sound familiar. Devin Vassell is currently about a year older than Derrick was on the day DW was drafted.
They were true. Put Vassell as the accepted 5th best player on the floor and the Spurs are looking pretty good.

[scott]

https://i.ibb.co/StcDyty/dev-onoff.png

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:s teep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 83c8681c-5019-4e1d-9a05-722d2cd6d614_500x300.png

[Kevin]

https://i.ibb.co/StcDyty/dev-onoff.png

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:s teep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 83c8681c-5019-4e1d-9a05-722d2cd6d614_500x300.png

God I love that show.

[spurraider21]

God I love that show.
I don't think about it at all

[Splits]

https://i.ibb.co/StcDyty/dev-onoff.png

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:s teep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 83c8681c-5019-4e1d-9a05-722d2cd6d614_500x300.png

-13 fuck. I'm telling you his floor is Forbes and ceiling Udrih

[scott]

Been waiting for someone to chime in with "SaMpLe SiZe!!!"

[dn0774]

https://i.ibb.co/StcDyty/dev-onoff.png

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:s teep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 83c8681c-5019-4e1d-9a05-722d2cd6d614_500x300.png

wow, tough to argue with that, 637 mins aint exactly nothin either

[poopbox]

Stop me if you’ve heard this before: he had just come off foot surgery…

I legit :lol

Good one :lol

[scott]

Posted in another thread, but thought it would be worth documenting here for posterity as well:

Through 37 games:



The Spurs are 14 net points better with Wemby on the court than with him off (-5.0 ON / -9.3 OFF)
The Spurs are 14 net points worse with Vassell on the court than with him off (+3.9 OFF / -9.4 ON)



You might be asking: "well, how about how these two guys interact with each other? Certainly there is some overlap there, right?" Great question, I'm glad you asked.




When Wemby is on the court without Vassell, the Spurs have a +10.2 NETRTG
When Wemby is on the court with Vassell, the Spurs have a -4.5 NETRTG, which is only slightly better than...
When Wemby and Vassell are both off the court, the Spurs have a -5.3 NETRTG, which is way better than...
When Vassell is on the court without Wemby, the Spurs have a -16.3 NETRTG

[KobesAchilles]

Posted in another thread, but thought it would be worth documenting here for posterity as well:

Through 37 games:



The Spurs are 14 net points better with Wemby on the court than with him off (-5.0 ON / -9.3 OFF)
The Spurs are 14 net points worse with Vassell on the court than with him off (+3.9 OFF / -9.4 ON)



You might be asking: "well, how about how these two guys interact with each other? Certainly there is some overlap there, right?" Great question, I'm glad you asked.




When Wemby is on the court without Vassell, the Spurs have a +10.2 NETRTG
When Wemby is on the court with Vassell, the Spurs have a -4.5 NETRTG, which is only slightly better than...
When Wemby and Vassell are both off the court, the Spurs have a -5.3 NETRTG, which is way better than...
When Vassell is on the court without Wemby, the Spurs have a -16.3 NETRTG


Just killing all of them with facts. Anything else is just feelings or baseless projections.
I know he’s never played good defense before, but he was hurt earlier. Just give him more time :cry
5 years isn’t enough time to really say he’s bad. :cry
He’s only struggling bc he has to adjust his game due to Wemby :cry

And whatever useless drivel of excuses are being spouted. Start Champ. Start Castle. Bench Sochan and bench Vassell and we will make the playoffs this year

[mo7888]

Posted in another thread, but thought it would be worth documenting here for posterity as well:

Through 37 games:



The Spurs are 14 net points better with Wemby on the court than with him off (-5.0 ON / -9.3 OFF)
The Spurs are 14 net points worse with Vassell on the court than with him off (+3.9 OFF / -9.4 ON)



You might be asking: "well, how about how these two guys interact with each other? Certainly there is some overlap there, right?" Great question, I'm glad you asked.




When Wemby is on the court without Vassell, the Spurs have a +10.2 NETRTG
When Wemby is on the court with Vassell, the Spurs have a -4.5 NETRTG, which is only slightly better than...
When Wemby and Vassell are both off the court, the Spurs have a -5.3 NETRTG, which is way better than...
When Vassell is on the court without Wemby, the Spurs have a -16.3 NETRTG


That's brutal. I still think Devin is fine as the 3rd or (preferably) 4th best player on the team.That said, if another team values him then I'd be fine trading him as part of a deal to get a real #2.

[ohmwrecker]

Devin Vassell is like a more athletic Roger Mason Jr.

[Russo21]

Posted in another thread, but thought it would be worth documenting here for posterity as well:

Through 37 games:



The Spurs are 14 net points better with Wemby on the court than with him off (-5.0 ON / -9.3 OFF)
The Spurs are 14 net points worse with Vassell on the court than with him off (+3.9 OFF / -9.4 ON)



You might be asking: "well, how about how these two guys interact with each other? Certainly there is some overlap there, right?" Great question, I'm glad you asked.




When Wemby is on the court without Vassell, the Spurs have a +10.2 NETRTG
When Wemby is on the court with Vassell, the Spurs have a -4.5 NETRTG, which is only slightly better than...
When Wemby and Vassell are both off the court, the Spurs have a -5.3 NETRTG, which is way better than...
When Vassell is on the court without Wemby, the Spurs have a -16.3 NETRTG


Damn man those statistics are brutal for DV. I was getting blasted here not long ago for calling out Mr Quadruple Zero. Those stat's more than make up for the eye test, damn.

Like I've said over and over again, he's got to go asap before other GM's fully catch on and realise how bad he is and his value tanks more. He's not good and even worse, he doesn't make anyone around him better. It's no surprise the darkest era in Spurs history coincides with him being on the team as a lead player

[John B]

Not if he’s going to ball like this every time. That dunk on AD was nasty

[100%duncan]

Not if he’s going to ball like this every time. That dunk on AD was nasty

This game is a 2nd option Devin, which is what we are all hoping him to consistently be. The problem is next game he's probably going to score 11 points.

[John B]

This game is a 2nd option Devin, which is what we are all hoping him to consistently be. The problem is next game he's probably going to score 11 points.

Devin was just just playing fearless tonight. It didn’t bother him getting blocked by AD but he just kept going in like he’s possessed. It helped also that 6 players scored double digits keeping the defenders honest

[Slippy]

Not hard to figure why this stat is so negatively slanted against Dev if you watch the games.

The spurs rotate Dev & Vic leading the bench unit on their own. Dev is becomes the number 1 while Vic sits. Then Vic come back to lead the bench unit as the 1st option starting the next q.

This gets repeated in 2nd half

This stat clearly shows Vic is the better option as number 1 & more of a presense to his team.Wow what a shock. Lol

Why plus minus can be just as misleading not just for bench players but for starters. The less you play with Vic the harder it is for every spurs.

Again on why watching games is best way to gauge.

[RC_Drunkford]

Not hard to figure why this stat is so negatively slanted against Dev if you watch the games.

The spurs rotate Dev & Vic leading the bench unit on their own. Dev is becomes the number 1 while Vic sits. Then Vic come back to lead the bench unit as the 1st option starting the next q.

This gets repeated in 2nd half

This stat clearly shows Vic is the better option as number 1 & more of a presense to his team.Wow what a shock. Lol

Why plus minus can be just as misleading not just for bench players but for starters. The less you play with Vic the harder it is for every spurs.

Again on why watching games is best way to gauge.

admitting that wouldn't fit their agenda :lol

[onechance87]

Not hard to figure why this stat is so negatively slanted against Dev if you watch the games.

The spurs rotate Dev & Vic leading the bench unit on their own. Dev is becomes the number 1 while Vic sits. Then Vic come back to lead the bench unit as the 1st option starting the next q.

This gets repeated in 2nd half

This stat clearly shows Vic is the better option as number 1 & more of a presense to his team.Wow what a shock. Lol

Why plus minus can be just as misleading not just for bench players but for starters. The less you play with Vic the harder it is for every spurs.

Again on why watching games is best way to gauge.

Not acceptable for our highest paid player.Other teams have one or two or even three stars who steps up
when the others is not having a good games.Vassell has yet to prove that.When wemby is having a bad game or
average game.Vassell really hasint shown the ability to take over games and help wemby.We are not paying him to
be a role player.

[rankingtear]

He is clearly bought in his reb and stocks are up. Once he starts hitting his shots again we are a much improved team. At 0 cost.

[tbdog]

I'm fine with Devin Vassell. He isn't untouchable but spurs are not shopping him. So they shouldn't be. Devin stock is low right now as his shooting has dipped this year. Devin shooting has improved every year. This is a blimp. Look at Garland. The guy suffered a fractured jaw, nothing to do with his legs, wrists, fingers, toes, and he looked way off last season. Now he is back playing as an Allstar. Cavs didn't sell low on him, even through there were rumors that Mitchell wanted him out.

This is the thing, something is off with Devin, and it might last the season. But his trajectory has always gone up. But for this season, missing out on training camp, his performance has died down. Now you want to sell him?

[RC_Drunkford]

He‘s coming off foot surgery. Gon take him a little, but his shooting should go up to his regular numbers

[KingKev]

These advanced analytics Spurstalkers need to leave my Glorious Pookie Bear Devin Vassell alone!!!

That poster on AD was nice though! Hopefully he can keep the showcase going.

[LeBowen]

The most important thing for me is effort.
His defensive and rebounding effort over the past few games has been better than we've ever seen.
As long as he's 100% invested in every possession, I'm not worried about his scoring.

[KobesAchilles]

If this is the game people are hoping Vassell to be going forward I want no part of it. He was just jacking up shot after shot after shot. His defense looked spry tonight, but he does that about once every 6 games. Tonight was just his effort night. Now I need that every night.

And people over here still trying to defend their man :lol The dude is a role player who refuses to play like a role player. He wouldn’t even be a 4th option on a contender bc he refuses to play like a 4th option. Just bring him off the bench and turn him into the next Lou Williams.

[LeBowen]

If this is the game people are hoping Vassell to be going forward I want no part of it. He was just jacking up shot after shot after shot. His defense looked spry tonight, but he does that about once every 6 games. Tonight was just his effort night. Now I need that every night.

And people over here still trying to defend their man :lol The dude is a role player who refuses to play like a role player. He wouldn’t even be a 4th option on a contender bc he refuses to play like a 4th option. Just bring him off the bench and turn him into the next Lou Williams.

The issue is that we have noone else to jack up shots. I'm also down on him, but last night we won because everyone did what they were supposed to do.
Devin jacked up shots, Castle attacked the rim over and over again, Barnes hit his corner 3s and hunted for mismatches in mid-post, Wemby didn't chuck bad shots and if Champagnie was his usual self instead of random Lakers role-players having a great shooting night, it would've been a brutal beatdown.

[ambchang]

The issue is that we have noone else to jack up shots. I'm also down on him, but last night we won because everyone did what they were supposed to do.
Devin jacked up shots, Castle attacked the rim over and over again, Barnes hit his corner 3s and hunted for mismatches in mid-post, Wemby didn't chuck bad shots and if Champagnie was his usual self instead of random Lakers role-players having a great shooting night, it would've been a brutal beatdown.

And this points to the issue of coaching. The players are ok players, we didn’t draft poorly, the players are who they are. You put jordan at centre and see how he does, you put duncan at point guard and see how that turns out. Even Superstars have strengths and weaknesses, and these are Role players with a capital R. Play them out of role or even out of position and results will be bad.

The coaches are supposed to guide the players to do what they are supposed to do. You can’t let them run around and do this once every 10 games. If a player step out of line and do something stupid, pull him aside and remind him, do it again and scream at him, do it a third time and you yank him.

Now, about development …..

[InRareForm]

I'm bullish.

[DAF86]

Not hard to figure why this stat is so negatively slanted against Dev if you watch the games.

The spurs rotate Dev & Vic leading the bench unit on their own. Dev is becomes the number 1 while Vic sits. Then Vic come back to lead the bench unit as the 1st option starting the next q.

This gets repeated in 2nd half

This stat clearly shows Vic is the better option as number 1 & more of a presense to his team.Wow what a shock. Lol

Why plus minus can be just as misleading not just for bench players but for starters. The less you play with Vic the harder it is for every spurs.

Again on why watching games is best way to gauge.

If Vassell has it in him to be the player we need him to be, there shouldn't be such a drop off when he's out there without Wemby.

Remember when Timmy and Tony would sub off and Manu would come in and actually have a better +/- than the starters? That's what a true top 2/3 option looks like. Granted, Manu was actually a franchise guy coming of the bench, but still, the point remains that there shouldn't be a 28 pts dropoff.

[sfernald]

Devin is dead to me until he turns it around d

[scott]

If this is the game people are hoping Vassell to be going forward I want no part of it. He was just jacking up shot after shot after shot. His defense looked spry tonight, but he does that about once every 6 games. Tonight was just his effort night. Now I need that every night.

And people over here still trying to defend their man :lol The dude is a role player who refuses to play like a role player. He wouldn’t even be a 4th option on a contender bc he refuses to play like a 4th option. Just bring him off the bench and turn him into the next Lou Williams.

People still want to believe that it's just Devin being in a slump and not hitting his shots, when in reality it's what you've been preaching all along... the dude doesn't play winning basketball. Whether that is the coaches fault, or his fault can be argued over... but Vassell ISO Chuck Ball will never be successful because it's not winning basketball.

If Devin could learn to be the 4th option, like you say, or even a 6th man bench scorer, he'd be fine.

But instead let's all take a victory lap because Devin had his first good game in weeks.

[KingKev]

4th man option or 6th man bench scorer is his calling. He is more Jordan Clarkson than Lou Will and especially J Crawford.

He is a better, less athletic L Walker IV in my books.

[John B]

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/blob:https://www.spurstalk.com/ed8e0f1f-5ace-4b11-b0a5-4609747ddbf3

This makes my day

[quentin_compson]

I still think that the best version of Vassell is an intriguing player to pair with Wemby: good shooter and tough-shot maker, not a negative on defense, doesn't need the ball in his hands all the time but can do at least a little bit with it if he has to.
Sure, we are not getting that version of Devin right now and we might never get it on a consistent enough basis. But trading him just for the sake of getting rid of him would not be a smart thing to do, either.

[KingKev]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10150805-whos-really-untouchable-for-every-team-ahead-of-2025-nba-trade-deadline

BR has DV labelled as “untouchable”

Not the brightest bunch over there but their rhetoric mirrors this community for the most part.

[LeBowen]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10150805-whos-really-untouchable-for-every-team-ahead-of-2025-nba-trade-deadline

BR has DV labelled as “untouchable”

Not the brightest bunch over there but their rhetoric mirrors this community for the most part.

Ringer's top100 list had Devin as a 3-D upside player. :lol

[scott]

You would think that NBA Front Offices watch more basketball that the dopes who write these articles... but it's debatable sometimes.

If this is the opinion of Devin, then maybe Brian Wright can work his seller's magic and get us a couple of FRPs we can use to trade for an actual good player.

[mo7888]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10150805-whos-really-untouchable-for-every-team-ahead-of-2025-nba-trade-deadline

BR has DV labelled as “untouchable”

Not the brightest bunch over there but their rhetoric mirrors this community for the most part.

Interesting names on the "touchable" list:

Herb Jones
Tyler Herro
Fox
Keon Ellis
Garrison Matthews

[rascal]

If Vassell has it in him to be the player we need him to be, there shouldn't be such a drop off when he's out there without Wemby.

Remember when Timmy and Tony would sub off and Manu would come in and actually have a better +/- than the starters? That's what a true top 2/3 option looks like. Granted, Manu was actually a franchise guy coming of the bench, but still, the point remains that there shouldn't be a 28 pts dropoff.

Manu wasn't a franchise player. You weren't winning a NBA championship with Manu as your number 1, which are franchise players.

[scott]

Good game from Devin tonight against Memphis.

Oh yeah, Spurs lose, Devin pumps in a team worst -17 :lol

[NASpurs]

Good game from Devin tonight against Memphis.

Oh yeah, Spurs lose, Devin pumps in a team worst -17 :lol

Not a winning basketball player but at least he puts up cute stats.

[LeBowen]

Not a winning basketball player but at least he puts up cute stats.

He gave up all those points right back because Bane got to the rim at will, Devin couldn't do shit.
Tbh, I wouldn't blame him for it that much because no guard can stop Bane.

He's showing signs of life, but still nowhere near worth the money he's getting.

[Obstructed_View]

Not a winning basketball player but at least he puts up cute stats.
He's a Kobe worshipper. It shows.

[Jordan Jackson]

Interesting names on the "touchable" list:

Herb Jones
Tyler Herro
Fox
Keon Ellis
Garrison Matthews

He’s injured but would be very happy with Herb Jones. Spurs need actual defensive minded wings/guards.

Vassells defense is scary bad and it seems to be flying under the radar amongst the general public.

[scott]

He’s injured but would be very happy with Herb Jones. Spurs need actual defensive minded wings/guards.

Vassells defense is scary bad and it seems to be flying under the radar amongst the general public.

Yeah, I kind of view the Spurs subreddit as the general consensus of casual Spurs fans, and they seem to think Devin is a good defender and then get super defensive when you point out that he is in fact a quite horrible defender.

[Knoxxx]

This loss was on Wemby and Paul those are the guys who underperformed the most. Paul v Morant is a no go though, awful matchup for us. Paul is just a stop gap obviously.

[Knoxxx]

Yeah, I kind of view the Spurs subreddit as the general consensus of casual Spurs fans, and they seem to think Devin is a good defender and then get super defensive when you point out that he is in fact a quite horrible defender.

Well even on here the general consensus was Vassell was a good defender while Keldon Johnson was awful. I think the can use draft help almost anywhere you look if/when we churn this roster some. Which we obviously need to.

edit: Vassell was a good defender year before last. I first noticed the gripes about him not defending well enough a bit last year on here.

[DAF86]

Manu wasn't a franchise player. You weren't winning a NBA championship with Manu as your number 1, which are franchise players.

Yes you were, with the right team around.

[RC_Drunkford]

Good game from Devin tonight against Memphis.

Oh yeah, Spurs lose, Devin pumps in a team worst -17 :lol

Castle was second worse with -14 but had 26 points. Devin actually outplayed Bane's stat line, but y'all keep going with your agenda

[KingKev]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10150805-whos-really-untouchable-for-every-team-ahead-of-2025-nba-trade-deadline

BR has DV labelled as “untouchable”

Not the brightest bunch over there but their rhetoric mirrors this community for the most part.

I should have qualified this with the majority who saw/still see DV as near untouchable are probably right in that PATFO have him marked as untouchable just think it is actual lunacy if true.

[rascal]

I should have qualified this with the majority who saw/still see DV as near untouchable are probably right in that PATFO have him marked as untouchable just think it is actual lunacy if true.

Spurs have most of this core as untouchable.

[scott]

Castle was second worse with -14 but had 26 points. Devin actually outplayed Bane's stat line, but y'all keep going with your agenda

It's almost like these two guys playing these types of game isn't conducive to winning

When is the Trophy Ceremony for Vassell's Statline victory over Bane?

[mystargtr34]

You would think that NBA Front Offices watch more basketball that the dopes who write these articles... but it's debatable sometimes.

If this is the opinion of Devin, then maybe Brian Wright can work his seller's magic and get us a couple of FRPs we can use to trade for an actual good player.

The problem is B Wright is the guy reading those articles and buying the Devin hype 😂

[RC_Drunkford]

(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)Devin Vassell ranked at #72 of top 100 NBA players. Wemby #6 CP3 #99


https://nbarankings.theringer.com/ (https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)
(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)

[z0sa]

Enough is enough yo.

DV is capable of doing tons of damage without a lot of time with the ball in his hands.

A guy like Castle needs to dribble to get his shot at the moment.

We get a guy like Fox, who attempts nearly 30% of his field goals after 7+ dribbles and nearly 60% of his FG after at least 3 dribbles will definitely take most of those opportunities away from Castle.

For comparison, DV shoots 35% of his field goals - by far his highest % of shots WRT dribbles by some 12 points - on ZERO dribbles.

Vassell is likely not our 2nd option of the future, okay, we get it. But you trade him for someone who needs the ball constantly IE most any all-star out there, you're just going to run the treadmill because guys like Castle WILL NOT get the extra touches - quite the opposite. I don't care about +/-. To me, it's clear Vassell is untouchable because he's a guy who finishes plays as his bread and butter. That's exactly what you want your 3rd option to be doing. If only Castle had an outside shot, or Point Sochan worked, or CP3 wasn't 40, etc etc.

Sauces: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628368/shots-dash

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630170/shots-dash?SeasonType=Regular+Season

[scott]

The problem is B Wright is the guy reading those articles and buying the Devin hype 

Scene: Brian Wright waking up in an Eastern European opium den, logs onto the Ringer and reads this article. Wakes RC up from his drunken slumber: "Hey RC, did you know we have a top 100 player in Devin Vassell!"

[scott]

(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)Devin Vassell ranked at #72 of top 100 NBA players. Wemby #6 CP3 #99


https://nbarankings.theringer.com/ (https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)
(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)

From the article: "As he begins his second contract this season, Vassell has built a strong floor for his career as a quick, athletic 3-and-D wing with the potential for more."

Yep, sounds like these guys definitely have seen a lot of Devin Vassell tape :lol

[scott]

Enough is enough yo.

DV is capable of doing tons of damage without a lot of time with the ball in his hands.

A guy like Castle needs to dribble to get his shot at the moment.

We get a guy like Fox, who attempts nearly 30% of his field goals after 7+ dribbles and nearly 60% of his FG after at least 3 dribbles will definitely take most of those opportunities away from Castle.

For comparison, DV shoots 35% of his field goals - by far his highest % of shots WRT dribbles by some 12 points - on ZERO dribbles.

Vassell is likely not our 2nd option of the future, okay, we get it. But you trade him for someone who needs the ball constantly IE most any all-star out there, you're just going to run the treadmill because guys like Castle WILL NOT get the extra touches - quite the opposite. I don't care about +/-. To me, it's clear Vassell is untouchable because he's a guy who finishes plays as his bread and butter. That's exactly what you want your 3rd option to be doing. If only Castle had an outside shot, or Point Sochan worked, or CP3 wasn't 40, etc etc.

Sauces: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628368/shots-dash

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630170/shots-dash?SeasonType=Regular+Season

This is good stuff, and I appreciate it.

I've repeatedly said (as have others) Devin is at his best as a 3rd or 4th option who isn't playing ISO ball and spending his time dribbling. I'm not sure Fox is an apt comparison, be he is a PG who plays in a completely different style of offense. But just looking at our team, I'd like to see Devin's offensive game develop somewhere inbetween where he is today and Champ, who takes 75% of his shots with 0 dribbles and 93% of his shots with less than 3 dribbles. Right now Devin is at 35% of his shots with 3 or more dribbles. I'd like to see that number get closer to 20-25%. He's also taking nearly 25% of his shots over 10 feet in tight or very tight coverage. Compare that to Fox (12%), Champ (10.5%) or someone like Desmond Bane (10.7%). Devin shots are more difficult than they should be (some of that is on Devin, and some of that may be on the lack of talent around him).

I don't want Devin to become a spot up shooter like Champ, but I do want to see his offense become a bit more centered around off-the-ball movement and quick offense. Most of the time, there is no reason for Devin to dribble the ball more than 3 times to create a shot.

I will strongly disagree about +/-. It's not a perfect catch all stat, and it's also not that helpful of a stat when everyone on the team is all negatives (because your team is really bad) or all positive (because your team is really good), but when it has a polarity against others on the team, it's quite telling. After all, the only stat that matters at the end of the game is whether you have more points than the other team. If you pump in great individual stats, but your team loses points when you are on the floor... then you aren't contributing to winning.

[baseline bum]

Well even on here the general consensus was Vassell was a good defender while Keldon Johnson was awful. I think the can use draft help almost anywhere you look if/when we churn this roster some. Which we obviously need to.

edit: Vassell was a good defender year before last. I first noticed the gripes about him not defending well enough a bit last year on here.

Vassell was the one half decent non-Wemby defender the first 25-30 games last year but then fell off a cliff and has stayed at the bottom of it since.

[spurraider21]

vassell has shown a reasonable ability to get to and finish at the rim. while julian has made some strides when it comes to beating closeouts, vassell is much better at that part of the game. i have no issue with vassell putting the ball on the floor to make something happen, but he cant become a ballstopper

[Splits]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht672-wYelc

[ambchang]

This is good stuff, and I appreciate it.

I've repeatedly said (as have others) Devin is at his best as a 3rd or 4th option who isn't playing ISO ball and spending his time dribbling. I'm not sure Fox is an apt comparison, be he is a PG who plays in a completely different style of offense. But just looking at our team, I'd like to see Devin's offensive game develop somewhere inbetween where he is today and Champ, who takes 75% of his shots with 0 dribbles and 93% of his shots with less than 3 dribbles. Right now Devin is at 35% of his shots with 3 or more dribbles. I'd like to see that number get closer to 20-25%. He's also taking nearly 25% of his shots over 10 feet in tight or very tight coverage. Compare that to Fox (12%), Champ (10.5%) or someone like Desmond Bane (10.7%). Devin shots are more difficult than they should be (some of that is on Devin, and some of that may be on the lack of talent around him).

I don't want Devin to become a spot up shooter like Champ, but I do want to see his offense become a bit more centered around off-the-ball movement and quick offense. Most of the time, there is no reason for Devin to dribble the ball more than 3 times to create a shot.

I will strongly disagree about +/-. It's not a perfect catch all stat, and it's also not that helpful of a stat when everyone on the team is all negatives (because your team is really bad) or all positive (because your team is really good), but when it has a polarity against others on the team, it's quite telling. After all, the only stat that matters at the end of the game is whether you have more points than the other team. If you pump in great individual stats, but your team loses points when you are on the floor... then you aren't contributing to winning.

So you want Vassell to play like prime klay or reggie? It would be great if he can model himself after that.

At this point it’s not really his offence I’m worried about, it’s his total lack of defence that’s killing me. At least keldon tries, Vassell doesn’t even do that.

[Slippy]

Manu wasn't a franchise player. You weren't winning a NBA championship with Manu as your number 1, which are franchise players.

Hahaha. We've been through this long time before. Manu should be classed a franchise player that accepted his role off the bench for the spurs.. Thats why its a unfair comparison to Dev .

Manu has carried multiple teams on his back consistently. Thats what franchise players do.

[Slippy]

That said. The type of Game Manu lays on the court . Would he last a whole nba season as the number 1. Doubt it.

[KobesAchilles]

That said. The type of Game Manu lays on the court . Would he last a whole nba season as the number 1. Doubt it.
For me, there has been about 15 franchise guys in nba history and Manu isn’t one of them. But he was a hell of a player all the same. Top 5 SG

[Raven]

not sure what kind of problem does the spurs community has with devin.. he's been pretty darn good, consistently.

[ambchang]

For me, there has been about 15 franchise guys in nba history and Manu isn’t one of them. But he was a hell of a player all the same. Top 5 SG

15? That’s a pretty short list.

Jordan
LeBron
KAJ
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic?
Bird
Jokic
Giannis
Dirk
Moses
Kobe
Wade?
Wilt
Russell?
Mikan?
Isiah
Currry
Durant?

Not challenging you, but wondering if the following players would be considered franchise guys, I know some of them never rung but most would put them as franchise guys:
Barkley
KG
Ewing
Malone
Stockton
Robinson
David Thompson
Dr J
Bernard king
Stevie franchise (just because of the name)
AI
Tmac
Jason Kidd
Pre injury grant hill and penny
Nash
Nique

I would say those are franchise guys myself.

And yes, I don’t consider Manu a franchise guy, but he’s my second favourite of all time though.

[KobesAchilles]

15? That’s a pretty short list.

Jordan
LeBron
KAJ
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic?
Bird
Jokic
Giannis
Dirk
Moses
Kobe
Wade?
Wilt
Russell?
Mikan?
Isiah
Currry
Durant?

Not challenging you, but wondering if the following players would be considered franchise guys, I know some of them never rung but most would put them as franchise guys:
Barkley
KG
Ewing
Malone
Stockton
Robinson
David Thompson
Dr J
Bernard king
Stevie franchise (just because of the name)
AI
Tmac
Jason Kidd
Pre injury grant hill and penny
Nash
Nique

I would say those are franchise guys myself.

And yes, I don’t consider Manu a franchise guy, but he’s my second favourite of all time though.
There are tiers to me when it comes to that kind of stuff. For instance, to me a franchise player means you lead a team to multiple titles or have one dominant title run while contending for numerous years.

Everything just below that. The Ewings, the Malones, Robinson, Wade,Barkley, KD, IT, Kobe,KG- these are players that are all time greats. Top 15-30 all time. They aren’t just mere all stars. They are clearly above that as they have won MVPs and had numerous years as contenders. But they aren’t franchise players either. Guys you just put on any franchise and they just win. I don’t have a name for these players and plenty of people just group them as franchise players. Maybe I should just come up with a name for them? Idk.

But Tim Duncan could’ve played for the Grizzlies and won a title. Malone would’ve still ended up short. There’s a difference between the two and I don’t think they belong in the same tier.

Russell
Wilt
KAJ
Moses
Bird
Magic
Dr J
Logo
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Steph
Jokic
lebron
Dirk
Maybe Giannis ( he’s kinda like Robinson to me where his flaws just undo his team in the playoffs and his teammates shit the bed as well but he has a title but if you take away the title what has he really done)

[scott]

not sure what kind of problem does the spurs community has with devin.. he's been pretty darn good, consistently.

The problem is that he actually hasn’t been that good, and certainly hasn’t been consistent. The only thing he’s consistent at is being inconsistent.

Here’s his game by game Game Score since coming back from missing the game against SAC on 12/6:

3.8
15.1
-2.9
19.0
7.4
10.9
6.4
9.2
20.3
5.0
16.8
11.3
8.0
3.8
18.6
16.7

10 is considered an average performance. He’s been below average in half of those games. Neither good, or consistent.

[Raven]

The problem is that he actually hasn’t been that good, and certainly hasn’t been consistent. The only thing he’s consistent at is being inconsistent.

Here’s his game by game Game Score since coming back from missing the game against SAC on 12/6:

3.8
15.1
-2.9
19.0
7.4
10.9
6.4
9.2
20.3
5.0
16.8
11.3
8.0
3.8
18.6
16.7

10 is considered an average performance. He’s been below average in half of those games. Neither good, or consistent.

wtf is game score lol

[scott]

wtf is game score lol

It’s just a shorthand metric used to give a quick numerical estimation of how good (or bad) a player performed. Kind of how Soccer has game ratings, but this is done using an objective calculation. It’s not a perfect stat by any means, but it is a quick and easy way to put a players counting stats into one metric.

Here is how it is calculated:




GmSc - Game Score; the formula is PTS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#pts) + 0.4 * FG (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fg) - 0.7 * FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fga) - 0.4*(FTA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fta) - FT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#ft)) + 0.7 * ORB (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#orb) + 0.3 * DRB (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#drb) + STL (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#stl) + 0.7 * AST (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#ast) + 0.7 * BLK (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#blk) - 0.4 * PF (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#pf) - TOV (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#tov). Game Score was created by John Hollinger (http://sports.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=John_Hollinger) to give a rough measure of a player's productivity for a single game. The scale is similar to that of points scored, (40 is an outstanding performance, 10 is an average performance, etc.).

The problem is that, like with all counting stats, it simply ignores any non-box score impact a player had on the game.

But to say a player is “good” and “consistent” we need something by which to measure that claim against.

[ismael-robert]

There are tiers to me when it comes to that kind of stuff. For instance, to me a franchise player means you lead a team to multiple titles or have one dominant title run while contending for numerous years.

Everything just below that. The Ewings, the Malones, Robinson, Wade,Barkley, KD, IT, Kobe,KG- these are players that are all time greats. Top 15-30 all time. They aren’t just mere all stars. They are clearly above that as they have won MVPs and had numerous years as contenders. But they aren’t franchise players either. Guys you just put on any franchise and they just win. I don’t have a name for these players and plenty of people just group them as franchise players. Maybe I should just come up with a name for them? Idk.

But Tim Duncan could’ve played for the Grizzlies and won a title. Malone would’ve still ended up short. There’s a difference between the two and I don’t think they belong in the same tier.

Russell
Wilt
KAJ
Moses
Bird
Magic
Dr J
Logo
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Steph
Jokic
lebron
Dirk
Maybe Giannis ( he’s kinda like Robinson to me where his flaws just undo his team in the playoffs and his teammates shit the bed as well but he has a title but if you take away the title what has he really done)

Or maybe stop being dense and call them what tons of people who know more than u call them...what do you think a franchise is or means...its a team! So when a player is a teams best player and remains their best player long enough that they're trying to build around them...by definition that's a franchise player!

[Raven]

It’s just a shorthand metric used to give a quick numerical estimation of how good (or bad) a player performed. Kind of how Soccer has game ratings, but this is done using an objective calculation. It’s not a perfect stat by any means, but it is a quick and easy way to put a players counting stats into one metric.

Here is how it is calculated:



The problem is that, like with all counting stats, it simply ignores any non-box score impact a player had on the game.

But to say a player is “good” and “consistent” we need something by which to measure that claim against.
[/LIST]

thanks for explaining.. i do remember this stat now that you mentioned Hollinger, didn't know people still took it seriously. It is wrong however to call it a stat, it is a function.

[RC_Drunkford]

This is good stuff, and I appreciate it.

I've repeatedly said (as have others) Devin is at his best as a 3rd or 4th option who isn't playing ISO ball and spending his time dribbling. I'm not sure Fox is an apt comparison, be he is a PG who plays in a completely different style of offense. But just looking at our team, I'd like to see Devin's offensive game develop somewhere inbetween where he is today and Champ, who takes 75% of his shots with 0 dribbles and 93% of his shots with less than 3 dribbles. Right now Devin is at 35% of his shots with 3 or more dribbles. I'd like to see that number get closer to 20-25%. He's also taking nearly 25% of his shots over 10 feet in tight or very tight coverage. Compare that to Fox (12%), Champ (10.5%) or someone like Desmond Bane (10.7%). Devin shots are more difficult than they should be (some of that is on Devin, and some of that may be on the lack of talent around him).

I don't want Devin to become a spot up shooter like Champ, but I do want to see his offense become a bit more centered around off-the-ball movement and quick offense. Most of the time, there is no reason for Devin to dribble the ball more than 3 times to create a shot.

I will strongly disagree about +/-. It's not a perfect catch all stat, and it's also not that helpful of a stat when everyone on the team is all negatives (because your team is really bad) or all positive (because your team is really good), but when it has a polarity against others on the team, it's quite telling. After all, the only stat that matters at the end of the game is whether you have more points than the other team. If you pump in great individual stats, but your team loses points when you are on the floor... then you aren't contributing to winning.

I agree that he should become more of an offball player, but the iso thing is by design cause our team sucks. It ain't his fault that the coaching staff wants him to do more than he's currently capable off. I always said we need speed at the 1 and that would really open up Vassell's game.

The funny thing is that if you look at his +/- since he became a starter (since you like to bring +/- up frequently), he's only a -1.8 while shooting horrible percentages.

[stnick2261]

(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)Devin Vassell ranked at #72 of top 100 NBA players. Wemby #6 CP3 #99


https://nbarankings.theringer.com/ (https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)
(https://nbarankings.theringer.com/)

Seems accurate to me. If players 1-30 would be a team's #1 option, 31-60 a team's #2 option, and 61-90 a team's #3 option... then Vassell would be a decent #3 option for us and we still need that #2 guy.

I was happy with him as our draft selection. He seemed like an elite-role player at a time before we decided to tank. What I really liked was that (in college) he averaged above 1 in every stat except turnovers. He just did a little bit of everything and played within himself. But then we emptied the team and he was our #1 option by default and was asked to do too much. If we can get that #2 and Vassell can go back to playing within himself, I still think he can fit on the team.

[scott]

I agree that he should become more of an offball player, but the iso thing is by design cause our team sucks. It ain't his fault that the coaching staff wants him to do more than he's currently capable off. I always said we need speed at the 1 and that would really open up Vassell's game.

The funny thing is that if you look at his +/- since he became a starter (since you like to bring +/- up frequently), he's only a -1.8 while shooting horrible percentages.

He's -1.8 *per game* since he entered the starting lineup (December 19), but that's second worst on the team. In fact, only 3 guys who are in the regular rotation have a negative +/- over that span: Keldon (-1), Devin (-23), Bassey (-43). Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make on his behalf here. That our highest paid player in team history is better than our 3rd string center on a min deal?

I will give you your first point though. I'm on the side that Vassell was a very fine draft pick, we've just failed to fully optimize his development and have put him in a situation that doesn't foster optimizing that development. This is the problem with the tanking. You got guys like Keldon and Vassell who spent their prime developmental years in a tanking environment, encouraged to play hero chuckball. It's hard (and this isn't their fault) to just switch away from that. You usually have to completely overturn the roster after you are done tanking, but the Spurs have chosen to go down a path where they are hoping to convert their tank commanders into winning players. That usually requires a change of scenery. Maybe the Spurs can buck that trend, but it's not looking great so far.

[scott]

thanks for explaining.. i do remember this stat now that you mentioned Hollinger, didn't know people still took it seriously. It is wrong however to call it a stat, it is a function.

How do you propose we evaluate whether he has been "pretty darn good, consistently"? What other game-by-game stat/function/metric/rubric/equation/algorithm do you feel would be a better gauge? Picking the metric to debunk that's "pretty darn good" is easy. We can just look at CraftedPlusMinus (37th percentile player), or LEBRON (45th percentile player), or DARKO DPM (40th percentile player). Sounds pretty mid, at best.

How do you want to measure "consistently?

Sounds like you have extremely low standards.

[z0sa]

This is good stuff, and I appreciate it.

Stats and math period haven't ever been my strong suit, but gotta bring it to hang with the likes of you, my dude. :tu


I've repeatedly said (as have others) Devin is at his best as a 3rd or 4th option who isn't playing ISO ball and spending his time dribbling. I'm not sure Fox is an apt comparison, be he is a PG who plays in a completely different style of offense. But just looking at our team, I'd like to see Devin's offensive game develop somewhere inbetween where he is today and Champ, who takes 75% of his shots with 0 dribbles and 93% of his shots with less than 3 dribbles. Right now Devin is at 35% of his shots with 3 or more dribbles. I'd like to see that number get closer to 20-25%. He's also taking nearly 25% of his shots over 10 feet in tight or very tight coverage. Compare that to Fox (12%), Champ (10.5%) or someone like Desmond Bane (10.7%). Devin shots are more difficult than they should be (some of that is on Devin, and some of that may be on the lack of talent around him).

I don't want Devin to become a spot up shooter like Champ, but I do want to see his offense become a bit more centered around off-the-ball movement and quick offense. Most of the time, there is no reason for Devin to dribble the ball more than 3 times to create a shot.

I agree - to an extent and tentatively.

But I'm more pre-disposed to thinking that Dev has had this type of role both encouraged and relatively forced upon him. Guys like CP3 and even Barnes, Sochan, et al can't create their offense possession after possession (at least anymore). Devin is basically being asked to be a creator that he really isn't. He's got limitations, and he wasn't able to use this off-season to expand them or at least improve where he's best.

Things that piss me off about Devin usually don't directly involve Devin is my point. You rarely see the coaching staff - even with Mitch in control - doing things like running him off Reggie/Klay/Rip style baseline or backscreens, for instance. Instead, it's always some type of dribble hand-off at the wing or top of the 3 point line expecting him to do something with it. He should be a guy who we repeatedly run off screens to tire people out. When he's not injured, they basically don't limit his minutes in a meaningful way, so they must trust his conditioning (the coaches, that is). They should be using that as a weapon in a more efficient manner, basically.

When you give him the ball at the top of the key asking to create, it's already stacking the odds against a favorable outcome. He should be Rip 2.0 and they want him to fill more of a Manu-type role. Just ain't happenin'. That's not DV's fault, really. I think, in a vacuum, that's also why his +/- is so bad. When Wemby goes to the bench, they run the offense through him as a ball-handler for 3-4 minutes straight at times and that's where we run into trouble.



I will strongly disagree about +/-. It's not a perfect catch all stat, and it's also not that helpful of a stat when everyone on the team is all negatives (because your team is really bad) or all positive (because your team is really good), but when it has a polarity against others on the team, it's quite telling. After all, the only stat that matters at the end of the game is whether you have more points than the other team. If you pump in great individual stats, but your team loses points when you are on the floor... then you aren't contributing to winning.

Well, I always like to remember the +/- king Matt Bonner. Not exactly the most effective player, but for some reason, having that stretch "5" next to Timmy paid dividends. Yet, Bonner barely passed the eye test for such eye-popping plus minus #s. Long story short, I think it's a reflection of how basketball is a team sport and even moreso, a game of runs that tends to be won in the first half or even first quarter on some nights. Castle had a career game basically (considering the competition) and was -14 two nights ago vs MEM. There's no way I see his stat line and what he did in the 4th and think he was a net negative.

[scott]

Stats and math period haven't ever been my strong suit, but gotta bring it to hang with the likes of you, my dude. :tu



I agree - to an extent and tentatively.

But I'm more pre-disposed to thinking that Dev has had this type of role both encouraged and relatively forced upon him. Guys like CP3 and even Barnes, Sochan, et al can't create their offense possession after possession (at least anymore). Devin is basically being asked to be a creator that he really isn't. He's got limitations, and he wasn't able to use this off-season to expand them or at least improve where he's best.

Things that piss me off about Devin usually don't directly involve Devin is my point. You rarely see the coaching staff - even with Mitch in control - doing things like running him off Reggie/Klay/Rip style baseline or backscreens, for instance. Instead, it's always some type of dribble hand-off at the wing or top of the 3 point line expecting him to do something with it. He should be a guy who we repeatedly run off screens to tire people out. When he's not injured, they basically don't limit his minutes in a meaningful way, so they must trust his conditioning (the coaches, that is). They should be using that as a weapon in a more efficient manner, basically.

When you give him the ball at the top of the key asking to create, it's already stacking the odds against a favorable outcome. He should be Rip 2.0 and they want him to fill more of a Manu-type role. Just ain't happenin'. That's not DV's fault, really. I think, in a vacuum, that's also why his +/- is so bad. When Wemby goes to the bench, they run the offense through him as a ball-handler for 3-4 minutes straight at times and that's where we run into trouble.




Well, I always like to remember the +/- king Matt Bonner. Not exactly the most effective player, but for some reason, having that stretch "5" next to Timmy paid dividends. Yet, Bonner barely passed the eye test for such eye-popping plus minus #s. Long story short, I think it's a reflection of how basketball is a team sport and even moreso, a game of runs that tends to be won in the first half or even first quarter on some nights. Castle had a career game basically (considering the competition) and was -14 two nights ago vs MEM. There's no way I see his stat line and what he did in the 4th and think he was a net negative.

I agree with your middle section that it's not necessarily all Devin's fault. As RC_Drunkford has correctly pointed out, and as you do here, this is the game plan that the team has put forth and the position they've put Devin in, and in no small part as a function of the roster that the FO has constructed. There just really isn't anyone else to give the ball to in those situations. In a lot of ways I feel bad for Devin - he didn't necessarily choose to be put in this position (though he clearly idolizes Kobe, so maybe he relishes this role), but it's going to be really hard to break out of this mold (either for the Spurs or elsewhere) and it will probably result in him just being a career tank commander chucker. At least he'll be rich.

As for +/-, I actually look at the MEM game and Castle's +/- as a pretty fair reflection of what the expected outcome of a game like that from Castle would be. Yes, he pumped in a career high 26... but it was a very inefficient 26 points and not in the style of play that is conducive to our winning. This isn't Castle's fault per se, but rather a credit to MEM's game plan and an indictment of Mitch's inability to adapt. Castle kept us in the game with his scoring as long as he could... but when we play like that, we're probably going to lose. Most of Castle's points came in the second half, which is when we got destroyed. Basically, we played right into MEM's plan. If Castle pumped in 26 on 9/13 shooting instead of 9/21 it would have been another story.

I know +/- isn't perfect, but sometimes there is no need to overthink it, especially when considered with core players. Role players like Bonner (and my man Bassey last year) get sucked into artificially high +/- numbers that can and should be discounted, but when the guy who is second on the team in MPG (like Vassell is since he returned to the starting lineup) is second worst on the team in +/- (like Vassell is since he returned to the starting lineup), I think there is clear signal there.

[LeBowen]

As for +/-, I actually look at the MEM game and Castle's +/- as a pretty fair reflection of what the expected outcome of a game like that from Castle would be. Yes, he pumped in a career high 26... but it was a very inefficient 26 points and not in the style of play that is conducive to our winning. This isn't Castle's fault per se, but rather a credit to MEM's game plan and an indictment of Mitch's inability to adapt. Castle kept us in the game with his scoring as long as he could... but when we play like that, we're probably going to lose. Most of Castle's points came in the second half, which is when we got destroyed. Basically, we played right into MEM's plan. If Castle pumped in 26 on 9/13 shooting instead of 9/21 it would have been another story.

I think you're overthinking it.
It was a case of a clearly better team half-assing it in the first half, then realizing they need to lock in for the second half if they're to win the game.

Yeah, offense could've been better in the second half, but defense was the issue.
Memphis scored 43 in third quarter and 35 in fourth.
It's not Castle's fault Wemby went 3-12 in second half.
If we hadn't allowed 88 points in the second half, it would've been a close game.

As I wrote in game thread, for me the issue is that we played the same sets and completely ignored the mismatches.
Castle is a bad shooter, but there was no reason not to tell him to attack Edey over and over again because he can easily beat him to the rim.
Instead we had Edey sag off Castle while we were running some bs pindown screens for Devin and Barnes.

[KobesAchilles]

Or maybe stop being dense and call them what tons of people who know more than u call them...what do you think a franchise is or means...its a team! So when a player is a teams best player and remains their best player long enough that they're trying to build around them...by definition that's a franchise player!
Geeze somebody woke up in a bad mood. This place is to discuss differing ideas and opinions about basketball. And I was just hit with the dreaded “think exactly how everyone else thinks” mindset. I have an issue with saying Lillard is a franchise player or Sharif Abdul Raheem. I mean Chris Bosh and Kevin Love are franchise players to you but they aren’t to me.

Funny thing about this place is I constantly hear how wrong I am about stuff only to wait awhile and suddenly most people with me.

[scott]

I think you're overthinking it.
It was a case of a clearly better team half-assing it in the first half, then realizing they need to lock in for the second half if they're to win the game.

Yeah, offense could've been better in the second half, but defense was the issue.
Memphis scored 43 in third quarter and 35 in fourth.
It's not Castle's fault Wemby went 3-12 in second half.
If we hadn't allowed 88 points in the second half, it would've been a close game.

As I wrote in game thread, for me the issue is that we played the same sets and completely ignored the mismatches.
Castle is a bad shooter, but there was no reason not to tell him to attack Edey over and over again because he can easily beat him to the rim.
Instead we had Edey sag off Castle while we were running some bs pindown screens for Devin and Barnes.

Yes... MEM turned it on in the second half and part of that was gameplan. Part of that gameplan was shutting down Wemby (successful) and letting Castle be the guy who scored (successful). The result, huge victory. It's the same when you play MIN, your gameplan is to let Julius Randle go off and shut down everyone else.

Edey didn't even play after he was subbed off at the 6min mark in the 3Q, and that's when Castle started scoring (he only had 9 points at that point). As you state, Castle wasn't attacking Edey at all. Had he done that, he might have had a more efficient night. You've pretty much just hammed down the point that Castle's 26 points and his -14 aren't at all inconsistent. We didn't have Castle attacking Edey, we ran pindowns instead. Then MEM turned it on and decided stopping Castle wasn't high on their priority list. Turns out, great choice by them.

[LeBowen]

Yes... MEM turned it on in the second half and part of that was gameplan. Part of that gameplan was shutting down Wemby (successful) and letting Castle be the guy who scored (successful). The result, huge victory. It's the same when you play MIN, your gameplan is to let Julius Randle go off and shut down everyone else.

Edey didn't even play after he was subbed off at the 6min mark in the 3Q, and that's when Castle started scoring (he only had 9 points at that point). As you state, Castle wasn't attacking Edey at all. Had he done that, he might have had a more efficient night. You've pretty much just hammed down the point that Castle's 26 points and his -14 aren't at all inconsistent. We didn't have Castle attacking Edey, we ran pindowns instead. Then MEM turned it on and decided stopping Castle wasn't high on their priority list. Turns out, great choice by them.

The issue is that other than Wemby, noone on the team is worth stopping.
Devin could go off, but unlikely to hapapen at this point.
Anything other than Champagnie shooting like 70% from 3pt on high volume and we're useless without Wemby scoring 25+, we can only beat good teams in low scoring games.
Not counting OT against the Hawks, we won 1 game against non-tanking teams when they score more than 110, it was that game in Sacramento when they were down bad.

We're allowing just 102ppg in wins, OKC has the best DEFRTG at 103ppg.
Allowing 117ppg in losses, Wizards are at 118 as the worst defensive team in the league.

Since we obviously don't have enough firepower, the only way to win games against good teams is playing the best defense we can.

[scott]

The issue is that other than Wemby, noone on the team is worth stopping.


Yes, that's exactly my point. We shouldn't get overly excited about our guys putting up low-efficiency high scoring games because that's exactly what other teams want. It's no coincidence that high scoring games from Vassell and Castle are equally as likely to come with a negative +/- as they are a positive +/-

For example

With Vassell, of the 8 games this season where he has scored over 20 points, 4 have a negative +/-

With Castle, of the 5 games where he has scored over 20 points, 4 have a negative +/-

Compare that to Wemby, he has 24 games where he has scored 20 or more points, and only 7 of them have a negative +/-. Meanwhile, of the 9 games where Wemby has scored less than 20, 8 of them he has a negative +/-.

What does all of this tell us? The Spurs usually win Wemby minutes when Wemby scores, and usually lose Wemby minutes when Wemby doesn't score. But Vassell or Castle being scorers doesn't really correlate to winning or losing those minutes. Basically, the old adage comes true: shut down the opposing team's star and let the other guys beat you.

This isn't even Devin or Castle's fault... like you said, there is just no one else worth stopping.

Hopefully the FO notices this and sees it as a clear sign that we need a #2 (which most of us can already see).

[ambchang]

That’s unfair to bassry though. He subs for wemby so of course his +/- is the worst on the team.